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Return of Deposit after leaving rental property

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    #32
    Catlady76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 82 ✭✭Catlady76


    Doop wrote: »
    Is the property in a rent pressure zone?

    I think you can go to the RTB however, someone else may be better able to advise, unfortunately what you describe is getting more and more common. RPZ's great in theory but seems to be little backup/enforcement.

    Yes Dublin 24 if we had stayed out rent could only go up by €50 whereas if she rented out out she can get a much higher price we were paying 1300 and its in Kingswood a nice area in Dublin where rental properties are going for up to 2k.
    I was a LL myself for 3 years and I would never have done anything like this, I am getting onto RTB now and also reporting her to the council even though its a private house to have it inspected because its not up to standard at all I had a guy survey it for me before we left because of all the problems and he said it needed to be completely gutted, electrics were bad, plumbing etc..


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    #33
    Browney7
    Registered Users Posts: 3,100 ✭✭✭Browney7


    Catlady76 wrote: »
    Yes Dublin 24 if we had stayed out rent could only go up by €50 whereas if she rented out out she can get a much higher price we were paying 1300 and its in Kingswood a nice area in Dublin where rental properties are going for up to 2k.
    I was a LL myself for 3 years and I would never have done anything like this, I am getting onto RTB now and also reporting her to the council even though its a private house to have it inspected because its not up to standard at all I had a guy survey it for me before we left because of all the problems and he said it needed to be completely gutted, electrics were bad, plumbing etc..

    If you go now you are effectively tipping her off and she can just make you an offer you won't be in a position to accept and she's golden. I'd be giving her a few weeks - call round to the house in a month to pick up any post that might have come and you can then assess whether she's done some wrong. You've no conclusive proof yet. Does she have a forwarding address to contact you at to give you first refusal if she has changed her mind?


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    #34
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,524 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Doop wrote: »
    The_Conductor wrote: »
    If the tenant does not transfer the utilities back to the property owner on the day they move out, along with a final reading, and ensure that they clear the bill- it remains associated with the tenant- and if its not cleared- it most certainly could be cut off.

    Nothing in life is free.

    It takes one phone call to each utility to transfer back to the LL name... if there is a debt.. it follows the tenant, using 'transfer of utilities' as an excuse for a two week or more holding of a deposit is simply unfair, there may be other reasons but this imo is simply not valid, pick up the phone get it done... simples.

    Side note..Why the govt cant get its act together to set up a holding authority/agency is beyond me
    It’s a condition of leases that all utilities are paid. That needs to be verified , from the time of giving the last meter reading to issuing a bill to payment clearing. To the landlord verifying this takes a few days.


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    #35
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,455 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    ted1 wrote: »
    It’s a condition of leases that all utilities are paid. That needs to be verified , from the time of giving the last meter reading to issuing a bill to payment clearing. To the landlord verifying this takes a few days.
    What's the logic in waiting until the tenant's bill has been cleared once the landlord has put the connection in their name? The landlord cannot be chased for it and the process of cutting off the connection cannot start once in the landlord's name.


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    #36
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,524 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    TheChizler wrote: »
    ted1 wrote: »
    It’s a condition of leases that all utilities are paid. That needs to be verified , from the time of giving the last meter reading to issuing a bill to payment clearing. To the landlord verifying this takes a few days.
    What's the logic in waiting until the tenant's bill has been cleared once the landlord has put the connection in their name? The landlord cannot be chased for it and the process of cutting off the connection cannot start once in the landlord's name.
    Because it’s a condition of the lease.


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    #37
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,455 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    ted1 wrote: »
    Because it’s a condition of the lease.
    What's the benefit to the landlord in obstinately following this condition?

    Edit: The condition is that the tenant must pay all bills, that doesn't mean the landlord has to wait to check that they have been paid, just that it's the tenant's responsibility to pay, not the landlord.


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    #38
    Askthe EA
    Registered Users Posts: 724 ✭✭✭Askthe EA


    Doop wrote: »
    It takes one phone call to each utility to transfer back to the LL name... if there is a debt.. it follows the tenant, using 'transfer of utilities' as an excuse for a two week or more holding of a deposit is simply unfair, there may be other reasons but this imo is simply not valid, pick up the phone get it done... simples.

    Side note..Why the govt cant get its act together to set up a holding authority/agency is beyond me

    You're missing the point. If the bills were unpaid, disconnection might already be in train. LL pays deposit back in the morning, ESB disconnect in the afternoon, LL is left with the cost of reconnection. Waiting a few days is prudent.


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    #39
    Catlady76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 82 ✭✭Catlady76


    Browney7 wrote: »
    If you go now you are effectively tipping her off and she can just make you an offer you won't be in a position to accept and she's golden. I'd be giving her a few weeks - call round to the house in a month to pick up any post that might have come and you can then assess whether she's done some wrong. You've no conclusive proof yet. Does she have a forwarding address to contact you at to give you first refusal if she has changed her mind?

    She has a forwarding address, email & contact numbers for us both. We dont want to move back in there as we are currently house hunting but its more the fact that she has been very sneaky about all of this. she has 13 houses and apparently we were in the nicest one which was / is a kip. I just feel that LL should not be able to get away with doing things like this but I get where you are coming from on waiting a few weeks to see who is living there and getting evidence.


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    #40
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,524 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    TheChizler wrote: »
    ted1 wrote: »
    Because it’s a condition of the lease.
    What's the benefit to the landlord in obstinately following this condition?

    Edit: The condition is that the tenant must pay all bills, that doesn't mean the landlord has to wait to check that they have been paid, just that it's the tenant's responsibility to pay, not the landlord.
    Because there is still a risk of being cut off.

    Also unscrupulous tenants may change the utility back into the landlord s name before they move out.

    I just had a €10,700 bill written off by ESB. Quite a stressful month


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    #41
    Browney7
    Registered Users Posts: 3,100 ✭✭✭Browney7


    Catlady76 wrote: »
    She has a forwarding address, email & contact numbers for us both. We dont want to move back in there as we are currently house hunting but its more the fact that she has been very sneaky about all of this. she has 13 houses and apparently we were in the nicest one which was / is a kip. I just feel that LL should not be able to get away with doing things like this but I get where you are coming from on waiting a few weeks to see who is living there and getting evidence.

    So the evidence you have for a case is more clear:
    She won't be able to say she couldn't get in touch with you to reoffer you the place for rent after she decided not to sell.

    You'll need to prove that someone else is now renting the property within a few months of you leaving and that she made no attempt to offer the property back to you.

    I'm not for a moment suggesting you do nothing. She asked you to leave the property under false pretences as she'l appears to be on the make. She's being quite foolish not giving you the deposit back instantly if this is what she is actually up to.


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    #42
    Catlady76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 82 ✭✭Catlady76


    Browney7 wrote: »
    So the evidence you have for a case is more clear:
    She won't be able to say she couldn't get in touch with you to reoffer you the place for rent after she decided not to sell.

    You'll need to prove that someone else is now renting the property within a few months of you leaving and that she made no attempt to offer the property back to you.

    I'm not for a moment suggesting you do nothing. She asked you to leave the property under false pretences as she'l appears to be on the make. She's being quite foolish not giving you the deposit back instantly if this is what she is actually up to.

    Thanks for the good advice we actually received a statutory notice from her solicitor saying the property was being sold and a letter from her also saying that but the neighbors told me she does this all the time to get tenants out who she knows are there a long time and who she cant hike the rent up on.


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    #43
    Browney7
    Registered Users Posts: 3,100 ✭✭✭Browney7


    Catlady76 wrote: »
    Thanks for the good advice we actually received a statutory notice from her solicitor saying the property was being sold and a letter from her also saying that but the neighbors told me she does this all the time to get tenants out who she knows are there a long time and who she cant hike the rent up on.

    You can't rely on what the neighbour is telling you - it's hearsay, they don't know for sure.

    It's LL's pulling strokes like this that will result in the removal of the "sale of property" grounds for termination for genuine honest landlords.


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    #44
    Catlady76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 82 ✭✭Catlady76


    Browney7 wrote: »
    You can't rely on what the neighbour is telling you - it's hearsay, they don't know for sure.

    It's LL's pulling strokes like this that will result in the removal of the "sale of property" grounds for termination for genuine honest landlords.

    I agree like I was selling my apt in 2016 & gave loads of notice to my tenant and showed her proof I was selling it so that all went grand as I was honest but this LL is not one of the good ones for ex. The porch literally fell out on top of my husbands head one day he was going out we called her and asked for it to be fixed it came out from the frame onto the ground she sent some blokes around to just put in a complete new door & frame and left the porch area open with broke tiles that were slippy with the frame area all exposed and never finished the door, I asked her to get it completed and we were told do some DIY and finish it if you want it done of course we never did because I told her it was her responsibility, we both fell twice on the slippy tiles when going out to work they are very dangerous, no services were done & if you got something fixed yourself and then told her she was lose the plot she is very unprofessional to be honest, I dont need the drama of it all but do want my deposit back and also I dont think she should get away with it all.


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    #45
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,455 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    ted1 wrote: »
    Because there is still a risk of being cut off.

    Also unscrupulous tenants may change the utility back into the landlord s name before they move out.

    I just had a €10,700 bill written off by ESB. Quite a stressful month
    I could be wrong, but I don't think an electricity supplier can allow an new account to be created once a disconnection has been ordered?

    Edit: Kinda separate, but what is the legal basis for a landlord paying a debt on behalf of a tenant? What if there was a dispute about the amount of the bill or something similar, but the landlord paid it from the security deposit without the tenant's consent. What would the RTB's take on this be, has it come up before?


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    #46
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,524 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    TheChizler wrote: »
    ted1 wrote: »
    Because there is still a risk of being cut off.

    Also unscrupulous tenants may change the utility back into the landlord s name before they move out.

    I just had a €10,700 bill written off by ESB. Quite a stressful month
    I could be wrong, but I don't think an electricity supplier can allow an new account to be created once a disconnection has been ordered?

    Edit: Kinda separate, but what is the legal basis for a landlord paying a debt on behalf of a tenant? What if there was a dispute about the amount of the bill or something similar, but the landlord paid it from the security deposit without the tenant's consent. What would the RTB's take on this be, has it come up before?
    He can hold the deposit till the terms and conditions of the lease are satisfied. Dues y have to pay it.

    In my case the tenant got a prepay meter removed. And said nothing.


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    #47
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,455 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    ted1 wrote: »
    He can hold the deposit till the terms and conditions of the lease are satisfied. Dues y have to pay it.

    In my case the tenant got a prepay meter removed. And said nothing.
    Yes but do the terms and conditions of the lease state that the landlord can pay 3rd party debts on behalf of the tenant out of the security deposit, or is there a legal provision for this? What's the legal basis for this?

    From the RTB's onestopshop (there may be a more official/legal source):
    Outstanding utility bills and other charges
    If the tenant owes money for utility bills, such as gas or electricity, and the utility bill is in the landlord’s name, the landlord may withhold part or all of the deposit to cover these costs. The tenant should always retain a copy of the bills to ensure that payment is applicable to what is being owed

    (A reconnection fee isn't necessarily a 3rd party debt as it's a cost inflicted on the landlord so they would be fully justified paying that out of the deposit, but the previous tenant's bill for usage certainly is none of the landlord's business IMO)


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    #48
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,524 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    The landlord doesn’t have to pay it with the deposit. They can hold onto the deposit until it’s paid.


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    #49
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,455 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    ted1 wrote: »
    The landlord doesn’t have to pay it with the deposit. They can hold onto the deposit until it’s paid.
    Again, what is the legal basis for this?


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    #50
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,524 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    TheChizler wrote: »
    ted1 wrote: »
    The landlord doesn’t have to pay it with the deposit. They can hold onto the deposit until it’s paid.
    Again, what is the legal basis for this?
    Again ,You are asking a different question. I’m not sure of the legal basis for the landlord paying the bill. I’m not suggesting that there is.

    However There is a contract that state the tenant must pay for utilities. And as such until the terms of the contract are fulfilled the landlord can hold the deposit.


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    #51
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,455 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    ted1 wrote: »
    Again ,You are asking a different question. I’m not sure of the legal basis for the landlord paying the bill. I’m not suggesting that there is.

    However There is a contract that state the tenant must pay for utilities. And as such until the terms of the contract are fulfilled the landlord can hold the deposit.
    I'm asking a question based on a claim you're making, that the landlord can hold onto a deposit until the tenant has settled their debts with third parties. Where does the law allow for this? Or is it something specific inserted into a contract. I've never seen that condition in a lease.


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    #52
    Catlady76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 82 ✭✭Catlady76


    I took a case out with the RTB last week to have my €1000 deposit returned to me from an ex LL, my question is should I still try to communicate with the LL on return of the deposit or just leave it up to the RTB as they seem to take a very long time even to acknowledge your case first off and then to look at it? I questioned them on that and they said it was due to the sheer volume of cases they have but sure what is the point of them if it takes weeks or months to get something sorted.

    Anyway should I still try myself to get the deposit back?


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    #53
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Mod Note

    Threads merged


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    #54
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,238 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Catlady76 wrote: »
    I took a case out with the RTB last week to have my €1000 deposit returned to me from an ex LL, my question is should I still try to communicate with the LL on return of the deposit or just leave it up to the RTB as they seem to take a very long time even to acknowledge your case first off and then to look at it? I questioned them on that and they said it was due to the sheer volume of cases they have but sure what is the point of them if it takes weeks or months to get something sorted.

    Anyway should I still try myself to get the deposit back?

    Further to take weeks and months do not have it sorted out all. Sometimes when you tell the Landlord you have gone to the RTB, the landlord might do a deal or pay up. If the landlord forces you to go through a hearing, it can take a very long time to get the money, if you succeed at the hearing.


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    #55
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,524 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    TheChizler wrote: »
    ted1 wrote: »
    Again ,You are asking a different question. I’m not sure of the legal basis for the landlord paying the bill. I’m not suggesting that there is.

    However There is a contract that state the tenant must pay for utilities. And as such until the terms of the contract are fulfilled the landlord can hold the deposit.
    I'm asking a question based on a claim you're making, that the landlord can hold onto a deposit until the tenant has settled their debts with third parties. Where does the law allow for this? Or is it something specific inserted into a contract. I've never seen that condition in a lease.
    It’s a condition of the contract. The deposit is handed back when the terms of the contract are complete. There no specific law that states it or stops it. But there is contract law that uoholds it


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    #56
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,524 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    TheChizler wrote: »
    ted1 wrote: »
    Again ,You are asking a different question. I’m not sure of the legal basis for the landlord paying the bill. I’m not suggesting that there is.

    However There is a contract that state the tenant must pay for utilities. And as such until the terms of the contract are fulfilled the landlord can hold the deposit.
    I'm asking a question based on a claim you're making, that the landlord can hold onto a deposit until the tenant has settled their debts with third parties. Where does the law allow for this? Or is it something specific inserted into a contract. I've never seen that condition in a lease.
    Here’s a sample lease https://www.let.ie/files/part4.pdf

    See 3.4, until that condition is meet the contract isn’t meet and hence the deposit is retained


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    #57
    Catlady76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 82 ✭✭Catlady76


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    Further to take weeks and months do not have it sorted out all. Sometimes when you tell the Landlord you have gone to the RTB, the landlord might do a deal or pay up. If the landlord forces you to go through a hearing, it can take a very long time to get the money, if you succeed at the hearing.

    After hearing that I went to the RTB & reported the property to the local council even though it was a private rental she sent me a load of abusive text messages telling me to mind my own business it was her house and she will do with it what she wants and that she is not returning deposit due to the damage we did and that we were filthy people but I have evidence proving otherwise as in videos, pictures and a statement from neighbors who have been in our house loads of times so I have nothing to lose going to the RTB so am just going to let them deal with it even if it does take months. She also never registered the tenancy until Oct 16 even though we were there since July 2012 so I have pointed that out to the RTB because she went 4 years without registering it, she has 11 or 12 other houses so I am sure she knows all the tricks.


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    #58
    Browney7
    Registered Users Posts: 3,100 ✭✭✭Browney7


    Catlady76 wrote: »
    After hearing that I went to the RTB & reported the property to the local council even though it was a private rental she sent me a load of abusive text messages telling me to mind my own business it was her house and she will do with it what she wants and that she is not returning deposit due to the damage we did and that we were filthy people but I have evidence proving otherwise as in videos, pictures and a statement from neighbors who have been in our house loads of times so I have nothing to lose going to the RTB so am just going to let them deal with it even if it does take months. She also never registered the tenancy until Oct 16 even though we were there since July 2012 so I have pointed that out to the RTB because she went 4 years without registering it, she has 11 or 12 other houses so I am sure she knows all the tricks.

    Is she a professional idiot or a gifted amateur? Why she'd put stuff like that in writing is beyond me. Best of luck but I suspect even if you are successful you'll be waiting a while for repayment.

    I'd have kept my powder dry on the re-letting aspect if I was you and focussed on deposit for now. It's rogue LLs like her that fuels more stringent regulations.


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    #59
    Catlady76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 82 ✭✭Catlady76


    Browney7 wrote: »
    Is she a professional idiot or a gifted amateur? Why she'd put stuff like that in writing is beyond me. Best of luck but I suspect even if you are successful you'll be waiting a while for repayment.

    I'd have kept my powder dry on the re-letting aspect if I was you and focussed on deposit for now. It's rogue LLs like her that fuels more stringent regulations.

    She is unbelievable sometimes I think she cant get any worse and then she does I am so glad to be out of her house to be honest now, even all the neighbors on the road have choice words to describe what they think of her they often asked her to tidy up the house as it was in bits and she would tell them to mind their own business, she tried doing one of them out of money over a wall being built like I dont see the point why you need to go on like that. I have a file made now for the RTB I could be waiting ages and for payment too but I feel that she needs to be taught a lesson. I was a LL myself for a few years and I know that you need to have certain standards it makes for a better relationship all round.


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