Activism versus Discussion thread

tritium

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Another example of the kind of work men's groups could be doing. Fair play to Eva Women's Aid. Getting their message out.

Its only a pity there isn't an equally powerful men's domestic violence aid group.

I don’t think anyone would dream of criticizing Eva women’s aid for taking an opportunity to get their message out, as you say, fair play I’m sure they jumped at the chance to contribute to a national newspaper.

I would question however the cop on and / or intent of that national newspaper to use a women’s support domestic violence piece in the middle of a story that centers on a female perpetrator and male victim of intimate partner violence

It’s especially odd to understand, where there are far more established and vocal services for male victims in the UK , for example the mankind initiative

http://www.mankind.org.uk

These are a fantastic bunch actually, last year they held their fifth national conference highlighting this issue and will hold another in November this year. Not bad for a group highlighting an issue that was actively denied by many people until relatively recently.

I’d actually encourage you to peruse their website el_D, I think you might be very presently surprised at the level of activity on there

El_Duderino 09

tritium wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Another example of the kind of work men's groups could be doing. Fair play to Eva Women's Aid. Getting their message out.

Its only a pity there isn't an equally powerful men's domestic violence aid group.

I don’t think anyone would dream of criticizing Eva women’s aid for taking an opportunity to get their message out, as you say, fair play I’m sure they jumped at the chance to contribute to a national newspaper.

I would question however the cop on and / or intent of that national newspaper to use a women’s support domestic violence piece in the middle of a story that centers on a female perpetrator and male victim of intimate partner violence

It’s especially odd to understand, where there are far more established and vocal services for male victims in the UK , for example the mankind initiative

http://www.mankind.org.uk

These are a fantastic bunch actually, last year they held their fifth national conference highlighting this issue and will hold another in November this year. Not bad for a group highlighting an issue that was actively denied by many people until relatively recently.

I’d actually encourage you to peruse their website el_D, I think you might be very presently surprised at the level of activity on there

Yeah fair play, I attended a fund raiser for mankind last year. They're doing exactly the kind of thing I love to see more of and in Ireland.

El_Duderino 09

erudec wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

On any given example, how easy is it to find a feminist to talk about it? How easy is it to find a men’s rights advocate to talk about it?

Paddy Jackson ‘assumed consent’ which stood up in court. But it left 5 people in a horrible situation for years after. Educating boys and girls about the law and about what happens in practice and how to have conversations about consent is a really strong way to address the issue.

How easy would it be to find a feminists to shape a discussion about consent? How easy would it be to find a men’s rights advocate to shape a discussion about consent?

Who gets to decide what "education" to give?

This is exactly how the course content is created and revised. As I said, it’s shaped by interested and vocal stakeholders.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/0612/969888-ifpa_rse/

I still haven’t heard what exactly a men’s interest group would want to include in the course, but they’ll have to make do with the existent and vocal groups who are taking part in the evidence session.

It’s great that the course is being modernised. It’s out of date and doesn’t keep up with the reality of young people on the ground.

It doesn’t cover the nuances of important issues like the nature of consent and it completely ignores the most common reason people have sex which is for intimacy and pleasure. It doesn’t focus on sexual techniques or fetishes - porn teaches young people about that.

Great development and fair play to all the vocal groups who are in a position to get their message included in the course creation process.

El_Duderino 09

iptba wrote: »

Government apologises for hurt and stigma inflicted on gay men



The Government has apologised to thousands of gay men criminalised by the State for their sexuality and for the hurt and stigma inflicted on them and their families.

Minister for Justice Charlie Flanagan offered a State apology to the men for the effect of laws denying them the right to live without fear and for the failure of tolerance in Irish society.

Taoiseach Leo Varadkar admitted the apology would not erase the wrong that was done but said society had learned from the men’s suffering.

Continues at:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/government-apologises-for-hurt-and-stigma-inflicted-on-gay-men-1.3536709

That was great news for men and men’s rights. An acknowledgment of an injustice committed against men and an apology from the state ,through the Taoiseach.

It shows how things can be changed if you only wish hard enough (and campaign and lobby relentlessly and in spite of opposition).

Fair play to all the men and women who campaigned over the decades to change the laws and change how society viewed sexuality and sexual orientation.

professore

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Lol. You do t think ‘brain optional’ is a pejorative? Okey dokey

Sheep, as you call them, The sheep march, they campaign, they provide the bulk of the movement, the momentum. They’re the ones who carry the ball over the line. You acknowledge all that and still need to oppose my point that campaigning etc. achieves change.

All you need is a few people with their sh1t together and a load of sheep, to use your phrase, and you can achieve change. But Peterson says you need to set your house in perfect order before you criticise the world. So now you need to pretend the way to achieve societal change is tidy your room etc. first.

Look, the feminists, dreadful creatures that they are, campaign and achieve all sorts of change. The men are t doing likewise and don’t achieve anything like the same social change.

I think you’ve come around to the idea that a movement only needs key people with their sh1t together and the bulk can be as bad as one can describe the feminists to be. They get things done. Maybe all the men who are in opposition to the idea that campaigning is the main thing that causes change, have tidy, beautiful rooms. Maybe they’re still beavering away, setting their own house in perfect order before they criticise the world. But I doubt it.

I think they’re just being lazy. Sitting around criticising the fact that there aren’t men’s shelters for domestic violence, criticising the medical screening for female diseases and lack of analogous men’s services, criticising the family court system, criticising the dreaded feminists who haven’t even got their own house in order but they’re causing societal change.

The sooner Peterson writes a campaigning manual the better.

Men are either too busy working and feeding their families so their wives and daughters can go marching with their iPhone Xs or sitting in basements smoking weed and masturbating. A good recession and mass unemployment and THEN you will see what men can do as a group. Generally it isn't pretty.

El_Duderino 09

professore wrote: »

Men are either too busy working and feeding their families so their wives and daughters can go marching with their iPhone Xs or sitting in basements smoking weed and masturbating. A good recession and mass unemployment and THEN you will see what men can do as a group. Generally it isn't pretty.

Joking or serious?

That sounds a lot like something one might read in a news report. ‘Before he turned the gun on himself he posted a message on social media saying...’

silverharp

There are limits to getting things done, once there is a court system in place and a non suicidal government men can't exactly be targeted,many voters are mothers and wives and will vote accordingly.
If for exampke certain professions become toxic for men say teaching, government jobs or certain large private sector companies, you can bitch and moan which serves a purpose but mostly better to move to new pastures rather than waiting for the system to fix your life.

El_Duderino 09

silverharp wrote: »

There are limits to getting things done, once there is a court system in place and a non suicidal government men can't exactly be targeted,many voters are mothers and wives and will vote accordingly.
If for exampke certain professions become toxic for men say teaching, government jobs or certain large private sector companies, you can bitch and moan which serves a purpose but mostly better to move to new pastures rather than waiting for the system to fix your life.

I've no idea what you're saying here. Suicidal government and bitch and moan.

Is the government now suicidal?

Is bitching and moaning activism in the paragraph above? Or does it mean complaining without activating?

silverharp

It was in the context of the previous comment of men having better things to do. Once there is a decent court system and a reasonable government ,then better just highlight and avoid the landmines.

El_Duderino 09

silverharp wrote: »

It was in the context of the previous comment of men having better things to do. Once there is a decent court system and a reasonable government ,then better just highlight and avoid the landmines.

Does that suggest feminism gets so much done because women don't have better things to do?

So would you encourage activism or not?

silverharp

Women have things to do, feminists have spare time as they normally don't have families or busy jobs

If you have skin in the game activism can make sense, if its just a hobby meh

El_Duderino 09

silverharp wrote: »

Women have things to do, feminists have spare time as they normally don't have families or busy jobs

If you have skin in the game activism can make sense, if its just a hobby meh

Ah, there are lots of men without busy jobs too. Considering there are lots more single female parents than Male.

I’m still not sure what point you’re making.

Are you saying why you personally wouldn’t be active, or are you trying to explain the reason why feminists are much better at campaign in than men’s rights activists?

As I asked above, would you encourage activism or not?

Also, why do you have to have skin in the game to campaign? Should only gay people want the country to have gay rights, marriage etc?

iptba

silverharp wrote: »

Women have things to do, feminists have spare time as they normally don't have families or busy jobs

If you have skin in the game activism can make sense, if its just a hobby meh

I am no expert on the demographics of feminists but know of one couple where he worked full-time all his life, for a lot of it running his own business. She stopped working outside home when had two kids. Then went on to study women’s studies and was on the national executive/similar of National Women’s Council for a number of years.

Most men would still be expected to work full-time.

professore

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ah, there are lots of men without busy jobs too. Considering there are lots more single female parents than Male.

I’m still not sure what point you’re making.

Are you saying why you personally wouldn’t be active, or are you trying to explain the reason why feminists are much better at campaign in than men’s rights activists?

As I asked above, would you encourage activism or not?

Also, why do you have to have skin in the game to campaign? Should only gay people want the country to have gay rights, marriage etc?

There aren't whole college departments dedicated to training men's rights activists.

professore

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ah, there are lots of men without busy jobs too. Considering there are lots more single female parents than Male.

I’m still not sure what point you’re making.

Are you saying why you personally wouldn’t be active, or are you trying to explain the reason why feminists are much better at campaign in than men’s rights activists?

As I asked above, would you encourage activism or not?

Also, why do you have to have skin in the game to campaign? Should only gay people want the country to have gay rights, marriage etc?

There aren't whole college departments dedicated to training men's rights activists.

professore

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ah, there are lots of men without busy jobs too. Considering there are lots more single female parents than Male.

I’m still not sure what point you’re making.

Are you saying why you personally wouldn’t be active, or are you trying to explain the reason why feminists are much better at campaign in than men’s rights activists?

As I asked above, would you encourage activism or not?

Also, why do you have to have skin in the game to campaign? Should only gay people want the country to have gay rights, marriage etc?

My daughter was in a sports club. The lessons etc were expensive. They started organising classes midweek during the day. She couldn't go anymore. The ones that could go were wives of working men with kids in school that had lots of time and money. And nannies. There is no equivalent male demographic.

silverharp

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ah, there are lots of men without busy jobs too. Considering there are lots more single female parents than Male.

I’m still not sure what point you’re making.

Are you saying why you personally wouldn’t be active, or are you trying to explain the reason why feminists are much better at campaign in than men’s rights activists?

As I asked above, would you encourage activism or not?

Also, why do you have to have skin in the game to campaign? Should only gay people want the country to have gay rights, marriage etc?

That would be their male feminist allies then. My problem with feminist activists is that I believe their activism is a substitute for getting on with their lives. Being born with autism is a problem, being born female isn't. Having a scattergun of poorly defined and contradictory goals is going to lead to continual frustration as reality is unlikely to bend in your direction.
There was an amusing interview with portillo and dome male feminist who wanted men to step aside and have a matriarchy. That's less likely than the UK surrendering to Isis. The guy in question should certainly refocus his time unless he has managed to monitise his views somehow.

El_Duderino 09

professore wrote: »

There aren't whole college departments dedicated to training men's rights activists.

Yeah i suppose that must be one of the reasons feminists are so much more successful at campaigning.

iptba

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah i suppose that must be one of the reasons feminists are so much more successful at campaigning.

I remember around 2011 the Wikipedia page for Masculism/Men’s Rights/something similar was informative with lots of issues highlighted. However it was weakened a lot over the years with lots of edits as it supposedly didn’t have enough academic references. Though it was also suggested Wikipedia could be biased as they didn’t want to be seen as a male-dominated entity.

The imbalance in gender studies means there are a lot more academic papers that can be cited by feminists than those interested in men’s rights. And a lot more people knowledgeable about the published literature.

El_Duderino 09

iptba wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah i suppose that must be one of the reasons feminists are so much more successful at campaigning.

I remember around 2011 the Wikipedia page for Masculism/Men’s Rights/something similar was informative with lots of issues highlighted. However it was weakened a lot over the years with lots of edits as it supposedly didn’t have enough academic references. Though it was also suggested Wikipedia could be biased as they didn’t want to be seen as a male-dominated entity.

The imbalance in gender studies means there are a lot more academic papers that can be cited by feminists than those interested in men’s rights. And a lot more people knowledgeable about the published literature.

And what’s the solution to that?

Or more importantly, what does the men’s rights movement do to make sure its issues are advanced?