2018-2019 Champions Cup

Rigor Mortis

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

Leinster
Exeter
Saracens
Racing
Montpellier
Glasgow
Wasps
Castres / Scarlets

Unless Munster get lucky on scheduling they aren’t getting out of that pool.

Wouldn't be sure of that. They'll win their home games, depends on what they can pick up on the road.

umop episdn

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

Leinster
Exeter
Saracens
Racing
Montpellier
Glasgow
Wasps
Castres / Scarlets

Unless Munster get lucky on scheduling they aren’t getting out of that pool.

https://goo.gl/images/LPXUU1

Rigor Mortis

Juan Magnificent Locomotive wrote: »

Wouldn't be sure of that. They'll win their home games, depends on what they can pick up on the road.

They will get it hard to get anything off Exzeder.

irishbucsfan

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

They will get it hard to get anything off Exzeder.

That's not a strategy I've heard discussed publicly before

Neil3030

irishbucsfan wrote: »

That's not a strategy I've heard discussed publicly before

Just watch out for their openside, Dong Hardman

roverjoyce

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Because the other two Irish teams are better than all the other teams?

Nationality shouldn't come in to it it should be by the league they are coming from
There will always be 2 pro14 teams in pot 4 so they should not be separated by country

Cookiemunster

roverjoyce wrote: »

Nationality shouldn't come in to it it should be by the league they are coming from
There will always be 2 pro14 teams in pot 4 so they should not be separated by country

Except that those are the rules as agreed by the unions and leagues when the competition was reorganised.

thomond2006

roverjoyce wrote: »

Nationality shouldn't come in to it it should be by the league they are coming from
There will always be 2 pro14 teams in pot 4 so they should not be separated by country

It makes no commercial sense. The interpros in Pro14 are a cash cow. Having more interpros in Europe would cannibalise those attendances. A zero sum game.

irishbucsfan

thomond2006 wrote: »

It makes no commercial sense. The interpros in Pro14 are a cash cow. Having more interpros in Europe would cannibalise those attendances. A zero sum game.

Making european knockouts is an even bigger cash cow

The Lost Sheep

roverjoyce wrote: »

Nationality shouldn't come in to it it should be by the league they are coming from
There will always be 2 pro14 teams in pot 4 so they should not be separated by country

They should be split. It would alter league attendances which are some of the only league games that get any form of decent away support
And its bad enough we have multiple sides from same country in 3 of the pools without opening up possibility of a fourth pool having sides from same nation

Jump_In_Jack

roverjoyce wrote: »

Nationality shouldn't come in to it it should be by the league they are coming from
There will always be 2 pro14 teams in pot 4 so they should not be separated by country

You said it was unfair though, how do you think it amounts to being unfair?
The quality of the teams in each pool are roughly even, so how unfair is it if Scarlets get Ulster instead of Blues, or Leinster get Bath instead of Ulster, or Munster get Gloucester instead of Ulster?

Also remember that Wales have 2 teams in it, Scotland have 2 teams in it, Ireland have 3 teams in it, whereas England have 7 teams in it and France have 6 teams in it.
It makes sense to separate teams from a country with 2 or 3 teams in it, for both reasons of having some variety for the clubs and their supporters, and also so that it removes any possibility of two teams from the same country colluding on results.

Once the teams are of a similar quality there is no unfairness in separating Pro14 teams from the same country, and it’s simply not possible to separate the English and French clubs as there are 5 pools and minimum of 6 teams from those countries.

ArmaniJeanss

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

It makes sense to separate teams from a country with 2 or 3 teams in it, for both reasons of having some variety for the clubs and their supporters, and also so that it removes any possibility of two teams from the same country colluding on results.

The variety argument doesn't really hold up. Because this rule means that in any season Leinster can play Glasgow or Scarlets 4 times in the league phases (twice in Pro14, twice in H-Cup) but only ever play an Irish province 2 times (twice in Pro14, 0 in HCup). That doesn't seem like positive variety for fans.

I don't think collusion is a big issue either - seeding for the knockouts is so important that no-ones going to give up a result just to get their fellow countrymen through.

Obviously I understand why they do it, I just think it's a shame that there's no chance of getting the epic ties that interpro back to back HCup group games would be.

Jump_In_Jack

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

The variety argument doesn't really hold up. Because this rule means that in any season Leinster can play Glasgow or Scarlets 4 times in the league phases (twice in Pro14, twice in H-Cup) but only ever play an Irish province 2 times (twice in Pro14, 0 in HCup). That doesn't seem like positive variety for fans.

I don't think collusion is a big issue either - seeding for the knockouts is so important that no-ones going to give up a result just to get their fellow countrymen through.

Obviously I understand why they do it, I just think it's a shame that there's no chance of getting the epic ties that interpro back to back HCup group games would be.

You said no to the reasons I mentioned by then said you obviously understand why they do it,
Then what other reason is there?
Is it so the interpros in the Pro14 won’t be devalued?

Anyway, they are all valid reasons, some hold more weight than others, but it’s certainly not unfair to split the teams from Ireland (or Wales or Scotland) which is what was being suggested.
Do you think it’s unfair?

Another reason perhaps is that the unions don’t want to have a situation where they may have two teams in the one pool, and therefore reduce the chances that both would progress to knockouts, whereas if they were split up into different pools the union would have more of a chance of both of their teams progressing.

The variety reason does stand up if you think about it being a European cup, and the attraction for the sponsors and the supporters is having clubs playing teams from other countries that they don’t already play in their own league. It’s a big part of the draw for fans and therefore the sponsors.
Your example was flawed also, the variety is that the team can play any team outside their country not just a team from the Pro14, so it still holds the possibility of the team being from England or France, which is positive variety as you called it.
If it ends up being another Pro14 team then that’s just luck of the draw, but it’s still more of a draw to the regular fan than playing your fellow province.

And you say collusion wouldn’t be an issue, well think about it, what if Munster and Ulster were in the same group and one of the teams was already eliminated while the other needed a bonus point win in the last game to progress, would the IRFU put pressure on the eliminated team to field a weakened team and rest a few players? Or would you trust that Scotland or Wales wouldn’t do it either if they had the same situation?

ArmaniJeanss

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Do you think it’s unfair?

I think it's fairly clear from my previous rambling post that I'm conflicted about it :P
Ultimately I don't see the sense in being able to play Glasgow four times in league phase but only play say Munster twice. But also can see revenue reasons, player protections reasons, maximisation of chances of getting multiple teams through to 1/4 finals. Also any single country ties may not be attractive for sponsors and outside broadcasters either, BT and Sky like to build up the Country A v Country B rivalry aspect to fixtures.
It is what it is, not a big deal really.

Jump_In_Jack

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I think it's fairly clear from my previous rambling post that I'm conflicted about it :P
Ultimately I don't see the sense in being able to play Glasgow four times in league phase but only play say Munster twice. But also can see revenue reasons, player protections reasons, maximisation of chances of getting multiple teams through to 1/4 finals. Also any single country ties may not be attractive for sponsors and outside broadcasters either, BT and Sky like to build up the Country A v Country B rivalry aspect to fixtures.
It is what it is, not a big deal really.

Yes I agree there are probably a few reasons why they do it
The point was that it isn’t unfair to the other teams.
I also think it is a good spectacle to see Irish teams play against each other in Europe but just preferably not in the pool stages.
And in the pro14 playoffs we often get Irish provinces playing off against each other too, so those derbies might get a bit too repetitive if also played in group stages.

Rigor Mortis

roverjoyce wrote: »

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Because the other two Irish teams are better than all the other teams?

Nationality shouldn't come in to it it should be by the league they are coming from
There will always be 2 pro14 teams in pot 4 so they should not be separated by country

It may also be a consideration that the clubs in England and France are nervous about teams with the same owner (Irfu, WRU, SRU) colluding on results in a group to see a second team progress from a group.  This rule not only greatly reduces that possibility it also reduces the perception that it might happen.

umop episdn

Hadn't realised that Leo Cullen had left Leinster!

stephen_n

umop episdn wrote: »

Hadn't realised that Leo Cullen had left Leinster!

Leinster will be a British club next.

ScrubsfanChris

The first fixtures for the Pool Stage will be released later this summer, around two weeks after the last fixture announcement of Europe’s three professional domestic leagues.

https://twitter.com/ChampionsCup/status/1015533121251442688

The way the Pro14 are faffing about we wont get Champions Cup fixtures until September then :pac:

molloyjh

ScrubsfanChris wrote: »

https://twitter.com/ChampionsCup/status/1015533121251442688

The way the Pro14 are faffing about we wont get Champions Cup fixtures until September then :pac:

To be fair, the Pro14 have to organise fixtures across 2 hemispheres, 5 countries (and therefore 5 Unions), a handful of TV stations and 14 teams. Compare that to the AP and Top 14. 1 hemisphere, 1 country (1 Union), 1 TV station and 12/14 teams. It's going to take longer as a result. There's not much anyone can do there really. Fixtures are due out the same time as last year apparently, which is the start of August. I'd expect the HEC fixtures in the third week of August.

acer911

molloyjh wrote: »

To be fair, the Pro14 have to organise fixtures across 2 hemispheres, 5 countries (and therefore 5 Unions), a handful of TV stations and 14 teams. Compare that to the AP and Top 14. 1 hemisphere, 1 country (1 Union), 1 TV station and 12/14 teams. It's going to take longer as a result. There's not much anyone can do there really. Fixtures are due out the same time as last year apparently, which is the start of August. I'd expect the HEC fixtures in the third week of August.

Pro14 Chief Executive said last week that the fixtures should be out the middle of this month, so in the next week or so!

molloyjh

acer911 wrote: »

Pro14 Chief Executive said last week that the fixtures should be out the middle of this month, so in the next week or so!

Ah, maybe I'm getting confused on what was said so. Last year was late because of the expansion so that makes more sense. So we can expect the HEC fixtures to be announced at the end of July or start of August then. Good stuff.

molloyjh

The Headline Maker has done it again! Pocket change to him, but the points could make a big difference to Toulon.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2018/0717/979344-toulon-president-boudjellal-hit-with-75k-fine/

thomond2006

molloyjh wrote: »

The Headline Maker has done it again! Pocket change to him, but the points could make a big difference to Toulon.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2018/0717/979344-toulon-president-boudjellal-hit-with-75k-fine/

The points deduction is suspended.

Podge_irl

thomond2006 wrote: »

The points deduction is suspended.

Sure, but at least it might make him think about behaving for three years. From what I understand if he runs into trouble in the Top14 the EPCR penalty will kick in as well.

Cookiemunster

Finally some white smoke. Fixtures tomorrow at noon.

vienne86

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Finally some white smoke. Fixtures tomorrow at noon.

Well spotted - was just about to post a question about this. About time too.

molloyjh

https://www.epcrugby.com/champions-cup/matches/

Horrible layout....

Leinster have Bath in the back to backs. Ulster have Scarlets. Munster have Castres. Connacht have Perpignan.

Buer

So TV3 are actually sharing their televised game with other free to air stations and will only have two games featuring the provinces (round 2 and 5). They're going to have shag all people tuning in to watch the likes of Bath vs Toulouse, Cardiff vs Saracens or Gloucester vs Exeter.

icdg

I’m not sure why TV3 agreed to that deal. They’ve litterally been saddled with taking someone else’s picks and two games with Irish involvement on one side. That’s a terrible deal for them.

Eod100

icdg wrote: »

I’m not sure why TV3 agreed to that deal. They’ve litterally been saddled with taking someone else’s picks and two games with Irish involvement on one side. That’s a terrible deal for them.

When it was announced I was under impression they would show 1 province each round

Buer

Eod100 wrote: »

When it was announced I was under impression they would show 1 province each round

I think that's the impression many had. It would be similar to the early days of the HEC when RTE had a big match on every weekend in the pool stages which really helped grow the tournament here.

This is silly. It's not even away games either; one Munster home game and one Leinster home game which will have a chunk of supporters actually in attendance (which would only be a very small part of the target audience but part regardless).

slingerz

Buer wrote: »

So TV3 are actually sharing their televised game with other free to air stations and will only have two games featuring the provinces (round 2 and 5). They're going to have shag all people tuning in to watch the likes of Bath vs Toulouse, Cardiff vs Saracens or Gloucester vs Exeter.

Why would no one tune in? I'm pretty sure rugby fans will tune in and pubs will be happy to show them

Rigor Mortis

You dont know what they are paying. It may be a great deal. Clearly BT cant afford to give up too much if they want to build a subscriber base.

Buer

slingerz wrote: »

Why would no one tune in? I'm pretty sure rugby fans will tune in and pubs will be happy to show them

Hardcore rugby fans will watch. Others won't bother. You can see any year from this forum that the interest in games outside the provinces is patchy at best.

Cardiff against Saracens holds next to no interest for even some of the most dedicated rugby supporters. The other two at least feature teams that will be in Munster's and Leinster's respective pools. But even then, I wouldn't expect big viewing numbers.

They've also been given the 1pm slot on Saturday for all of their games (which is a crap slot at the best of times). It's almost guaranteed to clash with big Premiership football matches which will affect numbers too along with pubs putting the game on.

molloyjh

Buer wrote: »

Hardcore rugby fans will watch. Others won't bother. You can see any year from this forum that the interest in games outside the provinces is patchy at best.

Cardiff against Saracens holds next to no interest for even some of the most dedicated rugby supporters. The other two at least feature teams that will be in Munster's and Leinster's respective pools. But even then, I wouldn't expect big viewing numbers.

They've also been given the 1pm slot on Saturday for all of their games (which is a crap slot at the best of times). It's almost guaranteed to clash with big Premiership football matches which will affect numbers too along with pubs putting the game on.

Yeah, I'd be fairly hardcore relatively speaking and I'd generally try and watch those games. But if something else came up I wouldn't think twice about missing them. I can't see TV3 being able to get a big draw at all outside of the 2 provincial games they are showing.

thomond2006

I'm very confused by this. How many people are going to watch Cardiff vs Sarseholes?
I'm going to assume TV3 paid a bargain price to get this coverage.

Riskymove

thomond2006 wrote: »

I'm very confused by this. How many people are going to watch Cardiff vs Sarseholes?
I'm going to assume TV3 paid a bargain price to get this coverage.

indeed

basically TV3 and C4 get thrown one game each round by BT

I would hope that its part of terms and conditions for the tender and that it cost little or no money to TV3 or C4

kooga

I would of thought tv3 and ch 4 would of been treated the same as fr2 who always have a Sunday afternoon fixture with a French team

And bein sport in France like bt sport would be trying to build up a subscriber base / its amazing that the French terrestrial broadcasters have always kept their pick which includes a challenge cup game on fr4 on Saturday evenings at 8.

Tv3 as said early arejust showing somebody else's picks

Digifriendly

Buer wrote: »

Hardcore rugby fans will watch. Others won't bother. You can see any year from this forum that the interest in games outside the provinces is patchy at best.

Cardiff against Saracens holds next to no interest for even some of the most dedicated rugby supporters. The other two at least feature teams that will be in Munster's and Leinster's respective pools. But even then, I wouldn't expect big viewing numbers.

They've also been given the 1pm slot on Saturday for all of their games (which is a crap slot at the best of times). It's almost guaranteed to clash with big Premiership football matches which will affect numbers too along with pubs putting the game on.

Excellent post and totally agree. TV3 up here in NI. is Saorview only and therefore SD and not HD but at least we can watch FTA coverage on Channel 4 HD here. Nevertheless I think is a poor deal terrestrially speaking. Lunchtime Saturday may not be the graveyard slot but will garner nowhere near a Friday night or later Saturday KO slot would.
Notice no Irish or UK channel is listed to cover any Challenge Cup games live.

OldRio

Well TV3 in SD only on saorview means it will not be watched in this household.

icdg

I’m not sure Channel 4 picked them either, mind you, because I don’t think they’d have picked Leinster v Tolouse. If I was to have a guess I’d say EPCR are making the picks.

Meanwhile, I hadn’t picked up on the fact that the European Challenge Cup, as if it hadn’t died enough of a slow death; no longer gets any U.K. TV coverage, at least up to the end of the pool stages. Probably a consequence of the fact that BT now have to squeeze more Heineken Cup games in. The Thursday night slot didn’t help because some of the rounds seem to inevitably clash with Europa League fixtures.

kooga

icdg wrote: »

I’m not sure Channel 4 picked them either, mind you, because I don’t think they’d have picked Leinster v Tolouse. If I was to have a guess I’d say EPCR are making the picks.

Meanwhile, I hadn’t picked up on the fact that the European Challenge Cup, as if it hadn’t died enough of a slow death; no longer gets any U.K. TV coverage, at least up to the end of the pool stages. Probably a consequence of the fact that BT now have to squeeze more Heineken Cup games in. The Thursday night slot didn’t help because some of the rounds seem to inevitably clash with Europa League fixtures.

The Thursday night games in the challenge were on sky as as you mentioned bt had europa league

Having looked at the challenge cup fixtures the only game on tv is the sat 8pm on fr 4 and all the fixtures involve an Anglo France game so more than likely bt will pick that sat night fixture

Tigerandahalf

Didn't realise the Challenge Cup games weren't being televised. You would think TG4 would be glad to have the coverage of Connacht's games.

Are tv3/virgin not showing any?

The Lost Sheep

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Didn't realise the Challenge Cup games weren't being televised. You would think TG4 would be glad to have the coverage of Connacht's games.

Are tv3/virgin not showing any?

only ever really was one a weekend here/uk wasnt there but doubt tg4 would have been given rights to show the games.

Shefwedfan

TV3 C4 would have never got an Irish team each round. Then BT would lose revenue because the standard Irish fan wouldn't buy BT sports ....they would just watch whichever province was on that weekend.....

To be honest if I didn't have BT I would sit and watch the games anyway. The main problem I see is the s**t times for the games. 1 on a Saturday...you wont get the standard sports fan looking for something to watch in the evening.....it's a pity....

TV3 will get 2 big pay days with the Munster and Leinster match......Leinster match probably a bigger contest

thomond2006

This is the new Heineken Champions Cup logo.



This is the Sarseholes logo.





I sense a CONSPIRACY!

Squidgy Black

thomond2006 wrote: »

This is the new Heineken Champions Cup logo.



This is the Sarseholes logo.





I sense a CONSPIRACY!

Both have a red star.

Red star is a communist symbol.

Eoin Farrell plays for Saracens.

Eddie Jones is Eoin Farrell's coach.

Therefore Eddie Jones is a communist. Confirmed.

Commanchie

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Both have a red star.

Red star is a communist symbol.

Eoin Farrell plays for Saracens.

Eddie Jones is Eoin Farrell's coach.

Therefore Eddie Jones is a communist. Confirmed.

That is some mighty fine conspiracy theorising.

Riskymove

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Eoin Farrell plays for Saracens.

er.....

Andy Farrell is Owen's Father
Andy Farrell coaches Ireland


IRELAND is communist!!