Residents' Association contributions

Lantus

Sleeper12 wrote:

You can publish what you want so long as it is true. So residents association isn't breaking any law there.

Sleeper12 wrote:

As far the new legislation is concerned again no law has been broken. Op has to right to see all of their data and then can request full deletion of the data. They are his /her rights. Residents association does not automatically have to delete the data. Most data they will be entitled to keep for revenue porpoises.

Sleeper12 wrote:

Too much of a claim society going on in Ireland at the moment unfortunately.

Sleeper12 wrote:

Answer to the op question : No its not illegal

This is nonsense. An ra does not generally require any data for revenue. They don't even need keep accounts although they should. Its a voluntary body with no real legal standing.

You cannot publish anything you want on the basis of it being true.

It's not an individual issue but the mass publishing of multiple people together with financial data linked to an address.

Please read up on this because this is dangerous and woefully inaccurate advice you are peddling.

by8auj6csd3ioq

[quoteThis is confusing. On one hand you are utterly convinced of your entitlement to enjoy the common areas of the estate being kept in good order whilst feeling no obligation whatsoever to share the expense with your neighbors.
Your quite clear that you feel the financial contribution should be optional (it is, legally and technically), and you’ve made the choice not to contribute.
But if your so sure of your position then why are you so upset at the idea of your neighbors knowing that you’ve taken the option not to contribute?[/quote] I made no such comments and do not live in an estate. i made no comment about myu situation You are confused cos you did not read what i wrote .I am just commenting on the principles.No one has any right to demand a payment that is not due. I do know of one case where someone i know was hassled by arrogant people who thought they were entitled to a payment 'due' which was not due. RA people who publish names of those who paid and so by definition of those who did nor do it as a form of bullying. That is what i commented on

I was also commenting on the principle of data protection. So read it again slowly

The ra people can only insult anyone who disagrees with them aided and abetted by thanks whores lining up lol

Sleeper12

Tigerandahalf wrote:

It begs the question as well as to who actually owns the green areas in new estates.

Management companies or local county councils.

My house was built in 1964 so we are definitely 100 percent DCC. DCC cut the grass once a month or so during the summer and that's fine. We have resident associations that go the extra mile. When I was a kid dcc had guys sweeping the road and footpath at least once a week. Remember the guy in bib overalls pushing the red cart /wheelbarrow? His job doesn't exist anymore. Residents (mostly oaps) do this work now. Our local business association donate flowers, plants, brushes etc. If the local business association won't help out then resident association or tidy town committees need to collect door to door

If the area you live in has flower boxes, hanging baskets etc then someone is paying for them

Sleeper12

Lantus wrote:

This is nonsense. An ra does not generally require any data for revenue. They don't even need keep accounts although they should. Its a voluntary body with no real legal standing.

Resident associations need to be keep accounts. They need to keep track of money coming in and out. Revenue require this from resident association too. If there is ever an inspection they have to prove they never made a profit. Money laundering laws require that proper accounts are kept even for a resident association.

Lantus wrote:

You cannot publish anything you want on the basis of it being true.

Yes you can publish anything so long as it is true. Please point out any legislation saying otherwise. We do it every day here on boards.ie and other social media sites. If it is true how can you be sued? On what grounds? We are allowed to publish the truth in Ireland. You'll only ever have problems if it's not the truth or factual. I'd like to point out that newspapers have been doing this for hundreds of years. The new data laws don't effect printing of the truth.

I can publish your name & address on my website without breaking any law. You have a right to request for me to remove it but no law is broken with me publishing it in the first place.

So many know that we have data protection but don't actually understand what it is

Lantus

Sleeper12 wrote:

Resident associations need to be keep accounts. They need to keep track of money coming in and out. Revenue require this from resident association too. If there is ever an inspection they have to prove they never made a profit. Money laundering laws require that proper accounts are kept even for a resident association.

They should keep accounts. As they are not companies and only exist at a local level if at all publicised I'd be curious to know how revenue would even know such an organisation even existed to warrant these inspections you mention.

The only legal aspect of an ra is the bank account if they even have one, many smaller ones won't.

So do you have examples of inspections by revenue or fines and penalties imposed? I can't imagine it being something anybody wanted to do again if revenue ever did investigate.

Tigerandahalf

But how can the residents' association keep accounts if they are not a defined organisation.

Do people in these residents' associations become members and appoint a secretary and a treasurer or what way do they work.
They are not a company or a charity so what actual status and obligations do they have to file accounts etc.

Some seem to hold yearly meetings and decide fees but it is probably more on an adhoc basis.

by8auj6csd3ioq

Want to be silly to give money to any organisation not keeping accounts. How to know if you are not funding a trip to the pub

Sleeper12

Tigerandahalf wrote:

But how can the residents' association keep accounts if they are not a defined organisation.

Tigerandahalf wrote:

Do people in these residents' associations become members and appoint a secretary and a treasurer or what way do they work. They are not a company or a charity so what actual status and obligations do they have to file accounts etc.

For it to be an association they will have a committee, treasurer, secretary, chairman etc. They must keep accounts & records the same way your local GAA club keeps records.

Tigerandahalf

Clark Millions Flesh wrote: »

Want to be silly to give money to any organisation not keeping accounts. How to know if you are not funding a trip to the pub

It is a difficult one. I know a relation living in an estate with a RA and one of the people living there cuts the grass. It is mostly elderly people. There is always a bit of tension though with some people wanting trees trimmed in the green areas and others wanting them to grow out.

Many estates might not be capable of handling a full mgt company.

Sleeper12

Lantus wrote:

They should keep accounts. As they are not companies and only exist at a local level if at all publicised I'd be curious to know how revenue would even know such an organisation even existed to warrant these inspections you mention.

The fact that revenue might never know of your existence does not excuse them of the requirement to keep accounts.

There are tradesmen who don't return anything what so ever to the revenue. Revenue may never find them but if they do they find them they are still required by law to keep accounts

Tigerandahalf

Sleeper12 wrote: »

For it to be an association they will have a committee, treasurer, secretary, chairman etc. They must keep accounts & records the same way your local GAA club keeps records.

Do GAA clubs have company or association status?

What is different about an association in terms of their responsibilities and powers?

Sleeper12

Tigerandahalf wrote:

Do GAA clubs have company or association status?

GAA, local karate club, local ping pong club are all required to keep accounts. Anywhere where money is collected is required to keep accounts. Charities, churches, your local bingo club all are required to keep accounts. They are also required to keep everyone's data connected to the accounts.

sexmag

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Resident associations need to be keep accounts. They need to keep track of money coming in and out. Revenue require this from resident association too. If there is ever an inspection they have to prove they never made a profit. Money laundering laws require that proper accounts are kept even for a resident association.




Yes you can publish anything so long as it is true. Please point out any legislation saying otherwise. We do it every day here on boards.ie and other social media sites. If it is true how can you be sued? On what grounds? We are allowed to publish the truth in Ireland. You'll only ever have problems if it's not the truth or factual. I'd like to point out that newspapers have been doing this for hundreds of years. The new data laws don't effect printing of the truth.

I can publish your name & address on my website without breaking any law. You have a right to request for me to remove it but no law is broken with me publishing it in the first place.

So many know that we have data protection but don't actually understand what it is

For the love of god read your last sentence and understand you are talking about yourself.

You can't publish data just because it's true, you need consent. This is the whole point of GDPR.

Personal data like your name and address cannot be published without your consent, whether it's true or not, ommitting someone's address from list of people who paid is indirectly identifying them. This would need to be challenged but I can see the data comissionor siding with the aggrieved persons who's data was printed (or not in this case) but you would certainly be fined for printing it on your site

So please stop talking out your a$$ before someone takes your advice and gets in serious trouble

Lantus

Tigerandahalf wrote:

Do people in these residents' associations become members and appoint a secretary and a treasurer or what way do they work. They are not a company or a charity so what actual status and obligations do they have to file accounts etc.

Many will appoint all sorts of positions to guidelines. There is no legal obligation to keep or file accounts but they 'should' keep them. The level of accounting can be highly variable and you may be pushed to get such accounts. I have known several people on committees that were refused access to the accounts because the chair and treasurer were not agreeable to it. Accounts at agms consisted of rambling numbers being read off bits of scrap paper. All attending were very happy. Nothing came of it. I'm sure it was all OK......

Lantus

Sleeper12 wrote:

GAA, local karate club, local ping pong club are all required to keep accounts. Anywhere where money is collected is required to keep accounts. Charities, churches, your local bingo club all are required to keep accounts. They are also required to keep everyone's data connected to the accounts.

Different. Those organisations generally rent premises and provides services in exchange for money. Have insurance policies, run very organised and highly visible events often with kid's. They are often registered businesses. An ra is not that! It's a very informal voluntary grouping do an activity like digging where they receive no payment and give no money for. Any money pays for the spade and seeds.

KaneToad

JustAThought wrote: »

I always think if its only about e20 or so a year be nice and pay it but ask for a receipt and the tally of how it was spent - that keep everything fair and mostly managable. After several years of donating e40 I stopped paying in my area when no receipt year after year was ever forthcoming and I learned that most people gave e20. When I saw for the second year in a row that 2k out of the annual e20 for about 300 houses was spent on a day long party and hiring marquees for the organisers to sell their tat and crafts in (not legal businesses) and the balance was spent on bottles of wine and bunches of flowers for the organisers I decided never to give to thise set of people again. Now and then I'll DO something and give time or get involved in a clear up or something I can do, but I'm not a bank for people to lush off and as the group apathy sets in and the fee (in addition to an annual management fee) keeps rising one has to ask where common sense stops and entitlement starts. We are not a poor area and buying every child in the area a present Christmas is,I feel, just a nonsense and a waste of others hard earned cash. We all have famikies and relations to buy for - why am I being asked to give a gift to every child in our private estate - Not a vincent de paul gift mind you - one for well healed children.

...

Very similar to a RA where I lived. Funds were used for a family day/ BBQ in the green. The day chosen didn't suit many and 4 weeks notice was given (a bit short in my opinion). There was copious amounts of steaks and an abundance of wine.

More than happy to pay for maintenance/gardening work but this was a bridge too far for me. I declined to pay a contribution after that.

anewme

JustAThought wrote: »

We are not a poor area and buying every child in the area a present Christmas is,I feel, just a nonsense and a waste of others hard earned cash. We all have famikies and relations to buy for - why am I being asked to give a gift to every child in our private estate - Not a vincent de paul gift mind you - one for well healed children.
.

Could see this being an issue alright.

Our area is very mixed... age wise and this would not work here as there are a fair few families with older kids, singles with no kids.

One girl does an Easter egg hunt for the kids...it’s brilliant to see on Easter Sunday morning but if you want your child to take part it’s a tenner per child.

by8auj6csd3ioq

I have no connection with Fingal just this on a random search

http://www.fingalcoco.ie/media/32 Page Residents Handbook FA.pdf

I would be more inclined to give money to an RA run like this so long as no one was embarrassed into donating

by8auj6csd3ioq

but some of them do not want the paperwork or responsibility of doing it right. They just want the money. The person who said you can print aything so long as it is true maybe confusing with defamation law

Sleeper12

I said it & I'm not confusing anything.

I can publish anything I want so long as it is fact. I can publish your name and address (if I knew it) on my own website & I'm not breaking any law. You have the right to ask me to delete it but no law stopping me publishing it in the first place.

OP hasn't been very clear in the whole story.

Did he /she join the association? Is his name used or just address?

Is it a list of every house in the estate with the houses that paid mentioned?

Everyone is assuming that it gives his name and address & says not paid but this is not what is said in the op



OP said the a notice came out saying who paid.

Again in answer to the op no it is not illegal. No laws have been broken

by8auj6csd3ioq

he said the newsletter thanks the people who paid. that indirectly identifies who did not. you cannot publish that. well you can if you want and if you are the ra then see what dpc says . wheter or not you could put my name on your site depends on the context. if you print my name and something defamatory there is a law stopping you publishing it in the first place. you get sued for defamation but that may not apply to you as other laws apparently don't . good luck with dpc if you do what the op says

scuby

People living in estates need to support their RA, if they are raising/using money to cut grass, keep the estate looking well.
This benefits residents, through house values when selling - no one will buy in a ****e looking estate ? U want friends coming around to a place looking shabby and crap !
The majority of RA'S are volunteers and people's attitude to wanting everything for nothing is stupid, realistically the council will not cut the grass, a few lads cutting a bit every now and again will not work. If u think the RA are corrupt, go to the AGM rather than than bitch about them down the pub.
If you rent, you still live there! Look after where you live, landlords can claim tax relief on fees.

Sleeper12

Clark Millions Flesh wrote:

he said the newsletter thanks the people who paid. that indirectly identifies who did not. you cannot publish that. well you can if you want and if you are the ra then see what dpc says . wheter or not you could put my name on your site depends on the context. if you print my name and something defamatory there is a law stopping you publishing it in the first place. you get sued for defamation but that may not apply to you as other laws apparently don't . good luck with dpc if you do what the op says

I'm sorry but you are posting ill informed rubbish.

Not by a long stretch of the imagination can posting who pays effect ops data rights.

Do you know I read bill Gates, Ted Turner and dozens of other billionaires donate hundreds of millions to charities every year. Holy God that means that they identify me as someone who doesn't donate. I'm going to sue them.

Posting a list of people who pay doesn't identify anyone who doesn't pay. Op could donate anonymously.

I hate to see the claim culture seeing a claim in everything

Lantus

scuby wrote:

People living in estates need to support their RA, if they are raising/using money to cut grass, keep the estate looking well. This benefits residents, through house values when selling - no one will buy in a ****e looking estate ? U want friends coming around to a place looking shabby and crap ! The majority of RA'S are volunteers and people's attitude to wanting everything for nothing is stupid, realistically the council will not cut the grass, a few lads cutting a bit every now and again will not work. If u think the RA are corrupt, go to the AGM rather than than bitch about them down the pub. If you rent, you still live there! Look after where you live, landlords can claim tax relief on fees.

I want everywhere to look good. I don't want people to feel shame or guilt into being forced to pay.

The system is flawed, not the people.

scuby

Lantus wrote:

The system is flawed, not the people.

What's the alternative ??
People can pay monthly to spread payments !

Tigerandahalf

It is easy to show who has or hasn't paid in an estate. You can give every paid house a sticker or ribbon to display on their door.

I can understand people not wanting to pay for the reasons mentioned above.
The situation is complicated further if you have renters in the house as it should be the landlord's responsibility to pay.

But then again there are no legal rights and obligations with these RAs it seems.

I read a document from Carlow Co Co and it lays out how to set up and run one. Accounts 'should' be held, audited and put in an end of year statement to the agm.

The problem is that you can't run a RA properly if it has no legal standing. It seems from reading here that local government has left estates to themselves to sort. Not a good situation.

Tigerandahalf

Here is the Carlow Co Co one.

It seems to say there that setting up social events is a valid objective - so a BBQ on the green could be more than valid if members agree to it.

Phoebas

I'd be very doubtful that a non paying resident would have a valid GDPR complaint by the RA publishing a list of paying residents, but the RA might be in breach by publishing the list of paying residents.

There are two areas of GDPR that the RA would need to consider:
1. Keep it only for one or more specified, explicit and lawful purposes.
2. Use and disclose it only in ways compatible with these purposes.

If I was running a RA, looking at these rules, I'd be seeking explicit consent to publish.

sillysocks

I’m involved in my local Residents Association, and like with a lot of things it’s often the people who have less money that are first to pay. Out of an estate of 250 houses we currently have 4 members on the committee. It’s a thankless job, calling to House after house trying to collect money each year, we set the fees at €50 to cover our contractor and I’d say approx half or 60% of houses only pay. Rented houses are definitely the worst for paying (understandably really as the landlord is anonymous really). We soley look after grass cutting, tree pruning etc (through a contractor), and don’t spend any money on fun days etc. Some houses would not be able to afford €50 and might offer €20/€30 which we would gratefully accept-although would feel guilty accepting if we know it is a stretch for them to afford. Once or twice we’ve tried to hand back contributions but the people won’t hear of it.

I suspect if we published a list of non payers our contributions would greatly increase but it’s not a road we are willing to go down.

Our contractor has insurance as do the association ourselves. Accounts are done every year.

Not all associations are run badly, and usually it is down to a couple of individuals (who also have lives and jobs etc!)
People love to complain about problems where they live but are very slow to actually get involved and try change things or see how they actually work.

OwaynOTT

Residents associations must keep accounts among other things if they are looking for grants, aid etc through the PPN.
They must also be open to new members and have clear positions like treasurer. These positions have to be elected too.
As I'd say most resident associations are registering or hoping to register with the PPN, they will have accounts and be above board.
PPN is the public participation network. Provides aid, grants, support, information and input into local Government. In my area there are over 400 such voluntary groups registered and a heap of Residents Associtions.
They call into the community section, so family fun days or whatever would be acceptable use of funds.

I wouldn't be a lover of resident associations though. Just from my own experience.