HKC Sold!!

kub

bk wrote: »

Huh, if the power goes down, Siemens will continue to work as a standard bells and lights alarm and will make lots of noise.

You will also get a notification in the app that your system is offline (quick polling).

Why don't you tell us what happens when HKC's service was down a few days ago?

Or what if a burglar uses a jammer? And HKC's 5 hours polling?

No prefect system, all trades offs, but Siemens comms and polling doesn't seem to be anything special.

Yes the Siemens system will keep running, I am very familiar with their equipment, I have been using it long before the internet.
I am referring specifically to notifications and correct notifications.


Free means that if the power is off you will be notified of a Comms issue, so if some low life decides to kick in your front door while the power is off, yes the system will activate, assuming it is set, but with Free you will not be notified of the actual break in.
Therefore the Comms issue could become a case of boy crying wolf until the unfortunate real event occurs.
Personally i would not like to be the installer there when the customer starts pointing fingers as to who is at fault and who the professional should be etc.


What is this about HKC's 5 hour polling time that is constantly referred to ?


Are you guys actually stating that minute 1 is when the comms fails and bang on 5 hours later there is a notification, is it ?


As you may or may not be aware professional installers, as per En50131 and indeed those of us who are not desperate for work, do what is known as a Risk Assessment. If a potential customer ticks a lot of boxes in the high risk category then the system that will be proposed will address such minor details as polling times etc.

If there is a chance of GSM blockers being used, then it is not too wise to go with a GSM option, is there ?
Obviously in this category, or in any of my own, I would not at all be recommending self notification via by a router only.
Explain away as been mentioned by others previously about the Free this that and the other and the Evil Demon that is HKC.
But I would not, as experience has shown me, people will always choose what is free, I find it is never the best option in reality as the old saying goes, you pay for what you get.
And these same people will be the very ones that will sue you if the worst thing happens to them.


As for Telefonica's issue the other day that caused Securecomm periodic outages over a few hours, well it was not a huge drama really, any new systems were capable of transmitting GSM faults via back up Routers, which they did. Therefore if those systems activated during this period then the activation would have still gotten out. Of course as you are aware as well PSTN diallers with FF and CID protocols can still transmit activations to central stations.


If you need any advice as to how to improve communications to professional monitoring stations to make them as close to perfect, please let me know.

kub

KoolKid wrote: »

I think you need to broaden your horizons before presuming that.
The Vanderbilt V2 portal is way ahead of anything there regarding engineer functions.
I could rattle off all the functions it has all night but you still wouldn't see it because it's not what you want to use.
Even the GSD Portal has more features than HKCs app or Smart link which looks like something from Windows 98.

Not what i want to use, Vanderbilt?

Could i query please as to how you could presume that?

kub

KoolKid wrote: »

I think we have been seeing some nice balance in this thread recently.
Is everyone questioning HKC driven by hatred???
There's also a lot of people questioning on the FB page as you know. Will you be accusing all them of hatred. ��
HKC, GSD, Vanderbilt, UTC etc are all just company's not people. I find it strange that you take any criticism of a company so personally and accuse people of hate because they choose to look at alternative options in the market.
Anyway I suppose that is just an example of how some people push the product they want to use.
As for the free options vs paid.. All those on the free service weren't affected by a second major outage the other day.
My phone wasn't hopping all day with irate customers wondering why their alarms were not communicating. I'd say that was scary for some if this happened after an alarm event. Even scarier if it was a monitored system that went without a response.
The thing about duel path communication that is being sold to customers is that it's still going through a single path that is the services like Securecom.
Anyway, it's good to see all these issues being raised. It gives posters a good view of both sides of the differences between these services.

No, I just find you constantly knock HKC constantly on boards.ie, I have no idea on FB as I have you blocked there.
Some other lads on FB do not use HKC but i can tell you for sure, they certainly have not got the same level of vile you have for that company.


I know well the manufacturing companies as you have kindly listed above are not individuals, I am well aware of that and what I was referring to was you as an individual here on boards constantly knocking HKC.


My phone was not hopping the other day with irate customers, I don't have irate customers, they appreciate quality.
I trust you are being a bit dramatic there especially when the company you work for only push Vanderbilt and GSD, so how indeed could your phone be hopping ?


Also how can you assume that all HKC systems being sold as dual path are going through Securecomm???

kub

KoolKid wrote: »

For the record I am not I am not commercially aligned with any systems or manufacturer.
I have lots of HKC systems installed. I have NEVER stated I don't install them
As I have have said over and over there is no system that's perfect for everything. Different options and different features for different customers needs and wants.
Imagine a world with only iPhones and no Android.
Only Fords and no Mazda.
Only Sky and no Virgin Media
Only Burger King no McDonald's

Choice is great and different people have different tastes wants and needs from a product.
If you come up with a brand that suits everyone you will be a billionaire or trillionaire.

It seems there is more blindness by love than hate.

So if someone rang your GSD friends and asked about installers in Dublin, they would not mention you, No ?
I suppose the company you work for has lots of HKC systems installed, most probably ones that do not use Securecomm as it is obvious from posts which you have put up here, you would not dream of using that. So those HKC systems must be old ones now.


This is a Home Security Forum, therefore house alarms are one of the main thing on these threads, therefore most homes are the same. Of course your knowledge of HKC's range of equipment now might be somewhat limited but i can say from a domestic system perspective, they have everything covered so I think that is as close to perfection as one can get.


You mentioned above the subject of competition, it is great, it keeps companies on their toes, to do their best for their customers. That is another reason I choose the quality that I find with HKC.
No silly call backs for silly warranty issues caused by shoddy equipment.

kub

KoolKid wrote: »

I think you need to broaden your horizons before presuming that.
The Vanderbilt V2 portal is way ahead of anything there regarding engineer functions.
I could rattle off all the functions it has all night but you still wouldn't see it because it's not what you want to use.
Even the GSD Portal has more features than HKCs app or Smart link which looks like something from Windows 98.

But then, Vanderbilt simply do not have the same range of equipment that HKC do in the domestic market.
So how could I use a Vanderbilt App on a HKC system?
As soon as Vanderbilt have the same range as HKC for the domestic realm, then I will consider them and I look forward to broadening my horizons then.
But in the mean time, the HKC App will do just fine for me and my customers.

bk

kub wrote: »

Yes the Siemens system will keep running, I am very familiar with their equipment, I have been using it long before the internet.
I am referring specifically to notifications and correct notifications.


Free means that if the power is off you will be notified of a Comms issue, so if some low life decides to kick in your front door while the power is off, yes the system will activate, assuming it is set, but with Free you will not be notified of the actual break in.

Exactly, you will be notified quickly (about 1 minute) that the system is offline and take action. Call a neighbour to check what is going on (even just ask them can they hear if your alarm is going off) or jump in a car and go home to check on it.

That also ignores the fact that you can easily add a GSM module for dual path comms to Siemens and other panels if you so desire it.

After all the ideal setup, where money was no obstacle, would be dual path + quick polling.

BTW My preferred solution to the power out problem would be IP cameras overlooking your garden and where power comes into your home. Would allow you to check what happened just before the power went out. Was there someone in your garden 30 seconds before then you know what was up.

Also has added advantages of helping to secure your garden and car in the drive way and option to talk to callers at the door without opening it or even when out. Helps defeat a very common way many burglaries happen.

kub wrote: »

Therefore the Comms issue could become a case of boy crying wolf until the unfortunate real event occurs.
Personally i would not like to be the installer there when the customer starts pointing fingers as to who is at fault and who the professional should be etc.

Power outages really aren't that common and you can always double check with a neighbour if it is effecting an entire area or not.

I've Logitech Circle cameras for over 2 years now. They have 5 minute polling. They have been offline only once in that time.

kub wrote: »

What is this about HKC's 5 hour polling time that is constantly referred to ?

Are you guys actually stating that minute 1 is when the comms fails and bang on 5 hours later there is a notification, is it ?

No, but 5 hours or hell even 1 hour isn't even close to being acceptable. Someone could break in and clean out every stick of furniture in that time.

That is why the ideal really would be dual path + quick polling + cloud IP cams.

kub wrote: »

As you may or may not be aware professional installers, as per En50131 and indeed those of us who are not desperate for work, do what is known as a Risk Assessment. If a potential customer ticks a lot of boxes in the high risk category then the system that will be proposed will address such minor details as polling times etc.

I'm genuinely shocked that you thinking polling times is a minor detail :eek:

I'm aware that only the higher EN grades require 1 minute polling, as would typically used by a jewellery store and that grade 2 as is usually used in homes only needs 5 hour polling.

But that is what I mean by sticking dogmatically to a standard, while falling behind where the rest of the market is going.

I've a SmartThings hub that cost €60 and a Logitech Circle for €70 that have 5 minute or less polling. And a close to €1,000 professionally installed system can only do 5 hours shows that there is something seriously wrong.

Quick and frequent polling is cheap and easy to do when your comms path is over wired broadband. I can see why you would want much less frequent polling over GSM channels due to high data charges of mobile services.

But that is why it is better to use wifi/broadband as the primary path. With GSM just an infrequently used backup channel. You can then do frequent, cheap and easy polling. It helps cover all attack vectors.

kub wrote: »

If there is a chance of GSM blockers being used, then it is not too wise to go with a GSM option, is there ?
Obviously in this category, or in any of my own, I would not at all be recommending self notification via by a router only.

GSM blockers aren't expensive, they are cheap and easy to come by. If someone is willing to cut your power, then it is as easy for them to have one in their pocket and then quick polling becomes important.

kub wrote: »

Explain away as been mentioned by others previously about the Free this that and the other and the Evil Demon that is HKC.
But I would not, as experience has shown me, people will always choose what is free, I find it is never the best option in reality as the old saying goes, you pay for what you get.
And these same people will be the very ones that will sue you if the worst thing happens to them.

Seriously, clam down! No one is calling HKC evil!!

If HKC and installers cared so much about their customers, then why for years were they selling systems with simple voice or text dialers over PSTN, with zero polling and charging €150 per year for monitoring?

A simple snip of the phone cable and the monitoring station would know no better. Yet installers were still quiet happy to sell those sort of systems and take €150 a year off people, without telling them of the glaring security hole that every burglar knew.

Still loads of systems like that all over the country. In fact both my two sisters and parents systems are like that!

And yes these are HKC systems installed by PSA registered folks.

As is my HKC system, which was installed by a PSA folk. It was installed with no monitoring, no external bell box and the panel placed directly 1m above the keypad in the hall near the door :rolleyes:

So don't start with me about risk assessment nonsense.

Lots of people still just get a basic bells and lights alarm installed with no monitoring. It is fine, the thing most people probably worry about is someone breaking in downstairs when your asleep upstairs and these cover them for this worry just fine.

The comms stuff is an enhancement for when your out of the house.

My opinion is free app monitoring over broadband has become the new norm for the most basic systems, replacing the old dumb bells only systems.

GSM backup for backup comms is then onboard as an optional extra for a little extra money.

Professionally monitored for a little extra if you want.

Cloud IP cams storage for a little more.

Your still paying, but all optional. Every alarm system in the US now looks like this and it will come here too, I'm certain of it.

And all I'm saying is that I hope HKC make this transition too, as they have done in the past.

Afterall they use to do just monitoring over crappy single path PSTN with no polling at all. They then started doing just GSM monitoring. They have now at least transitioned to doing dual path wifi + GSM backup. Great, they seem to be listening too us.

And it looks like they already have all the hardware to make the next transition. Just sell the GSM-wifi module as default with all panels and make the wifi monitoring free, with GSM an optional backup and they have the same as what is the norm in the US.

davidconroy46

I would fit a lot of Hkc , dual path or not they are a fab sysytem. They got were they are today because they moved with the times. Aritech/ utc we call them today were tops but they fell behind because changing there name was a big thing, putting there eggs in other baskets. Only after they done aeay with the cs250/235 did they start moving again. I did like them but not anymore. Seimen/ Gsd would be the 2 i prefare along side Hkc. Gsd is great for a change over from Astec.

kub

KoolKid wrote: »

I think we have been seeing some nice balance in this thread recently.
Is everyone questioning HKC driven by hatred???
There's also a lot of people questioning on the FB page as you know. Will you be accusing all them of hatred. ��
HKC, GSD, Vanderbilt, UTC etc are all just company's not people. I find it strange that you take any criticism of a company so personally and accuse people of hate because they choose to look at alternative options in the market.
Anyway I suppose that is just an example of how some people push the product they want to use.
As for the free options vs paid.. All those on the free service weren't affected by a second major outage the other day.
My phone wasn't hopping all day with irate customers wondering why their alarms were not communicating. I'd say that was scary for some if this happened after an alarm event. Even scarier if it was a monitored system that went without a response.
The thing about duel path communication that is being sold to customers is that it's still going through a single path that is the services like Securecom.
Anyway, it's good to see all these issues being raised. It gives posters a good view of both sides of the differences between these services.

Speaking of irate customers, the company you work for must be getting those on a continuous basis so considering the issues with ' one of the manufacturers you always recommend'


Would you like to tell us more about GSM failure alerts in the middle of the night and when the electricity goes how the system has to be reconnected to the customers Wifi?


At that rate warranty calls must be costing the company you work with an absolute fortune and i suppose customers must be wondering about the quality of the equipment.

KoolKid

No issues with that or with customers. Baffling why you are constantly more concerned with attacking me personally when you get upset because some people disagree with your option on a particular manufacturer.
Anyway as you are so interested in the company I work for we have1000s of happy customers with the system they wanted.
No issues with comms as ours have IP back up also.
Speaking of comms problems..
As an installer I would be more concerned when people's apps and monitoring goes down for many hours with no explanation.
A break in there or a panic alarm not received would get you more than an irate customer.
That would be more likely to get you sued as you mentioned earlier.

altor

kub wrote: »

Speaking of irate customers, the company you work for must be getting those on a continuous basis so considering the issues with ' one of the manufacturers you always recommend'


Would you like to tell us more about GSM failure alerts in the middle of the night and when the electricity goes how the system has to be reconnected to the customers Wifi?


At that rate warranty calls must be costing the company you work with an absolute fortune and i suppose customers must be wondering about the quality of the equipment.

From what I hear call backs are the norm.
You just have to look at the installers Facebook page to see the issues they have.

kub

bk wrote: »

Exactly, you will be notified quickly (about 1 minute) that the system is offline and take action. Call a neighbour to check what is going on (even just ask them can they hear if your alarm is going off) or jump in a car and go home to check on it.

That also ignores the fact that you can easily add a GSM module for dual path comms to Siemens and other panels if you so desire it.

After all the ideal setup, where money was no obstacle, would be dual path + quick polling.

BTW My preferred solution to the power out problem would be IP cameras overlooking your garden and where power comes into your home. Would allow you to check what happened just before the power went out. Was there someone in your garden 30 seconds before then you know what was up.

Also has added advantages of helping to secure your garden and car in the drive way and option to talk to callers at the door without opening it or even when out. Helps defeat a very common way many burglaries happen.

But why would I add a GSM unit to a Vanderbilt system when i rearly use these in domestic installations?
The HKC system as i have already mentioned ticks all boxes with regard to domestic installations and that has World GPRS and back up Wifi / Lan on the one unit for notification.
So in a situation of a power cut here HKC would win hands down as no one would need to panic and jump into a car or disturb a neighbour because if there was a burglary during a power cut the system would still be working as normal and would have the capability to transmit Intruder signals.


As for CCTV or anything else, that is beside the point for now.

bk wrote: »

Power outages really aren't that common and you can always double check with a neighbour if it is effecting an entire area or not.

I've Logitech Circle cameras for over 2 years now. They have 5 minute polling. They have been offline only once in that time.

You cannot just say that about power outages, as i am writing this I have the ESB power App open on my phone. It is a calm day and we have:


Power cuts in: Cong, 39 customers affected.
Claregalway, 11 customers affected.
Birr, 31 customers affected.
Ballinderry, 87 customers affected
Finea, 24 customers affected.
Grange (by Sutton ), 59 customers affected.
Sallynoggin Road, 2058 customers affected.
Kyletaun, 20 customers affected.
Goresbridge, 41 customers affected.
Graigue, 103 customers affected.


So is that a couple of hundred people there who have free notification and worried about whether or not their alarms might be activating.
Hopefully a lot of them have some payed for options and have peace of mind.

bk wrote: »

No, but 5 hours or hell even 1 hour isn't even close to being acceptable. Someone could break in and clean out every stick of furniture in that time.

That is why the ideal really would be dual path + quick polling + cloud IP cams.
[QUOTE\]


The average domestic burglary takes only 2 to 3 minutes, polling does not matter, it is the capability of the alarm system to activate and notify, is what matters.
A properly professionally installed system will complete this task.

bk wrote: »

I'm genuinely shocked that you thinking polling times is a minor detail :eek:

I'm aware that only the higher EN grades require 1 minute polling, as would typically used by a jewellery store and that grade 2 as is usually used in homes only needs 5 hour polling.

But that is what I mean by sticking dogmatically to a standard, while falling behind where the rest of the market is going.

I've a SmartThings hub that cost €60 and a Logitech Circle for €70 that have 5 minute or less polling. And a close to €1,000 professionally installed system can only do 5 hours shows that there is something seriously wrong.

Quick and frequent polling is cheap and easy to do when your comms path is over wired broadband. I can see why you would want much less frequent polling over GSM channels due to high data charges of mobile services.

But that is why it is better to use wifi/broadband as the primary path. With GSM just an infrequently used backup channel. You can then do frequent, cheap and easy polling. It helps cover all attack vectors.
[QUOTE\]


As i have already mentioned this is a Home Security Forum, therefore as this is an Irish site and as it is in the EU then we comply with EN standards. That EN standard is EN50131 and I have my doubts that people in SmartThings or Logitech worry much about having to comply with that particular standard.
Again it is the capacity of the system to transmit signals in the event of an activation is what matters, not polling. Polling ticks boxes but they will not tell you your home is being broken into.


I am surprised actually you brought standards into this, does that Yale toy alarm system which you mentioned you were installing earlier in this thread comply with EN50131?

bk wrote: »

GSM blockers aren't expensive, they are cheap and easy to come by. If someone is willing to cut your power, then it is as easy for them to have one in their pocket and then quick polling becomes important.
[QUOTE\]


You are aware I trust that this is a public forum and anyone could have read that?
Is there any other pointers you would like to give thieves ?


As a matter of fact what becomes important in that eventuality is the Risk Assessment component of EN50131 and the system as installed should reflect that and therefore if they are going to all that trouble, then any properly professionally installed system would still be capable of transmitting signals from that premises.

bk wrote: »

Seriously, clam down! No one is calling HKC evil!!

If HKC and installers cared so much about their customers, then why for years were they selling systems with simple voice or text dialers over PSTN, with zero polling and charging €150 per year for monitoring?

A simple snip of the phone cable and the monitoring station would know no better. Yet installers were still quiet happy to sell those sort of systems and take €150 a year off people, without telling them of the glaring security hole that every burglar knew.

Still loads of systems like that all over the country. In fact both my two sisters and parents systems are like that!

And yes these are HKC systems installed by PSA registered folks.

As is my HKC system, which was installed by a PSA folk. It was installed with no monitoring, no external bell box and the panel placed directly 1m above the keypad in the hall near the door :rolleyes:

So don't start with me about risk assessment nonsense.
[QUOTE\]


Calm I am perfectly calm, I am referring to how one particular installer hates HKC so much.


Sorry but i am laughing at your comment about HKC for years selling systems that could only send voice and text over PSTN diallers, look I don't know how old you are but I trust you are aware that broadband was not around always.
Now with regard to guys cutting phone lines, well here again, homes of people which made this a possibility had systems installed that reflected the risk and even if the phone line was cut, then the systems were still capable of transmitting alarm signals.


With regard to your own system, well here you are now bitching about it, it is a pity you did not take that up with the installer at the time.
Can you remember what you payed for it?

Should you have any issues, just get onto his certification body, you will find their details on the cert he gave you, or did he ?


If you have any issues about Risk Assessments and find them nonsense, then please lets not discuss standards any more.



That was what was all was available on low risk systems at the time.
There was no such thing as polling, no broadband and no Wifi either and we all managed grand too.

bk wrote: »

Lots of people still just get a basic bells and lights alarm installed with no monitoring. It is fine, the thing most people probably worry about is someone breaking in downstairs when your asleep upstairs and these cover them for this worry just fine.

The comms stuff is an enhancement for when your out of the house.

My opinion is free app monitoring over broadband has become the new norm for the most basic systems, replacing the old dumb bells only systems.

GSM backup for backup comms is then onboard as an optional extra for a little extra money.

Professionally monitored for a little extra if you want.

Cloud IP cams storage for a little more.

Your still paying, but all optional. Every alarm system in the US now looks like this and it will come here too, I'm certain of it.

And all I'm saying is that I hope HKC make this transition too, as they have done in the past.

Afte rall they use to do just monitoring over crappy single path PSTN with no polling at all. They then started doing just GSM monitoring. They have now at least transitioned to doing dual path wifi + GSM backup. Great, they seem to be listening too us.

And it looks like they already have all the hardware to make the next transition. Just sell the GSM-wifi module as default with all panels and make the wifi monitoring free, with GSM an optional backup and they have the same as what is the norm in the US.

Do you think that everything in the US is cool and that we always copy it? Not exactly a Utopian society and God knows they have their own problems.



Are you aware that we are one of the few countries in the world that still use inertia shock sensors in domestic alarm systems?
I hope that we do not go down that road of contacts and beams as the way forward. I know my domestic customers rather have their alarms switched on while they are in their homes and can move around unrestricted within, meanwhile should some low life decide to attempt to break into their homes the system will activate before said low life even gains access.


As for the lots of people just going for basic systems without notification, well it is not better than our society is getting, it is worse and I for one educate my own customers to go for some notification option and they do so we do not really fit systems anymore without some form of notification.


Again, you are aware that the crappy single path PSTN was as good as you could get pre broadband and mobile phones ?
Well other than radio communicators of course and i bet you did not know that we could set all these units up for test calls with alarm monitoring centres back then?
But as per my mention already about polling and indeed test calls, these are not the things that matter when the break in occurs.


So to put us back on topic, I hope also that HKC go down the route of integrating with home automation etc, at least then they will probably be the only ones with systems that may comply with EN50131.
Rather than computer nerds designing security systems.

kub

KoolKid wrote: »

No issues with that or with customers. Baffling why you are constantly more concerned with attacking me personally when you get upset because some people disagree with your option on a particular manufacturer.
Anyway as you are so interested in the company I work for we have1000s of happy customers with the system they wanted.
No issues with comms as ours have IP back up also.
Speaking of comms problems..
As an installer I would be more concerned when people's apps and monitoring goes down for many hours with no explanation.
A break in there or a panic alarm not received would get you more than an irate customer.
That would be more likely to get you sued as you mentioned earlier.

Well see, i take exception at your constant ' one trick pony' comment.
HKC are head and shoulders above any other manufacturer for domestic Intruder alarm systems in this country.
End of story.
Now just to get your facts right there, during the week there were intermittent faults, not a full break down that lasted hours, so lets keep the facts right please.
There is very interesting technical experience available to us as you are only too aware on the FB page.
Guys are straight and tell it as it is, I know an installer personally who had a terrible ordeal with one of the manufacturers you recommend, so much so he is not using them anymore.
Oh and this guy knows this game inside out so he is far from inexperienced.

KoolKid

kub wrote: »

The HKC system as i have already mentioned ticks all boxes with regard to domestic installations and that has World GPRS and back up Wifi / Lan on the one unit for notification.
So in a situation of a power cut here HKC would win hands down as no one would need to panic and jump into a car or disturb a neighbor because if there was a burglary during a power cut the system would still be working as normal and would have the capability to transmit Intruder signals.

Ticks all the boxs in your opinion, obviousally because that's the one you want to sell the customer along with recurring subscriptions.
As you can see from reading through some threads that is not everyone's opinion.People have the right to choose & be offered choice no matter what product or service they are purchasing.
You are constantly making promotional post about how perfect this HKC equipment & service is.How reliable this duel path service is & how useless everything else is.
Where were all these people left during the week when the service was totally down for many hours?
What notification would they have got?

kub wrote: »

You cannot just say that about power outages, as i am writing this I have the ESB power App open on my phone. It is a calm day and we have:


Power cuts in: Cong, 39 customers affected.
Claregalway, 11 customers affected.
Birr, 31 customers affected.
Ballinderry, 87 customers affected
Finea, 24 customers affected.
Grange (by Sutton ), 59 customers affected.
Sallynoggin Road, 2058 customers affected.
Kyletaun, 20 customers affected.
Goresbridge, 41 customers affected.
Graigue, 103 customers affected.


So is that a couple of hundred people there who have free notification and worried about whether or not their alarms might be activating.
Hopefully a lot of them have some payed for options and have peace of mind.

Again , how many 100s of people were in the same boat when Securecom was down? Also not for the 1st time as I am sure you are aware.
Speaking as an installer to be perfectly honest all this whole power fail threat is a fudge to sell the service & product to the customer you want to sell.
In almost 30 years in the industry I have only once seen power being cut in an attempted break in. I have never had a single customer broken into during a power cut.
Still amazes me how all of a sudden all those systems we were installing for all those years are suddenly useless. Voice dialler USLESSS, Text Dialler USELESS
(Yet HKC were happily selling that feature for years)

kub wrote: »

That is why the ideal really would be dual path + quick polling + cloud IP cams.

If quick polling is ideal then I presume you find 5 hours unacceptable,

kub wrote: »

Polling ticks boxes but they will not tell you your home is being broken into.

It will tell you more than being notified of a total comms failure 5 hours later.

kub wrote: »

Calm I am perfectly calm, I am referring to how one particular installer hates HKC so much.

So again someone who doesn't agree with your opinion of one particular brand hates that company.?
Its a business, a brand, not a person. Why do you constantly take it all so personal.
I don't hate anyone or anything. I just don't agree with your view of one company.

kub wrote: »

Well see, i take exception at your constant ' one trick pony' comment.
HKC are head and shoulders above any other manufacturer for domestic Intruder alarm systems in this country.
End of story.

Again in your opinion.
Is that promotional line the answer for everything.

kub wrote: »

Now just to get your facts right there, during the week there were intermittent faults, not a full break down that lasted hours, so lets keep the facts right please.
There is very interesting technical experience available to us as you are only too aware on the FB page.

The FB page also tells a different story than that.
The explanation.. Oh yes. A network problem?
As they are international SIM & are backed up by IP it must have been every mobile network & every broadband provider.
Amazing, not one of our monitoring customers on International sims got any comms down.Neither did any of them on their free broadband service.
You don't always get what you pay for I guess

kub wrote: »

Guys are straight and tell it as it is, I know an installer personally who had a terrible ordeal with one of the manufacturers you recommend, so much so he is not using them anymore.
Oh and this guy knows this game inside out so he is far from inexperienced.

If you go through installers you will find someone who has had terrible experiences with any brand you can think of. In fact that would be true about just about any product or service.
Have a look over the Talk To forums.People have issues with different providers every day. Do you see those who think those company's are great attacking everyone else & claiming hatred.

People here are simply giving opinions & comparing options. Some good information for all the end users here hopefully.

kub

KoolKid wrote: »

Ticks all the boxs in your opinion, obviousally because that's the one you want to sell the customer along with recurring subscriptions.
As you can see from reading through some threads that is not everyone's opinion.People have the right to choose & be offered choice no matter what product or service they are purchasing.
You are constantly making promotional post about how perfect this HKC equipment & service is.How reliable this duel path service is & how useless everything else is.
Where were all these people left during the week when the service was totally down for many hours?
What notification would they have got?

Not just in my opinion but in that of hundreds of installers in this country, they must be doing something right when you consider their market share and the fact that a respected multinational has taken over HKC.


If people have, as you mentioned, the right to choose & be offered choice no matter what product or service, then how come you only ever mention Vanderbilt and GSD in your replies to people who come on here looking for information on new installations.
Surely you can see it is you are the one who is guilty there, i mean why is it that you do not mention as an option the manufacturer with the biggest market share?
Instead you actually warn people off, how is it you put it again?


Oh here some of your posts:


Most of the modern systems out there offer self monitoring over IP for free.
GSD and Siemens Vanderbilt are the 2 most popular with us.
Siemens Vanderbilt would also have the option of a SIM back up where you could use your own sim on a pay as you go basis.
Be careful not to get tied into any long term commitments that are going to tie you to one provider for the life of the system. Those costs are only going to go one way.



Another :


The GSD i1070 is a great panel worth looking at also.
Has Wireless devices & WiFi/GPRS options for apps & remote access.


And Another:


+1 on the Vanderbilt Siemens systems.
We use both them and GSD both very reliable & popular due to their options of free apps with no annual /monthly charges.


Not once have you mentioned HKC which is very strange considering their market share.


As for your comment about charges only going one way, you were right there, they went DOWN during the week.


In none of those posts as i have quoted there, did you advise anyone as to the shortcomings of these Free options in the event of a power cut. That is not very professional of you, neither is it fair to people who do not know any better.



Before you bring in your usual bull about polling times, these things do not have anything to do with actually reporting alarm activations which are not possible with Free in the event of a power cut.
Which we had today an ordinary day, calm weather and almost 2,500 premises, were without electricity at that time today when i checked the ESB power App, when one of your buddies mistakenly mentioned that power cuts were a rear occurrence.


No KoolKid I am not on here making promotional posts for HKC constantly, I just say it as it is.
They are the best in the domestic realm, that is all about it.

KoolKid wrote: »

Again , how many 100s of people were in the same boat when Securecom was down? Also not for the 1st time as I am sure you are aware.
Speaking as an installer to be perfectly honest all this whole power fail threat is a fudge to sell the service & product to the customer you want to sell.
In almost 30 years in the industry I have only once seen power being cut in an attempted break in. I have never had a single customer broken into during a power cut.
Still amazes me how all of a sudden all those systems we were installing for all those years are suddenly useless. Voice dialler USLESSS, Text Dialler USELESS
(Yet HKC were happily selling that feature for years)

I know that you are somehow limited as to HKC and Securecomm, but Securecomm was not down at all at anytime this week.


This power failure thing is a fudge, is it? almost 2,500 premises today without power, that is a fact not a fudge.
Of course that does not suit your Free agenda, Free cannot transmit an alarm activation in the event of a power cut.
So that makes 2 of us with almost 30 years service, so with all your experience over that time you have no issues in installing systems that are incapable of transmitting alarm conditions during power cuts.
Even as bad as Phone Watch are and as you do go on about them, even their systems can transmit alarm conditions in the event of a power cut.


So in your own experience you have never seen a customer being broken into during a power cut, well that is only you, I bet nationwide Garda crime reports would state otherwise.



You must have misread my previous post, the poster which I was responding to had rubbished PSTN lines, voice diallers etc.
To be fair to HKC they saw an Eircom service at the time that was not really being utilised by consumers and they introduced Text diallers which did not cost people anything other than retaining their land lines.
Of course when Eircom discontinued this texting service HKC stepped in and offered a solution at a very reasonable rate.

KoolKid wrote: »

If quick polling is ideal then I presume you find 5 hours unacceptable,







It will tell you more than being notified of a total comms failure 5 hours later.

Oh that old peach again, As i have previously mentioned your Free = No Notification of Alarm activation in the event of a power cut.
With the HKC option, you do of course get notified, not only of the Mains failure but of any subsequent alarm activation while the power is off.

KoolKid wrote: »

So again someone who doesn't agree with your opinion of one particular brand hates that company.?
Its a business, a brand, not a person. Why do you constantly take it all so personal.
I don't hate anyone or anything. I just don't agree with your view of one company.

So if that is the case, how come you never ever say anything positive about HKC ?
I don't take it personal at all KoolKid, it is your good self that is portraying your issues with HKC.
Are you sure you don't hate anyone or anything?
Interesting all the same though how you cannot you cannot agree with the success of HKC, their market share and indeed their success.

KoolKid wrote: »

The FB page also tells a different story than that.
The explanation.. Oh yes. A network problem?
As they are international SIM & are backed up by IP it must have been every mobile network & every broadband provider.
Amazing, not one of our monitoring customers on International sims got any comms down.Neither did any of them on their free broadband service.
You don't always get what you pay for I guess

Ah see there, you cleared up your own confusion from earlier in this post, there was not indeed any issue with Securecomm so, thank you for indirectly acknowledging that.
Network is right, well done you.
Telefonica had some issues, not all manufacturers use Telefonica therefore not all manufacturers would have been affected.
There were also issues with some retailers payment terminals during these brief outages also
You are right, you don't always get what you pay for, especially if your alarm activates after a power cut, you will not be notified of it with your infamous Free options

KoolKid wrote: »

If you go through installers you will find someone who has had terrible experiences with any brand you can think of. In fact that would be true about just about any product or service.
Have a look over the Talk To forums.People have issues with different providers every day. Do you see those who think those company's are great attacking everyone else & claiming hatred.

People here are simply giving opinions & comparing options. Some good information for all the end users here hopefully.

You are bang on there, indeed I have been through a few manufacturers myself and you know what, i just keep coming back to HKC.
This has taught me at this stage, what is the point anymore, I might as well stay with the best.
See with your around here you are not really giving end users all options that are available to them, you only ever mention 2 manufacturers as portrayed earlier.

Stoner

We are getting a bit heated here. I've possibly added to it. So let's keep some of the personal stuff out of the thread please.

Overall it's a good read though if you pick your way through the spats.

KoolKid

kub wrote: »

Not just in my opinion but in that of hundreds of installers in this country, they must be doing something right when you consider their market share and the fact that a respected multinational has taken over HKC.

It is also the opinion of hundreds more who choose to use other systems.

kub wrote: »

If people have, as you mentioned, the right to choose & be offered choice no matter what product or service, then how come you only ever mention Vanderbilt and GSD in your replies to people who come on here looking for information on new installations.

You mean as opposed to offing just 1 system and constantly posting sounding like a commercial break for that brand.
If people choose to want any system I will install it for them. As BK said earlier some do not offer that choice. Many don't even inform customers of the options available.

kub wrote: »

Surely you can see it is you are the one who is guilty there, i mean why is it that you do not mention as an option the manufacturer with the biggest market share?
Instead you actually warn people off,

I would advice people of the options & how some systems would tie them to subscriptions for the life of the system if they want to continue to use their apps.
Those are the facts of it. When it comes to Phonewatch you warn people off in the same way from getting tied into something.
The difference is you sell one & you don't like the other. Which by the was also has a large market share. Funny that.

kub wrote: »

In none of those posts as i have quoted there, did you advise anyone as to the shortcomings of these Free options in the event of a power cut. That is not very professional of you, neither is it fair to people who do not know any better.

People are well aware of the differences and are able to choose for themselves.
Yet again you seem more concerned about attacking me /my business practices than anything else.
Your agenda is pretty clear to all at this stange.

kub wrote: »

Before you bring in your usual bull about polling times, these things do not have anything to do with actually reporting alarm activations which are not possible with Free in the event of a power cut.
Which we had today an ordinary day, calm weather and almost 2,500 premises, were without electricity at that time today when i checked the ESB power App, when one of your buddies mistakenly mentioned that power cuts were a rear occurrence.

Amazing how something that HKCs offing is so poor at is irrelevant.

kub wrote: »

I know that you are somehow limited as to HKC and Securecomm, but Securecomm was not down at all at anytime this week.

But yet lots of peoples HKC alarms were. Thats very concerning don't you think.

kub wrote: »

To be fair to HKC they saw an Eircom service at the time that was not really being utilised by consumers and they introduced Text diallers which did not cost people anything other than retaining their land lines.

But did you not notify customers of how useless this service was as it relied on a single pair of wires coming from your house & you wouldn't get any notifications if the line was down?

kub wrote: »

Oh that old peach again, As i have previously mentioned your Free = No Notification of Alarm activation in the event of a power cut.
With the HKC option, you do of course get notified, not only of the Mains failure but of any subsequent alarm activation while the power is off.

Free will notify you of the broadband being down. Also of a smash & grab scenario if the connection goes down after an alarm event or entry start.

kub wrote: »

So if that is the case, how come you never ever say anything positive about HKC ?
I don't take it personal at all KoolKid, it is your good self that is portraying your issues with HKC.

So why do you get so aggressive when anyone says anything bad about HKC.
You also constantly feel the need to come at me personally about who I work for & my work practices.

kub wrote: »

Are you sure you don't hate anyone or anything?

I have said so . No whether you want to believe me or not is up to you.
If you don't I'm sure you would have no problem calling me a liar.

kub wrote: »

Interesting all the same though how you cannot you cannot agree with the success of HKC, their market share and indeed their success.

I have never said they weren't successful.Do they feel the need to be told their loved.:)
In all forms of business there are successful company's out there. But there is no company, no matter how successful, that is right for everyone.

kub wrote: »

See with your around here you are not really giving end users all options that are available to them, you only ever mention 2 manufacturers as portrayed earlier.

Again as opposed to promoting the one all the time.
They have all ready go the information about HKC & they are looking for alternatives.
In work,Thats because in most cases they are calling me because their installers refuse to sell them what they want or they left their previous installer for not giving them all the information.Likewise they have had some quotes and were wary of the company because they were only pushing the one product.
I would be the same, no matter what product or service I was pricing to be honest.
You have never been on a site survey with me. HKC is regularly discussed as an option, but usually the customer hasn't been given all the facts to make up their mind.

All the way through this thread it reads the same.
You like one system, some other posters like different options. Thats life.
Why not just accept peoples different opinions instead of getting aggressive, personal & trying to undermine everything you don't agree with.

kub

KoolKid wrote: »

It is also the opinion of hundreds more who choose to use other systems.

That may be the case, I hope the vast majority of them do not have your Free solutions in place though because if their homes are hit during a power cut then your recommendation is compromised. See I know with the manufacturer I choose, that the system will still provide notifications of activations after power cuts, your Free options cannot do that.

KoolKid wrote: »

You mean as opposed to offing just 1 system and constantly posting sounding like a commercial break for that brand.
If people choose to want any system I will install it for them. As BK said earlier some do not offer that choice. Many don't even inform customers of the options available.

The name HKC must really upset you, well I am sorry KoolKid but they do tick all the boxes in regard to domestic installations. Anything else is a compromise and that is a fact.
Now just to be clear here, I am not constantly posting and sounding like an advert for that brand, I do not really have the time to be on here constantly and secondly, HKC sells itself.


If a potential client wants another manufacturers system, then of course we will install them, but I will draw the line at people relying on their own routers for notifications, that as you know will fail in a power cut and therefore knock out a vital part of the systems function in the event of an intrusion during a power cut.
Now if you are happy to advise people and think that is good enough, well you go and do what you do, I will go and do what I do.


So as HKC don't have that Free option and I don't agree with Free, would you please point out what other possible thing that Vanderbilt ( other than a nicer keypad ) and GSD or others have in the domestic realm that is better than HKC.
I would like to know that please.

KoolKid wrote: »

I would advice people of the options & how some systems would tie them to subscriptions for the life of the system if they want to continue to use their apps.
Those are the facts of it. When it comes to Phonewatch you warn people off in the same way from getting tied into something.
The difference is you sell one & you don't like the other. Which by the was also has a large market share. Funny that.

Well with respect, here on threads you do not offer all options so i take from that perhaps you just rattle off your usual 2.
Now what is this about subscriptions for the life of the system ?


This is one of these things that is confusing me, so you might come back to me on that one please.


Now I see you mentioned Phonewatch, I trust you are aware and I am surprised I need to point this out but:


There is a huge difference between HKC and the Honeywell Panel which Phonewatch / Sector use.


The Honeywell panel is locked into the Phonewatch monitoring station as it has a protocol which only they use and only their equipment can understand.


This is not the case with HKC, they use common protocols and any company can take over a HKC system that was installed by another and can be connected to any monitoring station.



So once again we can see the flexibility there.


And yes sir, you are correct, it is funny, that i have had to inform you of that.

KoolKid wrote: »

People are well aware of the differences and are able to choose for themselves.
Yet again you seem more concerned about attacking me /my business practices than anything else.
Your agenda is pretty clear to all at this stange.

But they are not aware of the differences, see we are discussing stuff here on boards.ie, therefore all we can go on is posts on boards.ie.
Your own posts, as i have already mentioned, when someone comes on inquiring about new installations you are out of the traps with your 2 options and your Free offering and usual warning about charges. No mention of the manufacturer with the biggest market share.
So how could they be aware of the differences if you are doing that constantly?
No with respect, I am not attacking you or the company you work for, I am simply having a discussion with you and your claim that you offer people all the options when it is as clear as day from your own posts that you do not actually do that.
Your own agenda is is pretty clear for all to see for years here .

KoolKid wrote: »

Amazing how something that HKCs offing is so poor at is irrelevant.

Another question for you here please, what is more important to you;


1. That a system polls more for free but can only send a Comms failure in the event of a power cut, therefore not capable of transmitting an intruder alarm signal should the house be broken into during this time.



Or


2. That a system is capable to transmit notifications of precise signals during a power cut. Therefore being capable of transmitting intruder signals should the house be broken into during this time.



I know what I prefer there.
I know what I always offer my customers there.

KoolKid wrote: »

But yet lots of peoples HKC alarms were. Thats very concerning don't you think.

Now that is a very telling statement there, that tells me that obviously you have no idea. Now after all your years and if you do offer customers all the options, that not one single one of them has opted for a HKC system with App control etc?
Because see, none a single system was out of action.
I find it very strange that i need to tell a gentleman like you that with all your years of experience and offering all those people all the options.
Not one went for HKC, strange that.

KoolKid wrote: »

But did you not notify customers of how useless this service was as it relied on a single pair of wires coming from your house & you wouldn't get any notifications if the line was down?

This statement baffles me, I wonder are you confusing my posts with someone else's, because it was BK who brought that one up.


Anyway, I would say though, as old fashioned as that is now. It is actually more secure in a power cut situation than your Free option sending signals through peoples routers.
Fact here is and as I hope you are aware is that the Text / Speech dialler was fitted either in or alongside the control panel and was powered from the control panel.
Therefore in the event of a power cut, the Text / Speech dialler would still be capable of transmitting alarm signals.
While your own Free option cannot transmit alarm signals because the router has no electricity and therefore not functioning.
I thought you would have been aware of that, so it is I whom is

KoolKid wrote: »

Free will notify you of the broadband being down. Also of a smash & grab scenario if the connection goes down after an alarm event or entry start.

Free will indeed notify you if your broadband is down, a Comms failure is what you will get.
So you have a technical problem.
Your Broadband is down, there is now no internet in your home.
With Free, you need your Broadband to notify you if your alarm goes off.
It cannot now do that.
So can you please explain how a system in your Free option, can still get a signal out of a Smash & Grab event during a Power cut ?

KoolKid wrote: »

So why do you get so aggressive when anyone says anything bad about HKC.
You also constantly feel the need to come at me personally about who I work for & my work practices.

I have said so . No whether you want to believe me or not is up to you.
If you don't I'm sure you would have no problem calling me a liar.

I do not say anything aggressive when anyone says ' anything bad ' about HKC, you started this thread and I was surprised at you interest in this topic as you never ever mention HKC when you are offering people your famous options when they are inquiring about house alarm installations.


I am a bit disappointed that you feel my posts are a personal attack on you and my apologies if you feel they are, but I feel if that was so that one of The Mods would have picked me up on it.
As for coming at you, the company you work for or your work practices, I am sorry I am lost as to how you came to that conclusion, again if you feel this is a personal attack on you, your employer or indeed your work practices then i apologies.
As I have said, this to me is a simple discussion and if you feel I have stepped over the mark, please let me know and where so I will not upset you again.


As regards labeling people, sorry but that I simply will not do.

KoolKid wrote: »

I have never said they weren't successful.Do they feel the need to be told their loved.:)
In all forms of business there are successful company's out there. But there is no company, no matter how successful, that is right for everyone.

I can say i ever noticed you saying anything positive about HKC, but i suppose their sales figures is enough to keep them, as you put it ' feeling loved '.
You are right indeed, there is no company, no matter how successful, that is right for everyone.
I am happy to recommend HKC, you are not.

KoolKid wrote: »

Again as opposed to promoting the one all the time.
They have all ready go the information about HKC & they are looking for alternatives.
In work,Thats because in most cases they are calling me because their installers refuse to sell them what they want or they left their previous installer for not giving them all the information.Likewise they have had some quotes and were wary of the company because they were only pushing the one product.
I would be the same, no matter what product or service I was pricing to be honest.
You have never been on a site survey with me. HKC is regularly discussed as an option, but usually the customer hasn't been given all the facts to make up their mind.

Well i suppose the reason i promote the one all the time is because I do not want one of my customers coming back to me and saying that the system I specified and got installed was somehow lacking in anyway. Therefore i will as you put it, promote the best system for my customers.


I find it is very easy to compete on price but i also find you get what you pay for, personally I would rather walk away from a possible job rather than install a system that is lacking in anyway.
In my own experience the cheaper the installation then the less the customer gets.


Now with respect and with view to confidentiality and to conform with standards, what business would I have being with you while you are doing a site survey?


Again i see you mentioned HKC and what is interesting again there is your wording with regard to the customer not been given all the facts. I wonder do you so as you do here and talk people out of the HKC option?


Just that with your comment earlier and your misinformation as to what happened this week with some issues with one of HKC's suppliers, I reckon you could not have any customers using the HKC Securecomm system.

KoolKid wrote: »

All the way through this thread it reads the same.
You like one system, some other posters like different options. Thats life.
Why not just accept peoples different opinions instead of getting aggressive, personal & trying to undermine everything you don't agree with.

This thread is about HKC, so it is appropriate that HKC be discussed on this thread, well done on your observation.
I like more than 1 system, but I find in general and overall from a domestic Intruder security system, then HKC does tick all the boxes, other manufacturers fall short.
Therefore I choose them.


I am not trying to be aggressive, personal or trying to undermine stuff I don't agree with.


All I am doing is having a discussion here on a public forum.


I am surprised how personal you are taking it all.

KoolKid

As usual you really are going over the same things over and over and over.

I am not getting into these picky rows you seem intent on having with everyone who disagrees with you.

If people want free optionthat's up to them. They are coming on here and elsewhere and doing their research.
Your whole sales pitch on selling ongoing charges is what if a power cut, what if a power cut what if a power cut. What if the service goes down? What if someone uses a jammer and cuts the power.?

As I have said, no system does it all. I'm not going to pretend it does. I'm not on here to advertise.

What have Siemens and GSD got over HKC?
They have free or paid for options so you are not tied to subscriptions for the life of your alarm.
Siemens Vanderbilt is far superior with their connectivity options and integration.
I ll also admit they are not perfect and there are some great solutions out there that do more.
They both have their own options for GSM back up that you crave so much, again without locking you to subscriptions for the life of the system.
They both have muct faster polling times in the event of all comms being lost.
Siemens Vanderbilt can be lower than a minute.
GSD can be 5 minutes and still cheaper than HKCs 5 hours or 90 minutes.

These are the facts of it. I'm sure plenty have got some good information from some good posts and opinions here from a number of different posters.
No doubt you will be back on the attack. I'm not getting into any personal attacking here so I'm out of this thread.
All the best.
KK

bk

I don't really want to get pulled into some feud or detailed back and forth. I'm just calling things like I see them and what I see coming from the US and bigger trends in IT and Home Automation markets.

I don't have any skin in this game, honestly it won't effect me one way or the other, I just find the topic interesting. I do have lots of experience in a related field, computer and network security. It obviously isn't exactly the same, but many of the concepts of security and penetration testing are the same.

So I've a HKC 812 system. I've never really been happy with it. I can see that the hardware is very good quality and reliable. But the way the installer installed it was terrible in retrospect and it lacks any comms.

Now the obvious upgrade path for me would have been to swap in a HKC 1070 panel. Easy reuse of those good sensors. But I really don't want any more subscriptions. I've got way too many already and I'm sick of them. And I don't need dual path in my circumstances (big apartment building, you can't cut power or comms without a JCB).

So now I looked around and have opted to fit a Yale system. No subs, free app and monitoring. The whole thing including "panel" and sensors was a cheaper then just getting a 1070 panel + wifi fitted!

No it isn't perfect either, I can totally see a bunch of pros and cons to it like I do any system. But it suits my needs well for now.

I should have been an easy upgrade sale to HKC as I already had their panel and sensors, but because they didn't have an offering for me, they lost my sale.

Of course, I'm only one person, no big deal.

But I see the same with my two sisters and parents, all on 812's with voice dialling, expensive monitoring. Non of them are really happy with these services. I'd love to recommend a nice 1070 or similar upgrade to them, to give them a safer system and better monitoring, but if they do an expensive upgrade, they just don't want any more ongoing costs.

But what if they and others start making the same decision? What happens when Google Nest, Amazon Ring, Samsung ADT start coming to UK/Ireland and they start advertising wall to wall on TV like they do now for Google Home, Alexa, Nest Cameras, etc.? What happens when your customers and potential customers start asking about those, with their free services?

I fear if HKC stick with their current course they will start losing serious market share. And I would genuinely hate to see an Irish company, who makes solid hardware go down because they failed to keep up with the market.

I hope they come out with a new panel, with modern ideas and comms right in the box by default, with a new revamped app, modern home automation integration (IFTTT, etc.) and free single path monitoring (dual path optional extra). At least gives them a chance to keep up where the market is going.

Oh and it would be great if they upgraded their wireless sensors to the new Z-Wave 700 series chipset. 10 year battery life and Z-Wave Security 2 (S2) framework, which gives 128bit AES encryption, seriously impressive stuff. HKC's wireless gear looks like it was good when it was launched in 2010, but feels like they have fallen behind the industry there too a bit.

Either way I hope it works out well for HKC and if it doesn't installers can find an alternative that they are happy with.

kub

KoolKid wrote: »

As usual you really are going over the same things over and over and over.

I find I have to, to get the message across to you.

KoolKid wrote: »

I am not getting into these picky rows you seem intent on having with everyone who disagrees with you.

Picky rows, you are not getting into one, well its a good job we only have been discussing things so, which you have so far done an awful lot of.

KoolKid wrote: »

If people want free optionthat's up to them. They are coming on here and elsewhere and doing their research.
Your whole sales pitch on selling ongoing charges is what if a power cut, what if a power cut what if a power cut. What if the service goes down? What if someone uses a jammer and cuts the power.?

Free is indeed up to them, but you know what, you as a professional with almost 30 years in the security business are doing people a disservice by not explaining to them the true implications of Free.
As I have said, you are on here once someone inquiries about getting a system and you recommend your usual 2 and the free stuff and warn people off about subscriptions etc.
As for your line about Sales Pitch, that I do not understand as this to me is a simple discussion forum, I do not come on here selling stuff or looking for business. , so I am not sure what that is about.


Now lets face it, common tact here ok, the chances of a power cut are far far greater then an attempt to block the signals from the system.


So once again, your free options cannot send alarm activation conditions during a power cut.


HKC systems can.


We are in the security business, it is security we do, I know which one of those, as a professional that i prefer.

KoolKid wrote: »

As I have said, no system does it all. I'm not going to pretend it does. I'm not on here to advertise.

Just as well so , but again, if you are not then what was that you meant while ago about my sales pitch?

KoolKid wrote: »

What have Siemens and GSD got over HKC?
They have free or paid for options so you are not tied to subscriptions for the life of your alarm.
Siemens Vanderbilt is far superior with their connectivity options and integration.
I ll also admit they are not perfect and there are some great solutions out there that do more.
They both have their own options for GSM back up that you crave so much, again without locking you to subscriptions for the life of the system.
They both have muct faster polling times in the event of all comms being lost.
Siemens Vanderbilt can be lower than a minute.
GSD can be 5 minutes and still cheaper than HKCs 5 hours or 90 minutes.

Are you still on about polling times, really?
You feel polling times are more important than a systems ability to transmit alarm activations during a power cut?
Again i see you are using that phrase ' life of the system '
See obviously here you really don't give people all the options so, because if you did then you would have some HKC systems out there as well and if you did then you would know that the subscription to Securecomm is firstly a 2 year contract, now HKC panels are fairly sound and the quality is second to none and even today I was working on one that is more than 20 years old.
Not 2 but 20.
So that is not, life of the system is it now?

KoolKid wrote: »

These are the facts of it. I'm sure plenty have got some good information from some good posts and opinions here from a number of different posters.
No doubt you will be back on the attack. I'm not getting into any personal attacking here so I'm out of this thread.
All the best.
KK

There are the facts of it indeed, well they are now addressed and all.
I hope as well that some people can see what they leave themselves in for with Free.
I was never on the attack KK, I must say i am surprised you seem to take a different opinion to your own, very personal.
Anyway it was as always a delight having this discussion with you.

2011

Interesting thread, a few points:

1) I expect that Assa Abloy's acquisition of HKC will mean a large injection in cash and expertise. Hopefully this will result in HKC introducing a new alarm with a real IoT interface and an integrated CCTV and access control system. A more advanced app wouldn't hurt either.

2) I don't have the faith in risk assessments that others on here seem to have. Why? I have seen so many certified systems that a four year old could defeat. Let's be honest, the EN50131 bar is set pretty low.

3) How secure a security system is depends more on the installer than the system selected be it HKC or a another quality alternative (such as Siemens).

4) Sorry BK but I wouldn't accept a present of a Yale alarm
IMHO any alarm that will not accept inertia shock sensors is pretty useless (this is also the opinion of most professional alarm installers). From what you say the app sounds good, but I simply don't rate these systems.

5) Regarding concerns about power cuts: Small UPS are quite cheap. These could be used to back up broadband. Even if the UPS had a 10 minute autonomy this would be more sufficient time to contact an end user informing them of a power cut.


I have a HKC 1070 alarm myself. For me it breaks down like this:

Pros

• It works!
• Very reliable
• Quality components
• Competitive pricing (as most installers use it)
• I can use it to switch on my heating (it can switch more but I don't bother)
• Wireless sensors can be added with ease
• Camera PIR option
• Batteries for wireless devices last a very long time

Cons

• I don't mind paying €5 per month for the app. My only real gripe with the app is that the polling intervals are too long.
• Needs to move with the times and embrace the IoT revolution (as do most other alarm systems)

In summary I think that Assa Abloy buying HKC is for the best. Hopefully it will drive a new generation of alarm systems.

bk

I agree with almost everything you say. Just on this:

2011 wrote: »

4) Sorry BK but I wouldn't accept a present of a Yale alarm
IMHO any alarm that will not accept inertia shock sensors is pretty useless (this is also the opinion of most professional alarm installers). From what you say the app sounds good, but I simply don't rate these systems.

It suits my needs well, but I'm happy to admit it is far from perfect.

My ideal system would be a hybrid of a HKC and Yale system. The shocks and PIR's of HKC, perhaps with updated encryption and new Z-Wave chipset, damn impressive, with the Yale app and notifications and some other hardware features that I like from it, the hub etc.

On the shocks, the shocks of my HKC 812 didn't work anyway. I suspect because of how thick my window frames and glass is. The Glass is laminated security glass (and internally bedded), you would need to take a sledgehammer to get through it. This shows the importance of designing things to be "secure by default" and that really physical security is more important then electronic.

So as a result, shocks weren't a requirement for me, as I really don't think shocks would work well for me anyway, even if I upgraded them.

My Yale system is a big upgrade from my HKC 812 panel. I now have comms and instant notifications and remote control, which I didn't have with the 812 and I now have a nice bright yellow bell box out front which I didn't have with the "professionally" installed HKC 812 system. It also allows me to hide away the hub/panel and not having it sit in the hall straight above the key pad like where the installer stuck my 812 panel :rolleyes: Plus two IP cams with quick notifications and a few other nice HA geeky things.

So a big step up from what I had previously and all for about 1/4 the cost of a professionally installed HKC system.

However I readily admit that in my mind this system is a temporary system that I'll probably upgrade again in a few years, hopefully when the market matures.

And yes, an upgraded HKC panel, with upgraded wireless, proper IoT integration, much better app and better polling and more sensible comms pricing and I may very well return to them.

But for now I'm WAY happier with my yale system then I ever was with by badly installed HKC 812.

2011

bk wrote: »

I agree with almost everything you say. Just on this:

Some things are a matter of opinion, but I think that you will agree with the bit in bold:

"IMHO any alarm that will not accept inertia shock sensors is pretty useless (this is also the opinion of most professional alarm installers)"

My ideal system would be a hybrid of a HKC and Yale system. The shocks and PIR's of HKC, perhaps with updated encryption and new Z-Wave chipset, damn impressive, with the Yale app and notifications and some other hardware features that I like from it, the hub etc.

This is exactly the sort of thing I hope we get from HKC due to this acquisition.

On the shocks, the shocks of my HKC 812 didn't work anyway. I suspect because of how thick my window frames and glass is. The Glass is laminated security glass (and internally bedded), you would need to take a sledgehammer to get through it. This shows the importance of designing things to be "secure by default" and that really physical security is more important then electronic.

Agreed. This is not typical of windows fitted to domestic installations though.

My Yale system is a big upgrade from my HKC 812 panel. I now have comms and instant notifications and remote control, which I didn't have with the 812 and I now have a nice bright yellow bell box out front which I didn't have with the "professionally" installed HKC 812 system.

I would describe your Yale alarm as having some important features that the old HKC didn't have, however that does not mean that it is anything like the quality of the dated HKC it is replacing.

When I see a Yale bellbox I instantly conclude that an amateur has installed low quality, budget alarm that constantly generates false alarms in a half ar$ed attempt to "protect" a home :D
More often than not I am correct on this.

I take your point entirely that "professionally" installed HKC 812 system should have had a bellbox. Like you I am disappointed by the standard of install of so many "professionally" installed alarm systems.

bk

2011 wrote: »

Agreed. This is not typical of windows fitted to domestic installations though.

Yes and a major mistake IMO. Mainland Europe goes very much more for secure by design and I think we have a lot to learn from that. The UK is starting to go the same way now:

http://www.securedbydesign.com/

Hopefully the same concepts will eventually come here too.

2011 wrote: »

I would describe your Yale alarm as having some important features that the old HKC didn't have, however that does not mean that it is anything like the quality of the dated HKC it is replacing.

When I see a Yale bellbox I instantly conclude that an amateur has installed low quality, budget alarm that constantly generates false alarms in a half ar$ed attempt to "protect" a home :D
More often than not I am correct on this.

I take your point entirely that "professionally" installed HKC 812 system should have had a bellbox. Like you I am disappointed by the standard of install of so many "professionally" installed alarm systems.

False alarms? I haven't had one yet. Perhaps you are thinking of an older Yale system?

It certainly isn't perfect, but I'm really liking what I'm seeing so far.

BTW I've already got my Yale working with SmartThings, Google Home voice control, IFTTT, routines, etc.

A person breaking into my "amateur" install is going to be greeted by a cacophony of multiple loud sirens, flashing lights in every room, etc.

I'm obviously not recommending it based on that, that is into the geeky realm and most people won't do that.

As for your comment on "budget", the savings I made over a HKC system, would allow me to buy a half dozen CCTV cameras and nice new ABS anti-bump lock from the front door and still have change left over for a bunch of other security enhancements around my home. I think those will protect my home far more then a couple of shock sensors.

2011

bk wrote: »

Hopefully the same concepts will eventually come here too.

Yes, but ill advised to hold your breath.....

BTW I've already got my Yale working with SmartThings, Google Home voice control, IFTTT, routines, etc.

All nice things that every modern alarm should have in my opinion, but these features are more about convince, fun and entertainment than about security.

A person breaking into my "amateur" install is going to be greeted by a cacophony of multiple loud sirens, flashing lights in every room, etc.

I have no doubt about that, in fact I have a Wallace and Gromit image in my head right now when I think about your residence :D:D
I would love to see it, I think the cameras and reduced polling time are great additions.

As for your comment on "budget", the savings I made over a HKC system, would allow me to buy a half dozen CCTV cameras and nice new ABS anti-bump lock from the front door and still have change left over for a bunch of other security enhancements around my home.

With respect this is how you have decided to spend your security budget, I doubt that many other Yale customers spend what they perceive they have "saved" on CCTV and locks. I would say most spent no more whatsoever on security with the exception of an Lidl solar powered sensor light or two.

EN50131 sets the bar very, very low and these alarms don't even conform to that.

It is no secret that professional installers don't install Yale alarm systems so anyone that sees a Yale bellbox can be reasonably confident that the alarm was installed by a DIYer with little or no alarm experience. There is a far higher chance that a HKC / Siemens / whatever alarm has been installed by a PSA registered installer and as such should meet a much higher standard (sadly not always the case).

Besides, I suspect that most of your savings are due to the fact that you installed the system yourself and little of the savings are from using substandard cheaper Yale materials

bk

2011 wrote: »

All nice things that every modern alarm should have in my opinion, but these features are more about convince, fun and entertainment than about security.

On this point. I believe security systems need to be convenient and easy to use and yes perhaps even fun to be useful.

A problem I see with alarm systems amongst my family and friends is that in reality they aren't really using them much, if at all.

Maybe use them when they head out, but rarely if ever used when at home, even at night.

Making a system more convenient and easy to use usually leads to people using it more often and of course an alarm system is only protecting you if actually used.

For instance I've now worked my Yale system into my goodnight routine. I say "Hey Google, Goodnight" and:

- My TV turns off
- Lights turn off (after 60 seconds)
- Heating switches off
- Security cameras turns on

And now, my Yale Alarm arms.

I hadn't bothered to use my old HKC system overnight in years. Now my Yale is an easy and convenient part of my nightly routine and thus more secure.

Another example of this is where the new Nest Alarm Systems notices when the home is empty and you haven't armed the alarm, it sends you a notification saying it looks like you forgot to arm the alarm and would you like to arm it. Brilliant and simple convenience IMO.

Another example of where this is going in the long term is IP cameras that are running all the time and use facial recognition and AI to differentiate between people who are supposed to be there and a stranger. All without needing to arm/disarm/etc. Basically constant security monitoring with little effort.

Of course an installer might not care about the above, he just wants to bang a box in, get paid and be on his way. But for those interested in actual useful security I think these sort of conveniences and even fun are important to actually make it work.

2011

Great post BK, I agree 100%

Don’t get me wrong I think that the Yale alarm has some great features that the HKC (and others) are clearly lacking. I guess that my point is that the most important feature of an alarm is that it must be reliable.

From a HKC security perspective it is rock solid with one notable exception, the polling intervals are hours apart! There is no excuse for this not being every minute when connect to the internet even if it were to extend to once every hour when using the SIM.

kub

bk wrote: »

On this point. I believe security systems need to be convenient and easy to use and yes perhaps even fun to be useful.

A problem I see with alarm systems amongst my family and friends is that in reality they aren't really using them much, if at all.

Maybe use them when they head out, but rarely if ever used when at home, even at night.

Making a system more convenient and easy to use usually leads to people using it more often and of course an alarm system is only protecting you if actually used.

For instance I've now worked my Yale system into my goodnight routine. I say "Hey Google, Goodnight" and:

- My TV turns off
- Lights turn off (after 60 seconds)
- Heating switches off
- Security cameras turns on

And now, my Yale Alarm arms.

I hadn't bothered to use my old HKC system overnight in years. Now my Yale is an easy and convenient part of my nightly routine and thus more secure.

Another example of this is where the new Nest Alarm Systems notices when the home is empty and you haven't armed the alarm, it sends you a notification saying it looks like you forgot to arm the alarm and would you like to arm it. Brilliant and simple convenience IMO.

Another example of where this is going in the long term is IP cameras that are running all the time and use facial recognition and AI to differentiate between people who are supposed to be there and a stranger. All without needing to arm/disarm/etc. Basically constant security monitoring with little effort.

Of course an installer might not care about the above, he just wants to bang a box in, get paid and be on his way. But for those interested in actual useful security I think these sort of conveniences and even fun are important to actually make it work.

BK well done on your interconnecting, but tell me please, can you also say ' Good Morning Google' does that switch off your alarm as well?


See you saying something and arming your alarm does not comply with standards, that has to be done by a User code on a Keypad or on a Fob Keypad.
That might seem ancient, but they are the standards.


Please don't say it recognises your voice, I have a issue with that statement.
Just my phone recognises my voice as well and sometimes i say nothing and see my phone reacting because it heard something on radio or TV.


Surely your CCTV is on 24/ 7? No ?


Heating in this weather, are you crazy man ?


On a serious note and unless someone can convince me other wise, convenience and security are not bed fellows.


That Nest system you referred to above, obviously it utilises PIR technology to determine that there is no one home.


I have issues with that straight away as only PIR coverage in a domestic dwelling is not enough security in my view.


Now without sounding like a pain, and also this will not comply with standards, but your old 8/ 12 could have been set up to integrate with your Home automation system as well.

2011

kub wrote: »

See you saying something and arming your alarm does not comply with standards, that has to be done by a User code on a Keypad or on a Fob Keypad.

So what?

On a serious note and unless someone can convince me other wise, convenience and security are not bed fellows.

Even when it is in the form of HKC's app?

kub

2011 wrote:

So what?

Did you have such a disregard for standards when you worked in this sector?