Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice

Penn

TitianGerm wrote: »

You won't beat him by chipping away at his health because he'll eventually catch you. If you face him directly and deflect him the fight will be over in less than 2 minutes.

Edit: it reads like your playing the game as if it's Dark Souls. You need to stop dodging and rely on deflects the vast majority of the time.

They shouldn't have put the dodge in the game at all. Seriously. If it's only meant to be used against one specific type of attack most enemies don't even use, they shouldn't have bothered with it at all. It's a reasonable assumption that dodging out of the way of an attack should put you out of the way of an attack.

This is why I never used Royal Guard in any Devil May Cry games. Give me Trickster any day....

Been a while since I played Sekiro, but I remember using the umbrella to deflect the ashina elite guys attack demolishes his posture. Fight over in seconds.

TitianGerm

Penn wrote: »

They shouldn't have put the dodge in the game at all. Seriously. If it's only meant to be used against one specific type of attack most enemies don't even use, they shouldn't have bothered with it at all. It's a reasonable assumption that dodging out of the way of an attack should put you out of the way of an attack.

This is why I never used Royal Guard in any Devil May Cry games. Give me Trickster any day....

The main focus of the game is deflect not dodge. If you dodge backwards you won't be hit by an attack. My guess is your dodging towards the enemy as if you're playing Dark Souls so you can get behind him for a back stab. But by doing that your most likely dodging into the swing of the enemy sword.

When you're dodging the Ashina Elite are you dodging to Wolf's left?

Penn

TitianGerm wrote: »

The main focus of the game is deflect not dodge. If you dodge backwards you won't be hit by an attack. My guess is your dodging towards the enemy as if you're playing Dark Souls so you can get behind him for a back stab. But by doing that your most likely dodging into the swing of the enemy sword.

When you're dodging the Ashina Elite are you dodging to Wolf's left?

Yeah, his left. I am able to dodge him most of the time, usually only get hit if I get too close to a wall and can't dodge as far. Or I just miss one and he punishes for it, which the same can happen far easier with trying to deflect.

As for dodging backwards and not being hit.... Seven Spears would like a word with you...

I know my repeated deaths to him are mostly my fault. Timing wrong, going for too many hits etc. I don't find him as unfair as some of the others I've mentioned. But being killed during resurrection.... that can f*ck right off. That's bullsh*t. You should either have enough I-frames to allow you block, or allow you to block during the resurrection.

Doctor Nick

Ashina Elight is the one mini boss where dodging is very effective. It is 100% possible to defeat him this way. It's how I did it first play through. 2nd play through I used umbrella to deflect. However, playing as TitianGerm suggests is definitely the most satisfying way to do it. Can't beat getting those perfect deflects and his Posture breaks in seconds.

TitianGerm

Penn wrote: »

Yeah, his left. I am able to dodge him most of the time, usually only get hit if I get too close to a wall and can't dodge as far. Or I just miss one and he punishes for it, which the same can happen far easier with trying to deflect.

As for dodging backwards and not being hit.... Seven Spears would like a word with you...

I know my repeated deaths to him are mostly my fault. Timing wrong, going for too many hits etc. I don't find him as unfair as some of the others I've mentioned. But being killed during resurrection.... that can f*ck right off. That's bullsh*t. You should either have enough I-frames to allow you block, or allow you to block during the resurrection.

If you want to keep dodging try dodging to your right up his left side. His sword starts on that side and swings to his right so you should be able to dodge through the attack with the iFrames whereas dodging to your left is leaving you in his swing arch if you don't go far enough you'll still be caught.

Double tapping dodge backwards will get you away from Seven Spears. I keep a small distance on him so he uses his thrust attack. I Mikiri this and he'll throw you off on the first one. Second time he won't and you can get a quick hit in on him. If I remember right you can also hit him with ash or a firecracker to stun him for a quick two hits. I think you need to do six Mikiri to break his posture with a few hits thrown in.

You do have iFrames during res but not that many. When you're killed take a moment and let the enemy move away. Pop res, back up/run away and heal then reset.

Penn

TitianGerm wrote: »

If you want to keep dodging try dodging to your right up his left side. His sword starts on that side and swings to his right so you should be able to dodge through the attack with the iFrames whereas dodging to your left is leaving you in his swing arch if you don't go far enough you'll still be caught.

Double tapping dodge backwards will get you away from Seven Spears. I keep a small distance on him so he uses his thrust attack. I Mikiri this and he'll throw you off on the first one. Second time he won't and you can get a quick hit in on him. If I remember right you can also hit him with ash or a firecracker to stun him for a quick two hits. I think you need to do six Mikiri to break his posture with a few hits thrown in.

You do have iFrames during res but not that many. When you're killed take a moment and let the enemy move away. Pop res, back up/run away and heal then reset.

Thankfully Seven Spears is done and dusted, though I think someone mentioned there's another of him somewhere. Something to look forward to...

I know I do need to get dodging out of my mind and focus completely on deflecting. I absolutely get that. But I'll die (repeatedly, and with much dragonrot) on this hill that if there's a dodge mechanic in the game it's unfair to punish players for using it outside the one type of attack they want it to be used for even though there's a reasonable expectation it'd put you out of the way of many other attacks.

TitianGerm

Penn wrote: »

Thankfully Seven Spears is done and dusted, though I think someone mentioned there's another of him somewhere. Something to look forward to...

I know I do need to get dodging out of my mind and focus completely on deflecting. I absolutely get that. But I'll die (repeatedly, and with much dragonrot) on this hill that if there's a dodge mechanic in the game it's unfair to punish players for using it outside the one type of attack they want it to be used for even though there's a reasonable expectation it'd put you out of the way of many other attacks.

If your talking about using the dodge for the un-blockable attack then there's a more effective technique. You jump over the attack and onto the enemy. If you have the right skill unlocked then you'll be able to attack them in the air or vault over them and get a death blow.

Penn

TitianGerm wrote: »

If your talking about using the dodge for the un-blockable attack then there's a more effective technique. You jump over the attack and onto the enemy. If you have the right skill unlocked then you'll be able to attack them in the air or vault over them and get a death blow.

No I just mean the dodge in general, where a dodge should put you to the side of an enemy's attack (depending on the type of attack, obviously sweeps have a wider arc and could still hit you), but instead they rotate on the spot to still hit you. I noticed it first with a small ogre making a vertical strike, I dodge around him but he spun around and still hit me. Then I posted a video of Juzou the drunkard who also goes for a vertical hit, and rotates about 270degrees on one foot. The guy playing dodged three times around him and still just barely missed being hit.

Similar did happen with Seven Spears. I was on the stairs behind him and he went for a sweep, so tried the jumping attack, but maybe due to my extra height from the stairs or just pressing forward too much I jumped completely over him. By the time I landed he'd done a complete 180 mid-attack and still hit me.

If I die due to something I did, fair enough. But there's an unfairness in things like that which greatly annoy me. If the combat system is predicated on being difficult, requiring timing and patience etc, it needs to be reasonably fair. Stuff like that just adds to the difficulty for no good reason and causes frustration, because in situations like that, it's reasonable to assume you shouldn't be hit even if you've used a different defensive move than the devs would have wanted you to use.

Retr0gamer

In fairness Penn, you dodging in those situations is your own fault. You did die because of something you did wrong. The game gives you a way out of those attacks, blocking or deflecting. You choosing the to dodge is kind of on you. It might not be realistic but the game is consistent. If you see an attack coming that isn't a grab attack, don't dodge as you are mostly going to get tracked.

I get where you are coming from as took me a while to get out of the dodging mindset but blaming the game is just going to frustrate you. The vast majority of the times I died early on it was my own fault for dodging instead of deflecting.

Penn

Retr0gamer wrote: »

In fairness Penn, you dodging in those situations is your own fault. You did die because of something you did wrong. The game gives you a way out of those attacks, blocking or deflecting. You choosing the to dodge is kind of on you. It might not be realistic but the game is consistent. If you see an attack coming that isn't a grab attack, don't dodge as you are mostly going to get tracked.

I get where you are coming from as took me a while to get out of the dodging mindset but blaming the game is just going to frustrate you. The vast majority of the times I died early on it was my own fault for dodging instead of deflecting.

I just think the goalkeeper shouldn't teleport from one side of the goal to the other to save the ball just because I did an overhead kick when the game wanted me to do a header.

If you move out of the way of an attack, the attack shouldn't still hit just because it wants you to deflect instead. You still get punished for it as it doesn't affect the enemies posture gauge and only results in chip damage even if you do hit them after dodging. But the dodge mechanic is there and is useable. If it should only be used for grabs they should have made it like the Mikiri counter.

I think I've made my point enough and I get that I'm seemingly in the minority on this, so fair enough. It's not a big enough issue that it ruins the game, but I stand by my assertion that it's poor design.

Penn

Penn wrote: »

I just think the goalkeeper shouldn't teleport from one side of the goal to the other to save the ball just because I did an overhead kick when the game wanted me to do a header.

If you move out of the way of an attack, the attack shouldn't still hit just because it wants you to deflect instead. You still get punished for it as it doesn't affect the enemies posture gauge and only results in chip damage even if you do hit them after dodging. But the dodge mechanic is there and is useable. If it should only be used for grabs they should have made it like the Mikiri counter.

I think I've made my point enough and I get that I'm seemingly in the minority on this, so fair enough. It's not a big enough issue that it ruins the game, but I stand by my assertion that it's poor design.

I think I finished the game without being aware of this. I must have subconsciously realised it.

Penn

Very quickly dispatched Ashina Elite last night. As with Seven Spears and Kicky McFlippy in the well, I seem to do better when I take a break and go at them again the next day.

Was exploring around the top of the Castle and accidentally triggered a cutscene and the Genichiro fight, but decided I want to power up a bit more, so started making my way through Senpou. Got past the f*cker on the bridge (you'd think the loaded spear would have worked, wouldn't you...) and past a centipede-monk thing but decided I'd leave it there for the night.

Also at one point ended up in a cave with an enemy just called Headless but nope'd out of there. Still not really used to dealing with status effect enemies, so I'll just leave him for now.

I still much prefer the stealth side of the game. Exploring, planning routes through enemies to dispatch silently, that's the best part imo. The environments are fantastic.

Retr0gamer

Leaving the game and coming back the next day is a good idea as your brain goes through the scenario during the night and leaves you better equipped. Kind of a good life lesson as did it a lot when I was working with code.

As for headless. He is an optional super boss and guards a place that you can use to make the game harder.

Penn

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Leaving the game and coming back the next day is a good idea as your brain goes through the scenario during the night and leaves you better equipped. Kind of a good life lesson as did it a lot when I was working with code.

As for headless. He is an optional super boss and guards a place that you can use to make the game harder.

In that case, I think I know which option I'll choose

TitianGerm

Retr0gamer wrote: »

As for headless. He is an optional super boss and guards a place that you can use to make the game harder.

You don't have to fight him there you can just run past him. There's more as well.

How far did you get in the game?

Retr0gamer

Was up to and into ashina castle and was exploring side areas as well. Well think it's that area with the guys with the claws on the rooftop outside.

Didn't realise there's more of the feckers.

Really want to get back into it now! Think I'll jump into it when I'm done with FF13-2.

TitianGerm

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Was up to and into ashina castle and was exploring side areas as well. Well think it's that area with the guys with the claws on the rooftop outside.

Didn't realise there's more of the feckers.

Really want to get back into it now! Think I'll jump into it when I'm done with FF13-2.

You've barely scratched the surface so and only fought one main boss?

Pffft wasting time on Ace Combat when you could have been playing Sekiro. Stop giving others advice then and go play it yourself :pac:

Retr0gamer

TitianGerm wrote: »

You've barely scratched the surface so. Loads of areas for you to go still

Oh I know! Just life got in the way. Really didn't help that I broke my collar bone badly the day the game came out and by the time I was able to play games again I had other stuff to distract me!

Penn

Genichiro is down. Now THAT was a boss fight. Only took 5 or 6 goes, got him down to the last stage on most of them, just the lightning attacks f*cked me up as I was trying to do that jump/deflect/throwback thing I read, but the easiest was just to jump and then go on the attack again.

johnny_ultimate

I do think the lightning counter is fairly awkwardly implemented in the game - there’s just not enough space or opportunity given for you to learn it the way you can the other moves. It’s the one key move I never felt became second nature the way other mechanics did.

TitianGerm

Penn wrote: »

Genichiro is down. Now THAT was a boss fight. Only took 5 or 6 goes, got him down to the last stage on most of them, just the lightning attacks f*cked me up as I was trying to do that jump/deflect/throwback thing I read, but the easiest was just to jump and then go on the attack again.

That's a great turn around on him. It took me two days to beat him, I just kept getting to greedy trying to get extra hits in.

Penn

TitianGerm wrote: »

That's a great turn around on him. It took me two days to beat him, I just kept getting to greedy trying to get extra hits in.

There was definitely a bit of luck in it. I know I misread a few of his attacks in the one I won, just didn't get punished as badly as I could have.

Also took down the screen monkeys easily enough. Then made my way to Guardian Ape. Beat him first try. Easy peasy. Took that b*stards head right off. Yup, easy peasy lemon sq....

Yeah you can guess what happened next...

petes

I kept trying to do the lightning reversal on Genichiro but never managed it.

Went with all out attack and dodge, probably fluked it a bit the first time

Penn

petes wrote: »

I kept trying to do the lightning reversal on Genichiro but never managed it.

Went with all out attack and dodge, probably fluked it a bit the first time

What was really confusing me was I was sure the note you can read after the Ashina Elite says you have to press L1 when hit in the air, then R1 before you land, but the popup during the fight only says to press R1 before you land. After trying it twice, I just didn't bother any more.

Have now killed the Big Ass Snake, Corrupted Monk and Guardian Ape (and other minor bosses in between). I'm kinda half following a bit of a walkthrough guide and it's saying that picking up the item after the ape fight starts the endgame and changes a few things, so I'm cleaning up a few other things first, including the Headlesses. Think I'm going to have the take on the two apes too for another prayer bead, as I have 3 burning a hole in my pocket and don't know where there are any more.

Anyway, have to say, I don't regret paying full price for the game. Really enjoying it. Still have some gripes with it, but the good bits definitely outweigh it. Genichiro, Orin of the Water, Corrupted Monk and Guardian Ape were all absolutely terrific boss fights, you really feel every muscle in your body unclench after fights like those.

TitianGerm

Penn wrote: »

What was really confusing me was I was sure the note you can read after the Ashina Elite says you have to press L1 when hit in the air, then R1 before you land, but the popup during the fight only says to press R1 before you land. After trying it twice, I just didn't bother any more.

Have now killed the Big Ass Snake, Corrupted Monk and Guardian Ape (and other minor bosses in between). I'm kinda half following a bit of a walkthrough guide and it's saying that picking up the item after the ape fight starts the endgame and changes a few things, so I'm cleaning up a few other things first, including the Headlesses. Think I'm going to have the take on the two apes too for another prayer bead, as I have 3 burning a hole in my pocket and don't know where there are any more.

Anyway, have to say, I don't regret paying full price for the game. Really enjoying it. Still have some gripes with it, but the good bits definitely outweigh it. Genichiro, Orin of the Water, Corrupted Monk and Guardian Ape were all absolutely terrific boss fights, you really feel every muscle in your body unclench after fights like those.

Did you get the prayer bead in the attic of the building where you meet Tengu first?

Penn

TitianGerm wrote: »

Did you get the prayer bead in the attic of the building where you meet Tengu first?

Yeah. I'm only one bead away from 7th necklace after picking up a few underwater ones now that I can dive, so I think I've gotten almost all of the available ones so far. To be honest, part of why I'm having to follow the walkthrough is I did too much exploring when I was getting stuck at Ashina Castle with Seven Spears and others, that I ended up getting lost and wandering around Sunken Valley and Abandoned Dungeon and the likes before I should have. So I ended up not knowing where the hell I was supposed to go or what to do. Same with not knowing how to get into Lady Butterfly, I'd gone exploring and accidentally found the back way into the burning temple before getting the key and being told to find a back way in.

Penn

Thought I was getting on great. Took down double apes, 2nd chained ogre, 4 headless, schicimen warrior (all first time) and got through the castle again.

Owl is kicking my damn ass though. Man he's tough. He's definitely beatable, got him 3/4s down on 2nd phase, but just couldn't finish him.

Doctor Nick

Penn wrote: »

Thought I was getting on great. Took down double apes, 2nd chained ogre, 4 headless, schicimen warrior (all first time) and got through the castle again.

Owl is kicking my damn ass though. Man he's tough. He's definitely beatable, got him 3/4s down on 2nd phase, but just couldn't finish him.

I found using the thing that poisons yourself slowly was great for phase 2 Owl. It's definitely one of the toughest fights in the game. It's where I had to give up on my charmless run.

Penn

Doctor Nick wrote: »

I found using the thing that poisons yourself slowly was great for phase 2 Owl. It's definitely one of the toughest fights in the game. It's where I had to give up on my charmless run.

Might be an idea alright. I was using the green gourd to reduce the poison meter from filling.

My main issue with him is not being able to capitalise on hitting him. Most of his attacks end with him jumping away before I have a chance to do any decent damage, and he fills up my posture like crazy.