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All things relating to Jordan Peterson
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Oh sure, I think there must be some kind of cognitive dissonance going on with Peterson, but the fact he's religious and has made a few curious claims is certainly no basis for completely disowning him. You could pick faults with anyone if you tried hard enough, but the sensible thing to do is to read and listen to everything with objectivity. Someone mentioned Christopher Hitchens earlier. He supported the Iraq War, right? That was not a popular position to take, but I'm guessing it didn't diminish his reputation as an intellectual. There is probably a ''fly in the ointment'' with everyone - it shouldn't be a big deal.
Supporting the Iraq War and claiming that to be a "real atheist" you must be a murderer are two very different levels of "faults" in my mind. Only one of those positions is being pushed by legit nutters. They are totally incomparable and to try and compare them as if they are equally as ridiculous (bear in mind in Hitchens case I'm talking about the thoughts on the position during his lifetime not after) is in itself disingenuous.
If you want to read or listen to something objectively then there are plenty of faults to be found with Peterson. Which I will touch on later but quotes like "If you don't say what you think then you kill your unborn self" spring to mind as to why I haven't ever really seen him as some amazing genius of our time not to mention his ideas on "truth" are ludicrous.0 -
Well said ...Oh sure, I think there must be some kind of cognitive dissonance going on with Peterson, but the fact he's religious and has made a few curious claims is certainly no basis for completely disowning him. You could pick faults with anyone if you tried hard enough, but the sensible thing to do is to read and listen to everything with objectivity. Someone mentioned Christopher Hitchens earlier. He supported the Iraq War, right? That was not a popular position to take, but I'm guessing it didn't diminish his reputation as an intellectual. There is probably a ''fly in the ointment'' with everyone - it shouldn't be a big deal.
Perfection is the enemy of good.0 -
Except for the fact that Peterson parrots classic Christian apologetics while his cult following in a lot of cases atheist or agnostic themselves seem to ignore or actually try to reconcile his beliefs with their own views, for fear of realising Peterson isn't the perfect person they seem to think he is.
Anyone who starts trying to explain that a "genuine" atheist would be a murderer isn't preaching values of those who criticise the Catholic Church I'm sorry to tell you. I'd also add that such claims you'd normally hear from the likes of Ray Comfort definitely should detract from the "genius" label you seem to want to apply to him.
Oh, I forgot the other thing, his whole you can't quit smoking "without a mythical experience" and proceeded to claim this was some sort of scientific fact backed by evidence when it really sounds like pseudoscientific bull**** which Dillahunty then proceeds to call out.
Oh sure, I agree with you to an extent: I get exasperated when Peterson dives into the religious. It becomes a tiresome hobby horse for him. He does have odd and plain wrong ideas about certain things, only the blindest of cultists would argue otherwise.
However, I believe in religious tolerance (where said religion does not impinge on the well being and liberty of others) so I won’t dismiss a person in the grounds of his beliefs. There are hundreds of hours of Peterson’s thoughts available online, within that mammoth corpus there are bound to be several dubious quotes- as there would be from any human being were their musings subject to such documenting and scrutiny.
I’m not putting the three men in the same league but should Isaac Newton’s scientific advances be ignored because the man had various religious and occultist beliefs that would make Peterson’s look pedestrian? Does Oscar Wilde’s art lose all merit because the man was, by modern legal standards, a pedophile?
I think it’s better to look the general body and core of the doctor’s teachings and make a judgement either way than seize upon a wild tangent and proclaim him a worthless nut: more witchunter thinking.
His religious views do chime with me even as a non-religious person a tad in that I’d agree that Christianity is one of the foundational blocks of the unmatched success of Western civilization and that the Bible is an important document and, sections thereof at least, are a font for useful wisdom that can be applied in modern life by people of any faith and none.
As to the question of his genius, seeing him in full flow I’m inclined to believe he is- my mind is subject to change on that as he and I progress. It’s subjective ultimately.
As I said, it’s the context that makes Peterson, not his brilliance. He’s an articulate, popular point of resistance against ideologies that are dangerous and dangerously dominant. In a sane world, he would be a quirky self help guru. In this world, he is one of the most important thinkers of the day.0 -
If you want to read or listen to something objectively then there are plenty of faults to be found with Peterson. Which I will touch on later but quotes like "If you don't say what you think then you kill your unborn self" spring to mind as to why I haven't ever really seen him as some amazing genius of our time not to mention his ideas on "truth" are ludicrous.
This is a metaphor? You kill the person you could be by lying. What's wrong with that? It's self evidently true.0 -
The modern Left would do well to look at the Church in Ireland, it tried the same attitude and people eventually stopped listening.Looking at their voter base turning away from them all over Europe, it is easy to see history repeat itself.
This. The parallels are astonishing. I think it's that section of society who want to be SEEN to be virtuous and good that previously gravitated to the Church and preached to the rest of us how sinful we were need a new home when being associated with the Church is seen as toxic.
Calling out people on real or imagined slights, the in group and out group identification, the one upmanship in piety, similar to virtue signalling, it's all the same. Even the chanting of simplistic slogans is reminiscent of the mindless singing of hymns and repeating prayers. The paedophilia hasn't got there yet, but give it time, they already are fine with giving young children who think they are trans hormones, it will be seen as just another sexual orientation.
A mate of mine said he went to a funeral recently and the whole thing was exactly the same as it was 40 years ago with the same old brainwashing messages. I think some people need this in their lives so as not to have to actually think for themselves.
Peterson's religious bent is the one area I have big problems with.1 -
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professore wrote: »This. The parallels are astonishing. I think it's that section of society who want to be SEEN to be virtuous and good that previously gravitated to the Church and preached to the rest of us how sinful we were need a new home when being associated with the Church is seen as toxic.
Calling out people on real or imagined slights, the in group and out group identification, the one upmanship in piety, similar to virtue signalling, it's all the same. Even the chanting of simplistic slogans is reminiscent of the mindless singing of hymns and repeating prayers. The paedophilia hasn't got there yet, but give it time, they already are fine with giving young children who think they are trans hormones, it will be seen as just another sexual orientation.
A mate of mine said he went to a funeral recently and the whole thing was exactly the same as it was 40 years ago with the same old brainwashing messages. I think some people need this in their lives so as not to have to actually think for themselves.
Peterson's religious bent is the one area I have big problems with.
The Middle Class took over the Church, same can be said of the Left today, which is often a cold house for Working Class people or those who have not taken the soup fully, to keep the historical references going.
I found myself reading a Guardian article recently and it was giving out about people and their thought crimes, I realized I was humming. "It's a sin" by the Pet Shop Boys.
All beliefs systems, political, religious, social etc when they became obsessed with their analysis, rules, doctrine become a religion.
God has very little to do with religion. The same human foibles that lead to the Revolution eventually shooting most of those who fought in it, are in the Church, are in your local club or society.1 -
I’m interested as to how you or your friend expect a catholic funeral NOT to be the same as it ever was.professore wrote: »This. The parallels are astonishing. I think it's that section of society who want to be SEEN to be virtuous and good that previously gravitated to the Church and preached to the rest of us how sinful we were need a new home when being associated with the Church is seen as toxic.
Calling out people on real or imagined slights, the in group and out group identification, the one upmanship in piety, similar to virtue signalling, it's all the same. Even the chanting of simplistic slogans is reminiscent of the mindless singing of hymns and repeating prayers. The paedophilia hasn't got there yet, but give it time, they already are fine with giving young children who think they are trans hormones, it will be seen as just another sexual orientation.
A mate of mine said he went to a funeral recently and the whole thing was exactly the same as it was 40 years ago with the same old brainwashing messages. I think some people need this in their lives so as not to have to actually think for themselves.
Peterson's religious bent is the one area I have big problems with.
A catholic funeral involves a funeral mass.
A mass is a mass.
Then there are prayers as the coffin leaves the church and at the graveside.
In what way should this be changed in your opinion, and why?0 -
professore wrote: »Peterson's religious bent is the one area I have big problems with.
on the one hand you can park it, its not relevant to his other ideas. I cant say I understand his position on religion but I did note some commentators in some of his interview comment sections describing themselves as something like religious/christian atheists after listening to him :pac:. You could have a slightly new age take on it or a deist take perhaps.A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer
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As mentioned here already, church hasn’t changed much over the last centuries. Mass is mass, what changed is the influence of church has diminished mainly because people can read and even before the scandals church was in decline. When you have enough time on your hand to read and think for yourself, church becomes more and more obsolete. And this causes a lot of issues, where myself and Peterson agree. The century old order has been abolished and nothing equally or better is in place.The Middle Class took over the Church, same can be said of the Left today, which is often a cold house for Working Class people or those who have not taken the soup fully, to keep the historical references going.
I found myself reading a Guardian article recently and it was giving out about people and their thought crimes, I realized I was humming. "It's a sin" by the Pet Shop Boys.
All beliefs systems, political, religious, social etc when they became obsessed with their analysis, rules, doctrine become a religion.
God has very little to do with religion. The same human foibles that lead to the Revolution eventually shooting most of those who fought in it, are in the Church, are in your local club or society.
But there is still a decent size crowd going to church every Sunday, so what stops his followers to go to church on a regular base and follow the church doctrine that hasn’t changed in centuries? You work hard, you obey authorities and when you are dead you get rewarded in heaven for your deeds on earth. It’s not hard.
God and church were always disconnected as e.g. Christians had no issues killing people in the name of god. God was always used to manipulate the masses. As said this foundation has eroded. And in the past, one of the most dangerous factors were unemployed angry young men that can easily manipulated by the upper class for their needs. See Peterson.
I would challenge that middle class has taken over church, Irish society simply has evolved more people from the lower class to the middle class in the last centuries. Now this middle class is diminishing as the working world changes and a lot of JPs followers are finding themselves in the now lower class, so a class below their parents. What is hard to swallow as it is expected from this generation to be better than the last generation.0 -
professore wrote: »This. The parallels are astonishing. I think it's that section of society who want to be SEEN to be virtuous and good that previously gravitated to the Church and preached to the rest of us how sinful we were need a new home when being associated with the Church is seen as toxic.
Calling out people on real or imagined slights, the in group and out group identification, the one upmanship in piety, similar to virtue signalling, it's all the same. Even the chanting of simplistic slogans is reminiscent of the mindless singing of hymns and repeating prayers. The paedophilia hasn't got there yet, but give it time, they already are fine with giving young children who think they are trans hormones, it will be seen as just another sexual orientation.
A mate of mine said he went to a funeral recently and the whole thing was exactly the same as it was 40 years ago with the same old brainwashing messages. I think some people need this in their lives so as not to have to actually think for themselves.
Peterson's religious bent is the one area I have big problems with.
Yeah this. I've a friend who married a mad atheist bird, slagged me off every time I went to church.
Got married in our local parish church because the backdrop looked "pastoral" in the pics.
There are religious folk. Leave us be to have our activities.
You don't want to take part ? I understand Dale Winton had a humanist funeral and Carol Smylie is now a humanist minister - perhaps that is your way to go ?0 -
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professore wrote: »This. The parallels are astonishing. I think it's that section of society who want to be SEEN to be virtuous and good that previously gravitated to the Church and preached to the rest of us how sinful we were need a new home when being associated with the Church is seen as toxic.
Calling out people on real or imagined slights, the in group and out group identification, the one upmanship in piety, similar to virtue signalling, it's all the same. Even the chanting of simplistic slogans is reminiscent of the mindless singing of hymns and repeating prayers. The paedophilia hasn't got there yet, but give it time, they already are fine with giving young children who think they are trans hormones, it will be seen as just another sexual orientation.
A mate of mine said he went to a funeral recently and the whole thing was exactly the same as it was 40 years ago with the same old brainwashing messages. I think some people need this in their lives so as not to have to actually think for themselves.
Peterson's religious bent is the one area I have big problems with.
I think that is a very simplistic narrative - and of course the obligatory reference to pedophiles has to be added in. Many people - including myself- enjoy the communal aspect of mass and religion in general. In a society which is becoming increasingly atomized, in which people are increasingly living lonely lives, the Church provides people with an outlet, a place were they can mix with others and feel a part of something bigger. It's nothing to do with feeling virtuous, and there's no mass brainwashing going on.0 -
DickSwiveller Returns wrote: »I think that is a very simplistic narrative - and of course the obligatory reference to pedophiles has to be added in. Many people - including myself- enjoy the communal aspect of mass and religion in general. In a society which is becoming increasingly atomized, in which people are increasingly living lonely lives, the Church provides people with an outlet, a place were they can mix with others and feel a part of something bigger. It's nothing to do with feeling virtuous, and there's no mass brainwashing going on.
+1
Well put.0 -
PlaneSpeeking wrote: »Yeah this. I've a friend who married a mad atheist bird, slagged me off every time I went to church.
Got married in our local parish church because the backdrop looked "pastoral" in the pics.
There are religious folk. Leave us be to have our activities.
You don't want to take part ? I understand Dale Winton had a humanist funeral and Carol Smylie is now a humanist minister - perhaps that is your way to go ?
Can't stand these bores. I think the famous linguist Noam Chomsky (and atheist) summed these people up well:
""I'm not impressed with it, frankly. And I don't think they address the concerns, feelings and commitments of seriously religious people. Yes, they do address the concerns of people who think the world was created ten thousand years ago, but they're not going to listen to these arguments -- not in the arrogant form in which they are presented. Discourse is possible. And if people want to believe in, say, a future life, or a divine figure, that's their right. What does bother me much more is, for example, reading publications from the Hoover Institute at Stanford University which describe Ronald Reagan, their divinity, as a 'colossus' striding over the country whose spirit looks over us like a loving ghost." - Noam Chomsky0 -
DickSwiveller Returns wrote: »Can't stand these bores. I think the famous linguist Noam Chomsky (and atheist) summed these people up well:
""I'm not impressed with it, frankly. And I don't think they address the concerns, feelings and commitments of seriously religious people. Yes, they do address the concerns of people who think the world was created ten thousand years ago, but they're not going to listen to these arguments -- not in the arrogant form in which they are presented. Discourse is possible. And if people want to believe in, say, a future life, or a divine figure, that's their right. What does bother me much more is, for example, reading publications from the Hoover Institute at Stanford University which describe Ronald Reagan, their divinity, as a 'colossus' striding over the country whose spirit looks over us like a loving ghost." - Noam Chomsky
Bloody good quote there!0 -
DickSwiveller Returns wrote: »I think that is a very simplistic narrative - and of course the obligatory reference to pedophiles has to be added in. Many people - including myself- enjoy the communal aspect of mass and religion in general. In a society which is becoming increasingly atomized, in which people are increasingly living lonely lives, the Church provides people with an outlet, a place were they can mix with others and feel a part of something bigger. It's nothing to do with feeling virtuous, and there's no mass brainwashing going on.
It's clearly not the whole narrative - I agree with the positives you outline here. However you have to acknowledge there are also the types I outline in the church - to this day. I consider myself an agnostic in that I doubt there is a man in the sky but it's impossible to prove so I am not going to be so arrogant as to assume he doesn't exist.0 -
professore wrote: »It's clearly not the whole narrative - I agree with the positives you outline here. However you have to acknowledge there are also the types I outline in the church - to this day. I consider myself an agnostic in that I doubt there is a man in the sky but it's impossible to prove so I am not going to be so arrogant as to assume he doesn't exist.
Of course there are. And I find them a turn off as well. But these kinds of people are not limited to organised religion. You get fanatics everywhere. But the majority of people I know who help out in my local church are decent, kind people who clearly get a great deal of comfort from the church. I'm not going to sneer at them and call them brainwashed.0 -
I've been having a flick through some old debates and discussions between atheists and religious apologists, and one interesting character who I've noticed is someone called Alister McGrath (he's apparently from Belfast but it sounds as though he's had a lot of elocution lessons). But anyway, he comes across as extremely intelligent and civilised and appears to have a lot of academic qualifications. I suppose he's similar to Jordan in that the term cognitive dissonance jumps out at you once again.0
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I've been having a flick through some old debates and discussions between atheists and religious apologists, and one interesting character who I've noticed is someone called Alister McGrath (he's apparently from Belfast but it sounds as though he's had a lot of elocution lessons). But anyway, he comes across as extremely intelligent and civilised and appears to have a lot of academic qualifications. I suppose he's similar to Jordan in that the term cognitive dissonance jumps out at you once again.
Yes, he's an interesting person. He's an Anglican priest as well. If you're interested, he features in this discussion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRQp2KqiSRw0 -
DickSwiveller Returns wrote: »Of course there are. And I find them a turn off as well. But these kinds of people are not limited to organised religion. You get fanatics everywhere. But the majority of people I know who help out in my local church are decent, kind people who clearly get a great deal of comfort from the church. I'm not going to sneer at them and call them brainwashed.
I didn't mean to imply they were. I've read some books on the Soviet Union recently and those kinds of people were very prevalent there.0 -
splinter65 wrote: »I’m interested as to how you or your friend expect a catholic funeral NOT to be the same as it ever was.
A catholic funeral involves a funeral mass.
A mass is a mass.
Then there are prayers as the coffin leaves the church and at the graveside.
In what way should this be changed in your opinion, and why?
The sermon could be different. It could be more reflective of the world we live in today.
For example the recent abortion referendum - the Catholic churches position on abortion is very clear - abortion is murder, even the morning after pill. Murder is about as bad as it gets on the sin scale. As a side note, I'm not a fan of unrestricted abortion either for humanist reasons.
Something in the region of 80% of people identified as Catholic in the last census. Yet large majorities of people under 65 voted in favour of it. Something doesn't add up. Lots of people didn't even seem to think about it in any deep way. The teachings are not working.
Goes without saying that a funeral might not be the best place for this sermon.0 -
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professore wrote: »The sermon could be different. It could be more reflective of the world we live in today.
For example the recent abortion referendum - the Catholic churches position on abortion is very clear - abortion is murder, even the morning after pill. Murder is about as bad as it gets on the sin scale. As a side note, I'm not a fan of unrestricted abortion either for humanist reasons.
Something in the region of 80% of people identified as Catholic in the last census. Yet large majorities of people under 65 voted in favour of it. Something doesn't add up. Lots of people didn't even seem to think about it in any deep way. The teachings are not working.
Goes without saying that a funeral might not be the best place for this sermon.
What element of the homily did you find didn’t reflect “the world we live in today”?
I wasn’t surprised at all that of the 80% “Catholics” who voted in the referendum at least 60% aren’t Catholics at all.
The “teachings” as you refer to them aren’t wrong.
The Irish church hierarchy are wrong.
They completely failed to come out during the referendum campaign and give clear concise and unambiguous instructions to the “faithful”.
This cowardice in the face of the borderline facist liberal left will be rued in years to come.0 -
A long Irish Times review. Seems fair enough though I haven't read the book yet (I did order a copy this week following all the discussion)Jordan Peterson: ‘What the hell’s wrong with self-help books?’
Alt-right icon or incisive psychologist? The Canadian professor says his priority is to help people take charge of their lives
about 13 hours ago
Laura Kennedy
https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/jordan-peterson-what-the-hell-s-wrong-with-self-help-books-1.3570183The downside comes when people have not paid any attention at all to what I was saying, or used unbelievably selective editing. It’s stressful, but it isn’t obvious that it’s been counterproductive.”
Without the explosion of alternative and social media Peterson could not be the personality he is. The traditional-media monopoly on the delivery of information has gone – and, with it, universally accepted narratives. The unbridled, context-free dissemination of Peterson’s work, and other people’s online responses, explain in part why some people dismiss him as an advocate for hateful right-wing propaganda, of wanting to shove women back into the kitchen, and of being an existential threat to liberal values and progress. It is also why others embrace him as psychologically incisive, philosophically meaningful, and reassuringly unafraid to admit that biology has a role (not necessarily an unmediated one) in everything we do, including difficult topics like gender.His books and lectures show that he is neither the Christ figure his passionate fans (or, rather, a minority of his overly devoted fans) think nor the sexist, transphobic, tyrannical Antichrist his detractors make him out to be.A left-wing activist in his youth, he denies any claims of an anti-left-wing bias, insisting that his issue is with totalitarian far-left ideology.
“It’s not like the left isn’t necessary. People get dispossessed, and someone has to speak for them. So I think when the left is operating properly it speaks for the dispossessed without denying the utility of functional hierarchies, and so there’s none of this ‘the patriarchy is an oppressive entity’ nonsense. It’s like, partly it’s oppressive, but the ‘partly’ is really important . . . Without it, it’s not the voice of the oppressed. It’s the voice of resentment . . .0 -
professore wrote: »The sermon could be different. It could be more reflective of the world we live in today.
For example the recent abortion referendum - the Catholic churches position on abortion is very clear - abortion is murder, even the morning after pill. Murder is about as bad as it gets on the sin scale. As a side note, I'm not a fan of unrestricted abortion either for humanist reasons.
Something in the region of 80% of people identified as Catholic in the last census. Yet large majorities of people under 65 voted in favour of it. Something doesn't add up. Lots of people didn't even seem to think about it in any deep way. The teachings are not working.
Goes without saying that a funeral might not be the best place for this sermon.
But if fundamental moral principles change depending on what is currently fashionable then they are not moral principles - and the Church will die overnight.0 -
splinter65 wrote: »What element of the homily did you find didn’t reflect “the world we live in today”?
I wasn't at the funeral in question, it was a friend of mine so I don't know.
I will say I was at a mass a few years ago and it was a beautiful sunny day and the priest just said "It's not often we get weather like this so I won't keep you too long". One of the most appropriate sermons I ever heard.0 -
DickSwiveller Returns wrote: »But if fundamental moral principles change depending on what is currently fashionable then they are not moral principles - and the Church will die overnight.
I absolutely agree.
I was raised a catholic, went to a convent, and later a Christian brothers school, and was even an altar boy for a few years.
The morality I learned was mostly positive, although the overemphasis on the evils of sex was very bad IMO. My concern is there is no equivalent morality today. For example on the personal issues forum lots of people seem to think if a single person goes after a married one the single person is doing nothing wrong. How they can think that's OK boggles my mind.
I see an increasingly atomised society forming where its all about me me me and the more you can screw other people to benefit yourself the better. Very sad.0 -
Surprisingly evenhanded appraisal of JP from the Irish Times there: a painfully PC organ.
It didn’t sing his praises either, but it provided all I and I think most reasonable observers want to see: a fair interview, an accurate summation of the facts around his rise to prominence and (most refreshingly) no dishonest misrepresentation of his positions.
I nearly cried with joy when the journalist managed to characterise accurately and truthfully the original pronoun controversy which propelled him to fame.
It stands in contrast to the ignorant and/or lying hatchet jobs circulating about JP painting him as some transphobic campaigner.
Never thought I’d find myself in admiration of the IT, but there you are. They did, in this instance, what journalism should be doing: telling the truth. It got at the fundamental kernel that, ultimately, Peterson is merely trying to help people.0 -
professore wrote: »I absolutely agree.
I was raised a catholic, went to a convent, and later a Christian brothers school, and was even an altar boy for a few years.
The morality I learned was mostly positive, although the overemphasis on the evils of sex was very bad IMO. My concern is there is no equivalent morality today. For example on the personal issues forum lots of people seem to think if a single person goes after a married one the single person is doing nothing wrong. How they can think that's OK boggles my mind.
I see an increasingly atomised society forming where its all about me me me and the more you can screw other people to benefit yourself the better. Very sad.
A common value system is one of the key pillars of a high trust society, a functioning society.
A bad plan is always better than no plan.0 -
professore wrote: »I absolutely agree.
I was raised a catholic, went to a convent, and later a Christian brothers school, and was even an altar boy for a few years.
The morality I learned was mostly positive, although the overemphasis on the evils of sex was very bad IMO. My concern is there is no equivalent morality today. For example on the personal issues forum lots of people seem to think if a single person goes after a married one the single person is doing nothing wrong. How they can think that's OK boggles my mind.
I see an increasingly atomised society forming where its all about me me me and the more you can screw other people to benefit yourself the better. Very sad.
agree completely0 -
VICTORIA WHITE: Who decided that career is more important than love and family?
Thursday, August 09, 2018
Holidays are for reading all those books you’ve been discussing with your friends for weeks, but haven’t actually read.
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https://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/columnists/victoria-white/who-decided-that-career-is-more-important-than-love-and-family-473102.html
Also here:
https://www.pressreader.com/ireland/irish-examiner/20180809/2815050470435480 -
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Book arrived today. Looking forward to it.0
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