Enterprise Cross-Border Rail Strategic Development Plan

Jamie2k9

http://www.irishrail.ie/cross-border-rail-development-plan

Translink and Iarnród Éireann today launched an ambitious new strategic development plan for the Cross-border Enterprise Rail Service between Belfast and Dublin. Called ‘Better Connecting Dublin and Belfast’

Note they have cleverly left out the cost, £44 million pounds for new trains, £190 million to improve journey by 15 minutes.

Nobody in either company accountable for the deliberate slowing down of trains through lack of co-operation and heavily on IEs part deliberate scheduling of a DART just before departure over the last few years. At a bare minimum 10 minutes could be cut immediately if there was any vision but as it doesn't include a cheque they have no interest.

Lord Glentoran

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

http://www.irishrail.ie/cross-border-rail-development-plan


Note they have cleverly left out the cost, £44 million pounds for new trains, £190 million to improve journey by 15 minutes.

Nobody in either company accountable for the deliberate slowing down of trains through lack of co-operation and heavily on IEs part deliberate scheduling of a DART just before departure over the last few years. At a bare minimum 10 minutes could be cut immediately if there was any vision but as it doesn't include a cheque they have no interest.

Aren't there still Permanent Way issues south of Portadown?

Isambard

isn't that route part of the EU funded plan?

Losty Dublin

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

http://www.irishrail.ie/cross-border-rail-development-plan


Note they have cleverly left out the cost, £44 million pounds for new trains, £190 million to improve journey by 15 minutes.

Nobody in either company accountable for the deliberate slowing down of trains through lack of co-operation and heavily on IEs part deliberate scheduling of a DART just before departure over the last few years. At a bare minimum 10 minutes could be cut immediately if there was any vision but as it doesn't include a cheque they have no interest.

The vast majority of issues that delay the Enterprise exist in Northern Ireland, as LG notes. Stormont and NIR need to address things at their end if they want sub 2 hour running and hourly trains.

Jamie2k9

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The vast majority of issues that delay the Enterprise exist in Northern Ireland, as LG notes. Stormont and NIR need to address things at their end if they want sub 2 hour running and hourly trains.

I do agree infrastructure is a way bigger issue in NI and considering NIR benefit more than IE in terms of numbers/revenue they really should have an better infrastructure. The Irish Goverment should not fund 50% of the infrastructure. The slower trains over the last few years have almost been entirely down to IE.

The DD coaches are limited to 90mph, is that design spec or a limit NIR put on them given their network is 90mph max.

Line north of Malahide to border is capable of 90, 100 should be possible at minimal cost. Could cut 3-5 minutes.

The full installation of all platforms at Clongriffin and Mosney as well as better scheduling and at times if there is a 8 or 11 minute gap between a DART so be it because the block 10 minute and no divergence from it just deteriorates the service levels for everybody.

There is a 7 minute difference between weekdays and Sundays, up/down time difference and lack of standardized departures add 5 minutes to ex Belfast services (xx.35 = 2h10m, xx.05 = 2h15m.

isn't that route part of the EU funded plan?

Nope and they will unlikely fund it anyway even if they have hinted otherwise.

GM228

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The DD coaches are limited to 90mph, is that design spec or a limit NIR put on them given their network is 90mph max.

That's design spec, but they could be upgraded to 105MPH with no work required.

When the Enterprise was delivered the line apeed was 75MPH and upgraded to 90MPH for them, had they been spec'd for 100MPH then the line would have been upgraded to 100MPH most likely - lack of foresight perhaps?

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Nope and they will unlikely fund it anyway even if they have hinted otherwise.

Never say never, there are behind the scenes negotiations between the Governments, IE/NIR and the EU dealing with issues of Brexit, cross-border links and separately issues surrounding Rosslare Europort.

Any upgrade money could be a sweetener for any "border" issue.

Losty Dublin

GM228 wrote: »

That's design spec, but they could be upgraded to 105MPH with no work required.

When the Enterprise was delivered the line apeed was 75MPH and upgraded to 90MPH for them, had they been spec'd for 100MPH then the line would have been upgraded to 100MPH most likely - lack of foresight perhaps?

The track itself can sustain 100MPH but the proximity of the stations north of Malahide, the steep climbs in Louth and the Drogheda curve and viaduct effectively limits the line to 90MPH. North of the border, well they do well to hit 70MPH.

Jamie2k9

GM228 wrote: »

That's design spec, but they could be upgraded to 105MPH with no work required.

When the Enterprise was delivered the line apeed was 75MPH and upgraded to 90MPH for them, had they been spec'd for 100MPH then the line would have been upgraded to 100MPH most likely - lack of foresight perhaps?

Not the only lack of foresight...

Anything in excess of 70-75mph is the point where costs rise with maintenance of rolling stock. They never really envisaged running above 80mph for the most part until the motorway started to impact them.

Athlone-Westport/Ballina, Sligo, WRC, Tralee, Rosslare all 70-75mph.

Grandeeod

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Not the only lack of foresight...

Anything in excess of 70-75mph is the point where costs rise with maintenance of rolling stock. They never really envisaged running above 80mph for the most part until the motorway started to impact them.

Athlone-Westport/Ballina, Sligo, WRC, Tralee, Rosslare all 70-75mph.

When the Government committed to investment post Knockcroghery, somebody, somewhere took their eye off the ball. The planned motorway network was revealed a few years later. IE were getting funding to replace rolling stock and bring track and signalling up to safe/modern standards. That was the time to cooperate and look at things long term. It was flagged on these forums and others that the railways wouldn't keep up with a motorway network. We had a classic example of it in the 1960s/70s set up in the UK.

When the money was flowing in Celtic Tiger Ireland, we could have had these rail speed issues sorted to some degree in order to compete with a nimproving road network. I don't know if it was the fault of IE or the Government of the day, but as I started with, somebody somewhere lacked vision.

Del.Monte

Grandeeod wrote: »

When the Government committed to investment post Knockcroghery, somebody, somewhere took their eye off the ball. The planned motorway network was revealed a few years later. IE were getting funding to replace rolling stock and bring track and signalling up to safe/modern standards. That was the time to cooperate and look at things long term. It was flagged on these forums and others that the railways wouldn't keep up with a motorway network. We had a classic example of it in the 1960s/70s set up in the UK.

When the money was flowing in Celtic Tiger Ireland, we could have had these rail speed issues sorted to some degree in order to compete with a nimproving road network. I don't know if it was the fault of IE or the Government of the day, but as I started with, somebody somewhere lacked vision.

But, but Pat Kenny said today that the boom was back...so surely we can throw money at everything again starting with four tracking and electrifying the WRC.

LeinsterDub

Has any consideration been given to Brexit in this plan?

Del.Monte

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Has any consideration been given to Brexit in this plan?

Why would Brexit affect the plan as the trains continued to run through to Belfast at the height of the troubles?

LeinsterDub

Del.Monte wrote: »

Why would Brexit affect the plan as the trains continued to run through to Belfast at the height of the troubles?

How did they control the movement of people then? Goods wouldn't be much of a issue I suppose.

Del.Monte

LeinsterDub wrote: »

How did they control the movement of people then? Goods wouldn't be much of a issue I suppose.

Irish Customs officers used to do a cursory check at Dundalk Station and delays were minimal. Can't remember much about Belfast but it was more about security than customs. No freight anymore so that won't be a problem.

Grandeeod

Del.Monte wrote: »

But, but Pat Kenny said today that the boom was back...so surely we can throw money at everything again starting with four tracking and electrifying the WRC.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Has any consideration been given to Brexit in this plan?

I think its a case of wait and see.

Del.Monte wrote: »

Why would Brexit affect the plan as the trains continued to run through to Belfast at the height of the troubles?

This is a different scenario because it's post a lot of treaties since those days.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

How did they control the movement of people then? Goods wouldn't be much of a issue I suppose.

Del.Monte wrote: »

Irish Customs officers used to do a cursory check at Dundalk Station and delays were minimal. Can't remember much about Belfast but it was more about security than customs. No freight anymore so that won't be a problem.

That cursory check disappeared a long time ago as EU rules transcended the common travel area arrangement.

XPS_Zero

Apparently there are theoretical contingency plans - but the real plan would be to leave the UK's back door wide open doing nothing to help the situation, so they'll learn to behave themselves and act like partners in 2018 not ubernationalistic paranoids trying to wall themselves in like it's 1918.


Security will only become an issue on the line again if the UK crashes out AND then puts thousands of troops back on the border with towers and air bases etc, which would almost immediately re-ignite the troubles and collapse the peace process. They are not THAT stupid, the Brexit people are even now admitting (Boris and RM) that it's going to be rough and things will be worse off "but we'll control our own laws". So they are obviously in enough contact with reality to understand what a militarized border would mean. It does appear that the PM is trying to slowly get them to some kind of BINO plan where they have an EEA+ option which would mean the border issue would not arise as they'd still be in the single market and customs union.






Not to repeat myself but all of this ^ should have been part of a New Deal style stimulus package to keep work going during the recession, we could have had DU and MN and Luas extensions done too, now were starting late and half our best people are working in Australia and Canada. Complete lack of strategic thinking by a political class who can't see past the next election never mind 100 years from now when they've turned to dust.




I notice the new bus timetable (see my thread) and when coming home noticed the late night IE Commuter going to Newry at 17:25 is this all part of one strategy? I know there is an IE Commuter going from Newry early in the morning (if you are passing by on 1/2 of the last Enterprises you can see it parked at Newry ready to go). Confusingly, and typical for CIE, the monitors etc were all mixed up. CIE people are always challenging me to name what a private company would do different, and while I'll never dream of privatizing rail (anyone with any education on the topic knows what a disaster the UKs was) this is an example. The bus timetable had changed but the old timetable was on the big screen and the screen above the doors. The RTPI display on platform 6 said 'NEWRY', but when the train pulled in it said "DUNDALK" on the front and the automated tannoy say "DUNDALK". Is this the one that's parked in Newry each night and they just decided 'we may as well add some passenger options to it'? It seems far too common sense and rational a use of resources for CIE, was it Translinks idea?

Lord Glentoran

Del.Monte wrote: »

LeinsterDub wrote: »

How did they control the movement of people then? Goods wouldn't be much of a issue I suppose.

Irish Customs officers used to do a cursory check at Dundalk Station and delays were minimal. Can't remember much about Belfast but it was more about security than customs. No freight anymore so that won't be a problem.

Cursory check how are ye. One hero of a customs official at Dundalk in 1984 wanted to see a receipt for my five year old bike which I was taking Free-to-Free from north Donegal to Dublin via Derry and Belfast.

Del.Monte

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Cursory check how are ye. One hero of a customs official at Dundalk in 1984 wanted to see a receipt for my five year old bike which I was taking Free-to-Free from north Donegal to Dublin via Derry and Belfast.

Sure you were probably in possession of a beard and rucksack too - what could you expect.

GM228

XPS_Zero wrote: »

I notice the new bus timetable (see my thread) and when coming home noticed the late night IE Commuter going to Newry at 17:25 is this all part of one strategy? I know there is an IE Commuter going from Newry early in the morning (if you are passing by on 1/2 of the last Enterprises you can see it parked at Newry ready to go). Confusingly, and typical for CIE, the monitors etc were all mixed up. CIE people are always challenging me to name what a private company would do different, and while I'll never dream of privatizing rail (anyone with any education on the topic knows what a disaster the UKs was) this is an example. The bus timetable had changed but the old timetable was on the big screen and the screen above the doors. The RTPI display on platform 6 said 'NEWRY', but when the train pulled in it said "DUNDALK" on the front and the automated tannoy say "DUNDALK". Is this the one that's parked in Newry each night and they just decided 'we may as well add some passenger options to it'? It seems far too common sense and rational a use of resources for CIE, was it Translinks idea?

This service was extended to Newry in January and is an IE initiative in responce to passenger requests. The auto on board system has yet to catch up with the timetable change, something which should have been addressed well before now.

No trains stable overnight in Newry, it returns empty to Dundalk to stable overnight.

tabbey

GM228 wrote: »

This service was extended to Newry in January and is an IE initiative

No trains stable overnight in Newry, it returns empty to Dundalk to stable overnight.

Speaking of the IR commuter service to/from Newry

Dundalk to Newry is 15 miles, Enterprise trains take 17/ 18 minutes northbound.
The commuter train is allowed 25 mins northbound and 30 minutes southbound.

Presumably the latter includes ten minutes dwell time in Dundalk for some reason, which may well be a valid reason, but it makes a joke of the rail service. A motorist passing Newry station at the time of the commuter train starting, would be within a couple of miles of Drogheda by the time the train leaves Dundalk.

The main advantage of starting the rail journey at Newry is the free parking. In the opposite direction, I drive from Dublin to Newry, park there free all day and take the train from there into Belfast and beyond, for less than half the cost of a Dublin - Belfast rail day return fare.

goingnowhere

The Irish Rail train lacks UK safety equipment and thus is limited in speed in the border - Newry section

Jamie2k9

goingnowhere wrote: »

The Irish Rail train lacks UK safety equipment and thus is limited in speed in the border - Newry section

Surly the 2900 max 75mph speed is the reason for extra time. The morning service is an ICR but as its a 7 car the right sets are never possible.

tabbey

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Surly the 2900 max 75mph speed is the reason for extra time. The morning service is an ICR but as its a 7 car the right sets are never possible.

75 mph is more than enough for the route.

The 30 minutes allowed from Newry to Dundalk (including dwell time at Dundalk) is only an average of 30 mph.

Perhaps the different safety systems require a lower speed limit, I must observe it some morning.

Charles Babbage

tabbey wrote: »

75 mph is more than enough for the route.

The 30 minutes allowed from Newry to Dundalk (including dwell time at Dundalk) is only an average of 30 mph.

Perhaps the different safety systems require a lower speed limit, I must observe it some morning.

Having two different safety systems on one island is profoundly stupid.

tabbey

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Having two different safety systems on one island is profoundly stupid.

That is true.

Irish Rail uses a system appropriate to the network and volume of traffic in Ireland.
Northern Ireland being part of the UK, follows the UK standard.

People driving road vehicles, private cars, buses or HGVs, need to know the rules of the road in different jurisdictions, but apart from right hand / left hand drive, the vehicles are accepted everywhere.

It is another nail in the rail coffin unfortunately.

goingnowhere

More to do with the regulatory environment specifying specific technology

Charles Babbage

tabbey wrote: »

That is true.
Northern Ireland being part of the UK, follows the UK standard.

There is no reason for them to do so, their trains won't even fit on the track in Britain. It is pointless partitionism and nothing more.

Grandeeod

Probably posted this before but its an interesting showcase. The average speed is mentioned. This is a non-Irish viewpoint.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLkK255p9VM

Jamie2k9

Charles Babbage wrote: »

There is no reason for them to do so, their trains won't even fit on the track in Britain. It is pointless partitionism and nothing more.

Well its technically a safer system in some respects and IE are moving to install a new enhanced system.

Del.Monte

Very peaceful journey on the Enterprise, but the camera work was dire and the burger looked most unappetising. Where were all the bilingual announcements?

Hilly Bill

Del.Monte wrote: »

Very peaceful journey on the Enterprise, but the camera work was dire and the burger looked most unappetising. Where were all the bilingual announcements?

I doubt it was Mr speilberg and Ramsey involved in it.

GM228

Del.Monte wrote: »

Where were all the bilingual announcements?

There are none on the Enterprise.

Del.Monte

GM228 wrote: »

There are none on the Enterprise.

I know, I was just stirring things as I loathe the overkill announcements on IE trains.

Grandeeod

Del.Monte wrote: »

Very peaceful journey on the Enterprise, but the camera work was dire and the burger looked most unappetising. Where were all the bilingual announcements?

I'll pass that on to the Vlogger who made the Vid.:D But that guy reviews trains all over Europe and while he was happy enough with the Enterprise service, the average speed issue was raised. The speed of the service is indeed the biggest issue. The same Vlogger has been asked to review the Dub-CRK-DUB service. That would be fun.:D Could be a CAF built job with an okay first class or a Korean rail car, with a really **** premier class. Watch the guys videos from trips on privatized UK railways. We are fooking years behind.

tabbey

Grandeeod wrote: »

Probably posted this before but its an interesting showcase. The average speed is mentioned. This is a non-Irish viewpoint.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLkK255p9VM

He is grossly over estimating the average speed.

113 miles in 2 hrs 15 mins is an average (including station stops) of 50 mph, not the 60 mph he credits the operators.

Grandeeod

tabbey wrote: »

He is grossly over estimating the average speed.

113 miles in 2 hrs 15 mins is an average (including station stops) of 50 mph, not the 60 mph he credits the operators.

Makes it worse so.:D Its all nice and shiney, but feckin slow.

Jamie2k9

Del.Monte wrote: »

I know, I was just stirring things as I loathe the overkill announcements on IE trains.

You should write a letter!!, I bombarded them with emails a few years ago to get the announcements cut on Waterford trains because with most stations only 10 minutes apart, the PA was rambling for around 5 minutes between each stop.

They didn't cut them for the other routes....

Del.Monte

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

You should write a letter!!, I bombarded them with emails a few years ago to get the announcements cut on Waterford trains because with most stations only 10 minutes apart, the PA was rambling for around 5 minutes between each stop.

They didn't cut them for the other routes....

I'll give it another try with the new acting (?) CEO and report back here.

Lord Glentoran

Del.Monte wrote: »

I'll give it another try with the new acting (?) CEO and report back here.

I don’t mind the next ‘station stop’ announcement in English and Irish, but the rest is just a major pain in the Swiss Roll. Talk about stating the bleedin’ obvious.

Hilly Bill

Del.Monte wrote: »

I'll give it another try with the new acting (?) CEO and report back here.

He's not acting anymore, he got the job.

Jamie2k9

Del.Monte wrote: »

I'll give it another try with the new acting (?) CEO and report back here.

I never wrote to the CEO, you need to target the area with the problem and give justifiable reasons. I would be surprised if such a letter would reach a CEO. His PA would probally dump it over something so trivial.

Hilly Bill

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I never wrote to the CEO, you need to target the area with the problem and give justifiable reasons. I would be surprised if such a letter would reach a CEO. His PA would probally dump it over something so trivial.

Probably wouldn't.

Del.Monte

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I never wrote to the CEO, you need to target the area with the problem and give justifiable reasons. I would be surprised if such a letter would reach a CEO. His PA would probally dump it over something so trivial.

My experience would indicate otherwise as I invariably receive a reply, but I doubt the CIE mindset can be changed no matter how many letters are received.

tabbey

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I never wrote to the CEO, you need to target the area with the problem and give justifiable reasons. I would be surprised if such a letter would reach a CEO. His PA would probally dump it over something so trivial.

I wrote to David Franks some years ago.

I was pleasantly surprised with his response. Every issue I raised was answered.I may not have been entirely satisfied by the answers, but it was clear that Franks read and understood the points raised, and that he raised the matters with the relevant members of his team.

In an era when letters to the Taoiseach and ministers receive an acknowledgement at best, from some clerical assistant, it was a tonic to get the reply from Franks.

He may be a dying breed, but perhaps not.

Hilly Bill

Del.Monte wrote: »

My experience would indicate otherwise as I invariably receive a reply, but I doubt the CIE mindset can be changed no matter how many letters are received.

What mindset?

Jamie2k9

Del.Monte wrote: »

My experience would indicate otherwise as I invariably receive a reply, but I doubt the CIE mindset can be changed no matter how many letters are received.

It takes work but I do struggle with very questionable decisions and when they have the opportunity to address them they don't.

Del.Monte

Hilly Bill wrote: »

What mindset?

That they (CIE) know best and are unaccountable to anybody.

Hilly Bill

Del.Monte wrote: »

That they (CIE) know best and are unaccountable to anybody.

They may know more than you do on CIE matters.

marno21

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Aren't there still Permanent Way issues south of Portadown?

Can you explain what these are please for someone that doesn't know?

Lord Glentoran

marno21 wrote: »

Can you explain what these are please for someone that doesn't know?

Sure. The permanent way is the finished trackbed of the railway together with the track and other permanent equipment. Speed restrictions apply when there are outstanding defects, awaiting remedial work, but which are not so onerous that closure is required.

I don't have access to the working timetable which would point up what and where speed restrictions are, but others may have. In the recent past I have experienced slow speeds between Poyntzpass and Portadown due to these where the permanent way traverses "wet spots" or boggy ground beneath the track.

Hope this helps.