Should Dublin Football be split?

DONTMATTER

BonnieSituation wrote: »

How are you getting that i have uttered contempt for GAA in other counties?

I have utter contempt at people posting shoite and complaining about something and offering no solution.

The financial windfall handed to Dublin Gaa has not only bought them titles but it's also killing our games in other counties.

BonnieSituation

machiavellianme wrote: »

Playing in Portlaoise against Laois would be an away game.
Playing in Portlaoise against Wicklow would be a neutral venue.

Ah jaysus really that's the level of "Dublin not playing away from home" has gotten to.

Gimme a break.

DONTMATTER

BonnieSituation wrote: »

And ever other county doesn't have 1.5million people and rugby, soccer, cricket, athletics, running and cycling to contend with either.

Do Antrim and Cork get 750,000 yearly for player development?
Does sports are played outside Dublin too you know?

DONTMATTER

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Ah jaysus really that's the level of "Dublin not playing away from home" has gotten to.

Gimme a break.

You're so spoilt in Dublin that you don't know what an away game is!

cms88

BonnieSituation wrote: »

And ever other county doesn't have 1.5million people and rugby, soccer, cricket, athletics, running and cycling to contend with either.

Since when was rugby, soccer etc only played in Dublin?

cms88

BonnieSituation wrote: »

The worst thing we can do is acknowledge it and make a thread

The first person to ever suggest it was an ex Dublin manager....

Justin10

It's extremely simple, the Leinster championship hasn't been good in over 15 years, competitive yes but good no.

Only reason it was competitive was because the standard was poor all round. The fall off recently is due to the horrific management in kildare and meath, and in small part to do with Dublin pushing on.

Same for Munster, Kerry have dominated, yes Cork the odd time has caught them but overall Kerry dominated, exact same in connacht, Galway and Mayo are the powerhouse and the others pick up a connacht championship here and there.

Dublin have a fantastic group of players at the moment. They've won All irelands by feck all.

The disdain for Dublin success is amazing to see.

The probably imo is three key things, firstly the so called big counties are currently being managed at a county board level truly horrendously, examples Cork, Kildare, Meath, like seriously what is their excuse.
Secondly I fully believe the smaller counties need more funding but will this funding be used correctly, if not what's the point. Have to remember the small counties have always been small counties, example would be Cavan, had underage success but hasn't transpired to senior level. Derry for example are now on a level with London.

Thirdly we need to change the championship structure and again I've no idea what the best structure is but it needs a change.

BonnieSituation

DONTMATTER wrote: »

Splitting Dublin is a good start, we can work from there.

So you split Dublin... Then what?

Whats the CBA that you have done that says that is a good idea?

I mean, isn't there a chance that you have 2 Dublin teams (assuming a north/south split) that are powering through Leinster... To constantly play each other.

And possibly in the AI series.

You then have a situation where the likes of me wouldn't ever go to a game again.

So now you have 2 teams to support and less revenue.


I still fail to see what advantage that has for the game nationwide.

Do you only split the footballers? Only from senior?
---
When Rangers were demoted to the Scottish 3rd division there was a school of thought that all it did was remove potential promotion places from other teams as they were inevitably gonna finish top. All that happened is that you delayed the inevitable by 4/5years and further weakened the SPFL in the process.

The reason I bring this up is that there are always unintended consequences for your actions. It's not as simple as just "split Dublin".

By doing that you dilute and change something.

Whether it's a reduction in sponsorship or money from attendances there will be other effects.

And, splitting Dublin doesn't make anyone else better so you would likely increase the hegemony.


---

I've a better idea, how about other "smaller" counties ask Dublin, Tyrone and Kerry and Mayo and Donegal and Carlow what they are doing? And take that help.

And add to it, Leinster Council allowing Dublin to play away. Cos of the horn that ye all seem to have for that.

BonnieSituation

DONTMATTER wrote: »

You're so spoilt in Dublin that you don't know what an away game is!

This entire argument bis nonsense.

What does playing Wicklow in Aughrim achieve other than reduced attendances and the like?

You make out like we have the issue. It's all about the Leinster Council I'm afraid.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

salmocab

Imagine if you did split Dublin in 2 or even 4 how much funding they would have to get to get that going, im actually coming around to the idea now just to see some peoples rage on here.

BonnieSituation

cms88 wrote: »

The first person to ever suggest it was an ex Dublin manager....

So?

Was it Tommy Carr or Tommy Lyons?

Coillte_Bhoy

DONTMATTER wrote: »

The B championship would be exactly the same.

I dont agree. The secondary comps in hurling allow players and teams to compete at their own level and i think they have been pretty successful in that regard.

Now the gap in hurling between the top tier and the rest is absolutely massive so there is little or no prospect of coming up through the levels and challenging for the AI. This is not the case in football where lesser teams can make a breakthrough. I just think the notion of all football teams being on an equal footing in the cship is ludicrous, it doesnt happen in any other major sport afaik. What good dies it do counties to be at the end of hammerings year after year? No wonder so many players dont want to know

bucketybuck

Deleted User wrote: »

Carlow are the opposite of this at the moment. They are focused on what they are good at and have a real team spirit within the squad

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

They are focused, doing brilliant work, have a real team spirit...

...and its all completely irrelevant, because no matter how much effort the likes of Carlow put in they will never be able to bridge that gap between them and Dublin.

Thats the whole point here, that in an era of professionally prepared teams spirit and pluck is no longer enough, so unless success is getting a few pats on the back then no, it doesn't show it can be done.

DONTMATTER

BonnieSituation wrote: »

So you split Dublin... Then what?

Whats the CBA that you have done that says that is a good idea?

I mean, isn't there a chance that you have 2 Dublin teams (assuming a north/south split) that are powering through Leinster... To constantly play each other.

And possibly in the AI series.

You then have a situation where the likes of me wouldn't ever go to a game again.

So now you have 2 teams to support and less revenue.


I still fail to see what advantage that has for the game nationwide.

Do you only split the footballers? Only from senior?
---
When Rangers were demoted to the Scottish 3rd division there was a school of thought that all it did was remove potential promotion places from other teams as they were inevitably gonna finish top. All that happened is that you delayed the inevitable by 4/5years and further weakened the SPFL in the process.

The reason I bring this up is that there are always unintended consequences for your actions. It's not as simple as just "split Dublin".

By doing that you dilute and change something.

Whether it's a reduction in sponsorship or money from attendances there will be other effects.

And, splitting Dublin doesn't make anyone else better so you would likely increase the hegemony.


---

I've a better idea, how about other "smaller" counties ask Dublin, Tyrone and Kerry and Mayo and Donegal and Carlow what they are doing? And take that help.

And add to it, Leinster Council allowing Dublin to play away. Cos of the horn that ye all seem to have for that.

Split Dublin into 4. That'll free up the money Dublin refuse to give up.

The plan then will be to put in place structures nationwide that were set up for Dublin in 2005. Don't leave it in charge of county boards. Have paid development officers ensuring standards are met. This should be set up in every county. You know, actually have a fair system?
Then every county competes on an equal footing. That's a basic outline of the plan. There's more detail and I will get back to that when I have more time.
The benefits of this approach is obvious but again I'll go into more detail at a later date.

BonnieSituation

bucketybuck wrote: »

They are focused, doing brilliant work, have a real team spirit...

...and its all completely irrelevant, because no matter how much effort the likes of Carlow put in they will never be able to bridge that gap between them and Dublin.

Thats the whole point here, that in an era of professionally prepared teams spirit and pluck is no longer enough, so unless success is getting a few pats on the back then no, it doesn't show it can be done.

But imagine if Meath or Cork or Kildare were half as organised as Carlow.

Splitting Dublin doesn't make these teams any less crap. This is the nub of the argument for me and no one who has been "pro-split" has been able to countenance why they're so bad and why Dublin being split would make them more competitive.

As soon as someone does that then I'm sure those of us out there who want to see the death of the GAA in all other counties might actually engage with the concept of splitting our county.

But until then...

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

DONTMATTER

BonnieSituation wrote: »

This entire argument bis nonsense.

What does playing Wicklow in Aughrim achieve other than reduced attendances and the like?

You make out like we have the issue. It's all about the Leinster Council I'm afraid.

Just informing you that you still haven't played an away game since 2006 in football. Dublin are on the leinster council and they have the rest of them over a barrel.

BonnieSituation

DONTMATTER wrote: »

Split Dublin into 4. That'll free up the money Dublin refuse to give up.

The plan then will be to put in place structures nationwide that were set up for Dublin in 2005. Don't leave it in charge of county boards. Have paid development officers ensuring standards are met. This should be set up in every county. You know, actually have a fair system?
Then every county competes on an equal footing. That's a basic outline of the plan. There's more detail and I will get back to that when I have more time.
The benefits of this approach is obvious but again I'll go into more detail at a later date.

So set up 4 structures from scratch. That won't be cheap. And will hoover up a lot of resources.

And you'd base it on the nonsense current LA borders of Dublin I take it?

---

So you're saying that the gaa should sort stuff out? Sounds to me like Dublin aren't the issue here.

Maybe if we set up those structures on a regional basis first then see where we're at.

And maybe, this is a mad idea, ask the good counties, like Dublin and Kerry for input. Cos they seem to know what they're doing.

salmocab

DONTMATTER wrote: »

Just informing you that you still haven't played an away game since 2006 in football. Dublin are on the leinster council and they have the rest of them over a barrel.

Well by that measure when did they last play a home game?

DONTMATTER

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

I dont agree. The secondary comps in hurling allow players and teams to compete at their own level and i think they have been pretty successful in that regard.

Now the gap in hurling between the top tier and the rest is absolutely massive so there is little or no prospect of coming up through the levels and challenging for the AI. This is not the case in football where lesser teams can make a breakthrough. I just think the notion of all football teams being on an equal footing in the cship is ludicrous, it doesnt happen in any other major sport afaik. What good dies it do counties to be at the end of hammerings year after year? No wonder so many players dont want to know

If you kick teams to the b championship it will be the end of any idea of them ever playing at the top level. It will kill Gaelic football in those counties.
Hammerings year after year? You want to throw Carlow into the b championship! It would be meaningless to them. Victories like they've recently got would never happen again.

BonnieSituation

DONTMATTER wrote: »

Just informing you that you still haven't played an away game since 2006 in football. Dublin are on the leinster council and they have the rest of them over a barrel.

Gas.

You're playing a blinder with this one.

If only someone could get the voting records of Leinster council meetings to show up the twaddle you spout.

Coillte_Bhoy

DONTMATTER wrote: »

If you kick teams to the b championship it will be the end of any idea of them ever playing at the top level. It will kill Gaelic football in those counties.
Hammerings year after year? You want to throw Carlow into the b championship! It would be meaningless to them. Victories like they've recently got would never happen again.

What hysterical nonsense. You would have promotion and relegation between the tiers as happened with club cships. Imagine the hype and excitement in Carlow if they are on a good run in the B tier and they have a chance of moving up next year to play the big boys?

Look at how popular the league has become. Because teams are competing with other teams on their level

Bonniedog

DONTMATTER wrote: »

Just informing you that you still haven't played an away game since 2006 in football. Dublin are on the leinster council and they have the rest of them over a barrel.

There should really be a fact check before comments are posted.

But just to deal with the Leinster Council part; Dublin have one vote. The other counties have consistently voted to have games in CP so they make money out of it, Hasn't stopped some of them voting for that and then also whinging about Dublin getting home games. Typical two facedness. Dublin have been beaten twice in 40 years in many games outside of Dublin. And about six times in 70 years. Change the record my friend.

Sterling Archer

Haven't we done this before? Oh well let's go again
So....
Should Dublin be split? No
Is there a problem with Dublin being too dominant? Yes
Do Dublin play games at there official home stadium? No
Do they play most games in Croke Park? Yes
Does this p*ss off some people? Yes
Do some people see this as an unfair advantage? Yes
Is this a result of the Gaa realising Dublin could be a Cash cow? Yes

Is there a fix? Yes
The Gaa need to help create more "Dublins" I'd be happy with 3-4 "Dublins" contesting the Championship, it just needs the Gaa to invest in the same way as they have with the Dubs

Does any of the above matter? Not really No, the Gaa is so broken it's hard to comprehend, Dublin aren't the problem, it's the behaviour of the Gaa and the way they setup and lay things out.

Coillte_Bhoy

DONTMATTER wrote: »

Just informing you that you still haven't played an away game since 2006 in football. Dublin are on the leinster council and they have the rest of them over a barrel.

Go on then. We're all ears

bucketybuck

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It is about that, I'm from a smaller county that regularly punches above its weight and I'm sick to my hole of praise for getting a shock result or getting to a quarter final. Its patronising and meaningless.

I do not want Dublin split, but consider this. Fermanagh can go out and get a shock result against favourites Monaghan. They almost beat Mayo a few years ago. The likes of Carlow, Longford could go out and get a shock result against so called big guns like Cork or Tyrone.

But they will never beat Dublin, and when the likes of Fermanagh went on a good run and got to the quarters to play Dublin they were batted aside like a junior team. It was a good laugh but never a serious game.

Hard work and spirit is a great leveller but it cannot compete against teams that are supported and prepared to the extent Dublin currently are. They have some very real, very significant advantages over other counties and it is close to a tipping point where it doesn't matter what most other counties do, they won't be able to bridge that gap.

Splitting Dublin is not the answer, but if the GAA does not seriously consider the way it allocates its resources and runs its competitions it is going to find itself in 10 years time with a dead rubber competition that is not fit for purpose and no longer relevant.

bucketybuck

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Look at how popular the league has become. Because teams are competing with other teams on their level

The league is popular? I would not say it is unpopular but I don't think anybody gives a toss about the league. Win lose or draw the league is just prep for the championship.

Coillte_Bhoy

DONTMATTER wrote: »

Split Dublin into 4. That'll free up the money Dublin refuse to give up.

The plan then will be to put in place structures nationwide that were set up for Dublin in 2005. Don't leave it in charge of county boards. Have paid development officers ensuring standards are met. This should be set up in every county. You know, actually have a fair system?
Then every county competes on an equal footing. That's a basic outline of the plan. There's more detail and I will get back to that when I have more time.
The benefits of this approach is obvious but again I'll go into more detail at a later date.

Have you really thought through this? There are already hundreds of development officers employed nationally

Coillte_Bhoy

salmocab wrote: »

Well by that measure when did they last play a home game?

A game in Dublin is a home game surely?

Coillte_Bhoy

bucketybuck wrote: »

The league is popular? I would not say it is unpopular but I don't think anybody gives a toss about the league. Win lose or draw the league is just prep for the championship.

Thats a fair point but i was really talking about the actual games. Big crowds and very few one sided hammerings. Personally i would much rather go to a league game than to to a one sided qualifier like we have in Limerick today

odyssey06

If you want a team like Carlow to win a title then abolish qualifiers and Super 8s, reduce subs to 3, and don't split Dublin.

In the old days, a 'minnow' team could beat Dublin in Leinster in an upset and go onto win Leinster final and out into the All Ireland series. Qualifiers and Super 8s reduce the opportunity for surprises like this and inevitably favours the big teams.
(Although this is open to the criticism that even under that system in the past upsets were very low)

If you split Dublin in two or four, you put four more teams between a Carlow or a Wicklow and a Leinster title.

You could also allow 'parentage' for people to play for the county of their birth regardless of the county they play club football in.

BonnieSituation

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

A game in Dublin is a home game surely?

By the same token, a game outside Dublin is an away game.

BonnieSituation

odyssey06 wrote: »

If you want a team like Carlow to win a title then abolish qualifiers and Super 8s, reduce subs to 3, and don't split Dublin.

In the old days, a 'minnow' team could beat Dublin in Leinster in an upset and go onto win Leinster final and out into the All Ireland series. Qualifiers and Super 8s reduce the opportunity for surprises like this and inevitably favours the big teams.
(Although this is open to the criticism that even under that system in the past upsets were very low)

If you split Dublin in two or four, you put four more teams between a Carlow or a Wicklow and a Leinster title.

You could also allow 'parentage' for people to play for the county of their birth regardless of the county they play club football in.

There is that rule.

Coillte_Bhoy

BonnieSituation wrote: »

By the same token, a game outside Dublin is an away game.

Well by most peoples understanding, a home game is when you play in your home county, an away game when you play in your opponents county and a neutral venue is just that, neutral.

munster87

BonnieSituation wrote: »

By the same token, a game outside Dublin is an away game.

Ah now, it’s an away game if the other team is at home. Otherwise it’s a neutral venue. That’s clear in any sport surely?

Powerhouse

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Well by most peoples understanding, a home game is when you play in your home county, an away game when you play in your opponents county and a neutral venue is just that, neutral.

That's the same as saying that Chelsea had home advantage over Manchester United in the FA Cup final because it was played in London. That wouldn't be most people's understanding I'd say.

blanch152

DONTMATTER wrote: »

Split Dublin into 4. That'll free up the money Dublin refuse to give up.

The plan then will be to put in place structures nationwide that were set up for Dublin in 2005. Don't leave it in charge of county boards. Have paid development officers ensuring standards are met. This should be set up in every county. You know, actually have a fair system?
Then every county competes on an equal footing. That's a basic outline of the plan. There's more detail and I will get back to that when I have more time.
The benefits of this approach is obvious but again I'll go into more detail at a later date.

I look forward to the All-Ireland semi-finals involving four Dublin teams, when the likes of you will be complaining about how the game has been ruined.

Why do silly threads like this be allowed run and run. There are two possible agenda in splitting Dublin:

1. Improve the competition: That requires combining other counties as well as splitting Dublin

2. Bring Dublin down: Those behind this either want to restore the lost domination of Kerry or rescue poor Mayo from their famine. It is a nakedly selfish agenda that does nothing for the game outside of a few counties.

So, if you actually want to have a fair system, you need to look at combining counties as well as splitting them. There is no point in giving money to other counties if they don't have the population of kids to benefit from the coaching.

Dublin will always have more paid development officers because they have more kids, and the aim of development officers is to get kids playing the game, not to produce senior players. Imagine if you gave Leitrim the same money as Dublin, well the kids in Leitrim would be practically getting one-to-one training.

The huge success of development officers in Dublin hasn't been seen in the senior team, it has been seen in kids playing with hurls all over parts of Dublin that never saw any Gaelic being played.

munster87

Powerhouse wrote: »

That's the same as saying that Chelsea had home advantage over Manchester United in the FA Cup final because it was played in London. That wouldn't be most people's understanding I'd say.

Chelsea play their home games in Stamford Bridge, not Wembley. Dublin play their home games in Croke Park. So it’s not the same is it?

Dots1982

Think the future is county amalgamations and professionalism.

Call it an elite attitude but Dublin are a proper team where every player is worth paying to watch.

Other counties try their best but there are far too many average footballers involved in intercounty teams. Dublin are the model to follow.

The population becoming more urban based means intercounty structure has probably only a shelf life of 10 years left.

That said I think Dublin should be humble enough about their victories and domination.

They are doing what they should do with the natural advantages and the other not natural advantages they have.

But forcing them to split out of bitterness is not a good solution and will not help 70% of counties as they’ll still be cannon fodder to the bigger counties.

Coillte_Bhoy

Powerhouse wrote: »

That's the same as saying that Chelsea had home advantage over Manchester United in the FA Cup final because it was played in London. That wouldn't be most people's understanding I'd say.

Nah its not the same. Are Liverpool at home when they play Everton in Goodison Park?

TrueGael

How come Laois, Westmeath, Meath, Kildare, Offaly could compete and beat Dublin in the early to mid 00s yet the last 5/6 years be glad of losing early matches so they avoid getting slaughtered by them

I mean it's clearly not the financial doping since the mid noughties which has caused the chasm we have established that, so what is it? Really can't put my finger on it!!!!!!!

BonnieSituation

munster87 wrote: »

Ah now, it’s an away game if the other team is at home. Otherwise it’s a neutral venue. That’s clear in any sport surely?

Like when we play at Croker is neutral. And in Parnell Park is home. We can do this all day.

But also really irrelevant to this argument.

BonnieSituation

blanch152 wrote: »

I look forward to the All-Ireland semi-finals involving four Dublin teams, when the likes of you will be complaining about how the game has been ruined.

Why do silly threads like this be allowed run and run. There are two possible agenda in splitting Dublin:

1. Improve the competition: That requires combining other counties as well as splitting Dublin

2. Bring Dublin down: Those behind this either want to restore the lost domination of Kerry or rescue poor Mayo from their famine. It is a nakedly selfish agenda that does nothing for the game outside of a few counties.

So, if you actually want to have a fair system, you need to look at combining counties as well as splitting them. There is no point in giving money to other counties if they don't have the population of kids to benefit from the coaching.

Dublin will always have more paid development officers because they have more kids, and the aim of development officers is to get kids playing the game, not to produce senior players. Imagine if you gave Leitrim the same money as Dublin, well the kids in Leitrim would be practically getting one-to-one training.

The huge success of development officers in Dublin hasn't been seen in the senior team, it has been seen in kids playing with hurls all over parts of Dublin that never saw any Gaelic being played.

This thread exists to stop others being ruined.

So we'll keep the bitterness in here blanch.

BonnieSituation

TrueGael wrote: »

How come Laois, Westmeath, Meath, Kildare, Offaly could compete and beat Dublin in the early to mid 00s yet the last 5/6 years be glad of losing early matches so they avoid getting slaughtered by them

I mean it's clearly not the financial doping since the mid noughties which has caused the chasm we have established that, so what is it? Really can't put my finger on it!!!!!!!

And in turn what has happened to those counties in that time?
Us being great didn't make them crap.

Have they been turning it on and had our superior resources beat them out the gate... Or have they been ****e and in disarray coupled with us getting out act together?

munster87

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Like when we play at Croker is neutral. And in Parnell Park is home. We can do this all day.

But also really irrelevant to this argument.

What’s the story in the super 8s, do Dublin play one game at home in Parnell Park and one neutral game in Croke Park or are you stuck with the disadvantage of two neutral games in Croke Park?

Hector Bellend

Here's an idea.

Instead of diminishing the standard of Dublin football, why don't the G.A.A spend money on raising the standard of football everywhere else.

If they're not going to pay players for their time at least do something useful with the money.

Hector Bellend

munster87 wrote: »

What’s the story in the super 8s, do Dublin play one game at home in Parnell Park and one neutral game in Croke Park or are you stuck with the disadvantage of two neutral games in Croke Park?

I think we all know whats happening there

BonnieSituation

munster87 wrote: »

What’s the story in the super 8s, do Dublin play one game at home in Parnell Park and one neutral game in Croke Park or are you stuck with the disadvantage of two neutral games in Croke Park?

Unfortunately not. We'll be forced to play 2/3 games in Croker. Assuming we win Leinster and don't come a cropper against Longford and Carlow/Laois.

TrueGael

Dots1982 wrote: »

Think the future is county amalgamations and professionalism.

Call it an elite attitude but Dublin are a proper team where every player is worth paying to watch.

Other counties try their best but there are far too many average footballers involved in intercounty teams. Dublin are the model to follow.

The population becoming more urban based means intercounty structure has probably only a shelf life of 10 years left.

That said I think Dublin should be humble enough about their victories and domination.

They are doing what they should do with the natural advantages and the other not natural advantages they have.

But forcing them to split out of bitterness is not a good solution and will not help 70% of counties as they’ll still be cannon fodder to the bigger counties.

Yeah the Dublin model, it's like saying to the local grocer why don't you just replicate the Dunnes Stores model shut you'll be a multi millionaire if you copy them



Also I love how cocooned their fans are that they think a neutral venue is an away game!!!! Spoilt rich kid brats