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Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,591 Mod ✭✭✭✭
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Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,802 Mod ✭✭✭✭
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BK well done on your interconnecting, but tell me please, can you also say ' Good Morning Google' does that switch off your alarm as well?
I can opt to set it up that way or not. I've opted to allow it
Yes, Google Home has voice recognition, I agree it isn't likely a high level of biometric security, though it is rumoured they are working on it. The Nest alarm can be armed by voice, but not disarmed.
I'm not overly concerned about this as a weakness, a person would already need to be in my home and alarm already triggered and notified me in order to use it. Then there is the voice recongition that might trip them up and even them needing to know that is possible. Finally the command I use to deactivate it isn't "disarm alarm" or even "good morning" it is completely made up by me. With what I do, you can make the deactivate command anything you want, e.g. "Hey Google, daffy duck time" (mine isn't that).
If you think about it, that is actually pretty much the equivalent of a PIN code.See you saying something and arming your alarm does not comply with standards, that has to be done by a User code on a Keypad or on a Fob Keypad.
That might seem ancient, but they are the standards.
Lets talk about that for a moment. This is a very clear example of the EN standard allowing for convenience over security. The fact that you can have a fob or remote on your keys along with your house key is clearly idiotic from a security perspective.
Lose your keys and now someone could both unlock your front door and easily disarm your alarm! :eek:
This is clearly an example of trading off security for convenience and a feature people wanted.
The above is much less secure then my Google Voice setup above IMO. Which is why I opted not to buy the optional keyfob for my Yale system.
BTW I assume you know most of these fobs can be cloned in about 2 seconds using a €15 device off ebay? Not exactly great security there.Please don't say it recognises your voice, I have a issue with that statement.
Just my phone recognises my voice as well and sometimes i say nothing and see my phone reacting because it heard something on radio or TV.
Actually the way it works is that the voice recognition works on the server side/cloud side. Your phone will always light up when it thinks it hears the command work (e.g. Hey Google) and then transmits what it hears to the cloud servers for processing. It is those cloud servers that do the actual voice recognition and they then only process the command if they recognise your voice.
For instance my Google Home lights up when a Google Home ad comes on TV. But then it stops and says nothing when the cloud side recognises that it isn't you. It is quiet clever how it all works.
I agree with you that the voice recognition is not at biometric levels standards at the moment. But what you say above is not an indication of that.
In fact the above way it works shows how it can improve immensely in time. The fact that the processing is done on the cloud side and isn't constrained by the hardware on the client device, means that they can easily upgrade the quality of the false positive rates for voice recognition using AI techniques in future, without the need for any new client hardware.
What Google are doing with AI is pretty incredible. Check out Duplex if you are interested in this stuff.Surely your CCTV is on 24/ 7? No ?
I've two, one yes, one no.
My home is an apartment, thus I can't have CCTV outside looking onto the common areas, so my cameras need to be indoors unfortunately.
One looking at the hall/entrance door is running all the time. But the second one is in my living room covering the balcony, but also a lot of the living room. Obviously I don't want this one running when family are around, so I've it setup to only be on when the alarm is on. Which is fine for my needs. We would easily notice someone trying to break in when we are home.
I will likely to get a third to cover my outside balcony, but I'm not happy with the options available at the moment, so I'm keeping an eye out and thinking about it.Heating in this weather, are you crazy man ?
Haha, I know right!! :eek: Saying turning it on/off is a simplification. What actually happens, when I say "good night" is sets the target temperature to 18c, which means the heating only comes on if the temperature drops below 18c. When I say "good morning" it sets the target temp to 21c, so the heating comes on when temp drops below 21c.
Obviously at this time of the year, the above has no real effect, the thermostat will never hit those low temps and those never turn on the heat.
The new smart thermostats work more around the concept of target temperatures then the more old fashioned heating being actually on/off at certain times.On a serious note and unless someone can convince me other wise, convenience and security are not bed fellows.
Then no key fobs or remotes for alarms? No deactivating an alarm system by sms, which isn't encrypted and easily replay attacked?
Everything about security is a trade off between security, cost and convenience.
If it wasn't, then no bank would offer online banking. They would make you come into the bank every time, show ID and scan your finger print. Note this is what they actually do it in Brazil!
Of course people don't want that. They want the convenience of online banking and of course it suits the banks from a cost perspective * That is what leads to people like me needing to write secure banking software and think carefully about how to make it secure while making it easy for people to use. It is all a trade off.
* Interestingly banks are willing to accept a certain level of online fraud and in most cases just pay their customers back when it happens as it is still cheaper then having to staff bank branches to Brazilian level of security.
BTW if people here in Ireland really cared about security, they wouldn't bother with silly electronic security systems. Go to Brazil and even on the most expensive home you won't see any alarm systems. Instead iron bars on all doors/windows, a high wall tipped with electric wire all around the home and usually a big angry dog or two patrolling the garden.
Of course we don't have Brazilian levels of crime and violence. So people here opt for the trade off of a lower level of security using alarm systems for convenience and aesthetic reasons.
So lets not pretend that security, cost and convenience aren't a major concern for the design of any secure system.That Nest system you referred to above, obviously it utilises PIR technology to determine that there is no one home.
No it uses GPS geofencing on your phone. The expectation is that each person in the house installs the nest app on their phone. When the cloud system notices that all the registered phones are out of the house, but the system not armed, it notifies you. Of course this is just a convenient reminder and far from perfect. The expectation is that you would normally arm the alarm as normal when leaving your home. It is really just a reminder for you know that time you are rushing out the door with three kids hanging off you and forget to arm the system in your haste. That sort of thing happens to real people in real life all the time, so little touches like this are welcome IMO.
BTW Nest also have a selection of outdoor cloud IP cams, including the a doorbell camera. They include AI face recognition and can notify you if a stranger approaches your home.
They haven't yet worked that into their alarm system, in terms of arming, etc. but it is obvious it will come in time.Now without sounding like a pain, and also this will not comply with standards, but your old 8/ 12 could have been set up to integrate with your Home automation system as well.
I'm aware there is some Arduino kit and code which with a bit of soldering allow for that. It sounds really interesting, but I didn't want to go down that route.
Coming back to this thread topic. I left my HKC sensors in place. If HKC come out with a new panel with modern integration then I may well happily return to it.0 -
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That is cool, I do like it but standards are lagging behind here as you probably agree.I can opt to set it up that way or not. I've opted to allow it
Yes, Google Home has voice recognition, I agree it isn't likely a high level of biometric security, though it is rumoured they are working on it. The Nest alarm can be armed by voice, but not disarmed.
I'm not overly concerned about this as a weakness, a person would already need to be in my home and alarm already triggered and notified me in order to use it. Then there is the voice recongition that might trip them up and even them needing to know that is possible. Finally the command I use to deactivate it isn't "disarm alarm" or even "good morning" it is completely made up by me. With what I do, you can make the deactivate command anything you want, e.g. "Hey Google, daffy duck time" (mine isn't that).
If you think about it, that is actually pretty much the equivalent of a PIN code.Lets talk about that for a moment. This is a very clear example of the EN standard allowing for convenience over security. The fact that you can have a fob or remote on your keys along with your house key is clearly idiotic from a security perspective.
Lose your keys and now someone could both unlock your front door and easily disarm your alarm! :eek:
This is clearly an example of trading off security for convenience and a feature people wanted.
The above is much less secure then my Google Voice setup above IMO. Which is why I opted not to buy the optional keyfob for my Yale system.
BTW I assume you know most of these fobs can be cloned in about 2 seconds using a €15 device off ebay? Not exactly great security there.
Ok just re standards and fobs, you cannot just disarm an alarm by presenting a fob or just pressing a button, both have to also involve a code being inputted.
Note the digit buttons here on the HKC Fob
https://www.google.com/search?q=HKC+securewave+fob&client=firefox-b&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiG7c2T2IjcAhWLAsAKHTa0ABUQ_AUICigB&biw=1366&bih=631#imgrc=X_oECdtEMxmyrM:
With regard to your cloning concern, well yes and that is why a lot of us have issues with Yale Alarm systems.Actually the way it works is that the voice recognition works on the server side/cloud side. Your phone will always light up when it thinks it hears the command work (e.g. Hey Google) and then transmits what it hears to the cloud servers for processing. It is those cloud servers that do the actual voice recognition and they then only process the command if they recognise your voice.
For instance my Google Home lights up when a Google Home ad comes on TV. But then it stops and says nothing when the cloud side recognises that it isn't you. It is quiet clever how it all works.
I agree with you that the voice recognition is not at biometric levels standards at the moment. But what you say above is not an indication of that.
In fact the above way it works shows how it can improve immensely in time. The fact that the processing is done on the cloud side and isn't constrained by the hardware on the client device, means that they can easily upgrade the quality of the false positive rates for voice recognition using AI techniques in future, without the need for any new client hardware.
What Google are doing with AI is pretty incredible. Check out Duplex if you are interested in this stuff.
I will indeed check out Duplex, thank you. It will very interesting what developments happen in the immediate future with regard to integration and development in home automation/ security systems but my interest here will be to see how standards will be updated and implemented but maintained at a good standard.I've two, one yes, one no.
My home is an apartment, thus I can't have CCTV outside looking onto the common areas, so my cameras need to be indoors unfortunately.
One looking at the hall/entrance door is running all the time. But the second one is in my living room covering the balcony, but also a lot of the living room. Obviously I don't want this one running when family are around, so I've it setup to only be on when the alarm is on. Which is fine for my needs. We would easily notice someone trying to break in when we are home.
I will likely to get a third to cover my outside balcony, but I'm not happy with the options available at the moment, so I'm keeping an eye out and thinking about it.
Good idea about the camera being active while the alarm is set.Then no key fobs or remotes for alarms? No deactivating an alarm system by sms, which isn't encrypted and easily replay attacked?
Well as above with regard to fobs and the necessity to input a code as well as per the standard.
I am sure as you have pointed out SMS etc, nothing on that side is perfect from that point of view.
Everything about security is a trade off between security, cost and convenience.
If it wasn't, then no bank would offer online banking. They would make you come into the bank every time, show ID and scan your finger print. Note this is what they actually do it in Brazil!
Of course people don't want that. They want the convenience of online banking and of course it suits the banks from a cost perspective * That is what leads to people like me needing to write secure banking software and think carefully about how to make it secure while making it easy for people to use. It is all a trade off.
* Interestingly banks are willing to accept a certain level of online fraud and in most cases just pay their customers back when it happens as it is still cheaper then having to staff bank branches to Brazilian level of security.
BTW if people here in Ireland really cared about security, they wouldn't bother with silly electronic security systems. Go to Brazil and even on the most expensive home you won't see any alarm systems. Instead iron bars on all doors/windows, a high wall tipped with electric wire all around the home and usually a big angry dog or two patrolling the garden.
Of course we don't have Brazilian levels of crime and violence. So people here opt for the trade off of a lower level of security using alarm systems for convenience and aesthetic reasons.
So lets not pretend that security, cost and convenience aren't a major concern for the design of any secure system.
I am not pretending that security, cost and convenience are not a major concern for the design of any secure system, but i can only offer an opinion from my own experience.
You pay for what you get, that saying rings through in most situations but then the consumer has to ensure also that they are getting a quality product or service.
Thankfully here in Ireland, we have not yet reached the crime levels that the likes of Brazil etc. have, I hope we never do by the way.
The average burglary here is a result of a lack of awareness, interest or the good old, " it couldn't happen here" by home owners.
Therefore in the mean time those that have those silly security systems are getting the necessary piece of mind from them.
As regards the banks, well it is the bottom line that is the only thing that matters to them, well done on you getting in there and working on their security systems.
Staff reduction seems to be the order of the day in banking and with the likes of Rabo bank on the scene then they want their customers doing their own transactions.No it uses GPS geofencing on your phone. The expectation is that each person in the house installs the nest app on their phone. When the cloud system notices that all the registered phones are out of the house, but the system not armed, it notifies you. Of course this is just a convenient reminder and far from perfect. The expectation is that you would normally arm the alarm as normal when leaving your home. It is really just a reminder for you know that time you are rushing out the door with three kids hanging off you and forget to arm the system in your haste. That sort of thing happens to real people in real life all the time, so little touches like this are welcome IMO.
That is great and again, standards and the weakness's with regard to remote communication and the actual security system as you have pointed out will all need to be reviewed.BTW Nest also have a selection of outdoor cloud IP cams, including the a doorbell camera. They include AI face recognition and can notify you if a stranger approaches your home.
They haven't yet worked that into their alarm system, in terms of arming, etc. but it is obvious it will come in time.
That it will, do Nest charge subscriptions for their doorbell cameras ?
Just Comelit and Hikvision have their own ranges now.I'm aware there is some Arduino kit and code which with a bit of soldering allow for that. It sounds really interesting, but I didn't want to go down that route.
Coming back to this thread topic. I left my HKC sensors in place. If HKC come out with a new panel with modern integration then I may well happily return to it.
Hopefully your HKC sensors will still be functional when HKC come out with a new panel.0 -
Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,802 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 22398
That is cool, I do like it but standards are lagging behind here as you probably agree.
Absolutely. A lot has changed with regards to electronics, software and the cost of those over the last 12 years since the standard was written and more will change over the next 5 years. So yes, I would agree that it will definitely need updating.Ok just re standards and fobs, you cannot just disarm an alarm by presenting a fob or just pressing a button, both have to also involve a code being inputted.
Note the digit buttons here on the HKC Fob
https://www.google.com/search?q=HKC+securewave+fob&client=firefox-b&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiG7c2T2IjcAhWLAsAKHTa0ABUQ_AUICigB&biw=1366&bih=631#imgrc=X_oECdtEMxmyrM:
With regard to your cloning concern, well yes and that is why a lot of us have issues with Yale Alarm systems.
That is cool, except I'm sure you know that there is an option in the HKC panel to turn off needing to enter the code on the keyfob.
From about 1:45 in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDc2oVfUFD0
And I'm sure you know most people want it off, otherwise why bother. It is a pain to type it in on those little keys. Would be easier to just type it into a panel.
The fact this option exists clearly shows even HKC know they have to offer the trade off of security and convenience.
BTW I was actually thinking more of the proximity tags, these guys:
http://www.hkcsecurity.com/ie/product/prox-tags/key-pads/
Clearly they arm/disarm the system without a code.I will indeed check out Duplex, thank you. It will very interesting what developments happen in the immediate future with regard to integration and development in home automation/ security systems but my interest here will be to see how standards will be updated and implemented but maintained at a good standard.
Definitely. This is why I like looking at new systems that go beyond the standards and what is coming from other markets and what is likely to come in future and will hopefully be written into future standards.
BTW Duplex isn't related to security. It is a Google AI system to allow a computer to talk to people over a phone and book a table while sounding human. It is more showing Googles AI skills, pretty impressive stuff. Voice recognition like this is one of the hardest problems in computing.As regards the banks, well it is the bottom line that is the only thing that matters to them, well done on you getting in there and working on their security systems.
Staff reduction seems to be the order of the day in banking and with the likes of Rabo bank on the scene then they want their customers doing their own transactions.
Absolutely. Though in fairness to them, their customers are demanding it too. People want easy online banking. No one wants to go queue up in a line in a bank during their working day for basic transactions.That it will, do Nest charge subscriptions for their doorbell cameras ?
You don't have to have a sub, but for all of Nests cameras you really do need a sub to make use of them. The cloud storage and AI features require a sub.
Nest are definitely at the premium end of the cloud IP cameras. They are pretty high quality for that market, but I'd advise anyone considering them to factor in the cost of the sub if you go with them.
Some of the other camera options, like Logitech Circle, Arlo, etc. can get by ok without a sub, depending on how you use them. For instance I don't need a sub for the way I use my Logitech Circle cameras. But another person might.
BTW Nest Alarm system doesn't require a sub for wifi based self monitoring and app control, though they do obviously have paid professional monitoring options.
Nest Thermostats and smoke detectors don't require any sub.
Basically in the HA world, most stuff doesn't need subs. The amount of data being sent and received is trivial. However when you add cameras and in particular cloud storage, data transmission and storage absolutely jumps and subs become required.Just Comelit and Hikvision have their own ranges now.
Doorbell cams? Cool, I most check them out, I was aware of only the Ring and Nest ones.Hopefully your HKC sensors will still be functional when HKC come out with a new panel.
Yep, even if they have to be replaced, it is more about benefiting from the fact that they are wired.
And yes, I do know that wired versus wireless is another trade off of cost and convenience versus security
Good old wired sensors, more secure, no replay attacks, no jamming or interference worries and no needing to replace batteries
I know it might seem bizarre that I know this, yet I went from a wired system to a wireless one. But it is a trade off in features, pros and cons.
I have in my head my ideal system. I know my new Yale system isn't it. But it does hit a lot of the things I want and suits me better then my old system, it will do for a few years until hopefully the ideal system arrives.
Queue HKC releasing a new panel tomorrow that meets my ideal :cool:0 -
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That is cool, except I'm sure you know that there is an option in the HKC panel to turn off needing to enter the code on the keyfob.
From about 1:45 in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDc2oVfUFD0
And I'm sure you know most people want it off, otherwise why bother. It is a pain to type it in on those little keys. Would be easier to just type it into a panel.
More boxes being ticked by them
Yes you are correct, that code function on fobs can indeed be turned on and off, as a matter of fact out of the box the code function is Off.The fact this option exists clearly shows even HKC know they have to offer the trade off of security and convenience.
BTW I was actually thinking more of the proximity tags, these guys:
http://www.hkcsecurity.com/ie/product/prox-tags/key-pads/
Clearly they arm/disarm the system without a code.
HKC sell their gear in the UK as well and those prox tags are in use over there, you know how the UK like to have their own standards :rolleyes:?
I always find one inside 10/70 Keypad boxes with the keypad, as in when i just get a keypad only.
I would not use one or even give someone an option to be honest, I would rather someone had a simple code.Absolutely. Though in fairness to them, their customers are demanding it too. People want easy online banking. No one wants to go queue up in a line in a bank during their working day for basic transactions.
You can be sure customers want to do it themselves, banks no longer want their customers on their premises.
Absolutely no one wants to queue to that one teller when there used to be 10 or 12 tellers.
I think this is more of the banks doing than their customers demands though, I think the banks started the ball rolling when their backs were to the wall and now customers have gotten the message loud and clear.And yes, I do know that wired versus wireless is another trade off of cost and convenience versus security
Good old wired sensors, more secure, no replay attacks, no jamming or interference worries and no needing to replace batteries
I know it might seem bizarre that I know this, yet I went from a wired system to a wireless one. But it is a trade off in features, pros and cons.
I have in my head my ideal system. I know my new Yale system isn't it. But it does hit a lot of the things I want and suits me better then my old system, it will do for a few years until hopefully the ideal system arrives.
Queue HKC releasing a new panel tomorrow that meets my ideal :cool:
You are correct about the integrity of wired sensors over wireless ones, I feel that will always be the case no matter how much the wireless frequencies can be secured.
Tell us more about that ideal system, what is on your wish list?0 -
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Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,591 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 12289
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