Should Dublin Football be split?

OldMrBrennan83

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DONTMATTER

Dr. Bre wrote: »

Ha your comparing dubs success and how it was achieved to lance Armstrong

Do you know what financial doping means?
It's more on a par with what we've seen in other professional sports. Teams and organisations get millions pumped into them and it results in them winning far more than before. You see it with soccer, rugby, track cycling and any sport really.
The only difference is that we are supposed to be an amateur sport. Buying titles should not be the way things are. Teams are meant to compete on an equal footing. It's not happening and it's wrong.

TrueGael

People should look at the rapid growth and success of Team GB Indoor Cycling and the negative effect it had on other sports of a similar level in terms of participation (in fact some like Basketball having a far higher participation rate). There are a lot of parallels with the situation we are facing with at the moment

1 https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2012/dec/17/british-cycling-other-sports-learn

2 https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/aug/15/brutal-but-effective-why-team-gb-is-winning-so-many-olympic-medals

3 https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/aug/17/team-gb-cycling-olympic-rivals-question-success-rio-2016


If you look at link 2 you will see there is a very strong correlation between the money invested and return in medals in the respective sports, indeed other sports like Basketball clearly aren't happy at the favouritism shown towards a far less popular sport in Cycling

From giving a quick glance at link 3 we see Team GB's competitors that are perplexed at how a country who had no serious history all of a sudden became a Juggernaut almost overnight in Cycling


Gaelic Games would be the only sport in history all over the world wheereby enormous and disproportionate investment in relation to its competitors didn't have an overwhelming impact on the sporting landscape

Bear in mind that in the Team GB case it was overtaking teams who were backed strongly by national governments in the GAA it is all relatively small local companies who put in a few bob just to keep the ship float not a load of mega wealthy foreign multinational companies pouring gold on top of gold

Powerhouse

DONTMATTER wrote: »

I think the extent of the financial doping is far worse than many people realise. It is a professional system which creates, develops and produces players through a system which involves highly paid coaches, trainers and is overseen by highly paid directors. This money comes from all of us regular GAA members, they then have gained huge sponsorship money off the back of the success bought by our money which means they can have a senior set up involving the huge backroom team of various coaches, world champions, physiologists etc etc
I was on a different GAA forum a few years ago and all what is happening now was predicted then. The financial doping has made it impossible for Dublin to fail, they have a professional set up in an amateur game. I will go into the financial doping in more detail when I have time. I first will just update a comparison list I created on the GAA forum I used to frequent that shows just how much millions upon millions can buy. The first list is of what Dublin won between 1990 and 2008, the second list is what's been won since.

Between 1990 and 2008:

Senior
Football
All Ireland Senior Football Champions: 1995
Leinster Senior Football Champions: 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 2002, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
National Football League Champions: 1991, 1993

Hurling
Leinster Senior Hurling Champions: None
National Hurling League Titles: None

U21
Football
All Ireland u21 Football Champions: 2003
Leinster u21 Football Champions: 2002, 2003, 2005

Hurling
Leinster u21 Hurling Champions: None

Minor
Football
All Ireland Minor Football Champions: None
Leinster Minor Football Champions: 1994, 1999, 2001, 2003

Hurling
Leinster Minor Hurling Champions: None
____________________________________________________________________

Between 2008 and 2018:

Senior
Football
All Ireland Senior Football Champions: 2011, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2017
Leinster Senior Football Champions: 2009, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017
National Football League Champions: 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2018

Hurling
Leinster Senior Hurling Champions: 2013
National Hurling League Titles: 2011

U21
Football
All Ireland u21 Football Champions: 2010, 2012, 2014, 2017
Leinster u21 Football Champions: 2009, 2010, 2012, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017

Hurling
Leinster u21 Hurling Champions: 2010, 2011, 2016

Minor
Football
All Ireland Minor Football Champions: 2012
Leinster Minor Football Champions: 2009, 2011, 2012, 2014, 2017

Hurling
Leinster Minor Hurling Champions: 2011, 2012, 2016

That's 20 titles between 1990 and 2008 and 43 titles in the last decade! That is crazy but it's what financial doping achieves.

This seeks to explain Dublin's success by simply stating what they have won while simultaneously mentioning financial doping and hoping the charge will stick and the two will be conflated. It doesn't deal with obvious questions such as why Dublin - if they are benefitting form huge numbers of coaches - have just one All-Ireland minor football title in 34 years while Kerry have four in the last four. It doesn't explain why in their five recent All Ireland final wins only a point has separated them from opponents who are seemingly not financially doped. Nor does it deal with the fact that similar senior success has been achieved in other counties down the years and it was not attributed to financial doping.

Also 18 of the 43 titles in the last decade have been achieved by the senior footballers. That has been the real statistical gamechanger. Maybe that success is particular to this group of players. Your statistics are guiding people by the nose towards conclusions which are not necessarily supported by the statistics when they are examined closely.

DONTMATTER

Powerhouse wrote: »

This seeks to explain Dublin's success by simply stating what they have won while simultaneously mentioning financial doping and hoping the charge will stick and the two will be conflated. It doesn't deal with obvious questions such as why Dublin - if they are benefitting form huge numbers of coaches - have just one All-Ireland minor football title in 34 years while Kerry have four in the last four. It doesn't explain why in their five recent All Ireland final wins only a point has separated them from opponents who are seemingly not financially doped. Nor does it deal with the fact that similar senior success has been achieved in other counties down the years and it was not attributed to financial doping.

Also 18 of the 43 titles in the last decade have been achieved by the senior footballers. That has been the real statistical gamechanger. Maybe that success is particular to this group of players. Your statistics are guiding people by the nose towards conclusions which are not necessarily supported by the statistics when they are examined closely.

The simple question is then; if money has nothing to do with Dublin's increased success, then when are they going to pay it all back?

Dublin should be winning more at minor level, there is no doubt but the strategic development officers have put more focus on developing senior inter county talent. This means they don't put all resources into their minor set up and hold it for the 18-21 age bracket where seniors are made.

That they've only won All Ireland's by a point is irrelevant. That they're winning All Ireland's at all is irrelevant. This financial doping would be unfair and anti what the GAA is meant to be about no matter what the results. Given the unprecedented advantages Dublin have, it's actually quite embarrassing to only win by such slim margins.

If you think teams in the past were financially doped then let's be hearing you. Compare what they were getting to the millions upon millions of euro Dublin GAA have received in recent years.

Firstly, if you take away the 18 titles from the senior footballers, you are still left with 25. Only 20 were won including the senior footballers between 1990 and 2008. It only has one explanation. Secondly, this myth that it's only a special group of players needs to be quashed. I've heard that one a long time ago too.
I was told that players like Cluxton, Connelly, Brogan and Flynn were one offs. This ignored the fact that those players were there in the naughties when Dublin were getting destroyed. Now only Cluxton is a regular, these aren't one offs. The production line of players, paid for by all of us, has won 5 All Ireland's so far and will win many more.

dunnerc

DONTMATTER wrote: »

The simple question is then; if money has nothing to do with Dublin's increased success, then when are they going to pay it all back?

Dublin should be winning more at minor level, there is no doubt but the strategic development officers have put more focus on developing senior inter county talent. This means they don't put all resources into their minor set up and hold it for the 18-21 age bracket where seniors are made.

That they've only won All Ireland's by a point is irrelevant. That they're winning All Ireland's at all is irrelevant. This financial doping would be unfair and anti what the GAA is meant to be about no matter what the results. Given the unprecedented advantages Dublin have, it's actually quite embarrassing to only win by such slim margins.

If you think teams in the past were financially doped then let's be hearing you. Compare what they were getting to the millions upon millions of euro Dublin GAA have received in recent years.

Firstly, if you take away the 18 titles from the senior footballers, you are still left with 25. Only 20 were won including the senior footballers between 1990 and 2008. It only has one explanation. Secondly, this myth that it's only a special group of players needs to be quashed. I've heard that one a long time ago too.
I was told that players like Cluxton, Connelly, Brogan and Flynn were one offs. This ignored the fact that those players were there in the naughties when Dublin were getting destroyed. Now only Cluxton is a regular, these aren't one offs. The production line of players, paid for by all of us, has won 5 All Ireland's so far and will win many more.

Any chance of giving me the lotto numbers for this Saturday

Powerhouse

DONTMATTER wrote: »

The simple question is then; if money has nothing to do with Dublin's increased success, then when are they going to pay it all back?


Who said money had nothing to do with Dublin's increased success? Sure if someone hands you a tenner for a juvenile football it can be argued that is has something to do with a county's increased success. And, incidentally, if Dublin are to be required to pay back funds on the basis that it contributes nothing to success, would you require the counties that win nothing at all to pay back all their funding on the basis that it's achieving nothing? We wouldn't have different rules for them now would we?

That they've only won All Ireland's by a point is irrelevant.



It is relevant in showing that some of the margins of vctory are in no way commensurate with funding disparities and crude attempts to draw straight lines between success and funding are just that.



That they're winning All Ireland's at all is irrelevant.



Of course it's relevant. The discussion of funding for Dublin wouldn't even arise if they weren't winning.



Given the unprecedented advantages Dublin have, it's actually quite embarrassing to only win by such slim margins.


But you said earlier that the margins are irrelavant? Which is it?!


If you think teams in the past were financially doped then let's be hearing you.



If you point out where I said that I'll happily deal with it. Probably better to be hearing me on stuff I have actually said.



Firstly, if you take away the 18 titles from the senior footballers, you are still left with 25. Only 20 were won including the senior footballers between 1990 and 2008. It only has one explanation.



25.................20..................whatever the one explanation might be is the difference statistically when you take away the recent success of the senior footballers is not significant whereas 43 v 20 is. The original poster tried to camouflage this in a haze of statistics but failed to do so.



Secondly, this myth that it's only a special group of players needs to be quashed. I've heard that one a long time ago too.I was told that players like Cluxton, Connelly, Brogan and Flynn were one offs. This ignored the fact that those players were there in the naughties when Dublin were getting destroyed. Now only Cluxton is a regular, these aren't one offs.



I can't comment on this as it requires me to have to be able to see into the future. Maybe Dublin's success will dry up before September this year. I have no idea. That's why I said that "Maybe that success is particular to this group of players". It's too early for me to say what you are saying that Dublin will win many more All-Irelands in the current era. In a debate which is being informed to an extent at least by statistics I can comment only on available evidence and not future speculation.



But I will say that there are plenty of examples in football history where players played in teams being hammered and went on to enjoy sterling reputations and great success. Michael Murphy played on a Donegal team which lost to Antrim in Ballybofey in an Ulster quarter-final three years before winning an All-Ireland.



The production line of players, paid for by all of us, has won 5 All Ireland's so far and will win many more.

I would be slow enough to play this particuklar tune. Bear in mind that no county packs grounds and as such contribuites to the GAA's coffers like Dublin does. What pairing other than one involving Dublin could fill Croke Park for a League Final as happened a few years ago? I'd say there are many counties who supporters don't pay their county's way but expect a slice of the funding cake.

DONTMATTER

Have a look at post 104, the poster posts articles which show how increased funding leads to increased success.
Have a good read of them.


It doesn't matter if they win by one, 20, lose the game, whatever, the funding is wrong. Full stop. People have been discussing this for years, long before their current run. It has to end.

That's separate to the actual fact that with all their advantages it's impossible to fail. You understand the difference?


Why bring it up then? The reason Dublin and financial doping comes up is because of the millions Dublin GAA have received. The reason past teams and financial doping wasn't discussed was because they didn't receive millions of euro. You understand?


This next point is hilarious!! I am the original poster and if you take away the senior footballers titles from both their recent run and the period between 1990 and 2008, you have totals of 25 and 8!


I've just shown you it's not one group of players!


So because they make the GAA some money, Dublin should be bought titles?

Do you believe that it's a freak coincidence that Dublin had a huge increase in winning titles which coincided with a huge increase in funding?

largepants

Patww79 wrote: »

You can hear something but hearing doesn't automatically mean agreeing.

It also means you don't ridilcule someone for having a different opinion.

OldMrBrennan83

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blanch152

DONTMATTER wrote: »

Yeah I've heard that one before as well. Splitting Dublin to make it somewhat fair after over a decade of millions upon millions pumped into Dublin GAA will result in other counties having to join together. It's completely nonsensical.
At the moment Dublin are like 3 big counties joined together, why would we try to replicate that?

It really depends though, doesn't it?

Are you interested in changing county boundaries to secure a more competitive championship all round? If you are, then combining counties as well as splitting Dublin is on the table.

Are you only interested in knocking Dublin down so that one of Kerry, Mayo, Cork or Meath can benefit? Well, then you only want the splitting of Dublin as Carlow/Wicklow or Limerick/Clare would scare you. I have no time for this special pleading and whinging.

If the real issue is an even competition, then combining as well as splitting have to be on the table. If people want to protect county boundaries, then they have to protect them all. I don't have an issue with either position.

TrueGael

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Dublin#Local_authorities

But the counties (all of them with huge populations) in the Dublin Region are combined together everyone else just gets the pick of their county and some of these have very small playing pools and resources VS a conglomerate of 4 incredibly wealthy counties put together

largepants

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I don't mean you are ridiculing anyone. But posters are being ridiculed for having a different opinion.

Patww79 wrote: »

The Gael is here at last. Now it'll become obvious why this was necessary.

This post above proves the real reason for your thread. You are courting hostility to draw out the 'anti Dubs'. That one is obvious.

Powerhouse

DONTMATTER wrote: »

So because they make the GAA some money, Dublin should be bought titles?

Do you believe that it's a freak coincidence that Dublin had a huge increase in winning titles which coincided with a huge increase in funding?

So because they make the GAA some money, Dublin should be bought titles?

This is the kind of non-sequitur mad conclusion which really undermines your argument.

Do you believe that it's a freak coincidence that Dublin had a huge increase in winning titles which coincided with a huge increase in funding?

To answer this directly, I think it's too early to say. I know there are large numbers of under-age coaches in Dublin, for example, but there's no evidence of Dublin dominating Minor football in Leinster. They've won two of the last five titles. Kerry have won five from five in Munster. Galway have won the last three in Connacht. Extra coaches I am sure increase participation levels and elongate young people's involvement in sport but there's no evidence that it is corrupting competition. And at Minor level arguably it should be more apparent as Dublin should have the ability to replenish their numbers more easily than smaller counties whereas at Senior level other counties can get maybe a decade from a bunch of Senior players. The advantage of numbers which should be accentuated by funding and coaching at younger age-groups is not apparent.

I have heard the arguments before about the correlation between money and success but again the long-run has not always proven it. Two years ago know-alls were shaking their heads over the probability that the European Champions Cup trophy would never again leave France or England as they sought alternative explanations for the decreased competitiveness of certain teams but that didn't come to pass this year. Conclusions were arrived at too early without sufficient evidence which only time can provide.

Likewise a decade and a half ago you'd nearly have had to take cover from all the wise guys who bleated on about the "Aussies" who were civilised enough to know that nothing mattered like sport and the were investing hugely in it and showing the results. You tend not to hear the same people talking these days about how that country's Olympic performance has dropped and about how shocking the record of their Super Rugby teams is. Again conclusions were arrived at too early without sufficient evidence which only time can provide.

It is possible indeed that Dublin's current success is informed by various factors such as the decline in Leinster football generally, the recent decline of Ulster football and Cork too, as well as the improved performance of the Dublin team itself. Only history will judge that.

In 2009 Kerry beat Dublin by 17 points in the All-Ireland quarter final. On that day Dublin players included: Stephen Cluxton, Denis Bastick, Paddy Andrews, Bryan Cullen, Barry Cahill, Paul Flynn, Diarmuid Connolly, Bernard Brogan, Alan Brogan and Cian O’Sullivan. Two years later the same players having been outscored 0-8 to 0-3 between the 35th minute and the 63rd minute came back to beat Kerry in the last ten minutes of the All-Ireland. Funding does not explain that.

The same type of people who sneered at Dublin for performances such as 2009 have always failed to give them credit for a performance like 2011 and the extraordinary transformation brought about by management in recent years. The extent to which that has contributed to Dublin's extraordinary success will too be judged by history. It is far too early to be overly-prescriptive in the entire matter in my view.

Hurling Rankings

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DONTMATTER

blanch152 wrote: »

It really depends though, doesn't it?

Are you interested in changing county boundaries to secure a more competitive championship all round? If you are, then combining counties as well as splitting Dublin is on the table.

Are you only interested in knocking Dublin down so that one of Kerry, Mayo, Cork or Meath can benefit? Well, then you only want the splitting of Dublin as Carlow/Wicklow or Limerick/Clare would scare you. I have no time for this special pleading and whinging.

If the real issue is an even competition, then combining as well as splitting have to be on the table. If people want to protect county boundaries, then they have to protect them all. I don't have an issue with either position.

No, everyone should compete on an equal footing. That's all that should be happening and that's what was happening. Look at the Leinster championship prior to the multi million euro injection into Dublin GAA. It was wide open.

DONTMATTER

Powerhouse wrote: »

So because they make the GAA some money, Dublin should be bought titles?

This is the kind of non-sequitur mad conclusion which really undermines your argument.

Do you believe that it's a freak coincidence that Dublin had a huge increase in winning titles which coincided with a huge increase in funding?

To answer this directly, I think it's too early to say. I know there are large numbers of under-age coaches in Dublin, for example, but there's no evidence of Dublin dominating Minor football in Leinster. They've won two of the last five titles. Kerry have won five from five in Munster. Galway have won the last three in Connacht. Extra coaches I am sure increase participation levels and elongate young people's involvement in sport but there's no evidence that it is corrupting competition. And at Minor level arguably it should be more apparent as Dublin should have the ability to replenish their numbers more easily than smaller counties whereas at Senior level other counties can get maybe a decade from a bunch of Senior players. The advantage of numbers which should be accentuated by funding and coaching at younger age-groups is not apparent.

I have heard the arguments before about the correlation between money and success but again the long-run has not always proven it. Two years ago know-alls were shaking their heads over the probability that the European Champions Cup trophy would never again leave France or England as they sought alternative explanations for the decreased competitiveness of certain teams but that didn't come to pass this year. Conclusions were arrived at too early without sufficient evidence which only time can provide.

Likewise a decade and a half ago you'd nearly have had to take cover from all the wise guys who bleated on about the "Aussies" who were civilised enough to know that nothing mattered like sport and the were investing hugely in it and showing the results. You tend not to hear the same people talking these days about how that country's Olympic performance has dropped and about how shocking the record of their Super Rugby teams is. Again conclusions were arrived at too early without sufficient evidence which only time can provide.

It is possible indeed that Dublin's current success is informed by various factors such as the decline in Leinster football generally, the recent decline of Ulster football and Cork too, as well as the improved performance of the Dublin team itself. Only history will judge that.

In 2009 Kerry beat Dublin by 17 points in the All-Ireland quarter final. On that day Dublin players included: Stephen Cluxton, Denis Bastick, Paddy Andrews, Bryan Cullen, Barry Cahill, Paul Flynn, Diarmuid Connolly, Bernard Brogan, Alan Brogan and Cian O’Sullivan. Two years later the same players having been outscored 0-8 to 0-3 between the 35th minute and the 63rd minute came back to beat Kerry in the last ten minutes of the All-Ireland. Funding does not explain that.

The same type of people who sneered at Dublin for performances such as 2009 have always failed to give them credit for a performance like 2011 and the extraordinary transformation brought about by management in recent years. The extent to which that has contributed to Dublin's extraordinary success will too be judged by history. It is far too early to be overly-prescriptive in the entire matter in my view.

So it's irrelevant to the massive funding issue.


You've ignored the huge increase in titles that I pointed out for you. It's not a coincidence. It's a direct result of the funding. It has improved all areas of Dublin GAA. Having a huge number of paid coaches in the Dublin club scene will improve standards, how could it not?
Let's have a look at the record of Dublin club teams. They've won 9 Leinster titles since the funding started in 2005 and 4 All Ireland's in football. It took a bit longer but in hurling it's 2 Leinster titles and 2 All Ireland's. The first time ever a Dublin team has won a hurling club. Is this just a crazy coincidence as well?

I've already told you that the strategic and development officers (all paid), pay closer attention to developing seniors than minors. The 18-21 age group is where there is serious work done. That's not to say that the standard of their minors are poor, they've won 5 recent Leinster titles.

You are comparing professional sports to an amateur sport. It's not an appropriate comparison.

Do you want to know the difference between 2009 and 2011? It was Mick Fitzsimons, Rory O'Carroll, Cian O'Sullivan, James McCarthy, Kevin Nolan (man of the match in the final), MD Macauley. Basically a new defence, where did they come from? They came through the multi million euro system. So funding does explain that.
It was the same manager in 2009 and 2011 also, so this "extraordinary transformation" didn't come through management. The proof is there for all to see.

DONTMATTER

Hurling Rankings wrote: »

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Population alone was never a problem, they had that advantage but every county competed with what they had. It's when they were given huge resources, multiples of what any other county was getting, that things changed.

The sponsorship increased hugely when Dublin became successful, how did they become successful? As I've shown, it was through huge funding. A lot of that funding came from all of us.

They got fistfuls of money and they got highly paid individuals to organise the spending and put in place structures.

5 All Ireland's since 2011. Before that they got 1 since 1983. This is ignoring all the other titles that they've racked up, I listed them earlier. This most definitely was an issue a decade ago. It became more of an issue when other counties were being denied funding while Dublin racked it in.

dobman88

@DONTMATTER. When you say other counties were being denied funding but Dublin raked it in. Are you suggesting a type of GAA conspiracy to make Dublin better and win All Irelands whilst weakening other counties?

I can only speak from what I've seen in Kerry but they don't seem to have an issue with funding, the new GAA centre of excellence looks top notch. Pretty sure I've seen similar set ups on my travels in Mayo and Meath but I'm not 100% sure. Surely that counts as funding.

Add into that the likes of Kerry, Mayo, Tyrone would all command big sponsorship deals then it weakens the argument for funding issues. Surely it's up to each county board to ensure they're getting a fair slice of the pie?

blanch152

TrueGael wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Dublin#Local_authorities

But the counties (all of them with huge populations) in the Dublin Region are combined together everyone else just gets the pick of their county and some of these have very small playing pools and resources VS a conglomerate of 4 incredibly wealthy counties put together

If you are to define counties by local authority area, you would also have to split Cork and Galway into city and county.

There is no consistency or logic to the proposal to split Dublin. To make the championship more competitive, combining as well as splitting must be on the table.

May Contain Small Parts

Just a suggestion, not trying to moan or say anything is broken:

Does anybody else think that in the long term that the GAA should move away from the county system altogether?

I get that people like it and are invested in their counties, but I don't think this or old chestnuts like the "amateur ethos" above club level are the things that make the GAA what it is. I'd be in favour of creating 10-20 regional teams, divided up with fairly even population/player numbers but also looking at local identity and tradition.

Not easy at all and there'd be a lot of moaning as people get used to it, but I think we would and it would help the GAA be more successful over the next 100 years.

Splitting Dublin is knee-jerk. It might help the likes of Donegal/Mayo/Kerry, but not the counties who are struggling.

DONTMATTER

dobman88 wrote: »

@DONTMATTER. When you say other counties were being denied funding but Dublin raked it in. Are you suggesting a type of GAA conspiracy to make Dublin better and win All Irelands whilst weakening other counties?

I can only speak from what I've seen in Kerry but they don't seem to have an issue with funding, the new GAA centre of excellence looks top notch. Pretty sure I've seen similar set ups on my travels in Mayo and Meath but I'm not 100% sure. Surely that counts as funding.

Add into that the likes of Kerry, Mayo, Tyrone would all command big sponsorship deals then it weakens the argument for funding issues. Surely it's up to each county board to ensure they're getting a fair slice of the pie?

Well there is no doubt that the plan was made from those in charge to make Dublin a bigger force. Peter Quinn said "Dublin is not a national problem, it's a national opportunity." Sean Kelly said "make Dublin what it should be - the greatest GAA county in Ireland".
Why would they say these things? Obviously it was financially motivated. If we make Dublin a superpower, then we get bigger crowds, we get larger tv audiences, we get increased advertising and so on, that was the thinking.
So a plan was put in place, it wasn't just over night. It took a few years and a lot of discussions. The plan was to go into schools, go into clubs, putting in place structures to develop elite talent.
This wouldn't just run itself, as I mentioned earlier. Highly paid people were put in the ensure it went to plan. There was a strategic program manager, regional development officers, hurling development officers and the games promotion officers.
Then of course they had the man in power to make it all possible. Bertie. He granted them the money. A yearly windfall donated by the citizens of Ireland. A mixture of this and other money was the final piece of the jigsaw.
All was set up to make a conveyor belt of talent, this arrived and we've seen the results. Because this system is still in place, they still receive the 'Bertie money', the conveyor belt will continue.

This is a separate issue from centres of excellence and county grounds. Dublin get more of their fair share of that also. This is about actually paying for the development of players, no other county has anything like it.

Hurling Rankings

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DONTMATTER

Hurling Rankings wrote: »

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Well can you come up with a reasonable explanation for this?

Between 1990 and 2008:

Senior
Football
All Ireland Senior Football Champions: 1995
Leinster Senior Football Champions: 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 2002, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
National Football League Champions: 1991, 1993

Hurling
Leinster Senior Hurling Champions: None
National Hurling League Titles: None

U21
Football
All Ireland u21 Football Champions: 2003
Leinster u21 Football Champions: 2002, 2003, 2005

Hurling
Leinster u21 Hurling Champions: None

Minor
Football
All Ireland Minor Football Champions: None
Leinster Minor Football Champions: 1994, 1999, 2001, 2003

Hurling
Leinster Minor Hurling Champions: None
____________________________________________________________________

Between 2008 and 2018:

Senior
Football
All Ireland Senior Football Champions: 2011, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2017
Leinster Senior Football Champions: 2009, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017
National Football League Champions: 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2018

Hurling
Leinster Senior Hurling Champions: 2013
National Hurling League Titles: 2011

U21
Football
All Ireland u21 Football Champions: 2010, 2012, 2014, 2017
Leinster u21 Football Champions: 2009, 2010, 2012, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017

Hurling
Leinster u21 Hurling Champions: 2010, 2011, 2016

Minor
Football
All Ireland Minor Football Champions: 2012
Leinster Minor Football Champions: 2009, 2011, 2012, 2014, 2017

Hurling
Leinster Minor Hurling Champions: 2011, 2012, 2016



That's 20 titles between 1990 and 2008 and 43 titles in the last decade!

Hurling Rankings

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DONTMATTER

Hurling Rankings wrote: »

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They were underachieving all along but suddenly started achieving at the exact same time millions upon millions were pumped in but, it had nothing to do with the money, it's just a freak coincidence?

If it was just one element of Dublin GAA improving it could be explained away ie. the senior footballers are just a one off. What can't be explained away is the improvement in all areas of Dublin GAA.

How can you explain the improvement in Dublin hurling in all age groups?
How can you explain the improvement in Dublin football in all age groups?
How can you explain the improvement in Dublin club teams performance in hurling and football?

There's only one answer. It's the money. Can you give me an alternative answer? Can anybody?

Gravelly

I'm not from Dublin, and long for their footballers to lose, but I don't think they should be split - Dublin are winning now because they are maximising resources they squandered for many years. They deserve success for this, not to be punished for it. In a couple of years, they will be caught up by one of the likes of Kerry, Mayo, Tyrone, or possibly, Galway or Cork, and we will have a more competitive landscape again.

DONTMATTER

Here's a few predictions.

What will the results of the financial doping be?

Well we already see that the Leinster championship is dead. Other teams can't compete, players are dropping away, attendances are dropping. 5 All Ireland's since 2011 and 3 in a row is showing that they have a stranglehold on every county. This will continue, why? Because the highly financed conveyor belt continues.
This will lead to a repeat of what we see in Leinster, players dropping away and attendances dropping. The stop gap measure for now is the super 8's. This will keep attendance numbers up for a while.
For lesser counties it means you are going to be throw to the dogs. You can hear all the suggestions of the B championship gaining traction. You don't deserve to be on the same pitch as the mighty Dubs so off to play at your own level. Like I noted earlier, how many Joe McDonagh cup games have been shown on the Sunday Game? It will be the death of football in these counties. There's no recovering from that.
For other counties lucky enough to be allowed on the same pitch as Dublin, if you don't have money you can forget about it. We can see that counties like Mayo, Kerry and Donegal have stayed somewhat competitive off the back of major investment. This isn't sustainable. It's another stop gap measure by counties like these to hang onto the coattails of Dublin. It won't last.

A hurling All Ireland will be won by Dublin within the next 8 years. Complete domination will continue in Gaelic Football. They will win 7 of the next 8, that will be 12 titles in 15 years.

These are my predictions.

Hurling Rankings

This post has been deleted.

DONTMATTER

Hurling Rankings wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

There have been none to explain the increase from 20 titles in 18 years between 1990 and 2008 to 43 between 2008 and now. Absolutely none.

And of course there can't be. The reason for the increase is simple and undeniable.

Powerhouse

DONTMATTER wrote: »

Well can you come up with a reasonable explanation for this?

Between 1990 and 2008:

Senior
Football
All Ireland Senior Football Champions: 1995
Leinster Senior Football Champions: 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 2002, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
National Football League Champions: 1991, 1993

Hurling
Leinster Senior Hurling Champions: None
National Hurling League Titles: None

U21
Football
All Ireland u21 Football Champions: 2003
Leinster u21 Football Champions: 2002, 2003, 2005

Hurling
Leinster u21 Hurling Champions: None

Minor
Football
All Ireland Minor Football Champions: None
Leinster Minor Football Champions: 1994, 1999, 2001, 2003

Hurling
Leinster Minor Hurling Champions: None
____________________________________________________________________

Between 2008 and 2018:

Senior
Football
All Ireland Senior Football Champions: 2011, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2017
Leinster Senior Football Champions: 2009, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017
National Football League Champions: 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2018

Hurling
Leinster Senior Hurling Champions: 2013
National Hurling League Titles: 2011

U21
Football
All Ireland u21 Football Champions: 2010, 2012, 2014, 2017
Leinster u21 Football Champions: 2009, 2010, 2012, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017

Hurling
Leinster u21 Hurling Champions: 2010, 2011, 2016

Minor
Football
All Ireland Minor Football Champions: 2012
Leinster Minor Football Champions: 2009, 2011, 2012, 2014, 2017

Hurling
Leinster Minor Hurling Champions: 2011, 2012, 2016



That's 20 titles between 1990 and 2008 and 43 titles in the last decade!

You keep repeating this as if you have stumbled upon the fourth secret of Fatima. As I said before the real outlier here is the senior footballers who have won several All Irelands and National Leagues which bulks up the figure. For example, Dublin winning ONE minor football title since 2008 is hardly signs of a revolution. In fact their failure to be more competitive at that grade since 1984 was remarkable.

I just don't get why the Dublin minor and under-21 hurlers winning a few provincial titles should be cited as a matter for concern. Wexford won the Leinster under-21 titles of 2013. '14 & '15. The last Leinster champions to win a national Under-21 hurling title contained TJ Reid who is now 30 years old. It's hardly as if Dublin are producing wonder-teams. They were the best team a few years in a poor enough championship. No big deal really. Dublin clearly have made more of an effort in hurling in recent years but let's not try to attach that statistically to the success of the footballers as if it's a competitive threat to everyone. Hurling accounts for 8 titles which helps to exaggerate the gap in the figures you cite but on its own is not significant.

harpsman

I was just wondering as a matter of interest: would people prefer to support a team that wins say 4-5 provincials and 1-2 all irelands per decade or a team that wins 8-9 provincials and 4-5 all irelands?


Personally Id much rather my team won the lesser amount; personally i think the only thing more depressing than supporting a team that has virtually no chance of winning is supporting a team that has virtually no chance of losing.


If you split Dublin in 2 youd have 2 brilliant teams who would expext to be in with a shout of winning most years, would have a great local rivalry-theres a natural rivalry ready made- and local derbies and would both win plenty.


Also you'd have a sense of achievement when winning the Leinster championship rather than the current farce.

odyssey06

harpsman wrote: »

I was just wondering as a matter of interest: would people prefer to support a team that wins say 4-5 provincials and 1-2 all irelands per decade or a team that wins 8-9 provincials and 4-5 all irelands?

The Brazilian national soccer team didn't voluntarily split, nor the Kilkenny hurlers, nor the Kerry footballers during their eras of dominance, or the All Blacks in rugby - and I don't recall much clamour from their supporters to do so.
So your sense of ... challenge... would be in the minority I think.

blanch152

DONTMATTER wrote: »

Well there is no doubt that the plan was made from those in charge to make Dublin a bigger force. Peter Quinn said "Dublin is not a national problem, it's a national opportunity." Sean Kelly said "make Dublin what it should be - the greatest GAA county in Ireland".
Why would they say these things? Obviously it was financially motivated. If we make Dublin a superpower, then we get bigger crowds, we get larger tv audiences, we get increased advertising and so on, that was the thinking.
So a plan was put in place, it wasn't just over night. It took a few years and a lot of discussions. The plan was to go into schools, go into clubs, putting in place structures to develop elite talent.
This wouldn't just run itself, as I mentioned earlier. Highly paid people were put in the ensure it went to plan. There was a strategic program manager, regional development officers, hurling development officers and the games promotion officers.
Then of course they had the man in power to make it all possible. Bertie. He granted them the money. A yearly windfall donated by the citizens of Ireland. A mixture of this and other money was the final piece of the jigsaw.
All was set up to make a conveyor belt of talent, this arrived and we've seen the results. Because this system is still in place, they still receive the 'Bertie money', the conveyor belt will continue.

This is a separate issue from centres of excellence and county grounds. Dublin get more of their fair share of that also. This is about actually paying for the development of players, no other county has anything like it.

The plan was to go into schools and clubs and get the young people of Dublin involved in sport, to improve their health, their communities and their lives. There was increasing evidence that urbanisation had reduced the amount of time spent by young people in active sport and that funding was required to increase participation rates etc. Bailey et al. demonstrated to Bertie that the return in terms of taking people off the dole, paying taxes, reducing healthcare costs and crime would mean that the project would actually bring a positive return to the taxpayer.

That was what it was all about, helping kids, nothing to do with TV revenue or the rest of your rant.

Of course, I am sure that the rest of the GAA sporting community would have preferred if the money had gone to soccer or rugby rather than our national games, but anyway.

Finally, and this is the most important point, the money was equally spent on hurling as well as football, yet Dublin aren't winning all round them in hurling. So perhaps money doesn't equal success despite all the protestations.

blanch152

harpsman wrote: »

I was just wondering as a matter of interest: would people prefer to support a team that wins say 4-5 provincials and 1-2 all irelands per decade or a team that wins 8-9 provincials and 4-5 all irelands?


Personally Id much rather my team won the lesser amount; personally i think the only thing more depressing than supporting a team that has virtually no chance of winning is supporting a team that has virtually no chance of losing.


If you split Dublin in 2 youd have 2 brilliant teams who would expext to be in with a shout of winning most years, would have a great local rivalry-theres a natural rivalry ready made- and local derbies and would both win plenty.


Also you'd have a sense of achievement when winning the Leinster championship rather than the current farce.

You would have to ask Kerry or Kilkenny supporters that question, it really isn't one for a Dublin thread, well not yet anyway.

corny

harpsman wrote: »

I was just wondering as a matter of interest: would people prefer to support a team that wins say 4-5 provincials and 1-2 all irelands per decade or a team that wins 8-9 provincials and 4-5 all irelands?

I don't know about splitting Dublin in two but definitely the former. The Leinster championship means nothing to me anymore. I'm on the verge of supporting the opposition just for the laugh and i'm more excited about seeing Carlow Laois in Croke Park this Sunday.

In the All Ireland series? The games are tighter but I still expect Dublin to win every game, even against Mayo. Its still great to win but it definitely knocks the excitement pre and post game when you think the result is inevitable.

Powerhouse

harpsman wrote: »

I was just wondering as a matter of interest: would people prefer to support a team that wins say 4-5 provincials and 1-2 all irelands per decade or a team that wins 8-9 provincials and 4-5 all irelands?


Personally Id much rather my team won the lesser amount; personally i think the only thing more depressing than supporting a team that has virtually no chance of winning is supporting a team that has virtually no chance of losing.

QUOTE]

I very much doubt if this is the case in reality. Generally most supporters I have ever made have little concern privately for the general health of a sport once their team is winning. If you watch the English soccer teams people support it's more often than not the well-known successful teams because people enjoy the vicarious glow that comes from success and enjoy belittling anyone associated with teams that have a lack of success. It is also evident in the crowds that follow successful GAA teams - there seems to be far less attraction to games when the team is less successful.

DONTMATTER

Powerhouse wrote: »

You keep repeating this as if you have stumbled upon the fourth secret of Fatima. As I said before the real outlier here is the senior footballers who have won several All Irelands and National Leagues which bulks up the figure. For example, Dublin winning ONE minor football title since 2008 is hardly signs of a revolution. In fact their failure to be more competitive at that grade since 1984 was remarkable.

I just don't get why the Dublin minor and under-21 hurlers winning a few provincial titles should be cited as a matter for concern. Wexford won the Leinster under-21 titles of 2013. '14 & '15. The last Leinster champions to win a national Under-21 hurling title contained TJ Reid who is now 30 years old. It's hardly as if Dublin are producing wonder-teams. They were the best team a few years in a poor enough championship. No big deal really. Dublin clearly have made more of an effort in hurling in recent years but let's not try to attach that statistically to the success of the footballers as if it's a competitive threat to everyone. Hurling accounts for 8 titles which helps to exaggerate the gap in the figures you cite but on its own is not significant.

I keep repeating it because it shows what money can buy. It's been proved time and again in other sports. This shows that the GAA is no different. Money = success.

I've already taken you up on that point, take away the senior football titles from both lists and you're still left with 25 v 8! That's 25 provincial and All Ireland's in the last 10 years v 8 in the previous 18. You can't just ignore these facts because it doesn't suit you.

And again with the minor titles, they've won 5 Leinsters in recent years and they concentrate on the 18-21 age group.

You'll basically do anything but mention the money. It's ok, I've heard all this before. All the excuses have been done, all the deflection, all the whataboutery. The facts speak for themselves.
Cause and effect. Dublin received truck loads of money, Dublin won truck loads of titles.

DONTMATTER

odyssey06 wrote: »

The Brazilian national soccer team didn't voluntarily split, nor the Kilkenny hurlers, nor the Kerry footballers during their eras of dominance, or the All Blacks in rugby - and I don't recall much clamour from their supporters to do so.
So your sense of ... challenge... would be in the minority I think.

How many of those got funding at a far higher level to all their competitors?

DONTMATTER

blanch152 wrote: »

The plan was to go into schools and clubs and get the young people of Dublin involved in sport, to improve their health, their communities and their lives. There was increasing evidence that urbanisation had reduced the amount of time spent by young people in active sport and that funding was required to increase participation rates etc. Bailey et al. demonstrated to Bertie that the return in terms of taking people off the dole, paying taxes, reducing healthcare costs and crime would mean that the project would actually bring a positive return to the taxpayer.

That was what it was all about, helping kids, nothing to do with TV revenue or the rest of your rant.

Of course, I am sure that the rest of the GAA sporting community would have preferred if the money had gone to soccer or rugby rather than our national games, but anyway.

Finally, and this is the most important point, the money was equally spent on hurling as well as football, yet Dublin aren't winning all round them in hurling. So perhaps money doesn't equal success despite all the protestations.

All these I've heard before. That was the PR spin put on it. The quotes I gave you from Peter Quinn and Sean Kelly are more accurate. It was a mutually beneficial arrangement. We bankroll you and we get our returns. As we all know the GAA is filled with business people now, the actual health of the game comes secondary to making as much money as possible.
And I don't know if you've noticed but the money is still piling in. I think most of us would prefer if that money got spread out between all the counties.

Are you forgetting where Dublin hurling was? In 2004 they got destroyed by Offaly, in 2005 they lost to Laois by 4 goals, in 2006 they lost to Westmeath, that was their level. The money was pumped in, the improvements came and it resulted in Dublin winning a National title and a Leinster championship at senior level, 3 Leinster u21's and 3 Leinster minors. Do you know how many counties would be delighted with that? It's actually further proof that money works.

odyssey06

DONTMATTER wrote: »

How many of those got funding at a far higher level to all their competitors?

I don't know, but frankly I don't think the fans of Brazil, Kerry, Kilkenny and New Zealand gave a damn either way, which was the point I was responding to. Nor, does the sports fans of Brazil care nearly as much about rugby, Kerry about hurling, Kilkenny about football and New Zealand about soccer.

Should we take it that your emphasis on the funding aspect means you think that talk of splitting Dublin is a red herring? If there's no change in funding basis, then all splitting Dublin will do is create two Dublin teams battling it out at the top?

odyssey06

DONTMATTER wrote: »

Are you forgetting where Dublin hurling was? In 2004 they got destroyed by Offaly, in 2005 they lost to Laois by 4 goals, in 2006 they lost to Westmeath, that was their level. The money was pumped in, the improvements came and it resulted in Dublin winning a National title and a Leinster championship at senior level, 3 Leinster u21's and 3 Leinster minors. Do you know how many counties would be delighted with that? It's actually further proof that money works.

And in the late 80s and early 90s they reached National League semifinals, two Leinster finals and only lost to Kilkenny by two points... then dropped away.

Dublin won Leinster in 2013. This season they were in a relegation playoff.

Has the funding dried up already? Or maybe they had a cycle of good players? Why has the money stopped working?

DONTMATTER

odyssey06 wrote: »

I don't know, but frankly I don't think the fans of Brazil, Kerry, Kilkenny and New Zealand gave a damn either way, which was the point I was responding to. Nor, does the sports fans of Brazil care nearly as much about rugby, Kerry about hurling, Kilkenny about football and New Zealand about soccer.

Should we take it that your emphasis on the funding aspect means you think that talk of splitting Dublin is a red herring? If there's no change in funding basis, then all splitting Dublin will do is create two Dublin teams battling it out at the top?

That has been my point, those teams you listed don't care about how they won. Same with Dublin, as we see from the responses here, their supporters elsewhere, their former players, their county board and so on, they do not care. That's why it's up to the rest of us to stand up for what's right. Or else it will just continue.

I think Dublin should be split into more than two, the money that's held aside for Dublin should be redistributed amongst all other counties. I could go into more detail but we have to get the idea that our games are supposed to be fair and equal firstly. We can't let this continue, once we've all reached that point, then we can discuss the next step.

DONTMATTER

odyssey06 wrote: »

And in the late 80s and early 90s they reached National League semifinals, two Leinster finals and only lost to Kilkenny by two points... then dropped away.

Dublin won Leinster in 2013. This season they were in a relegation playoff.

Has the funding dried up already? Or maybe they had a cycle of good players? Why has the money stopped working?

I don't know the reason for the late 80's/early 90's team.

This season Dublin nearly beat Kilkenny and Wexford and destroyed Offaly. The teams they used to compete with, Laois, Antrim and Westmeath are in the Joe McDonagh cup. Dublin won the Leinster minor and u21 hurling championships in 2016. The money hasn't dried up, the cycle of good players has lasted over a decade at this stage (yes, the same length as the funding amazingly) and the money is working.

odyssey06

DONTMATTER wrote: »

That has been my point, those teams you listed don't care about how they won. Same with Dublin, as we see from the responses here, their supporters elsewhere, their former players, their county board and so on, they do not care. That's why it's up to the rest of us to stand up for what's right. Or else it will just continue.

It's the same with sports fans in every sport, in every country and county in Ireland. And some of those same sports fans will make every allegation in book of doping, financial, medical, skullduggery with referees etc
Read the Italian newspapers after Italy loses at soccer.
It signifies nothing to the issue at hand, it just means that sports fans are partial. Just because fans don't care about something, it doesn't make that allegation true.

I think Dublin should be split into more than two, the money that's held aside for Dublin should be redistributed amongst all other counties. I could go into more detail but we have to get the idea that our games are supposed to be fair and equal firstly. We can't let this continue, once we've all reached that point, then we can discuss the next step.

That's not enough. How do you ensure equality between Cork and Carlow footballers? How is it ever going to be equal, if different counties have different populations? What do we do with New York? How do you arrange equality between Kilkenny and Kerry in both codes? Will they swap hurlers for footballers?
The logical conclusion of your argument is the abandonment of the county system. If that's where your argument is going, please make it.

But ultimately, sports are not about equality. The GAA in 1980 to 2010 was not equal. Did Leitrim ever start a football season with the same chance of victory as Kerry?
If equality was what mattered, we would have a draft system like in American sports, and the best U21s would be doled out to the worst performing counties every year, and Ireland would be divided up into let's say 24 counties of equal population.

Fairness exists in the application of the rules to all teams impartially. Sport is about glory and skill and the limits of what is possible for human athletes. It has not and never been about equality.

ArielAtom

No.

odyssey06

DONTMATTER wrote: »

I don't know the reason for the late 80's/early 90's team.
This season Dublin nearly beat Kilkenny and Wexford and destroyed Offaly. The teams they used to compete with, Laois, Antrim and Westmeath are in the Joe McDonagh cup. Dublin won the Leinster minor and u21 hurling championships in 2016. The money hasn't dried up, the cycle of good players has lasted over a decade at this stage (yes, the same length as the funding amazingly) and the money is working.

And the team of the late 1980s and early 1990s beat Wexford, Offaly and nearly beat Kilkenny in Leinster final - no back door in those days alas.
The beat Kilkenny away in a league campaign and lost to Galway in league semi final.

Yes, this season, they destroyed Offaly this season, but so did Wexford.

The question should be what has happened hurling in Laois, Antrim and Wexford. Dublin are operating now just a notch above where they were in 1991. Those other 'nearly' teams have fallen aside.

DONTMATTER

odyssey06 wrote: »

It's the same with sports fans in every sport, in every country and county in Ireland. And some of those same sports fans will make every allegation in book of doping, financial, medical, skullduggery with referees etc
Read the Italian newspapers after Italy loses at soccer.
It signifies nothing to the issue at hand, it just means that sports fans are partial. Just because fans don't care about something, it doesn't make that allegation true.



That's not enough. How do you ensure equality between Cork and Carlow footballers? How is it ever going to be equal, if different counties have different populations? What do we do with New York? How do you arrange equality between Kilkenny and Kerry in both codes? Will they swap hurlers for footballers?
The logical conclusion of your argument is the abandonment of the county system. If that's where your argument is going, please make it.

But ultimately, sports are not about equality. The GAA in 1980 to 2010 was not equal. Did Leitrim ever start a football season with the same chance of victory as Kerry?
If equality was what mattered, we would have a draft system like in American sports, and the best U21s would be doled out to the worst performing counties every year, and Ireland would be divided up into let's say 24 counties of equal population.

Fairness exists in the application of the rules to all teams impartially. Sport is about glory and skill and the limits of what is possible for human athletes. It has not and never been about equality.

I've already shown what the money has bought for Dublin. Dublin fans won't admit it, that's fine. My point is that it's up to the rest of us to stand up to it. This is meant to be a democratic organisation. Let's rally for us, lobby county boards, whatever it takes to bring fair play back to Gaelic Games.

How did we ensure equality before the financial doping? Go back to that. It will be harder for some counties because of population or other reasons but they will compete on an equal financial footing. The way it should be.

That's the equality I'm talking about. This is an amateur sport we're talking about. Winning titles through financial means goes against the very ethos of our games.

odyssey06

DONTMATTER wrote: »

I've already shown what the money has bought for Dublin. Dublin fans won't admit it, that's fine. My point is that it's up to the rest of us to stand up to it. This is meant to be a democratic organisation. Let's rally for us, lobby county boards, whatever it takes to bring fair play back to Gaelic Games.

They money's bought nothing for Dublin. It's 15 against 15 on the pitch and they won those finals fair and square. You've shown nothing, just a list of titles and a list of funding. Correlation is not causation. Your correlation argument doesn't even stand up for Dublin hurling, or where are their All Irelands?

When did every county in the GAA ever get equal funding? When was the last year Kerry hurlers got the same funding as Kerry footballers, or Kilkenny footballers get the same funding as Cork hurlers? When did Leitrim as a county get the same funding as Galway?

Equal funding to every county is unfair to the players of larger counties, in any sport funding, facilities and coaching will flow to where the players are.

ArielAtom

DONTMATTER wrote: »

I think the extent of the financial doping is far worse than many people realise. It is a professional system which creates, develops and produces players through a system which involves highly paid coaches, trainers and is overseen by highly paid directors. This money comes from all of us regular GAA members, they then have gained huge sponsorship money off the back of the success bought by our money which means they can have a senior set up involving the huge backroom team of various coaches, world champions, physiologists etc etc
I was on a different GAA forum a few years ago and all what is happening now was predicted then. The financial doping has made it impossible for Dublin to fail, they have a professional set up in an amateur game. I will go into the financial doping in more detail when I have time. I first will just update a comparison list I created on the GAA forum I used to frequent that shows just how much millions upon millions can buy. The first list is of what Dublin won between 1990 and 2008, the second list is what's been won since.

Between 1990 and 2008:

Senior
Football
All Ireland Senior Football Champions: 1995
Leinster Senior Football Champions: 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 2002, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
National Football League Champions: 1991, 1993

Hurling
Leinster Senior Hurling Champions: None
National Hurling League Titles: None

U21
Football
All Ireland u21 Football Champions: 2003
Leinster u21 Football Champions: 2002, 2003, 2005

Hurling
Leinster u21 Hurling Champions: None

Minor
Football
All Ireland Minor Football Champions: None
Leinster Minor Football Champions: 1994, 1999, 2001, 2003

Hurling
Leinster Minor Hurling Champions: None
____________________________________________________________________

Between 2008 and 2018:

Senior
Football
All Ireland Senior Football Champions: 2011, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2017
Leinster Senior Football Champions: 2009, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017
National Football League Champions: 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2018

Hurling
Leinster Senior Hurling Champions: 2013
National Hurling League Titles: 2011

U21
Football
All Ireland u21 Football Champions: 2010, 2012, 2014, 2017
Leinster u21 Football Champions: 2009, 2010, 2012, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017

Hurling
Leinster u21 Hurling Champions: 2010, 2011, 2016

Minor
Football
All Ireland Minor Football Champions: 2012
Leinster Minor Football Champions: 2009, 2011, 2012, 2014, 2017

Hurling
Leinster Minor Hurling Champions: 2011, 2012, 2016



That's 20 titles between 1990 and 2008 and 43 titles in the last decade! That is crazy but it's what financial doping achieves.

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