Jobseekers who are not seeking jobs

oceanman

damianch wrote: »

It's a bit of a false flag tbh. When the country was doing well, c.2006 we had zero unemploment. Which means about 3% of people give or take are unemployed.

Fast forward through the recession etc , it would be disengenous to presume that all of a sudden people statistially have decided not to work, its just the pure fact that jobs are not the same any more. ) hour contracts, part time, shift work with no contract etc.

The work force hasn't en masse decided to become lazy.

Everyone knows a friends da who does feck all or a lad on the street who says its better to stay at home cos it costs him too much to get to work..

All being said, we are at 6 % unemployed now and its on a downward trend.

People didnt become lazy, the jobs etc just became more technical

Remember , when we had to work.

very good post..

Galwayguy35

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

Depression?

In some cases, more often than not though it's just laziness.

JustAThought

damianch wrote: »

It's a bit of a false flag tbh. When the country was doing well, c.2006 we had zero unemploment. Which means about 3% of people give or take are unemployed.

Fast forward through the recession etc , it would be disengenous to presume that all of a sudden people statistially have decided not to work, its just the pure fact that jobs are not the same any more. ) hour contracts, part time, shift work with no contract etc.

The work force hasn't en masse decided to become lazy.

Everyone knows a friends da who does feck all or a lad on the street who says its better to stay at home cos it costs him too much to get to work..

All being said, we are at 6 % unemployed now and its on a downward trend.

I would dispute these 'facts' utterly - the unemployed are bunched off into courses they have to do or be struck off their dole payments, they are forced to work for free for businesses and multinationals and taken off the unemployment figures, or given to free labour and sold to industries like Seetec and taken off the unemployed figures - not to mention those that are simply classified as 'other payments' and do not work - I could drone on all night. Suffice to say while the economy has picked up we have issued according to CSO figures over 60,000 new PPS numbers to overseas immigrants who are working here now while our indigenous unemployed rise and rise but the figures are hidden in full sight behind schemes,springboards, seetec, free community labour, and a wall built of free housing supported by the working poor for life for those who choose never to let their hours go over a certain level so as to keep milking the system and their working neighbour all the while being a shameless and thankless remorseless burden on society - and who is classified as 'working' despite drawing tens of thousands in dole eligible benefits from the taxpayer every year - fully planned and intentionally. And thats before we add the headcount of the 18yo and upwards 'homeless' who of course must remain unemployed or unemployable to keep their dream of a handout house for life paid for by those working while they scobie their way about town pushing their prams and 4x4 children they cannot afford and have no intention of ever sulporting themselves or those ypung healthy men slugging dutch gold at the steps of the courtroom or doing nixers left right and centre while being 100% able and utterly unwilling to work or put in an honest day on their lives. Figures my Áras. It's fantasy figures.

RabbleRouser2k

JustAThought wrote: »

damianch wrote: »

It's a bit of a false flag tbh. When the country was doing well, c.2006 we had zero unemploment. Which means about 3% of people give or take are unemployed.

Fast forward through the recession etc , it would be disengenous to presume that all of a sudden people statistially have decided not to work, its just the pure fact that jobs are not the same any more. ) hour contracts, part time, shift work with no contract etc.

The work force hasn't en masse decided to become lazy.

Everyone knows a friends da who does feck all or a lad on the street who says its better to stay at home cos it costs him too much to get to work..

All being said, we are at 6 % unemployed now and its on a downward trend.

I would dispute these 'facts' utterly - the unemployed are bunched off into courses they have to do or be struck off their dole payments, they are forced to work for free for businesses and multinationals and taken off the unemployment figures, or given to free labour and sold to industries like Seetec and taken off the unemployed figures - not to mention those that are simply classified as 'other payments' and do not work - I could drone on all night. Suffice to say while the economy has picked up we have issued according to CSO figures over 60,000 new PPS numbers to overseas immigrants who are working here now while our indigenous unemployed rise and rise but the figures are hidden in full sight behind schemes,springboards, seetec, free community labour, and a wall built of free housing supported by the working poor for life for those who choose never to let their hours go over a certain level so as to keep milking the system and their working neighbour all the while being a shameless and thankless remorseless burden on society - and who is classified as 'working' despite drawing tens of thousands in dole eligible benefits from the taxpayer every year - fully planned and intentionally. And thats before we add the headcount of the 18yo and upwards 'homeless' who of course must remain unemployed or unemployable to keep their dream of a handout house for life paid for by those working while they scobie their way about town pushing their prams and 4x4 children they cannot afford and have no intention of ever sulporting themselves or those ypung healthy men slugging dutch gold at the steps of the courtroom or doing nixers left right and centre while being 100% able and utterly unwilling to work or put in an honest day on their lives. Figures my Áras. It's fantasy figures.

I'm not going to disagree with you, I think you raise many interesting points.

But it's even worse than that. I know many people who went off to study a subject they wanted to do as a career. Years later, they do volunteer work, because they cannot get a job. Either the course was a load of pap, or it was something like a technology job-and as soon as they graduated, their skills were outdated. And the course has never updated their content, so will continue to teach dated software or programs etc. And more unemployment.

Others, as soon as they graduate, go into a Solas course, or work in coffee shops because they have no other choice.

I know many others who went abroad for work, but had to return after a year, then working retail. One of my friends studied computer software, graduated, and was on the dole for a year afterwards. He only got work via some training program unrelated to anything he studied. Got a job in a computer company. But it was nothing to do with what he studied. On the job training saved him.

But can you imagine how absolutely sickening it is to put your heart and soul into something-and then realise it's for naught?

NinetyTwoTeam

There's just no point talking about this most of the time because the type of person who holds a grudge against the unemployed (because I guess they figure the homeless are too soft a target or something) are convinced of things that are based on 'this guy I know' or 'my neighbour' who gets this that and the other and blah blah blah.

Based on said guy or neighbor they are 100% sure, utterly convinced, that everyone on the dole gets all sorts of other benefits as well making it more profitable than work without the hassle.

When you tell them that you've been denied this that and the other they just can't compute, as it goes against this thing they've convinced themselves of, totally and forever, simply so they have someone to resent. Without that person to resent they run out of fuel.

When you ask them why they don't just give up their job if it's so easy to get everything for free etc they will mumble some half arsed moral high ground crap about how they weren't raised to be a layabout or whatever.

Then they'll usually backpedal a bit, and say they're not against those that are genuinely seeking work, it's the 'cradle to the grave dole lifers' that they want something done about. And then they will talk about 'that guy' again who never worked and has a big TV or a fancy dog or something.

They HAVE to have some type of doley boogeyman to hate. It's so bizarre. Hating poor people because they are existing. Is it just because they are existing without having to work a job they hate the way most taxpayers do? Okay, I get that, but without a job you are always one unexpected expense or high electric bill from being ruined. It's far more stressful than it sounds to be out of work, because you are broke all the time.

NinetyTwoTeam

It's isolating AF, too. You can't afford to attend many social events or take classes, birthdays and Christmas put you under pressure, and you will often avoid meeting new people so you don't get asked 'what do you do?'

It's a rank situation to be in for any stretch, but especially long term. I never thought it would happen to me. Now that I have this big gap on my CV I may as well not exist, it seems. In fact, I'd probably be better off leaving my art degree, that I worked very hard for (while waiting tables/bartending to all hours at a hotel on nights and weekends) off my CV, because it won't get me into any well paid jobs, and I think employers honestly want less educated people for more menial low paid work. I suppose they are easier to control and less likely to think they are worth more than minimum wage.

Funny though, I find that the same people who will say someone on the dole should take any job even if it's min wage, are the same types who will say McDonald's workers should not get a living wage because min wage jobs like that are meant for teenagers. So no matter what you do, if you're poor, you're doing it wrong and it's all your fault, in the eyes of the middle and upper classes.

And yes, like another poster said, these dole bashers must be really touched in the head if they think the gov would put any savings from a reduction in dole payments into workers pockets, cut taxes, etc. But they know that wouldn't happen and that suits them just fine because more than anyone else, they need someone to hate and blame for them not having as big a pay packet as they would like.

I just don't get the type of person who blames the poor, though. If it is all down to money, Why not blame the rich? There are countless articles written about how bad they have fleeced and are still fleecing everyone from the middle class on down, and they HAVE all the money, why not go up against them with your beef, Mr. Worker Bee? Is it a lack of brains or balls?

At this point, anyone who constantly gives out about people on the dole is just as much a waste of space (to me anyway) as I am sure I am to them. In fact, I do not mind admitting I think I am a thousand times better than they are. because I never look down on those less fortunate than me, and if things improve for me and i get work, that won't change. I won't begrudge anyone their dole. Have a Dutchie on me brother IDGAF.

But the ones that are bashing people like me now probably will never change their attitude unless they have to experience it themselves. Which I wouldn't wish on anyone. Because it sucks.

And the only thing that sucks worse, are the people who are so dumb they think it doesn't suck, or so bitter that they don't care it sucks, or too cowardly to turn their anger towards those who are quite obviously responsible for making ALL our lives suck by hoarding all the money and resources, or those who through political activity and legislation are making such hoarding not only lawful, but normal and convenient.

Wibbs

JustAThought wrote: »

Its absolutely a national disgrace how we treat carers and the people who often worked all their lives and now depend on them and are discarded into poverty and need at their time of illness by a shameless state. Id love to see carers protest and organised - irony is that they are too busy working 24/7 for a pittance to be able to ever do that. I bet 500 extra patients left in A&E every night with a film crew and journalist would focus their attention quickly enough.

To be fair and granted this was just my experience: yes the allowance is hardly a fortune, but I wouldn't expect it to be. The backup from social and health services is there, at least in my urban area and there are all sorts of grants and other benefits in the carers package for both the carer and the caree*. There are also a few carers associations to turn to for help. Once you're in the system the backup is there for the most part. I had no complaints on that score and we're certainly far better than say in our neighbour the UK. I'd say we get better support and services than many if not most other EU countries. In the US you'd be on your own relying on savings and charity for the most part. Is it perfect? No, but it's pretty bloody good IMHO.

What I did see and what I'm seeing now and where IMHO the system needs work is carers themselves get little enough focus, but where that really comes into sharp relief is afterwards, when the cared for person dies, an afterwards rarely discussed. As an ex carer you're very much in limbo. All those support systems taps just turn off overnight and you're just another newly minted "short term unemployed jobseeker". Even though in many cases a person could be out of the job market(and life in general) for years, even decades and middle aged or near pensionable age, never mind the mental and physical toll long term caring can bring. Essentially unemployable and there are thousands facing that annually. TBH if I had my life to live over again I would have walked away at the start and not done the carer thing and harsh though it may sound I'd advise someone looking down the barrel of that to do the same.





*though I wasn't informed about what they were, so as it turns out missed out on a few, medical card for one. I didn't even realise I had free travel until I got a new social services card thingie without it. But TBH after years of being "out of the loop" and in the red financially, I was just grateful to be getting any help.

mariaalice

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

I think the 'unemployed' rate here in Ireland is considerably underreported because there are many who hide behind the 'self-employed' tag, while claiming benefits. (May even be their partner is claiming single parent allowance, while house sharing).

It's similar to how the housing crisis is much worse-people are sleeping on couches rather than sleep rough.

That is nonsense there is a lot of scrutiny of any self-employed person looking for any benefit.

mariaalice

Yester wrote: »

Some people are unemployable.

That is probably true, for a variety of reason including mental health.

I know someone who took in tow Syrian refugees who have been granted refugee status and within three days they both had full-time jobs and one of them has poor English.

Wibbs

mariaalice wrote: »

That is nonsense there is a lot of scrutiny of any self-employed person looking for any benefit.

+1000. Being self employed puts up red flags when it comes to any social welfare enquiry. I was told this directly more than once during the applying for carer's help. And this was a very clear cut case of care being required and already being supplied for years out of my own resources. I've seen it cases of friends looking for support who were self employed and those who had been PAYE. Very different experiences.

SMJSF

See, people who haven't had the chance or choice to go to 3rd level education have no reason to get a job because all there is are minimum wage jobs.
I was on unemployment for 2 years, done 2 courses, didnt get anything from them just like what a previous poster said, just an outdated qualification.
I finally got a part time job under 24 hours PW, no chance of getting a FT position within the company, and done it for two years, but it was minimum wage, and when I done the calculations, i was only €16 better off a week, which went straught to bus fares to and from work.

I've even seen a job advert less than a year ago for a well know brand of newsagents in south Dublin looking for a cashier, manager and night cleaner (1 person) for 10hrs a week, for €9ph (whatever the rate was then) and with over 7 years management experience.
so employers want 1 person, to pay pennys, for 3 positions.
and I've seen the same done for "receptionist" job ads.
And companies regularly announce in the news that theres over 50 new positions opening in the next year in some warehouse or call centre, but when you look for the details, they never happen or exist.

mariaalice

SMJSF wrote: »

See, people who haven't had the chance or choice to go to 3rd level education have no reason to get a job because all there is are minimum wage jobs.
I was on unemployment for 2 years, done 2 courses, didnt get anything from them just like what a previous poster said, just an outdated qualification.
I finally got a part time job under 24 hours PW, no chance of getting a FT position within the company, and done it for two years, but it was minimum wage, and when I done the calculations, i was only €16 better off a week, which went straught to bus fares to and from work.

I've even seen a job advert less than a year ago for a well know brand of newsagents in south Dublin looking for a cashier, manager and night cleaner (1 person) for 10hrs a week, for €9ph (whatever the rate was then) and with over 7 years management experience.
so employers want 1 person, to pay pennys, for 3 positions.
and I've seen the same done for "receptionist" job ads.
And companies regularly announce in the news that theres over 50 new positions opening in the next year in some warehouse or call centre, but when you look for the details, they never happen or exist.

A general operative position in a good multinational will pay more than min wage. retail, catering hotel work and the like won't ever pay well unless you are in management. Chefs are well paid though.

Would you not consider an apprentiship of some kind?

RabbleRouser2k

SMJSF wrote: »

See, people who haven't had the chance or choice to go to 3rd level education have no reason to get a job because all there is are minimum wage jobs.
I was on unemployment for 2 years, done 2 courses, didnt get anything from them just like what a previous poster said, just an outdated qualification.
I finally got a part time job under 24 hours PW, no chance of getting a FT position within the company, and done it for two years, but it was minimum wage, and when I done the calculations, i was only €16 better off a week, which went straught to bus fares to and from work.

I've even seen a job advert less than a year ago for a well know brand of newsagents in south Dublin looking for a cashier, manager and night cleaner (1 person) for 10hrs a week, for €9ph (whatever the rate was then) and with over 7 years management experience.
so employers want 1 person, to pay pennys, for 3 positions.
and I've seen the same done for "receptionist" job ads.
And companies regularly announce in the news that theres over 50 new positions opening in the next year in some warehouse or call centre, but when you look for the details, they never happen or exist.

I know many who didn't do third level who are far better off than those who did. Some in their 20s or 30s who did PLCS, or like Jim McGuinness (the former donegal manager) who redid their Leaving Certificate and then went to third level. Many just don't like the idea of doing 3 or 4 years and getting potentially nothing out of it. And that's not even counting the many drop-outs across the country.

The amount of qualified teachers who work in retail is staggering. I'm not mocking their situation, far from it, I'm just noting it. Even now, there's been a significant drop in people choosing third level. I imagine they saw how hard it was for their siblings and how little they got out of their studies.

mariaalice

Giving our about those on welfare, sometimes it is just plain nastiness, or its immaturity or its an unhealthy coping mechanism for those who are maybe putting the baby into a creche 12 hours a day and working to pay a mortgage.

Permabear

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Dakota Dan

Viscount Aggro wrote: »

Yeah, like 8 hours is not enough work to put in?
I know this Maltese girl - during the bad years, 2009 / 10, she told me she was doing 14 hour days, spent 2 - 3 hours per job application.
Had meals shoved under the bedroom door on a tray.

She must've been fairly hungry if her meals fitted under the bedroom door on a tray.

suicide_circus

There is a correlation between unemployment and intelligence.

fg1406

Ive no kids but I do work and so does my husband and we have a mortgage albeit a relatively reasonable one. I do get annoyed from time to time with those who never work. They aren’t a majority in the unemployed but they are there. Personally I know of about 10 long term unemployed who have zero Interest in working. My old housemate from years ago didn’t work when I lived with her and still doesn’t work and that’s 9 years now. My cousin and her partner have never worked since finishing school and they are both in their early 30s and have a handful of kids. He goes on a CE scheme every few years and once it finishes he goes back on the dole. I have another acquaintance who walked out of his job because he could do better (he worked in warehousing). He evidently couldn’t as he had no qualifications in anything. He has done a fetac level 5 course in computer skills and I **** you not, he’s holding out for a job in google or Facebook. Since that’s not happening he’s sitting on the scratcher.

So there are people who take a dim view of the working world and have no qualms about being given state support while they rest on their laurels or breed or hold out for a job that doesn’t exist. We have a system that supports people who find themselves unemployed and I’m delighted we do. That’s why we pay PRSI and I would never ever begrudge anyone getting help when needed, particularly those who lost jobs in the recession. Unfortunately we do have a system of supporting long term unemployment. A graded system of reducing benefits would encourage further workplace participation. When I lived in Norway years ago, If you found yourself unemployed you received benefits for a few months which reduce after 6 months, which reduce again after 9 months, as the government deems that’s enough time to find A job. Any job that will tie you over until you get back on your feet.

mariaalice

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Of course there are, did you see my post about the Syrian's who got full-time jobs in three days, but they are a very small amount and even if was solved it they would move on to something else to focus their ire on because of its something about human nature in the western world.

The history of it is fascinating and it a lot to do a moral judgment of others.

I agree with the reduced welfare for under 25 with one canvate its should be increesed for anyone on back to education allowance.

RabbleRouser2k

mariaalice wrote: »

Of course there are, did you see my post about the Syrian's who got full-time jobs in three days, but they are a very small amount and even if the was solved it they would move on to something else to focus their ire on because of its something about human nature in the western world.

The history of it is fascinating and it a lot to do a moral judgment of others.

Some times it can be down to connections as well-like, someone in the know. It can help you get into a job.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

mariaalice

fg1406 wrote: »

Ive no kids but I do work and so does my husband and we have a mortgage albeit a relatively reasonable one. I do get annoyed from time to time with those who never work. They aren’t a majority in the unemployed but they are there. Personally I know of about 10 long term unemployed who have zero Interest in working. My old housemate from years ago didn’t work when I lived with her and still doesn’t work and that’s 9 years now. My cousin and her partner have never worked since finishing school and they are both in their early 30s and have a handful of kids. He goes on a CE scheme every few years and once it finishes he goes back on the dole. I have another acquaintance who walked out of his job because he could do better (he worked in warehousing). He evidently couldn’t as he had no qualifications in anything. He has done a fetac level 5 course in computer skills and I **** you not, he’s holding out for a job in google or Facebook. Since that’s not happening he’s sitting on the scratcher.

So there are people who take a dim view of the working world and have no qualms about being given state support while they rest on their laurels or breed or hold out for a job that doesn’t exist. We have a system that supports people who find themselves unemployed and I’m delighted we do. That’s why we pay PRSI and I would never ever begrudge anyone getting help when needed, particularly those who lost jobs in the recession. Unfortunately we do have a system of supporting long term unemployment. A graded system of reducing benefits would encourage further workplace participation. When I lived in Norway years ago, If you found yourself unemployed you received benefits for a few months which reduce after 6 months, which reduce again after 9 months, as the government deems that’s enough time to find A job. Any job that will tie you over until you get back on your feet.

That is a very good point think about this, posters post about the 2 or 4 or 10 they know on welfare never about the dozens of friends neighbors and acquaintances who are working.

mariaalice

The word derives from the Latin villanus, meaning ‘one attached to a villa or farmhouse’. Villanus moved into the English language in two forms: villain defined by the OED as ‘a low-born, base-minded rustic’ (from c.1303), and villein ‘one of the class of serfs in the feudal system’. Over a few hundred years the word comes to signify illegal activities.

Villain
Think of the word villain and you may imagine criminals, pickpockets or fraudsters. But the association of the word with crime is relatively new. In fact the word originally referred to a particular class of people on the lower levels of feudal society.

http://www.bl.uk/learning/langlit/dic/oed/villain/villain.html

In other words, the word Villan as meaning a criminal attached its self to people who were originally serfs not criminals, in other words, a moral judgment on someone for merely occupying a lower social class.

mariaalice

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Some times it can be down to connections as well-like, someone in the know. It can help you get into a job.

The Syrians didn't get the job because they knew someone they got them because there is a labor shortage in the lower echelons of the catering industry. They went around various hotels and asked for jobs the only help they got was a lift to the various hotels as they have no transport.

Dakota Dan

suicide_circus wrote: »

There is a correlation between unemployment and intelligence.

Please explain what type of intelligence?

Mr. teddywinkles

NinetyTwoTeam wrote: »

It's isolating AF, too. You can't afford to attend many social events or take classes, birthdays and Christmas put you under pressure, and you will often avoid meeting new people so you don't get asked 'what do you do?'

It's a rank situation to be in for any stretch, but especially long term. I never thought it would happen to me. Now that I have this big gap on my CV I may as well not exist, it seems. In fact, I'd probably be better off leaving my art degree, that I worked very hard for (while waiting tables/bartending to all hours at a hotel on nights and weekends) off my CV, because it won't get me into any well paid jobs, and I think employers honestly want less educated people for more menial low paid work. I suppose they are easier to control and less likely to think they are worth more than minimum wage.

Funny though, I find that the same people who will say someone on the dole should take any job even if it's min wage, are the same types who will say McDonald's workers should not get a living wage because min wage jobs like that are meant for teenagers. So no matter what you do, if you're poor, you're doing it wrong and it's all your fault, in the eyes of the middle and upper classes.

And yes, like another poster said, these dole bashers must be really touched in the head if they think the gov would put any savings from a reduction in dole payments into workers pockets, cut taxes, etc. But they know that wouldn't happen and that suits them just fine because more than anyone else, they need someone to hate and blame for them not having as big a pay packet as they would like.

I just don't get the type of person who blames the poor, though. If it is all down to money, Why not blame the rich? There are countless articles written about how bad they have fleeced and are still fleecing everyone from the middle class on down, and they HAVE all the money, why not go up against them with your beef, Mr. Worker Bee? Is it a lack of brains or balls?

At this point, anyone who constantly gives out about people on the dole is just as much a waste of space (to me anyway) as I am sure I am to them. In fact, I do not mind admitting I think I am a thousand times better than they are. because I never look down on those less fortunate than me, and if things improve for me and i get work, that won't change. I won't begrudge anyone their dole. Have a Dutchie on me brother IDGAF.

But the ones that are bashing people like me now probably will never change their attitude unless they have to experience it themselves. Which I wouldn't wish on anyone. Because it sucks.

And the only thing that sucks worse, are the people who are so dumb they think it doesn't suck, or so bitter that they don't care it sucks, or too cowardly to turn their anger towards those who are quite obviously responsible for making ALL our lives suck by hoarding all the money and resources, or those who through political activity and legislation are making such hoarding not only lawful, but normal and convenient.

The reason behind looking down instead of up comes down to don't bite the hand that feeds ya.
Paychecks come down the line. So what goes on above is never questioned.

Permabear

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Mr. teddywinkles

Permabear wrote: »

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Ya do realize that 20bn doesn't just go to life dolers don't ya

Permabear

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weldoninhio

n!ghtmancometh wrote: »

How do you know people aren't trying to find jobs? It's not like the old days where you handed CVs in endlessly to every business you can think of. Everything is done online now for the most part.

If you had any idea of the reality of job seeking / being unemployed you would also know that the DSP is following the awful British idea of privatising the welfare system to companies like Seetec (who have been proven to fraudulently massage the figures of people they have found work for, in order to claim bonuses from the UK government) so of course they follow claims up.

I met with a clueless job advisor once a month when I was unemployed a few years back, who's only suggestion was to change the font on my CV. I'd change it and at the next meeting be told to change it again.

Never understood how people can get so riled up about people living a miserable existence on 192 a week, or whatever it is now. Government are throwing money away in so many areas on on consultants and in the legal system in particular, yet this is what gets people's backs up. Depressing.

Plus an almost rent free house, plus children allowance, plus medical card, free dental etc, plus every other cent they can con. I'm from a council estate, some people are just wasters. I've never been on the dole in my life, I've worked in retail and restaurants during secondary school, worked in glasshouses and retail when I left school until I got a job and have worked in a few different industries since.

Does my head in when I go for a few quiet pints after a hard week and see all the wasters in the corner who've never worked a day in their life, locked, taking trips to the jacks two at a time to "powder their noses", and generally being a feral nuisance. All paid for by me and the other mugs who actually get up in the morning and go to work.

Billy86

I've had a few "but you know how things are, what with the recession and all..." lines thrown at me in the last few months. Now people might be just out of work recently, or looking for something specific up their career path, or trying to change careers (did the same a few years back, can be very tricky at first to get your foot I many doors) or something else, but anyone trying to pretend it's 2010 "with the recession" in 2018 really needs to get the thumb out and stop lying to themselves.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Permabear

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I'm a bit surprised by this coming from you. You tend to be very clued in to the realities of business management. All businesses and management have their own agendas/biases. There are heaps of hurdles to jump through if you wish to get a job. It's not simply the case of having the relevant qualifications and experiences... but that you fill the invisible boxes. Certain groups will have better chances than others simply because of the social movement about minorities or the encouragement of women in the workplace.

It also considering what's actually available. Oh sure, Dublin is booming, but if you wish to live outside of Dublin, then you're forced to commute which can be extremely difficult depending on your real life circumstances (dependents, disabilities, etc)

Here's my experience. I returned to Ireland last year. I have a MBA, various credit control qualifications, a Bachelor in Psychology. I'm also NLP certified. 15 years previous experience working in Finance, but I'd spent the last 7 years lecturing Business in Chinese Universities. Nope, not an English teacher... although I am Tefl certified.

I sought jobs online in my area (Midlands). Nope. No financial related work, except for a Commission based Debt recovery position. I'll pass, since I know how that works out. Administrative jobs? Nope. Banking jobs? Only senior level positions, or student type greeter positions. Sales and Marketing? Three Ecom/Web marketing jobs. Okie dokie. Applied since I have my own blog and website. Nope, Need a Comp Science degree. Huh? Really? Yup. Lidl Management scheme? Hoops. Last five trainees for my region have all been Asian or African. (I checked with two Irish people who did it, succeeded, and were placed as normal employees with a promise of a review 'later')

And then I look at the jobs actually available. Chef/Hospitality. Right. Hotel booking staff... 3 years actual hospitality work required (I checked). Pharma type jobs. Loads. Need formal science degrees. Technical jobs aplenty. Craftsmen/Building/Machine operators... all needing certifications, and experience.

Then I walked around the town, and did the same with most of the towns within 40 miles of me. Dunnes stores/Tesco/etc. Yup... there are jobs. Packing shelves since you're male, and upward movement is naturally kinda slow. Min wage jobs in the few independent shops around, but they're struggling themselves compared to the chain shops.

Cafes/bars aren't an option for me since I have a shaking disorder.

So... To put in perspective. During 6 months where I actively sought jobs in the midlands, I had a grand total of 9 interviews. I applied for over 100 jobs ranging from what I was definitely qualified for, right down to no qualifications needed.

In the interviews, I got the 'sense' that I had either been out of work too long, being out of the country as a teacher wasn't a plus, at 41 I was pushing it as a entrance employee, and that I'd lived abroad for so long meant they couldn't rely on me staying with them. Right. Oh and the contracts on offer were all short term.

I've spoken to quite a few other people who were on JS during the same period I was. They're all qualified in various business fields, and have experience in their areas. They've all found it difficult to find work past a few months, often getting jobs for short periods, and being let go as the shorter contract expires.

Now... As for Dublin, considering the % of the population living there, and the amount of work available... I dunno what the situation is. However, if you're living outside Dublin and don't have the ability to commute to Dublin every day for a job, it's not quite as easy to get a job.

Funnily enough, I'm highly employable should I leave Ireland. Which I will be in a few months time since my parents are recovering nicely. Did a search, applied, a series of interviews, and contracts aplenty offered. Easy peasy.

jigglypuffstuff

Permabear wrote: »

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If any said taxpayer isn't happy I'm sure they could easily pack up and leave to another country... one where they might be more satisfied....

Or moreso...they could protest

However..the sick irony is that just as those who are too lazy to work do nothing to change their situation.. you equally have those who pay all the tax doing nothing to change their predicament...

So not only is it hypocritical...it's actually worse from the taxpayers perspective because the scroungers have little incentive to change their situation...they are perfectly happy

It's those who pay all the tax to fund it that appear not to be...so the impetus for change actually rests with them, not the former

Permabear

Permabear wrote: »

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Maybe. But I'm thinking that there should be a distinction made between those who can't get work, versus those are not interested in finding work.

I know people who have been on welfare for the last twenty years. These people are known in the system and in the community as being 'wasters'. They've never held a job longer than a few months, and have no real reason not to be working, except for their past history. Honestly, I highly doubt they're even capable of being accepted by any company not sponsored by the government. There's never been any real attempt to push them off welfare (for whatever reason), and likely they'll die off soon.

Then there's the Travelers, other minority groups, or racial groups who generally have a hard time getting work even if they have the interest or qualifications to do so. I have a student (23 yr old) who's from the rather large traveler community nearby, and who has completed third level with a Bachelor in Marketing. He's doing speech classes to reduce/remove the accent. The second he does an interview and his background comes up, he knows that job offer is gone. With the exception of government promoted schemes, he has little to no chance of gaining work. A booming economy doesn't help him much, and he'll be going abroad next year to find work without the stigma of being a traveler. You'd think we'd want to keep the good ones here.

Then, there's a Nigerian family I know, whose parents are both highly educated, but can only get temp minimum wage jobs. Moonlighting between JS and crappy jobs all the time. Why? Because there are still a lot of racists in Ireland, and there is still certain stigmas about putting a black man in the public eye. Slightly easier for a black woman, but still there are issues.

You see, I was on less than 120 euro per week while on JS. Is that what you mean by cutting back? It's a sorry existence to live on that amount, and provides extremely little opportunity to save towards anything. You'll be lucky if you can manage to save all year to put anything away after all the various gift giving 'celebrations'.

TBH... I get tired of this attitude... Provide Feckin aternatives to the dole. Mandatory educational courses in useful frickin qualifications that have a future. Make a bloody effort to provide skills to the people on the dole so that they can get that job in Pharma, Science, or the other technical jobs sprouting up all over Ireland.

Before I left Ireland, roughly 15 years ago, there were far higher numbers of people on the dole, and the threads were just as common as now. And the attitudes were the same. They're a bunch of wasters, and reduce the dole amount. Everything will sort itself out that way. It won't. Because the educational schemes are ****. The government schemes are temp employment. Many of those finding work after being on JS are back on JS a month or two later. There's little movement towards finding lasting employment for those on welfare. Just quick schemes.

Permabear

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I feel as angry about jobseekers who are not seeking work as I do about people who are receiving income that they don't have to work for.

Yes, shareholders, car park owners, "investors" and the like sitting on their capital/arses while others work.

somefeen

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I feel as angry about jobseekers who are not seeking work as I do about people who are receiving income that they don't have to work for.

Yes, shareholders, car park owners, "investors" and the like sitting on their capital/arses while others work.

Yeah I hate when people get paid interest on their savings. Scrounging bastards

SEPT 23 1989

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I feel as angry about jobseekers who are not seeking work as I do about people who are receiving income that they don't have to work for.

Yes, shareholders, car park owners, "investors" and the like sitting on their capital/arses while others work.

They always pick on the wrong target look up the ladder they are the ones really fcuking you

bodhrandude

Permabear wrote: »

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Heres what to do, bring in a legislation that forces employers to start training people again properly and take away these stupid entry level requirements of three or two years experience.

Permabear

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Permabear

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bodhrandude

Permabear wrote: »

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I wasn't talking about fund manager positions, more daft stuff like floor staff at bars, shop assistants, semi-skilled stuff.

Billy86

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I feel as angry about jobseekers who are not seeking work as I do about people who are receiving income that they don't have to work for.

Yes, shareholders, car park owners, "investors" and the like sitting on their capital/arses while others work.

That's a bit flawed though. If I come up with an idea for some incredible app that is going to change the world, but need €50,000 to get it up and running, I'm probably not going to get a loan of that from the bank.

So if I go to John Businessman down the road, and he gives me the 50k because he thinks it can be a success... if that app winds up making €500mn should John Businessman not expect more than his 50k back in return? And if not, why?

And if he shouldn't, he won't be investing. My app never gets made. My fantasy company never gets to employ hundreds of people. Those jobs and that income tax never go back into the system, including welfare but also many other avenues. Companies never get to avail if my game changing service. I never get rich off it and need to keep a job someone else could house in my absence, John never gets his return, basically everybody loses.

somefeen

bodhrandude wrote: »

I wasn't talking about fund manager positions, more daft stuff like floor staff at bars, shop assistants, semi-skilled stuff.

You know that's not a bad idea. I actually find that kind of work very hard to get.
I don't want denigrate that kind of work. I'm sure it is hard work and there's definitely some skill involved but I don't need 5 years experience behind me to work a till or pull a pint.
I think I mentioned it earlier in the thread but if you don't get that experience by time your 23 its like forget about it.

Doctor Jimbob

Permabear wrote: »

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Interesting you mention the hotel sector crying out for work. I applied for jobs in that sector while unemployed just a few months ago and didn't hear a word back despite having relevant experince - not even a no thanks. I don't know why these places are allegedly taking on foreign nationals instead of unemployed Irish, but if it is happening the fault certainly isn't entirely on the unemployed. I'm working in a a good job that better matches my qualifications now anyway so it doesn't matter too much to me, but these generalising posts still get on my nerves. The economy is booming, yes. And unemployment is going down. If the economy continues to boom, uemployment will likely fall further. What's the issue here? Why the need to imply the majority of the 225000 are layabouts? To me it looks as if the system is working as intended.

Permabear

Permabear wrote: »

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Now, I didn't say that. But I'll bite. My specialised area is credit control and liquidations. Plenty of work for that in Dublin. Outside of Dublin, very very little. But I have a MBA and my Bachelor is in Business with a Finance addon. I'm qualified for most business related roles, and have experience in administration, customer service, operations, etc. Nope.. Not much work for any of those areas. Customer service jobs in Ireland require a second language, and while I can speak Chinese, companies are seeking Chinese nationals who can speak English. 'Business' is a rather large field.. and while I'm qualified, there just aren't the jobs being offered.

But, yes, to the geographical region. I looked at areas in the Midlands, because I was on-call. Needed to be within an hour travel to get back if needed.

JSA is supposed to help someone find a job. Not the perfect job, or the job in the sector you qualified to work in, but any job. There are sectors like hotels just crying out for workers right now, while there are about 225,000 people on the Live Register.

I was on JS for almost six months. I didn't get offered one Job. Not one. I signed up to all the initiatives, and applied for jobs on the jobsite but was told I wasn't on the JS long enough... yup, long enough to be eligible for these jobs.

And where are these jobs that are crying out for staff? How are they being advertised? There were plenty of times facing my empty bank account where I would have accepted any job that paid me more than 120 euro a week. Hell, I'd have accepted the 120e job just to keep myself busy.

You've given examples of people who can't do such work due to medical conditions, or people who face barriers like discrimination and so on -- but that should surely account for only a small fraction of those 225,000 people. What about the rest of them?

Oh, I agree that there are heaps of people without an "excuse"... However, even when looking for jobs, there were plenty of hurdles. The only viable option I found was moving to Dublin. Seriously. Apart from the small number of jobs that cropped up with massive competition locally, Dublin was the only option for work.

It's an unavoidable reality that if the welfare system didn't provide them with so much cash and so many benefits and so much free time, many of them would be at work, earning a living and not depending on taxpayer handouts. I do think that gradually cutting back welfare entitlements over time, as most other countries do, is the only way to save people from becoming unemployable welfare dependents over the long run.

Welfare in itself is unsustainable. I agree there and it does encourage a "type" of lifestyle... but I've met very few people in my area that fall into that category. Now... if the Midlands was swimming with jobs which demanded easily met requirements, then I'd sure I could agree with you further. However... from looking myself, there aren't a lot of job prospects here, and I can sympathise with those who find it impossible to get employed. There is much more to this than leeching off the system.

No disagreement about the quality of training courses and all that -- but again, we're not in 2010 anymore. The economy is booming. And yet we have over two hundred thousand people sitting on the dole, allegedly unable to find jobs, while foreign nationals can come into the country and be working within days.

The economy is booming in Dublin, and in the other major population centres to a lesser extent. I live in a major town in the midlands, and while there are a number of international companies nearby, the majority of their employees are foreigners. All are in areas that are highly skilled, or need particular qualifications in medtech or pharma.

Walking through the town you can see that the big department stores are doing well, but individual shops are still shutting down. There are plenty of streets with cafes, shops, etc which were closed a few years ago and not been replaced by something else. So, while I have seen the claims of a booming economy, I've seen very little sign of it outside of Dublin or Galway.

Permabear

Permabear wrote: »

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You introduce probationary periods and scale their responsibility to their levels... training them up in-house. Which is basically what companies do anyway with 'entry' positions.

For managerial or select positions, experience and proven ability must always be a requirement. However, I think the other poster is pointing to the amount of jobs out there for pretty low level access, but have requirements for experience.

I'll give an example. While I was unemployed, I sought to upskill, and shift into a different area where there were jobs locally. I learned Javascript, Java, and improved my CSharp. I completed a number of projects, and expanded my scope by experimenting with various app development. I got to the stage where I needed a working environment to learn further. So I applied for jobs, passed their tests, and failed on the interviews because I didn't have a Comp Science degree, and/or relevant past experience in a professional programming environment. And there was no way for me to get that experience. I wasn't applying for lead programmer positions. I was applying for testing positions which are generally already at the lower end of the spectrum.

The requirement on experience is a common thing now on job adverts, and while it definitely makes sense for upper positions, it creates a serious barrier for everything else.

bodhrandude

Deleted User wrote: »

You introduce probationary periods and scale their responsibility to their levels... training them up in-house. Which is basically what companies do anyway with 'entry' positions.

For managerial or select positions, experience and proven ability must always be a requirement. However, I think the other poster is pointing to the amount of jobs out there for pretty low level access, but have requirements for experience.

I'll give an example. While I was unemployed, I sought to upskill, and shift into a different area where there were jobs locally. I learned Javascript, Java, and improved my CSharp. I completed a number of projects, and expanded my scope by experimenting with various app development. I got to the stage where I needed a working environment to learn further. So I applied for jobs, passed their tests, and failed on the interviews because I didn't have a Comp Science degree, and/or relevant past experience in a professional programming environment. And there was no way for me to get that experience. I wasn't applying for lead programmer positions. I was applying for testing positions which are generally already at the lower end of the spectrum.

The requirement on experience is a common thing now on job adverts, and while it definitely makes sense for upper positions, it creates a serious barrier for everything else.

Klaz I totally agree, I got my journalism degree in 2010 and went out to apply to every newspaper and magazine and online journals, but only ever got a few replies and basically all you have is the same companies, newspapers and online journals to apply to again in the future. I have tried numerous up skilling, working in an office environment as an admin for a charity where I gave information and advoacy to people on direct provision and refugees and the long term unemployed. This was a CE scheme and I hoped the qualification would possibly get me some more admin office work with using my journalism degree as an English degree basically. Anyways I remember applying for an admin office position at the local Intreo office, basically to help people put CVs together, something along the same lines as what I was doing for two years with the Galway Peoples' Resource Centre, the CE scheme I just mentioned. Well at least I got a reply but it was a rejection.

What is the point of Intreo putting people on these schemes if no employers is taking any notice, why isn't there career advisers to help people choose an employable path in first place. Why is this not in place for the fourth year of Secondary school.

weldoninhio

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm a bit surprised by this coming from you. You tend to be very clued in to the realities of business management. All businesses and management have their own agendas/biases. There are heaps of hurdles to jump through if you wish to get a job. It's not simply the case of having the relevant qualifications and experiences... but that you fill the invisible boxes. Certain groups will have better chances than others simply because of the social movement about minorities or the encouragement of women in the workplace.

It also considering what's actually available. Oh sure, Dublin is booming, but if you wish to live outside of Dublin, then you're forced to commute which can be extremely difficult depending on your real life circumstances (dependents, disabilities, etc)

Here's my experience. I returned to Ireland last year. I have a MBA, various credit control qualifications, a Bachelor in Psychology. I'm also NLP certified. 15 years previous experience working in Finance, but I'd spent the last 7 years lecturing Business in Chinese Universities. Nope, not an English teacher... although I am Tefl certified.

I sought jobs online in my area (Midlands). Nope. No financial related work, except for a Commission based Debt recovery position. I'll pass, since I know how that works out. Administrative jobs? Nope. Banking jobs? Only senior level positions, or student type greeter positions. Sales and Marketing? Three Ecom/Web marketing jobs. Okie dokie. Applied since I have my own blog and website. Nope, Need a Comp Science degree. Huh? Really? Yup. Lidl Management scheme? Hoops. Last five trainees for my region have all been Asian or African. (I checked with two Irish people who did it, succeeded, and were placed as normal employees with a promise of a review 'later')

And then I look at the jobs actually available. Chef/Hospitality. Right. Hotel booking staff... 3 years actual hospitality work required (I checked). Pharma type jobs. Loads. Need formal science degrees. Technical jobs aplenty. Craftsmen/Building/Machine operators... all needing certifications, and experience.

Then I walked around the town, and did the same with most of the towns within 40 miles of me. Dunnes stores/Tesco/etc. Yup... there are jobs. Packing shelves since you're male, and upward movement is naturally kinda slow. Min wage jobs in the few independent shops around, but they're struggling themselves compared to the chain shops.

Cafes/bars aren't an option for me since I have a shaking disorder.

So... To put in perspective. During 6 months where I actively sought jobs in the midlands, I had a grand total of 9 interviews. I applied for over 100 jobs ranging from what I was definitely qualified for, right down to no qualifications needed.

In the interviews, I got the 'sense' that I had either been out of work too long, being out of the country as a teacher wasn't a plus, at 41 I was pushing it as a entrance employee, and that I'd lived abroad for so long meant they couldn't rely on me staying with them. Right. Oh and the contracts on offer were all short term.

I've spoken to quite a few other people who were on JS during the same period I was. They're all qualified in various business fields, and have experience in their areas. They've all found it difficult to find work past a few months, often getting jobs for short periods, and being let go as the shorter contract expires.

Now... As for Dublin, considering the % of the population living there, and the amount of work available... I dunno what the situation is. However, if you're living outside Dublin and don't have the ability to commute to Dublin every day for a job, it's not quite as easy to get a job.

Funnily enough, I'm highly employable should I leave Ireland. Which I will be in a few months time since my parents are recovering nicely. Did a search, applied, a series of interviews, and contracts aplenty offered. Easy peasy.

Have you tried the excuses factory?? You seem fairly qualified in that. Turned your nose up at the debt consolidation role, nose up at banking, no idea what “hoops” means for Lidl but reads like de fordiners always get them so I didn’t bother, you are too good for a standard Tesco retail position and shure independent shops will probably all close down.

If you come across in an interview like you do here I’m not surprised your unemployable.