Should Dublin Football be split?

DONTMATTER

Happyilylost wrote: »

Any interesting results at minor level tonight lads?

What has that to do with my post?

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

Happyilylost

DONTMATTER wrote:

What has that to do with my post?

Splitting county into two and their minors lose to Wicklow. Jesus wept.

DONTMATTER

Happyilylost wrote: »

Splitting county into two and their minors lose to Wicklow. Jesus wept.

Splitting into 4 and it's because of this:

Happyilylost

DONTMATTER wrote:

Splitting into 4 and it's because of this:

Thanks. Hadn't seen it before. Interesting. They need more money as it's not working.

DONTMATTER

Happyilylost wrote: »

Thanks. Hadn't seen it before. Interesting. They need more money as it's not working.

You missed this part:

blanch152

Happyilylost wrote: »

Thanks. Hadn't seen it before. Interesting. They need more money as it's not working.

Correct, four minor football All-Irelands in a row by Kerry, no impact in hurling from Dublin, the money is not working the way DontMatter thinks it does.

DONTMATTER

Look up!

blanch152

DONTMATTER wrote: »

Look up!

Your figures are consistent with a once-in-a-century football team, on the verge of being the greatest of all-time.

The lack of success in recent years at underage level demonstrates so clearly that this current crop are a magnificent once-off.

DONTMATTER

blanch152 wrote: »

Your figures are consistent with a once-in-a-century football team, on the verge of being the greatest of all-time.

The lack of success in recent years at underage level demonstrates so clearly that this current crop are a magnificent once-off.

Club titles gone from 4 to 17. Underage titles gone from 7 to 27. It's undeniable. The financial doping is wrong no matter how many titles but this shows clearly what money can buy.

I actually don't know why this has taken so long but since you've failed to even attempt to argue against the points raised and your only reason for being here is to deflect, you are the newest addition to my ignore list. Slán leat agus go raibh maith agat.

blanch152

DONTMATTER wrote: »

Club titles gone from 4 to 17. Underage titles gone from 7 to 27. It's undeniable. The financial doping is wrong no matter how many titles but this shows clearly what money can buy.

I actually don't know why this has taken so long but since you've failed to even attempt to argue against the points raised and your only reason for being here is to deflect, you are the newest addition to my ignore list. Slán leat agus go raibh maith agat.

You are ignoring the most recent datasets in relation to minor football. They tell it all.

IF Dublin were finanically doped, it would be them not Kerry winning four minor All-Irelands in a row.

salmocab

blanch152 wrote: »

You are ignoring the most recent datasets in relation to minor football. They tell it all.

IF Dublin were finanically doped, it would be them not Kerry winning four minor All-Irelands in a row.

He’s ignoring people who won’t just agree with him. It’s betond pathetic at this stage. If everyone just stopped engaging with him we could move on.
Also it’s not going to happen so let him shout away.

DONTMATTER

Seeing the reaction to the Dublin minors defeat to Wicklow is very interesting. From what I've seen in numerous places, there seems to be delight that Dublin lost, from Dublin supporters! I pointed out this earlier on this thread. With more talk of the split, Dublin fans at all grades and levels will have this at the back of their mind. We won't actually mind if we lose this one.
The truth is, that with all the resources Dublin have, the defeat to Wicklow is really extremely embarrassing for Dublin.

salmocab

No Dublin supporter is happy they lost but by god he’ll claim they are.
It’s possible and I know this is crazy but it’s just possible that Wicklow managed to get a better team than Dublin did and then Wicklow incredibly managed to win with the better team. Shame on Dublin

ArielAtom

DONTMATTER wrote: »

Seeing the reaction to the Dublin minors defeat to Wicklow is very interesting. From what I've seen in numerous places, there seems to be delight that Dublin lost, from Dublin supporters! I pointed out this earlier on this thread. With more talk of the split, Dublin fans at all grades and levels will have this at the back of their mind. We won't actually mind if we lose this one.
The truth is, that with all the resources Dublin have, the defeat to Wicklow is really extremely embarrassing for Dublin.

Can you link these numerous places or are you just trolling again.

DONTMATTER

Twitter, on GAA forums. Why aren't you on ignore? I'll fix that now.

mobby

DONTMATTER wrote: »

Twitter, on GAA forums. Why aren't you on ignore? I'll fix that now.

Me to please.

ArielAtom

DONTMATTER wrote: »

Twitter, on GAA forums. Why aren't you on ignore? I'll fix that now.

Deflection tactics😂😂😂😂😂😂 what a muppet.

https://www.dublingaa.ie/news/minor-footballers-beaten-by-impressive-wicklow

Mangnanimous in defeat as ever.

DONTMATTER

mobby wrote: »

Me to please.

Who are you?

salmocab

Oh he’s running this forum with an iron fist, don’t agree? on ignore you go. Suddenly nobody is disagreeing and he thinks he’s won the debate.

salmocab

Oh he’s running this forum with an iron fist, don’t agree? on ignore you go. Suddenly nobody is disagreeing and he thinks he’s won the debate.

Bonniedog

DONTMATTER wrote: »

Seeing the reaction to the Dublin minors defeat to Wicklow is very interesting. From what I've seen in numerous places, there seems to be delight that Dublin lost, from Dublin supporters! I pointed out this earlier on this thread. With more talk of the split, Dublin fans at all grades and levels will have this at the back of their mind. We won't actually mind if we lose this one.
The truth is, that with all the resources Dublin have, the defeat to Wicklow is really extremely embarrassing for Dublin.

Disappointing but not embarrassing. One group of 16/17 year olds loses to another. Doubt any of them be either lamenting or celebrating that for the rest of their lives! You get beaten or win and move on.

It's called sport.

DONTMATTER

Bonniedog wrote: »

Disappointing but not embarrassing. One group of 16/17 year olds loses to another. Doubt any of them be either lamenting or celebrating that for the rest of their lives! You get beaten or win and move on.

It's called sport.

Given the advantages, it's a bit embarrassing to be fair. But as has been said, minor level is not the end goal of the development system. It's to develop seniors so U21/U20 level is a closer indication of the plan coming to fruition.

seligehgit

Mod Warning

This is a topic worthy of discussion based on facts.Make your argument solely based on your critique of the quality of evidence presented.This is the sole thread where all things relating to this contentious issue should be addressed if possible.Too many threads are being clogged up by same.

Can we please keep it civil on both sides.There is far too much attacking of the posters as opposed to the posts

DONTMATTER please desist from announcing on thread that you are putting posters on your ignore list.

gormdubhgorm

OK I am a Dub.
Spilt us after we win five in a row.


Seriously though, there are a number of problems with splitting Dublin the leinster council will get much less money initially they won't be for it.
Therefore other teams will get less money even smaller gates

There is no Dublin home ground on the Southside.
Therefore Dublin GAA will be looking for funding from HQ for a new fit to purpose stadium 25-30k.

This will be mean less money for everyone else.

I do believe the solution should be any Dub with Culchie parents should be allowed to play for the county of his parents should he so wish.
(In other words if he is not good enough to get on the Dublin team)

It would be a split of players of sorts not the Dublin brand.

Then there will be a greater spread of Dublin players across the country and sure the culchies would love that?

DONTMATTER

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

OK I am a Dub.
Spilt us after we win five in a row.


Seriously though, there are a number of problems with splitting Dublin the leinster council will get much less money initially they won't be for it.
Therefore other teams will get less money even smaller gates

There is no Dublin home ground on the Southside.
Therefore Dublin GAA will be looking for funding from HQ for a new fit to purpose stadium 25-30k.

This will be mean less money for everyone else.

I do believe the solution should be any Dub with Culchie parents should be allowed to play for the county of his parents should he so wish.
(In other words if he is not good enough to get on the Dublin team)

It would be a split of players of sorts not the Dublin brand.

Then there will be a greater spread of Dublin players across the country and sure the culchies would love that?

We'll have 4 counties instead of one. Fingal nearly 300,000, Dún Laoighaire 218,000, Dublin city 500,000 and South Dublin nearly 300,000. Attendances won't be a problem. At the moment Dublin are only bringing about 10,000 to games at neutral venues. With 4 teams, they'll bring in more than that.

There are plans for a centre of excellence that can be cut. Use the land to build a small stadium which won't require the use of the whole site bought, sell the land that's not needed and use the money to build a few other small stadiums. This might take time but deals can be done to have the use of other arena's in these areas.

You will then have have 4 areas with big populations, far more players will get a chance to compete for their area at underage and at senior. They'll dream of playing in their local stadium. A few new clubs can be set up in these areas too. At the moment the drop off rates are massive after minor.
There's no reason why these new counties can't be competitive in Leinster and at All Ireland level. It has positive repercussions for these areas, it's positive for our games, it can only be a good thing.

There's also the fact that with Dublin having a population of nearly 2 million by 2030, this has to happen. There's no way around it.

salmocab

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

OK I am a Dub.
Spilt us after we win five in a row.


Seriously though, there are a number of problems with splitting Dublin the leinster council will get much less money initially they won't be for it.
Therefore other teams will get less money even smaller gates

There is no Dublin home ground on the Southside.
Therefore Dublin GAA will be looking for funding from HQ for a new fit to purpose stadium 25-30k.

This will be mean less money for everyone else.

I do believe the solution should be any Dub with Culchie parents should be allowed to play for the county of his parents should he so wish.
(In other words if he is not good enough to get on the Dublin team)

It would be a split of players of sorts not the Dublin brand.

Then there will be a greater spread of Dublin players across the country and sure the culchies would love that?

Can they not already plump for a parents county?
Your right though apart from the fairly obvious reason of why would the county board allow it there are many financial and traditional reasons for it not to happen.
An extra county or 3 to fund would cost a fortune and as someone pointed out yesterday that could be up to 4 Dublin county boards voting enmass.
I doubt too many other county boards would want it anyway. The big guns aren’t going to want to have a championship without Dublin.
The Leinster counties aren’t going to want to lose the cash the Dubs bring in.
Sponsors would be annoyed at loss of exposure, not just Dublin sponsors but the likes of league sponsors etc.
If they did start going down this road it’s a very slippy road any time anyone gets ahead they would become a target.

BarryD2

salmocab wrote: »

If they did start going down this road it’s a very slippy road any time anyone gets ahead they would become a target.

No, the roots of this argument are unique. It's the completely disproportionate resources that greater Dublin enjoys. This affects many aspects of society, economy and culture and the GAA issues are just reflective of an imbalance that arises in many other ways between Dublin and the rest of the country.

To restore sporting balance, you either sub divide Dublin County or allow other counties & region to coalesce in terms of team selection, sponsorship and resources.

Fann Linn

DONTMATTER wrote: »

We'll have 4 counties instead of one. Fingal nearly 300,000, Dún Laoighaire 218,000, Dublin city 500,000 and South Dublin nearly 300,000. Attendances won't be a problem. At the moment Dublin are only bringing about 10,000 to games at neutral venues. With 4 teams, they'll bring in more than that.

There are plans for a centre of excellence that can be cut. Use the land to build a small stadium which won't require the use of the whole site bought, sell the land that's not needed and use the money to build a few other small stadiums. This might take time but deals can be done to have the use of other arena's in these areas.

You will then have have 4 areas with big populations, far more players will get a chance to compete for their area at underage and at senior. They'll dream of playing in their local stadium. A few new clubs can be set up in these areas too. At the moment the drop off rates are massive after minor.
There's no reason why these new counties can't be competitive in Leinster and at All Ireland level. It has positive repercussions for these areas, it's positive for our games, it can only be a good thing.

There's also the fact that with Dublin having a population of nearly 2 million by 2030, this has to happen. There's no way around it.

4 Dublin teams in the league/ 4 Dublin teams in the Leinster Championship.

I can just see it now. New thread on boards 'Why can't Dublin be joined up?'

DONTMATTER

BarryD2 wrote: »

No, the roots of this argument are unique. It's the completely disproportionate resources that greater Dublin enjoys. This affects many aspects of society, economy and culture and the GAA issues are just reflective of an imbalance that arises in many other ways between Dublin and the rest of the country.

To restore sporting balance, you either sub divide Dublin County or allow other counties & region to coalesce in terms of team selection, sponsorship and resources.

The split is inevitable. Even if you ignore all the financial stuff, the population reality means it has to happen.

It's the combination of the financial issue, the population, the effect it's having on our games, the path it's going down etc that means this has to happen now.

blanch152

salmocab wrote: »

No Dublin supporter is happy they lost but by god he’ll claim they are.
It’s possible and I know this is crazy but it’s just possible that Wicklow managed to get a better team than Dublin did and then Wicklow incredibly managed to win with the better team. Shame on Dublin

The thing is that the Dublin GDF funding isn't designed to produce a succession of successful minor teams, its primary focus is mass participation and the enjoyment and empowerment of kids. Yes, occasionally, a player that otherwise wouldn't have made it is kept in the game and is successful but it is a side-effect, a secondary goal, not a primary objective.

So you get results like this one. You don't get results like this from Kerry for example. Why? Because their primary focus is producing successful inter-county teams. A county like Meath or Kildare could learn a lot from Kerry if they want inter-county success. Or from Dublin if they want a healthy club scene and mass juvenile participation.

So at one level he is right. Many Dubs aren't bothered by the success or failure of their minor team. They are more concerned about their clubs, more interested in how many of their clubmates made minor or U-20 this year, where does that leave their club going forward etc.

gormdubhgorm

DONTMATTER wrote: »

We'll have 4 counties instead of one. Fingal nearly 300,000, Dún Laoighaire 218,000, Dublin city 500,000 and South Dublin nearly 300,000. Attendances won't be a problem. At the moment Dublin are only bringing about 10,000 to games at neutral venues. With 4 teams, they'll bring in more than that.

There are plans for a centre of excellence that can be cut. Use the land to build a small stadium which won't require the use of the whole site bought, sell the land that's not needed and use the money to build a few other small stadiums. This might take time but deals can be done to have the use of other arena's in these areas.

You will then have have 4 areas with big populations, far more players will get a chance to compete for their area at underage and at senior. They'll dream of playing in their local stadium. A few new clubs can be set up in these areas too. At the moment the drop off rates are massive after minor.
There's no reason why these new counties can't be competitive in Leinster and at All Ireland level. It has positive repercussions for these areas, it's positive for our games, it can only be a good thing.

There's also the fact that with Dublin having a population of nearly 2 million by 2030, this has to happen. There's no way around it.

There is no doubt it will happen eventually. In 50 years time the AI championship will look very different then it does now. (In fact I think the club championship will overtake the county championship by then)

But, you are looking at Dublin as if it is a normal county compare to others in the South of Ireland. There are vast swathes that have no interest in the GAA.
There is no club in the Dublin 4 heartland for example.
In hurling there was a development squad that called themselves Fingal as the DCC identified this as an area where there was no hurling ethos. They tried to drum up interest.

Dublin is a complicated county, not to mention the influx of other generations whose parents are from other countries and are not brought up in the gaa.

Dubllin is complex and the solution is not simple

gormdubhgorm

Fann Linn wrote: »

4 Dublin teams in the league/ 4 Dublin teams in the Leinster Championship.

I can just see it now. New thread on boards 'Why can't Dublin be joined up?'

When the four Dublin teams reach a semi-final stage...what will be said?

gormdubhgorm

salmocab wrote: »

Can they not already plump for a parents county?

I assumed it is only for certain counties like Leitrim who were allowed to get a Declan Darcy.

If is it is the case where Dubs can play for thier parents county why are other counties managers not scouring the Dublin club scene and we should see more of it?

ArielAtom

Just putting it out there, the split that some posters are advocating is not inevitable as it has been put. This is a wish of one side of the debate. There is no factual basis for it. It could be put that the joining of forces by other counties is inevitable, it is not though. Debating the merits of what should be done re funding is a different debate and one which has merits. But remember that funding should be per head of capita and per participation. There is no use in quoting 2 million population in Dublin when it has a very diverse culture with the most foreign nationals living there, not to mention the amount of people from the country that travel home to play GAA with their local club each week. Most reasonable people will agree that using that base would be a good starting point.

TrueGael

ArielAtom wrote: »

Just putting it out there, the split that some posters are advocating is not inevitable as it has been put. This is a wish of one side of the debate. There is no factual basis for it. It could be put that the joining of forces by other counties is inevitable, it is not though. Debating the merits of what should be done re funding is a different debate and one which has merits. But remember that funding should be per head of capita and per participation. There is no use in quoting 2 million population in Dublin when it has a very diverse culture with the most foreign nationals living there, not to mention the amount of people from the country that travel home to play GAA with their local club each week. Most reasonable people will agree that using that base would be a good starting point.

But you can attribute funding per capita wise including rugby and soccer diehards(as well other niche sports in Dublin that don't really exist anywhere else in Ireland) in Dublin who'll never darken the door of a GAA ground that is skewing the numbers

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CuAH0ITXEAErp0D.jpg

Indeed even if include total population, we see in relation to its peers Dublin is still receiving far far higher funding

ArielAtom

TrueGael wrote: »

ArielAtom wrote: »

Just putting it out there, the split that some posters are advocating is not inevitable as it has been put. This is a wish of one side of the debate. There is no factual basis for it. It could be put that the joining of forces by other counties is inevitable, it is not though. Debating the merits of what should be done re funding is a different debate and one which has merits. But remember that funding should be per head of capita and per participation. There is no use in quoting 2 million population in Dublin when it has a very diverse culture with the most foreign nationals living there, not to mention the amount of people from the country that travel home to play GAA with their local club each week. Most reasonable people will agree that using that base would be a good starting point.

But you can attribute funding per capita wise including rugby and soccer diehards(as well other niche sports in Dublin that don't really exist anywhere else in Ireland) in Dublin who'll never darken the door of a GAA ground that is skewing the numbers

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CuAH0ITXEAErp0D.jpg

Indeed even if include total population, we see in relation to its peers Dublin is still receiving far far higher funding

I’m not sure I understand your post. I am talking about actual numbers that participate in Gaelic Games as opposed to county populations. That is a fair starting point. Not interested in other sports or their participation.

DONTMATTER

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

There is no doubt it will happen eventually. In 50 years time the AI championship will look very different then it does now. (In fact I think the club championship will overtake the county championship by then)

But, you are looking at Dublin as if it is a normal county compare to others in the South of Ireland. There are vast swathes that have no interest in the GAA.
There is no club in the Dublin 4 heartland for example.
In hurling there was a development squad that called themselves Fingal as the DCC identified this as an area where there was no hurling ethos. They tried to drum up interest.

Dublin is a complicated county, not to mention the influx of other generations whose parents are from other countries and are not brought up in the gaa.

Dubllin is complex and the solution is not simple

Why you just include southern Ireland? The GAA is a 32 county organisation. There are other sports in all other counties, not just Dublin. Surely some Ulster counties are worse off than Dublin? Having 50% of their population going nowhere near a Gaelic Games club.

Dublin isn't that complex. The current situation is that they are getting far too much money compared to everyone else and it's causing problems in our association. Currently Dublin is weakening our games!

DONTMATTER

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

When the four Dublin teams reach a semi-final stage...what will be said?

What would be wrong with that? As long as they did it fairly.

nice_guy80

DONTMATTER wrote: »

What would be wrong with that? As long as they did it fairly.

They could all play in the neutral stadium
Conveniently located 20 mins away from everyone

DONTMATTER

nice_guy80 wrote: »

They could all play in the neutral stadium
Conveniently located 20 mins away from everyone

Perfect!

DONTMATTER

Let's look at what's happening now. The millions of euro Dublin GAA have got since 2005 was meant to increase participation and increase Dublin's standards across all competitions. We can see that the second part has worked, I've already done a table showing 52 titles post funding compared with 14 titles in the same time frame pre funding.

What about the increased participation part. Does anyone have any numbers on this? How many new clubs have been established? What are the playing numbers like in comparison to before the funding. We hear a lot about the super clubs and the huge numbers they're getting at underage levels but are the smaller clubs being left behind?

Surely if the number of kids at the super clubs are as big as has been touted, then the drop off rates must be massive around the 16, 17, 18 year old age group?

Have Dublin GAA made any impact on the rugby playing areas? Where soccer is strong?

On this thread we've had videos from Off The Ball posted, they listed the big name former players who are all coaching the development squads. And we've heard these squads are all doing top level strength and conditioning work and training in the multi million euro Abbotstown facilities. It looks like this is where the money is going and the increased participation part is kind of secondary. Can anyone clarify this?

frankled

I (Dub ST holder) lurk on this forum the odd time- only occasionally posting. I feel compelled to offer my two cents here:

The money debate

If there is an imbalance in terms of funding provided to Dublin GAA through whatever means then this should be addressed. Moreover it can be easily addressed and recent murmurs from the GAA indicate they'll work towards this.

But to note this: Dublin GAA applied for and took funding available- and spent it wisely. They recognised a problem and took appropriate measure. The result is appropriate coaching/development structures for a city like Dublin. The lesson here? Every county should follow this blueprint. Don't weaken your capital county, focus on bringing other counties along. Meath, Kildare and whoever else should be doing the same. Apply/lobby for the funding, and get your s**t together. As a Dublin fan I'm longing for a Leinster Championship like that which we used to have- it's simply just not the same craic without a bruising encounter with these counties.

It's worth pointing out that Dublin are not the only county that gets huge sums of money in funding, and the expenditure in counties vary wildly. Centres of excellence are a thing now, and different counties have invested disproportionately into the wrong areas it seems.

Using money to constantly undermine this current Dublin Senior Football team's achievements does nothing but belittle their achievements. The 2011 win was the start of success here and largely came from players that would not have directly benefitted from changes put in place in the mid-2000s. Even now, senior players are players that would have honed their skills and been 'noticed' prior to these changes (I know this because I am 30, similar age group and I played underage). If you think it will have an influence on results, then look forward to the years coming, not back.

This undermining of the players’ achievements angers me because as Dublin fans we are desperate for four-in-a-row and would of course be just as hungry for a fifth, should that be an option. And if it is, the Brian Fentons, Johnny Coopers and so on of this world would/should be commended for every bit of effort they've put in. And additionally, the mentors, volunteers and others at club-level are the true source of nurturing this talent (also, Brian Fenton was born to play Gaelic Football- genetically in every way!).

Getting back to the solution with money- it’s simple. Proportion it properly, ensuring that the many clubs of Cork County are supported correctly, and also ensuring that the great games development work in Dublin can continue, but without any of the usual begrudgery and critique being able to be brought up. It’s obvious that the area with the most population should get the most money for games development proportionate to population playing the sports, but it’s up to the other counties to ensure they get their fair share.

Population

The GAA structures are built on imbalances, as are any other sporting institutions. The classic "well shouldn't USA or China be better at soccer?" line actually holds a lot of weight. As a few posters have recently pointed out, something that I've argued a lot, the percentage of those in County Dublin with an interest in sport, never mind GAA, would definitely be lower than other counties. In fact, if I was to canvass my own area (an average road in Tallaght) or the office building I am currently working in in Dublin, you will find a low percentage of people are interested in the GAA. A travel down the country and you can easily get talking to people about it- it does be the centre focus of towns. Dublin City is very diverse and even of the indigenous population here, many have no interest in sport at all (take my other half's brothers, for example- zero interest).

Another classic is that, as we won so little in concentrated periods of time prior to 2011, that it is funny how the population advantage is only of relevance now. This cannot be denied. Dublin has never been a stronghold of Hurling and the high population in the city has never been in proportion to the level of GAA interest expected. Kerry won four in a row over three decades ago and has a small population, what was the advantage then?

Another caveat of this argument is, where do you stop? Dublin win a few Football All Irelands and get their house in order developmentally following a demoralising lull (1995-2002), and all of a sudden they should be split into, what, two? three? four? five? Then what happens after that? All of a sudden you are faced with a precedent whereby you are determined to level the playing field on a constant basis. If one thing has thought us anything over the last few years with the GAA- they are not averse to changing things (rule changes, black cards, championship formats) and we have reached a new era where even the most unexpected changes (back-door, soccer in Croker, super 8s) are now accepted. Couple that with the amount of discourse and publicity that goes with the games nowadays (‘Newbridge or Nowhere’ for example)- it's not beyond the realms of possibility that people would then think to divide other counties, even if it is not seen as applicable in this present moment and time, it could be in future.

Tradition & identity

I’m not generally stuck-in-the-mud and I love change. But GAA is built on parish-club-county and the ambition of playing for the applicable team, or at least supporting them. I support an English soccer team here and there- but it does nothing for me in terms of the feeling that I get when watching Dublin run on to a pitch- nothing at all. And I say that of league games too. I have grown up supporting them since my Dad brought me to my first match and value my season ticket more than any other physical possession. 2011 was one of the best moments of my life and should not be taken away from me or any other Dubs. And it would be. ‘South Dublin’, ‘Dun Laoghaire/Rathdown’, ‘Fingal’ or wherever would have no tradition, etc. Creating these would actually damage the legacy of wins like 2011 for us, or wins in the 2000s for Tyrone/Armagh fans, and so on, if you were to split them. Sport will always have it’s All Blacks and Brazils of the world, we’d never try and ruin that tradition. And anyway, Kerry are still the Brazil of the Gaelic Football world.

---

Apologies for the long post- I don’t have the time to post often and generally just read some of the opinions and news out there, but this thread is still going strong which, quite frankly, is irritating me as the logic of force-splitting teams is inherently flawed in many ways. Encourage other counties to get their s**t together (and I’d genuinely love that), don’t undermine a great team and proud fan-base.

DONTMATTER

frankled wrote: »

I (Dub ST holder) lurk on this forum the odd time- only occasionally posting. I feel compelled to offer my two cents here:

The money debate

If there is an imbalance in terms of funding provided to Dublin GAA through whatever means then this should be addressed. Moreover it can be easily addressed and recent murmurs from the GAA indicate they'll work towards this.

But to note this: Dublin GAA applied for and took funding available- and spent it wisely. They recognised a problem and took appropriate measure. The result is appropriate coaching/development structures for a city like Dublin. The lesson here? Every county should follow this blueprint. Don't weaken your capital county, focus on bringing other counties along. Meath, Kildare and whoever else should be doing the same. Apply/lobby for the funding, and get your s**t together. As a Dublin fan I'm longing for a Leinster Championship like that which we used to have- it's simply just not the same craic without a bruising encounter with these counties.

It's worth pointing out that Dublin are not the only county that gets huge sums of money in funding, and the expenditure in counties vary wildly. Centres of excellence are a thing now, and different counties have invested disproportionately into the wrong areas it seems.

Using money to constantly undermine this current Dublin Senior Football team's achievements does nothing but belittle their achievements. The 2011 win was the start of success here and largely came from players that would not have directly benefitted from changes put in place in the mid-2000s. Even now, senior players are players that would have honed their skills and been 'noticed' prior to these changes (I know this because I am 30, similar age group and I played underage). If you think it will have an influence on results, then look forward to the years coming, not back.

This undermining of the players’ achievements angers me because as Dublin fans we are desperate for four-in-a-row and would of course be just as hungry for a fifth, should that be an option. And if it is, the Brian Fentons, Johnny Coopers and so on of this world would/should be commended for every bit of effort they've put in. And additionally, the mentors, volunteers and others at club-level are the true source of nurturing this talent (also, Brian Fenton was born to play Gaelic Football- genetically in every way!).

Getting back to the solution with money- it’s simple. Proportion it properly, ensuring that the many clubs of Cork County are supported correctly, and also ensuring that the great games development work in Dublin can continue, but without any of the usual begrudgery and critique being able to be brought up. It’s obvious that the area with the most population should get the most money for games development proportionate to population playing the sports, but it’s up to the other counties to ensure they get their fair share.

Population

The GAA structures are built on imbalances, as are any other sporting institutions. The classic "well shouldn't USA or China be better at soccer?" line actually holds a lot of weight. As a few posters have recently pointed out, something that I've argued a lot, the percentage of those in County Dublin with an interest in sport, never mind GAA, would definitely be lower than other counties. In fact, if I was to canvass my own area (an average road in Tallaght) or the office building I am currently working in in Dublin, you will find a low percentage of people are interested in the GAA. A travel down the country and you can easily get talking to people about it- it does be the centre focus of towns. Dublin City is very diverse and even of the indigenous population here, many have no interest in sport at all (take my other half's brothers, for example- zero interest).

Another classic is that, as we won so little in concentrated periods of time prior to 2011, that it is funny how the population advantage is only of relevance now. This cannot be denied. Dublin has never been a stronghold of Hurling and the high population in the city has never been in proportion to the level of GAA interest expected. Kerry won four in a row over three decades ago and has a small population, what was the advantage then?

Another caveat of this argument is, where do you stop? Dublin win a few Football All Irelands and get their house in order developmentally following a demoralising lull (1995-2002), and all of a sudden they should be split into, what, two? three? four? five? Then what happens after that? All of a sudden you are faced with a precedent whereby you are determined to level the playing field on a constant basis. If one thing has thought us anything over the last few years with the GAA- they are not averse to changing things (rule changes, black cards, championship formats) and we have reached a new era where even the most unexpected changes (back-door, soccer in Croker, super 8s) are now accepted. Couple that with the amount of discourse and publicity that goes with the games nowadays (‘Newbridge or Nowhere’ for example)- it's not beyond the realms of possibility that people would then think to divide other counties, even if it is not seen as applicable in this present moment and time, it could be in future.

Tradition & identity

I’m not generally stuck-in-the-mud and I love change. But GAA is built on parish-club-county and the ambition of playing for the applicable team, or at least supporting them. I support an English soccer team here and there- but it does nothing for me in terms of the feeling that I get when watching Dublin run on to a pitch- nothing at all. And I say that of league games too. I have grown up supporting them since my Dad brought me to my first match and value my season ticket more than any other physical possession. 2011 was one of the best moments of my life and should not be taken away from me or any other Dubs. And it would be. ‘South Dublin’, ‘Dun Laoghaire/Rathdown’, ‘Fingal’ or wherever would have no tradition, etc. Creating these would actually damage the legacy of wins like 2011 for us, or wins in the 2000s for Tyrone/Armagh fans, and so on, if you were to split them. Sport will always have it’s All Blacks and Brazils of the world, we’d never try and ruin that tradition. And anyway, Kerry are still the Brazil of the Gaelic Football world.

---

Apologies for the long post- I don’t have the time to post often and generally just read some of the opinions and news out there, but this thread is still going strong which, quite frankly, is irritating me as the logic of force-splitting teams is inherently flawed in many ways. Encourage other counties to get their s**t together (and I’d genuinely love that), don’t undermine a great team and proud fan-base.

Hello. Many of the things in your post we've gone over before but I'll address them again.

The money debate

Firstly, the imbalance begun in 2005. That's a long time to have such a big gap in funding.
The Strategic Review Committee recommended this along with splitting Dublin in two. It was a mutually beneficial deal. The GAA bankroll Dublin's development - Dublin GAA provide increased revenue for the GAA through increased attendance, sponsorship money, tv deals etc.
There are highly paid officials making sure this money is spend wisely. Strategic development officers were put in place.

Ofcourse every county should follow the blueprint, that's what has been said in this thread. Take the money off Dublin and spread the funds. Employ Strategic officers to oversee it like in Dublin. Unlike what you say, this should be spread to 32 counties, that's what fairness involves.
Just to add to this, some counties have gone to Croke Park with costed plans and the door has been slammed in their face.

Dublin are the only county to get huge sums of Games Development money. Every other county has received a similar amount to each other since 2005, Dublin are the only outlier. If you want to include Centres of Excellence, facilities and county grounds into the equation, Dublin are actually even further ahead in terms of funding.

It's not just the Dublin footballers, Dublin have won 52 titles across all grades and levels since 2005, in the 13 years before that they won 14 titles. In club football and hurling, Dublin clubs won 4 Leinster or All Ireland championships between 1992 and 2005, they've won 17 since. Including their first ever hurling club championship.
The overwhelming majority of the Dublin team came through the system, even in 2011 you need to look at the new players who entered the backline.

The unfortunate truth is that all these players you mention have come through a highly funded underage structure. This has tainted their achievements. A county is operating at a professional level against amateur counties. It goes against the very ethos of the GAA.

Why is it up to the other counties? Why is the ruling organisation favouring one county over the rest? If population was the reasoning then Cork would be getting half what Dublin has received, they've received nowhere near that!

Population

Every other county play other sports as well and every other county has people with no interest in sport. Look at some Ulster counties, 50% of their populations don't care about the GAA. How are Dublin worse off than them?
Also Dublin fans are in a pickle over this. On one hand you state you need the millions to fund the massive population but on the other you say that population isn't an advantage because not many are interested in GAA. So why the need for so much funding?

It's not just about the senior football team as I've noted above. There's many reasons for splitting but the main one is that there has been a massive discrepancy in funding for 13 years. Professional systems have been put in one county, that's why it's referred to as financial doping.
This has given Dublin an unfair advantage. Some counties have invested huge sums to try to keep up. This is a very dangerous path, it's not the route that ordinary GAA people want to go down. It has to be stopped immediately.

Tradition & identity

It's unfortunate. It would have been nice to continue on from the early naughties and set up fair systems in all counties. You can only blame the GAA and the Dublin County Board however. The money was given and accepted.
There has been many short term gains for Dublin but the reality is that it cannot continue long term. It's detrimental to our games. And that's what it's all about, there's no one county bigger than the GAA.
To restore fairness and balance, to halt the progress towards an elite game with few counties competing, the split must happen. It will have huge benefits for Gaelic Games in our capital too.

frankled

DONTMATTER wrote: »

Hello. Many of the things in your post we've gone over before but I'll address them again.

Should have added the disclaimer that I haven't read every page of the thread, but was more of an overall thing.

DONTMATTER wrote: »

Firstly, the imbalance begun in 2005. That's a long time to have such a big gap in funding.
The Strategic Review Committee recommended this along with splitting Dublin in two. It was a mutually beneficial deal. The GAA bankroll Dublin's development - Dublin GAA provide increased revenue for the GAA through increased attendance, sponsorship money, tv deals etc.
There are highly paid officials making sure this money is spend wisely. Strategic development officers were put in place.

Ofcourse every county should follow the blueprint, that's what has been said in this thread. Take the money off Dublin and spread the funds. Employ Strategic officers to oversee it like in Dublin. Unlike what you say, this should be spread to 32 counties, that's what fairness involves.
Just to add to this, some counties have gone to Croke Park with costed plans and the door has been slammed in their face.

Dublin are the only county to get huge sums of Games Development money. Every other county has received a similar amount to each other since 2005, Dublin are the only outlier. If you want to include Centres of Excellence, facilities and county grounds into the equation, Dublin are actually even further ahead in terms of funding.

In terms of the GAA and Dublin mutually benefitting each other- of course this will happen. A split isn't relevant here- we're both discussing the same problems but you seem to only want to tout the most extreme solution- a split.

You mention funding. You're right, Dublin have gotten huge sums. They should- there are a lot more kids in this county that can benefit from this. But yes, I do think it would be fantastic to see all counties benefitting from this- we're definitely in agreement there on some levels. But the onus is also on these counties to request funding. And during this timeframe only Dublin and maybe some other counties to an extent have spoken up. Dublin shouldn't be penalised here- a split is not relevant again.

DONTMATTER wrote: »

It's not just the Dublin footballers, Dublin have won 52 titles across all grades and levels since 2005, in the 13 years before that they won 14 titles. In club football and hurling, Dublin clubs won 4 Leinster or All Ireland championships between 1992 and 2005, they've won 17 since. Including their first ever hurling club championship.
The overwhelming majority of the Dublin team came through the system, even in 2011 you need to look at the new players who entered the backline.

I saw your table. I don't believe you can put this success down to cash only. A county board with a kick up the arse, and general flux. I'm sure if you go back through the records you'll see similar periods of success for other counties. The minor result from the other day has been discussed here recently.

DONTMATTER wrote: »

The unfortunate truth is that all these players you mention have come through a highly funded underage structure. This has tainted their achievements. A county is operating at a professional level against amateur counties. It goes against the very ethos of the GAA.

The unfortunate truth is a county getting their house in order and enjoying success through hard-work is constantly being beatent by this stick. Nothing is tainted and I strongly refute that point. The "ethos of the GAA" is something which gets confused at inter-county level. They've the third-biggest stadium in the continent and commercially in a whole other stratosphere, yet we still get annoyed when we see some counties spend money (it's not always Dublin, believe it or not).

DONTMATTER wrote: »

Why is it up to the other counties? Why is the ruling organisation favouring one county over the rest? If population was the reasoning then Cork would be getting half what Dublin has received, they've received nowhere near that!

Well any grant generally has to be applied for, but even beyond that, if there was this blatant favouritism you mention then other counties could easily speak up. Kildare did a great job of that the other day.

DONTMATTER wrote: »

Every other county play other sports as well and every other county has people with no interest in sport. Look at some Ulster counties, 50% of their populations don't care about the GAA. How are Dublin worse off than them?
Also Dublin fans are in a pickle over this. On one hand you state you need the millions to fund the massive population but on the other you say that population isn't an advantage because not many are interested in GAA. So why the need for so much funding?

That's six counties just, and whilst you have a point that a lot of their populations are disinterested in the sports, a lot of the arguments for Dublin to be split rest on the assumption that the Dublin populace is proportionately as interested in the sport as the rest of the country.

I am saying that Dublin requires funding as it obviously is a big county- this is about balance of funding. Again, I think we're in agreement there. So we have a tangible solution, but yet you still want to split Dublin?

DONTMATTER wrote: »

It's not just about the senior football team as I've noted above. There's many reasons for splitting but the main one is that there has been a massive discrepancy in funding for 13 years. Professional systems have been put in one county, that's why it's referred to as financial doping.
This has given Dublin an unfair advantage. Some counties have invested huge sums to try to keep up. This is a very dangerous path, it's not the route that ordinary GAA people want to go down. It has to be stopped immediately.

I don't think the 'advantage' is as tangible or has been as immediately felt as you say. Again, we can fix any imbalances without splitting a great GAA county.

DONTMATTER wrote: »

It's unfortunate. It would have been nice to continue on from the early naughties and set up fair systems in all counties. You can only blame the GAA and the Dublin County Board however. The money was given and accepted.
There has been many short term gains for Dublin but the reality is that it cannot continue long term. It's detrimental to our games. And that's what it's all about, there's no one county bigger than the GAA.
To restore fairness and balance, to halt the progress towards an elite game with few counties competing, the split must happen. It will have huge benefits for Gaelic Games in our capital too.

I don't blame the Dublin County board. And I don't think the gains are as imbalanced as you say. If there are funding imbalances then this is an easy fix. My whole point here isn't that the situation over the last number of years is perfect, but rather that a split is an extreme and flawed argument.

I'll have to sign off for the moment, typed this up in a rush.

blanch152

TrueGael wrote: »

But you can attribute funding per capita wise including rugby and soccer diehards(as well other niche sports in Dublin that don't really exist anywhere else in Ireland) in Dublin who'll never darken the door of a GAA ground that is skewing the numbers

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CuAH0ITXEAErp0D.jpg

Indeed even if include total population, we see in relation to its peers Dublin is still receiving far far higher funding

An old out-of-date picture of development funding.

It also ignores what the money is spent on.

salmocab

doc_17 wrote: »

Slightly off topic, but maybe Donegal and Dublin should **spilt** the travelling distance and play the game in a true neutral venue like Clones.

This is on the other thread the games are fixed for Croke Park not a neutral venue.

DONTMATTER

frankled wrote: »

Should have added the disclaimer that I haven't read every page of the thread, but was more of an overall thing.



In terms of the GAA and Dublin mutually benefitting each other- of course this will happen. A split isn't relevant here- we're both discussing the same problems but you seem to only want to tout the most extreme solution- a split.

You mention funding. You're right, Dublin have gotten huge sums. They should- there are a lot more kids in this county that can benefit from this. But yes, I do think it would be fantastic to see all counties benefitting from this- we're definitely in agreement there on some levels. But the onus is also on these counties to request funding. And during this timeframe only Dublin and maybe some other counties to an extent have spoken up. Dublin shouldn't be penalised here- a split is not relevant again.



I saw your table. I don't believe you can put this success down to cash only. A county board with a kick up the arse, and general flux. I'm sure if you go back through the records you'll see similar periods of success for other counties. The minor result from the other day has been discussed here recently.



The unfortunate truth is a county getting their house in order and enjoying success through hard-work is constantly being beatent by this stick. Nothing is tainted and I strongly refute that point. The "ethos of the GAA" is something which gets confused at inter-county level. They've the third-biggest stadium in the continent and commercially in a whole other stratosphere, yet we still get annoyed when we see some counties spend money (it's not always Dublin, believe it or not).



Well any grant generally has to be applied for, but even beyond that, if there was this blatant favouritism you mention then other counties could easily speak up. Kildare did a great job of that the other day.



That's six counties just, and whilst you have a point that a lot of their populations are disinterested in the sports, a lot of the arguments for Dublin to be split rest on the assumption that the Dublin populace is proportionately as interested in the sport as the rest of the country.

I am saying that Dublin requires funding as it obviously is a big county- this is about balance of funding. Again, I think we're in agreement there. So we have a tangible solution, but yet you still want to split Dublin?




I don't think the 'advantage' is as tangible or has been as immediately felt as you say. Again, we can fix any imbalances without splitting a great GAA county.



I don't blame the Dublin County board. And I don't think the gains are as imbalanced as you say. If there are funding imbalances then this is an easy fix. My whole point here isn't that the situation over the last number of years is perfect, but rather that a split is an extreme and flawed argument.

I'll have to sign off for the moment, typed this up in a rush.

I was just pointing out that it wasn't Dublin getting their **** together as you said, but the GAA sorting it for them!! The Strategic Review committee basically said it was a mess. The millions upon millions of euros sorted that.

Why should Dublin get millions more than anyone else? All other counties get around the same amount, why should Dublin get nearly 50% of the funding since 2005? Have Cork and Antrim got half of what Dublin received?

I've already said about other counties having the door shut on them by HQ. It was a business decision by the GAA. It was to make money. It's proving detrimental to our games.

52 titles in13 years, about the same amount that Dublin won in the 40 years before that! At the exact same time that huge finance was pumped into Dublin gaa. To deny the connection would be incredulous.
How can you explain the improvements in club competitions even?

Dublin got their house in order with the aid of millions upon millions of Euro. That's one of the main reasons why the split must happen. You can't ignore that.
A county competing at a professional level against amateur counties cannot be tolerated. That's why the titles won are tainted. Don't forget we haven't discussed the huge sums spent on senior team preparations yet or discussed the sponsorship money.

Speak up? Whenever someone does they get labelled as jealous or their own county gets attacked. The amount of abuse people in the media get for just asking questions about this is crazy.

By your own arguments, shouldn't those 6 counties be getting a far higher level of funding than anyone else?
Should Dublin get the huge resources because of population or should Dublin not be split because not many are interested in the GAA? You can't have it both ways.

The imbalances are huge!! The structures set up for Dublin make it almost impossible to fail. How are other counties meant to compete?
I've already pointed out that this is driving the GAA down a dangerous road. One where elitism and financial might takes over.

We need to put a stop to it now. Splitting Dublin is essential to that but also making sure systems are put in place in all counties and the finance is given fairly to ensure its success.
That would be a fair and equitable result. All counties would compete on an equal footing.

The benefits to this are huge. Increased standards countrywide would obviously increase attendance and participation rates. We'll have 4 new counties competing, strong and vibrant inter county football and hurling competitions and of course, we've seen what the structures have done for the club scene in Dublin, that can be replicated country wide.

frankled

DONTMATTER wrote: »

I was just pointing out that it wasn't Dublin getting their **** together as you said, but the GAA sorting it for them!! The Strategic Review committee basically said it was a mess. The millions upon millions of euros sorted that.

Why should Dublin get millions more than anyone else? All other counties get around the same amount, why should Dublin get nearly 50% of the funding since 2005? Have Cork and Antrim got half of what Dublin received?

I've already said about other counties having the door shut on them by HQ. It was a business decision by the GAA. It was to make money. It's proving detrimental to our games.

52 titles in13 years, about the same amount that Dublin won in the 40 years before that! At the exact same time that huge finance was pumped into Dublin gaa. To deny the connection would be incredulous.
How can you explain the improvements in club competitions even?

Dublin got their house in order with the aid of millions upon millions of Euro. That's one of the main reasons why the split must happen. You can't ignore that.
A county competing at a professional level against amateur counties cannot be tolerated. That's why the titles won are tainted. Don't forget we haven't discussed the huge sums spent on senior team preparations yet or discussed the sponsorship money.

Speak up? Whenever someone does they get labelled as jealous or their own county gets attacked. The amount of abuse people in the media get for just asking questions about this is crazy.

By your own arguments, shouldn't those 6 counties be getting a far higher level of funding than anyone else?
Should Dublin get the huge resources because of population or should Dublin not be split because not many are interested in the GAA? You can't have it both ways.

The imbalances are huge!! The structures set up for Dublin make it almost impossible to fail. How are other counties meant to compete?
I've already pointed out that this is driving the GAA down a dangerous road. One where elitism and financial might takes over.

We need to put a stop to it now. Splitting Dublin is essential to that but also making sure systems are put in place in all counties and the finance is given fairly to ensure its success.
That would be a fair and equitable result. All counties would compete on an equal footing.

The benefits to this are huge. Increased standards countrywide would obviously increase attendance and participation rates. We'll have 4 new counties competing, strong and vibrant inter county football and hurling competitions and of course, we've seen what the structures have done for the club scene in Dublin, that can be replicated country wide.

One thing I'd ask is this- if all of the imbalances/perceived or real unfair advantages were 'fixed' to the extent that there was true equity amongst all 32 counties, would the requirement still be there for Dublin to be split in your opinion? Would it not be better to start there, fix whatever imbalances/issues that there might be, and then see where we are? (I'm against the split in all cases but I feel this to be a more logical line of thinking at least)

I don't argue your intentions with your argument here. But I think the problems are overstated and over-hyped to a huge extent, and I think you're dead set on only one solution.

DONTMATTER

frankled wrote: »

One thing I'd ask is this- if all of the imbalances/perceived or real unfair advantages were 'fixed' to the extent that there was true equity amongst all 32 counties, would the requirement still be there for Dublin to be split in your opinion? Would it not be better to start there, fix whatever imbalances/issues that there might be, and then see where we are? (I'm against the split in all cases but I feel this to be a more logical line of thinking at least)

I don't argue your intentions with your argument here. But I think the problems are overstated and over-hyped to a huge extent, and I think you're dead set on only one solution.

There's nothing perceived about it. The huge funding imbalance is a cold, hard, fact. It's undeniable and it's been happening since 2005.
For the level of imbalance and the length of time it's existed, it leaves us with no choice. There must be a split.

As has been pointed out in this thread. The money has been used to develop elite talent. Small clubs haven't seen much of it. Super clubs are now completely dominant and are hoovering up massive playing numbers. The drop off rates are huge.
I think only 1 new club has been formed, no real impact has been made in places where rugby and soccer are strong.
Splitting Dublin into 4 will make these issues easier to manage. The 4 new counties will get a fair level of funding the same as every other county.
This focused approach will increase playing numbers in these areas, local communities will have pride in local players representing their areas, competitions as a whole will be strengthened.

Only positive outcomes will result from this. It'll be a good thing for Gaelic Games. It has to happen.