Ireland v Australia - 2nd test, how the expected starting XVs compare.

The Lost Sheep

Billy86 wrote: »

Is a deliberate knock on a yellow card, though?

Yes they can sometimes.

swiwi_ wrote: »

So you won...but the thread is still littered with complaints about the ref Are there any refs at all that Irish fans can endure?? Maybe the French lads seem to get slightly less stick on here is my impression.

I think you should more wonder how your side keeps dominating territory and possession in virtually every match Ireland plays these days (which is a magnificent effort)...but can't chalk up cricket scores. Those endless side to side 3 man pods in the red zone are minimal risk, but minimal reward.

Do you always have to generalise all irish fans.....
Have yet to watch match so cant comment but is there any ref at all that most fans "can endure"? Nearly all will be disliked for some reason or other.

I agree we should be questioning why Ireland are having so many games with high possession and territory but few scores. Questions have to be asked why we cant score more? It is coming from players not able to .... or is it coming from coach not wanting players to "play"?

mangobob

swiwi_ wrote: »

So you won...but the thread is still littered with complaints about the ref Are there any refs at all that Irish fans can endure??

At this rate it wont be long until the number of posts complaining about the ref are exceeded by the number of posts complaining about people complaining about the ref.

Just give it time

amcalester

Bridge93 wrote: »

Based on what?

Getting caught out of position on the defensive line.

Buer

amcalester wrote: »

Getting caught out of position on the defensive line.

When?

And yes, that's a loaded question.

Billy86

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Yes they can sometimes.

Sorry, I since edited and expanded on that post. Indeed they can 'sometimes', but the very deliberate inconsistency in applying these was appalling.

Inconsistency in a bunch of rules can be down to pressure of the fans or split second decisions and is the case across all sports... fans will b*tch and moan but that's the nature of sports, and refs can't be perfect. But when you decide time and again to let one team off on it and let them know you saw them do it, but insist on multiple TMO replays to find and card as soon as the opponent does it, well something reeks there.

Billy86

mangobob wrote: »

At this rate it wont be long until the number of posts complaining about the ref are exceeded by the number of posts complaining about people complaining about the ref.

Just give it time

Can you please stop complaining about people complaining about people complaining about the ref!? :mad:

Shefwedfan

swiwi_ wrote: »

So you won...but the thread is still littered with complaints about the ref Are there any refs at all that Irish fans can endure??

Jaco Peyper

amcalester

Buer wrote: »

When?

And yes, that's a loaded question.

About 80 seconds in to the match.

In the Italy game he was at fault for their 3rd try (iirc).

I know this is nitpicking but Ireland are dominating possession in most matches and Leavy has been caught out twice in recent matches.

Would it be more in matches we’re not dominating?

Shefwedfan

Billy86 wrote: »

Is a deliberate knock on a yellow card, though?

Yes

If unsure listen to explanation from the ref when he rightly gave McGrath a yellow card for doing it

Buer

amcalester wrote: »

About 80 seconds in to the match.

Wasn't his man or his tackle to make. He could have reacted and taken Beale down but that would have been great covering by him. He was tracking Foley. No player on the field was going to adjust to take Beale down on that cut. The drift was covering that.

Clegg

There was some confusion over who was awarded motm and it has since been confirmed it was Furlong. And quite honestly I don't think it could've been anyone else. PoM was great but Furlong was exceptional. The scrum was rock solid and he made so many excellent carries, making so many metres and committing two and three defenders to tackling him each time. He was sensational.

clsmooth

swiwi_ wrote: »

So you won...but the thread is still littered with complaints about the ref Are there any refs at all that Irish fans can endure??

Too true, not sure when this started (possibly Ireland NZ in 2016?), but there seems to be a unhealthy obsession recently with focusing on calls against us, whilst ignoring calls that go in our favour. Maybe a seperate thread for ref baiting whilst any comments on the ref in match threads could be given warnings? :eek:

Billy86

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Yes

If unsure listen to explanation from the ref when he rightly gave McGrath a yellow card for doing it

In which case (if it is an automatic yellow) Williams knowingly broke the rules by not doing the same for the Aussies. Refs can get calls wrong of course, but refs should not be knowingly breaking the rules of the sport which is what happened here in that case.

If it is a black-and-white rule, then he may as well have been disallowing perfectly good kicks and tries for no other reason than not wanting the game to get too lopsided.

Shefwedfan

clsmooth wrote: »

Too true, not sure when this started (possibly Ireland NZ in 2016?), but there seems to be a unhealthy obsession recently with focusing on calls against us, whilst ignoring calls that go in our favour. Maybe a seperate thread for ref baiting whilst any comments on the ref in match threads could be given warnings? :eek:

To be fair in most of the 6 nations match's I didn't see anything been mentioned about ref

Especially after the Wales match I only seen good reviews....and we normally hate Barnes :p

So far the Southern Hemp ref's have been shocking poor. Not just in the Ireland match but in other match's. I am mostly annoyed because it is ruining good match's....it would have been a lot better game today if the ref was consistent. How much time was wasted with Ireland attacking and Wallabies constantly fouling. Penatly...start again....Penalty....start again....Penalty.....

In australia they are trying to get people interested in going/watching rugby again. They won't with that sort of stuff going on.

pickarooney

The only thing that I have a chronic issue with, as far as reffing goes, and it's more to do with the directives from on high is that there is a blatant inconsistency with regards to 'intent' and 'outcome'. Intent is never considered as a factor until it is (deliberately knock on, gouging, stamping) while outcome is irrelevant in some cases (high tackles) and the only important factor in others (aerial challenges).

Yeah_Right

Billy86 wrote: »

Is a deliberate knock on a yellow card, though?

Because he essentially said to Hooper that no cards would be coming for it -just more warnings- by refusing to give any yellows when they kept doing it. About 90 seconds later, Ireland does it and he's up to the TMO before you can blink, busily and almost excitedly trying to find out who it was like a bloodhound sniffing the insides of a bag.

It's one thing to get the calls wrong in the heat of the moment or with how fast things can go. It's another to completely stop a game and make a very conscious and deliberate decision that "the thing I've been letting one team off with again and again despite seeing it (and telling all the players on the field as much) all game has now been done by the opposite team... and you better believe I'm going to hammer them for it!" He had plenty of time to think and reflect on just how wildly and deliberately inconsistent he was being, and carried on doing so anyway.

Did you actually watch the game? With the sound on? Or did you reach the above conclusion by reading Twitter?

The ref blew for a knock on by Phipps originally. His AR (Gauzerre?) said he saw foul play so they should go to the TMO. Then he correctly yellow carded McGrath. Interesting that Poite gave a yellow card against England for an almost identical situation. The Foley knock on was completely different. So in answer to your question, sometimes a deliberate knock on is a yellow card. Just like sometimes it's a penalty try.

If Furlong hadn't scored, it's almost certain the Aussies would have lost a player. For some reason scoring a try often seems to wipe the slate clean.

Hurrache

clsmooth wrote: »

Too true, not sure when this started (possibly Ireland NZ in 2016?), but there seems to be a unhealthy obsession recently with focusing on calls against us, whilst ignoring calls that go in our favour. Maybe a seperate thread for ref baiting whilst any comments on the ref in match threads could be given warnings? :eek:

Again, why are people not allowed to question calls no matter how many calls went for us previously? Have you guys got some unwritten rule which says that a referee's call is not allowed to be queried if we've benefited from previous calls?

You're being ridiculous. If you actually paid attention to the issue instead of jumping onto a misguided bandwagon you'll see the main issue is with how he approached the same offence differently, disregarding his numerous warnings which weren't really warnings at all.

baas baa

Buer wrote: »

amcalester wrote: »

About 80 seconds in to the match.

Wasn't his man or his tackle to make. He could have reacted and taken Beale down but that would have been great covering by him. He was tracking Foley. No player on the field was going to adjust to take Beale down on that cut. The drift was covering that.

I only saw highlights but it looked like he over committed on Foley and got caught in a bit of no mans land. He has been prone to getting caught out in open field in a green jersey.

Anthracite

Yeah_Right wrote: »

If Furlong hadn't scored, it's almost certain the Aussies would have lost a player. For some reason scoring a try often seems to wipe the slate clean.

Wasn't that one of three deliberate knock-ons by Australia? One in midfield, which was just a penalty, fair enough, but there was one on their try line that was unpunished aside from a penalty advantage, and another one where a dangerous overlap was killed deliberately.

McGrath's was a stone-cold yellow. Two of the Australians should have seen yellow. They got none. That's the problem.

pickarooney

Angus Gardner does a pretty good summary of when a knock is deliberately, a penalty or a card here.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1688792341156256&id=182241841811321&refsrc=https%3A%2F%2Fm.facebook.com%2Ffoxrugby%2Fvideos%2F1688792341156256%2F

Yeah_Right

Hurrache wrote: »

Again, why are people not allowed to question calls no matter how many calls went for us previously? Have you guys got some unwritten rule which says that a referee's call is not allowed to be queried if we've benefited from previous calls?

You're being ridiculous. If you actually paid attention to the issue instead of jumping onto a misguided bandwagon you'll see the main issue is with how he approached the same offence differently, disregarding his numerous warnings which weren't really warnings at all.

I think the issue is the constant whinging. Other posters have given explanations about how the situations were different or why calls were made but some people ignore those explanations and just keep bleating about the ref being biased or incompetent.

Shefwedfan

Yeah_Right wrote: »

If Furlong hadn't scored, it's almost certain the Aussies would have lost a player. For some reason scoring a try often seems to wipe the slate clean.

I hate that, if it’s a yellow it’s a yellow....a try should not stop giving the player a yellow

Hurrache

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I think the issue is the constant whinging. Other posters have given explanations about how the situations were different or why calls were made but some people ignore those explanations and just keep bleating about the ref being biased or incompetent.

But there hasn't. Since shortly after the final whistle there's been more whinging from people like you have been, across threads, than there has been by people you claim are whinging. So much so that it's become a running joke today.

baas baa

What's worse than constant moaning about a ref IMO is prolonged moaning about constant moaning about a ref.

Anthracite

pickarooney wrote: »

Angus Gardner does a pretty good summary of when a knock is deliberately, a penalty or a card here.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1688792341156256&id=182241841811321&refsrc=https%3A%2F%2Fm.facebook.com%2Ffoxrugby%2Fvideos%2F1688792341156256%2F

Nice one. So, for the example of Foley (?) deliberately knocking on when we had a overlap (albeit in our own half) that's a yellow, according to Gardner.

munsterlegend

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Did you actually watch the game? With the sound on? Or did you reach the above conclusion by reading Twitter?

The ref blew for a knock on by Phipps originally. His AR (Gauzerre?) said he saw foul play so they should go to the TMO. Then he correctly yellow carded McGrath. Interesting that Poite gave a yellow card against England for an almost identical situation. The Foley knock on was completely different. So in answer to your question, sometimes a deliberate knock on is a yellow card. Just like sometimes it's a penalty try.

If Furlong hadn't scored, it's almost certain the Aussies would have lost a player. For some reason scoring a try often seems to wipe the slate clean.

Ref has no problem sending Healy to the bin even though he awarded a penalty try. He had warned the Aussies just before Furlong try but they still give away another penalty and no further sanction.

To be honest I would favour something like ice hockey where if a team scores a try during sin bin then they should be restored to full numbers then. I think a try and a yellow is too severe.

pickarooney

Anthracite wrote: »

Nice one. So, for the example of Foley (?) deliberately knocking on when we had a overlap (albeit in our own half) that's a yellow, according to Gardner.

I still haven't seen the Foley one. The one in the first half, at first glance was never a card though.

Anthracite

pickarooney wrote: »

I still haven't seen the Foley one. The one in the first half, at first glance was never a card though.

The one I think you are referring to was in the middle of the park, and I agree.

mangobob

Billy86 wrote: »

Can you please stop complaining about people complaining about people complaining about the ref!? :mad:

So you're complaining about my complaining about people complaining about other people complaining about the ref?!

Jaysus we just played a great match and had our first win down under in nearly 40 years and all some people can do is moan :rolleyes: :pac: :P

Yeah_Right

Anthracite wrote: »

Wasn't that one of three deliberate knock-ons by Australia? One in midfield, which was just a penalty, fair enough, but there was one on their try line that was unpunished aside from a penalty advantage, and another one where a dangerous overlap was killed deliberately.

McGrath's was a stone-cold yellow. Two of the Australians should have seen yellow. They got none. That's the problem.

Was Foley's one the one that killed the overlap? That one was 50:50 for me. I understand not giving a yellow but I also could understand a yellow there. There was a lot of cover and it was instinctive so that might have been a factor in the non card.

Like I said, Furlong scoring kept Australia at 15 players. I would actually like to see refs card players for repeated infringements on their line even if the other side scores. I think that would take a directive from World Rugby though.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Anthracite wrote: »

Nice one. So, for the example of Foley (?) deliberately knocking on when we had a overlap (albeit in our own half) that's a yellow, according to Gardner.

He might have been judged to be trying to intercept the ball which is why knock ons are rarely yellow cards.

If anything there were too many yellow cards in the game anyway.

Boscoirl

But the ref called it as a deliberate knock on, but still,gave the pen only

Billy86

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Did you actually watch the game? With the sound on? Or did you reach the above conclusion by reading Twitter?

The ref blew for a knock on by Phipps originally. His AR (Gauzerre?) said he saw foul play so they should go to the TMO. Then he correctly yellow carded McGrath. Interesting that Poite gave a yellow card against England for an almost identical situation. The Foley knock on was completely different. So in answer to your question, sometimes a deliberate knock on is a yellow card. Just like sometimes it's a penalty try.

If Furlong hadn't scored, it's almost certain the Aussies would have lost a player. For some reason scoring a try often seems to wipe the slate clean.

He called it a deliberate knock on and gave no yellow... why?

He also penalised Caleb Timu about 20 minutes in for another deliberate knock on, blew it up and gave us the penalty which Sexton scored without even playing advantage as he was so sure of it... but no yellow. Why was that?

But as soon as we did he was like a fecking hawk looking to get the TMO to keep replaying and replaying until they could identify and card the Irish player responsible.

Phonehead

By my count there's more people complaining about people complaining 🀣🀣

Anthracite

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

He might have been judged to be trying to intercept the ball which is why knock ons are rarely yellow cards.

If anything there were too many yellow cards in the game anyway.

That's another issue, and you may well be right. But on the first point, intention doesn't come into it. According to Gardner, what matters is whether you are in a position to play the ball after you knock it on.

Yeah_Right

Billy86 wrote: »

He called it a deliberate knock on and gave no yellow... why?

He also penalised Caleb Timu about 20 minutes in for another deliberate knock on, blew it up and gave us the penalty which Sexton scored without even playing advantage as he was so sure of it... but no yellow. Why was that?

But as soon as we did he was like a fecking hawk looking to get the TMO to keep replaying and replaying until they could identify and card the Irish player responsible.

Why? Because in some situations it warrants a yellow and in others it's just a penalty.

I don't remember the Timu one so I can't comment. Foley's was a fluid situation and more instinctive. He decided penalty only. McGrath's was static and cynical. Not the same.

Once again, it wasn't the ref that spotted McGrath it was the AR who saw it. Once the ref and the TMO saw the hand it was always going to be a card so of course they watched it a few times to make sure they got the right player.

shootermacg

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Why? Because in some situations it warrants a yellow and in others it's just a penalty.

I don't remember the Timu one so I can't comment. Foley's was a fluid situation and more instinctive. He decided penalty only. McGrath's was static and cynical. Not the same.

Once again, it wasn't the ref that spotted McGrath it was the AR who saw it. Once the ref and the TMO saw the hand it was always going to be a card so of course they watched it a few times to make sure they got the right player.

Yes we should all listen to this sage words of advice. Nobody knows the ref like they do in NZ, where they call him the 16th man I believe

Clegg

Australia weren't much different from last week I think. They defended brilliantly, Pocock still had a positive influence on the game and they were very fluid in attack at times.

But this week Beale was shockingly poor. He was weak in defence and his kicking, which was so accurate last week, was too long and didn't invite Folau to challenge for them. Last week he brought the ball to the line and released it to an oncoming runner. We sussed that out this week and his game went to pot. He's their main man in attack and we shut him down brilliantly imo.

Elvisjuice

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Why? Because in some situations it warrants a yellow and in others it's just a penalty.

I don't remember the Timu one so I can't comment. Foley's was a fluid situation and more instinctive. He decided penalty only. McGrath's was static and cynical. Not the same.

Once again, it wasn't the ref that spotted McGrath it was the AR who saw it. Once the ref and the TMO saw the hand it was always going to be a card so of course they watched it a few times to make sure they got the right player.

same as cocks **** last week , and he got off scot free

fitz

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Why? Because in some situations it warrants a yellow and in others it's just a penalty.

I don't remember the Timu one so I can't comment. Foley's was a fluid situation and more instinctive. He decided penalty only. McGrath's was static and cynical. Not the same.

Once again, it wasn't the ref that spotted McGrath it was the AR who saw it. Once the ref and the TMO saw the hand it was always going to be a card so of course they watched it a few times to make sure they got the right player.

No complaint about Jack's yellow, that was cynical and stupid, fully deserved.

But on Foley's... context is key.
It wasn't the first Aussie deliberate knock on, and came after a slew of penalties that the ref's warned them would result in a card for persistent infringement.
In isolation, Foley's can be viewed as one of those you see not carded, but there's no defending not giving a card when you take into account the previous infringements and warning.

Still laughing at Jack McGrath. What a brilliant as$hole.

flatty

Billy86 wrote: »

swiwi_ wrote: »

So you won...but the thread is still littered with complaints about the ref Are there any refs at all that Irish fans can endure?? Maybe the French lads seem to get slightly less stick on here is my impression.

Is a deliberate knock on a yellow card, though?

Because he essentially said to Hooper that no cards would be coming for it -just more warnings- by refusing to give any yellows when they kept doing it. About 90 seconds later, Ireland does it and he's up to the TMO before you can blink, busily and almost excitedly trying to find out who it was like a bloodhound sniffing the insides of a bag.

It's one thing to get the calls wrong in the heat of the moment or with how fast things can go. It's another to completely stop a game and make a very conscious and deliberate decision that "the thing I've been letting one team off with again and again despite seeing it (and telling all the players on the field as much) all game has now been done by the opposite team... and you better believe I'm going to hammer them for it!" He had plenty of time to think and reflect on just how wildly and deliberately inconsistent he was being, and carried on doing so anyway.

I shouldn't, but, if people are honest, there was a very irish sounding touch judge in the European final, who did exactly the same to the French side, excitedly and repeatedly informing the referee that they were offside in midfield. He had a critical bearing on the outcome. He may have been correct, but both sides were at it if so.
Irish rugby fans, in fact, sports fans in general are a terrible shower of whingers when they don't get what they want. As bad as any out there (I'm an Irish sports fan, and I find it embarrassing at times)

umop episdn

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Still laughing at Jack McGrath. What a brilliant as$hole.

Was he farting Ireland's Call again?

Yeah_Right

Elvisjuice wrote: »

same as cocks **** last week , and he got off scot free

No idea what you're talking about here.

shootermacg

flatty wrote: »

I shouldn't, but, if people are honest, there was a very irish sounding touch judge in the European final, who did exactly the same to the French side, excitedly and repeatedly informing the referee that they were offside in midfield. He had a critical bearing on the outcome. He may have been correct, but both sides were at it if so.
Irish rugby fans, in fact, sports fans in general are a terrible shower of whingers when they don't get what they want. As bad as any out there (I'm an Irish sports fan, and I find it embarrassing at times)

Using sweeping generalisations. colouring everyone in an admittedly small country as being some kind of single organism with a single opinion? Am I doing this right?

shootermacg

Deleted User wrote: »

Still laughing at Jack McGrath. What a brilliant as$hole.

Yeah, it'll go down in much the same way as the Handsome Rob in the ruck pic methinks.

Yeah_Right

fitz wrote: »

No complaint about Jack's yellow, that was cynical and stupid, fully deserved.

But on Foley's... context is key.
It wasn't the first Aussie deliberate knock on, and came after a slew of penalties that the ref's warned them would result in a card for persistent infringement.
In isolation, Foley's can be viewed as one of those you see not carded, but there's no defending not giving a card when you take into account the previous infringements and warning.

I haven't rewatched the game so I could be mixing up incidents. Apologies if I am. I remember the ref awarding a penalty to Ireland on around the halfway line and saying to Hooper something like " I warned you about infringing on your line a few minutes ago (before the Furlong try) but now we're seeing infringements out here. It needs to stop." Or something along those lines. Was that the Foley knock down? I do remember at the time thinking they were lucky to not lose someone.

Anthracite

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I haven't rewatched the game so I could be mixing up incidents. Apologies if I am. I remember the ref awarding a penalty to Ireland on around the halfway line and saying to Hooper something like " I warned you about infringing on your line a few minutes ago (before the Furlong try) but now we're seeing infringements out here. It needs to stop." Or something along those lines. Was that the Foley knock down? I do remember at the time thinking they were lucky to not lose someone.

Think that was the one. We were deep but had an overlap on our left until Aussie deliberate knock on number 3 killed it.

Christy42

flatty wrote: »

I shouldn't, but, if people are honest, there was a very irish sounding touch judge in the European final, who did exactly the same to the French side, excitedly and repeatedly informing the referee that they were offside in midfield. He had a critical bearing on the outcome. He may have been correct, but both sides were at it if so.
Irish rugby fans, in fact, sports fans in general are a terrible shower of whingers when they don't get what they want. As bad as any out there (I'm an Irish sports fan, and I find it embarrassing at times)

If you don't know if Racing were at it how do you know both sides were at it?

We discuss player's performances, can the same not be done about refs? Especially as it is an area that world rugby would be involved trying to fix. I doubt they care about Sexton's kicking as much as we do but if the game outpaces what they can get refs to do then they are in serious trouble.

The ref made some big calls and was inconsistent, people are going to complain about it. I missed the Bilbao match but if a judge only concentrated on one side's flaws then that two needs to be addressed. Certainly if Doyle was not considered impartial that would be a major deal.

I am not sure how a ref messing up a completely different match would support your point anyways? Surely it would support those pointing out the issues with refs these days. Most I have seen have tended to saying they have just been muck in general.

shootermacg