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What will happen in this situation?

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  • 06-06-2018 12:04pm
    #1
    ninjarambohd
    Registered Users Posts: 172 ✭✭


    Hi all. I have a small question for a friend of mine who is currently living in Dublin. She has filed a dispute against her landlord as he is accusing her of owing him arrears and gave her a notice of termination. Say she goes to the tribunal hearing, the hearing goes her way or the other way around and has to pay the arrears and she does does the notice of termination expire? Can she still stay in the house and if the landlord wants his house back he has to send her another notice of termination for other reasons?


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    #2
    Glass fused light
    Registered Users Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭Glass fused light


    ninjarambohd wrote: »
    Hi all. I have a small question for a friend of mine who is currently living in Dublin. She has filed a dispute against her landlord as he is accusing her of owing him arrears and gave her a notice of termination. Say she goes to the tribunal hearing, the hearing goes her way or the other way around and has to pay the arrears and she does does the notice of termination expire? Can she still stay in the house and if the landlord wants his house back he has to send her another notice of termination for other reasons?
    she is either in arrears or not. If she agreed a lease amont she needs to pay it. If there was a rent review and the amount has increased and she is disputing the amount or the notice she should request an hearing with the RTB. If she is not disputing she either needed to pay the new full amount or move out.

    If she is in arrears she is in breach of her lease and the landlord can seek to have the lease ended as the result of her action. If she goes to the hearing and it's found that she is in arrears the landlord is entitled to look for to get the property back. If the landlord is determined to get the property back it may be in her long term interest to seek alternative accommodation arrangements rather than having a running battle with the landlord.


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    #3
    frag420
    Registered Users Posts: 6,158 ✭✭✭frag420


    So does she owe arrears or not?

    If she does then she best pay them. Can she prove via bank statements that she is fully up to date with all payments?

    ninjarambohd wrote: »
    Hi all. I have a small question for a friend of mine who is currently living in Dublin. She has filed a dispute against her landlord as he is accusing her of owing him arrears and gave her a notice of termination. Say she goes to the tribunal hearing, the hearing goes her way or the other way around and has to pay the arrears and she does does the notice of termination expire? Can she still stay in the house and if the landlord wants his house back he has to send her another notice of termination for other reasons?


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    #4
    Askthe EA
    Registered Users Posts: 724 ✭✭✭Askthe EA


    Is she actually in arrears or playing a game?


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    #5
    ninjarambohd
    Registered Users Posts: 172 ✭✭ninjarambohd


    No she is sure she is not in arrears. Because the landlord first said she is in arrears since 2017 then said you are in arrears since 2012. Every time she paid no one ever said anything to her it wasn't even noted in her rent book.


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    #6
    10pennymixup
    Registered Users Posts: 516 ✭✭✭10pennymixup


    ninjarambohd wrote: »
    Hi all. I have a small question for a friend of mine who is currently living in Dublin. She has filed a dispute against her landlord as he is accusing her of owing him arrears and gave her a notice of termination. Say she goes to the tribunal hearing, the hearing goes her way or the other way around and has to pay the arrears and she does does the notice of termination expire? Can she still stay in the house and if the landlord wants his house back he has to send her another notice of termination for other reasons?

    A bit of ambiguity in the OP, but to answer this question simply. If the LL can prove that there is rent arrears or the tenant cannot prove that there isn't and the RTB decides that the LL has issued a valid notice of termination due to rent arrears, then no, paying off the rent arrears does not cancel the notice of termination.


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    #7
    JeffKenna
    Registered Users Posts: 4,564 ✭✭✭JeffKenna


    10pennymixup wrote: »
    A bit of ambiguity in the OP, but to answer this question simply. If the LL can prove that there is rent arrears or the tenant cannot prove that there isn't and the RTB decides that the LL has issued a valid notice of termination due to rent arrears, then no, paying off the rent arrears does not cancel the notice of termination.

    Get your friend to tell the landlord that she isn't moving out on the street regardless of any notice of termination and see if it changes their attitude a bit.


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    #8
    ninjarambohd
    Registered Users Posts: 172 ✭✭ninjarambohd


    What if she can prove that she has no arrears?


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    #9
    Lantus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,027 ✭✭✭Lantus


    ninjarambohd wrote:
    What if she can prove that she has no arrears?

    Then the rtb should rule in her favour? The termination notice should be invalid.


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    #10
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    ninjarambohd wrote: »
    What if she can prove that she has no arrears?

    Can she prove it? Seems strange if she has tangible proof that this situation arose, what proof has the LL? Why is h saying she is in arrears?


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    #11
    Askthe EA
    Registered Users Posts: 724 ✭✭✭Askthe EA


    ninjarambohd wrote: »
    . Every time she paid no one ever said anything to her it wasn't even noted in her rent book.

    So, she has a rent book outlining that she has paid the same amount every week / month? Sorry OP, just trying to get clarity as your post asks more questions than it answers.

    Did the LL raise her rent?


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    #12
    rightmove
    Registered Users Posts: 995 ✭✭✭rightmove


    Ok is the notice to terminate for the late payment or is it just that a notice to terminate with correct length of time etc

    Was 14 day warning issued.

    When was the rent due and when is it paid. Perhaps she let it gradually slip and landlord has now had enough ?


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    #13
    ninjarambohd
    Registered Users Posts: 172 ✭✭ninjarambohd


    Askthe EA wrote: »
    So, she has a rent book outlining that she has paid the same amount every week / month? Sorry OP, just trying to get clarity as your post asks more questions than it answers.

    Did the LL raise her rent?

    Exactly yes. No rent was not increased


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    #14
    10pennymixup
    Registered Users Posts: 516 ✭✭✭10pennymixup


    JeffKenna wrote: »
    Get your friend to tell the landlord that she isn't moving out on the street regardless of any notice of termination and see if it changes their attitude a bit.

    What if anything has this to do with my post? I answered their question. Yours doesn't.

    And as advice, this is p*ss poor. As sure way of ensuring that the LL will try to have them out one way or another, as soon as they possibly can.

    Would they not be better asking the LL for details of the arrears (if any) and maybe trying to come to some sort of agreement?


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    #15
    Askthe EA
    Registered Users Posts: 724 ✭✭✭Askthe EA


    ninjarambohd wrote: »
    Exactly yes. No rent was not increased

    This doesnt make much sense OP,

    Either shes not telling you the truth (possible), or the landlord is an absolute idiot (also possible).

    If she is being truthful then the landlord doesn't have a leg to stand on unless he is saying that he served a rent review and your friend hasnt paid it. Even if this is the case, he should have served her with a 14 day notice to clear arrears before serving her the 28 day termination notice. If he hasnt done this then the termination notice is invalid.

    If he has issued her a notice of termination for another reason (other than arrears) it is a whole different question.

    If the notice is deemed invalid, then yes he will have to issue her with another notice specifying one of the 4 reasons for termination of a part 4 tenancy but he has put himself on shakey ground and I'd be surprised if any LL nowadays would do so.


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    #16
    ninjarambohd
    Registered Users Posts: 172 ✭✭ninjarambohd


    Askthe EA wrote: »
    This doesnt make much sense OP,

    Either shes not telling you the truth (possible), or the landlord is an absolute idiot (also possible).

    If she is being truthful then the landlord doesn't have a leg to stand on unless he is saying that he served a rent review and your friend hasnt paid it. Even if this is the case, he should have served her with a 14 day notice to clear arrears before serving her the 28 day termination notice. If he hasnt done this then the termination notice is invalid.

    If he has issued her a notice of termination for another reason (other than arrears) it is a whole different question.

    If the notice is deemed invalid, then yes he will have to issue her with another notice specifying one of the 4 reasons for termination of a part 4 tenancy but he has put himself on shakey ground and I'd be surprised if any LL nowadays would do so.

    I just asked her. She says she was given a 14 day notice. She tried to get in contact with the ll but didn't have his number or anything and the agency wouldn't do much to help. The only thing the ll gave was bank statements from 2016 then a few months later a bank statement from 2012 saying she owes him since then. She is in absolute shock. She was telling me the other day if I was in arrears since then why not let me know then as opposed to now nearly 6 years later.


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    #17
    Tiddlypeeps
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,103 ✭✭✭Tiddlypeeps


    ninjarambohd wrote: »
    I just asked her. She says she was given a 14 day notice. She tried to get in contact with the ll but didn't have his number or anything and the agency wouldn't do much to help. The only thing the ll gave was bank statements from 2016 then a few months later a bank statement from 2012 saying she owes him since then. She is in absolute shock. She was telling me the other day if I was in arrears since then why not let me know then as opposed to now nearly 6 years later.

    Does she have her original lease stating how much the rent was when she moved in?

    Even if that number is different from the rent she has been paying I doubt the RTB would do anything about it considering the landlord said nothing for 6 years, but who knows.


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    #18
    ninjarambohd
    Registered Users Posts: 172 ✭✭ninjarambohd


    Tiddlypeeps wrote: »
    Does she have her original lease stating how much the rent was when she moved in?

    Even if that number is different from the rent she has been paying I doubt the RTB would do anything about it considering the landlord said nothing for 6 years, but who knows.

    Yes she has her lease from when she moved in.


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    #19
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,455 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    So she has a lease from 2012 stating how much she pays each month, the rent hasn't increased since, and has a rent book signed by the landlord each month which shows the same amount paid each month since?


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    #20
    ninjarambohd
    Registered Users Posts: 172 ✭✭ninjarambohd


    TheChizler wrote: »
    So she has a lease from 2012 stating how much she pays each month, the rent hasn't increased since, and has a rent book signed by the landlord each month which shows the same amount paid each month since?

    yes exactly. She is showing me her rent book right now and there is a section which says arrears on it. All the rent books she has has nothing written in the arrears part of it at all.


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    #21
    Browney7
    Registered Users Posts: 3,100 ✭✭✭Browney7


    OP, just to clarify, are you saying your friend is thinking of bringing the landlord to mediation/RTB or has the landlord gone to the RTB?

    What evidence has your friend been furnished with to say she's in arrears? Seems strange she would have a rent book if she is paying by bank transfer - or is she paying cash?


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    #22
    ninjarambohd
    Registered Users Posts: 172 ✭✭ninjarambohd


    Browney7 wrote: »
    OP, just to clarify, are you saying your friend is thinking of bringing the landlord to mediation/RTB or has the landlord gone to the RTB?

    What evidence has your friend been furnished with to say she's in arrears? Seems strange she would have a rent book if she is paying by bank transfer - or is she paying cash?


    Well she pays by cash and she is the one who has filed the dispute. The only thing she was given was a list of numbers of how much she owes since 2016 and how much the total is now. And then another one a few months later which shows the same things except from the year 2012.


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    #23
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Sound like poor record keeping, and perhaps rent below market rate. The landlord looking for reasons to terminate, the tenant looking to keep the status quo.

    This is why it should be paid through the bank so no one can dispute it later.


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    #24
    ninjarambohd
    Registered Users Posts: 172 ✭✭ninjarambohd


    So who has the right here her or the LL?


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    #25
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,455 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    ninjarambohd wrote: »
    yes exactly. She is showing me her rent book right now and there is a section which says arrears on it. All the rent books she has has nothing written in the arrears part of it at all.
    And just to be absolutely pedantic did she go through all the payments columns to make sure there was nothing missing? Who signed the rent book, landlord or agent? Who was the cash paid to?


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    #26
    ninjarambohd
    Registered Users Posts: 172 ✭✭ninjarambohd


    TheChizler wrote: »
    And just to be absolutely pedantic did she go through all the payments columns to make sure there was nothing missing? Who signed the rent book, landlord or agent? Who was the cash paid to?

    Yes she and I went through it together and there was nothing missing, the agent is the one who signed it for her cash paid to them as well.


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    #27
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Sounds like she doesn't have any arrears.

    I would tell the agent they can open a case with the prtb, if they won't deal with the issue. Keep paying rent. Perhaps start a dispute with the prtb herself.

    I suspect the landlord is trying to end the tenancy and this won't be the end of it.


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    #28
    rightmove
    Registered Users Posts: 995 ✭✭✭rightmove


    ninjarambohd wrote: »
    Yes she has her lease from when she moved in.

    Did she have a direct debit setup . If not I suspect rent slippage on the date. If so advice should be to pay her rent and set up a direct debit. ??


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    #29
    Browney7
    Registered Users Posts: 3,100 ✭✭✭Browney7


    ninjarambohd wrote: »
    I just asked her. She says she was given a 14 day notice. She tried to get in contact with the ll but didn't have his number or anything and the agency wouldn't do much to help. The only thing the ll gave was bank statements from 2016 then a few months later a bank statement from 2012 saying she owes him since then. She is in absolute shock. She was telling me the other day if I was in arrears since then why not let me know then as opposed to now nearly 6 years later.

    If she's paying by cash are those bank statements not wholly irrelevant? LL could have done anything with the money between receipt and lodgement. If the rent book is signed each month or week/fortnight it appears like it's case closed. Or do these bank statements reflect the payment received by the LL from the agent that your friend paid the money to? If the agent didn't forward all payments it's not your friends problem.

    Only thing left I can think of is the rent is specified weekly but paid monthly perhaps and some slippage crept in?

    As has been said, LL appears to be using all means (whether fair or foul) to remove your friend or just bad record keeping causing confusion.


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    #30
    Browney7
    Registered Users Posts: 3,100 ✭✭✭Browney7


    rightmove wrote: »
    Did she have a direct debit setup . If not I suspect rent slippage on the date. If so advice should be to pay her rent and set up a direct debit. ??

    I'd bet a hefty sum of money that cash is the specified payment method accepted by LL and they wouldn't like a DD.


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    #31
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,455 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    ninjarambohd wrote: »
    Yes she and I went through it together and there was nothing missing, the agent is the one who signed it for her cash paid to them as well.
    Sounds pretty concrete so. This is a problem between the agent and landlord, and a careless landlord, especially if they're sending you bank statements when you haven't been supposed to send anything to their bank account.


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