Smart lights vs smart switches

lordgoat

realitykeeper wrote: »

The first wave of a modern day world war is likely to be a cyber attack or perhaps a nuclear explosion in space designed to destroy all ungrounded electronics. So electronic wealth is more vulnerable in the early stages of war.

As David Byrne might ask: How did you get here?

wexfordman2

realitykeeper wrote: »

The first wave of a modern day world war is likely to be a cyber attack or perhaps a nuclear explosion in space designed to destroy all ungrounded electronics. So electronic wealth is more vulnerable in the early stages of war.

In the event of a nuclear attack, the only wealth remaining will be basic resources, so unless your "smart home" budget is eating into your 'fill the secret 100,000l desiel tank out the back in the event of the apocalypse" budget, then I wouldn't worry too much about it.

bk

paulbok wrote: »

And all the census records during the Irish civil war.
If they only had Nest protect.
"there is smoke in the 4 courts, the alarm may sound, the alarm is loud.":D

ROFLOL, thanks that is brilliant

realitykeeper

wexfordman2 wrote: »

In the event of a nuclear attack, the only wealth remaining will be basic resources, so unless your "smart home" budget is eating into your 'fill the secret 100,000l desiel tank out the back in the event of the apocalypse" budget, then I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Precisely.

wexfordman2

realitykeeper wrote: »

Precisely.

Cool, glad we got that sorted, glad we could help.

realitykeeper

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Cool, glad we got that sorted, glad we could help.

Likewise, anytime.

AstraMonti

So thanks for the insightful few posts above ( :rolleyes: ). I 've decided to wait on the hue compatible switches. Is there any information of how they are going to look or which company from?

bk

AstraMonti wrote: »

So thanks for the insightful few posts above ( :rolleyes: ). I 've decided to wait on the hue compatible switches. Is there any information of how they are going to look or which company from?

Great video of some of them here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0RftciyNho

The important point to understand is that Philips are partnering with other companies to make these switches. There is at least 3 companies to start, with dozens of different switches, but I suspect in time there will be even more companies to join.

Only thing is, it isn't clear if these will only control Hue switches or will they also be able to act as a Smart Switch for standard LED's

It really shows how good Hue's ecosystem is.

AstraMonti

bk wrote: »

Great video of some of them here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0RftciyNho

The important point to understand is that Philips are partnering with other companies to make these switches. There is at least 3 companies to start, with dozens of different switches, but I suspect in time there will be even more companies to join.

Only thing is, it isn't clear if these will only control Hue switches or will they also be able to act as a Smart Switch for standard LED's

It really shows how good Hue's ecosystem is.

Oh that's great thanks, I really like those grey ones. None of them are currently available yet, right?

bk

AstraMonti wrote: »

Oh that's great thanks, I really like those grey ones. None of them are currently available yet, right?

Last quarter 2018 was what they said in the press release.

paulbok

bk wrote: »

Great video of some of them here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0RftciyNho

The important point to understand is that Philips are partnering with other companies to make these switches. There is at least 3 companies to start, with dozens of different switches, but I suspect in time there will be even more companies to join.

Only thing is, it isn't clear if these will only control Hue switches or will they also be able to act as a Smart Switch for standard LED's

It really shows how good Hue's ecosystem is.

I'd imagine primarily a smart switch for any bulb, perhaps with some programmable function a la the Hue dimmer for actions like double preses, and time settings for scenes.
As it would permanently be powered on, you can still set additional scenes via the Hue app or your control hub.
Saying that, I guess it would be picked up on the Hue app so you can set it up there.
I am looking forward to these more than anything else on the horizon. Apart from a few rooms, standard led bulbs will do me, so a smart switch is ideal.

paulbok

Should have watched that video first.
The Hue guy at the end said "these fully wireless switches will be available...."
Maybe the won't be replacing the dumb wired switch?

bk

paulbok wrote: »

Should have watched that video first.
The Hue guy at the end said "these fully wireless switches will be available...."
Maybe the won't be replacing the dumb wired switch?

We don't know yet. The above statement doesn't really make sense. I suspect he means that they will use Zigbee, rather then cat5, KNX, etc. control wiring that traditional smart switches like the ones Wexfordman has.

But I could be wrong about that, I'd say we will have to wait and see.

paulbok

bk wrote: »

We don't know yet. The above statement doesn't really make sense. I suspect he means that they will use Zigbee, rather then cat5, KNX, etc. control wiring that traditional smart switches like the ones Wexfordman has.

But I could be wrong about that, I'd say we will have to wait and see.

Hopefully both wired and completely wireless for 2+ gang switching

wexfordman2

bk wrote: »

We don't know yet. The above statement doesn't really make sense. I suspect he means that they will use Zigbee, rather then cat5, KNX, etc. control wiring that traditional smart switches like the ones Wexfordman has.

But I could be wrong about that, I'd say we will have to wait and see.

I would say they will be completely wireless, targetting the retrofit market. Just a hunch though

paulbok

wexfordman2 wrote: »

I would say they will be completely wireless, targetting the retrofit market. Just a hunch though

Fully wireless would only suit new builds?
With retrofitting you still have the traditional wired switch that you have to deal with.

wexfordman2

paulbok wrote: »

Fully wireless would only suit new builds?
With retrofitting you still have the traditional wired switch that you have to deal with.

Nope, thats not what I sad/meant sorry. I think the switches will be wireless only, to target the bigger retrofit market (ie existing houses already wired, remove old light switch, replace with new light switch).

b.gud

So I've moved into a new house and I was planning on adding a few SonOff touch light switches. I read the earlier post about needing the neutral wire so I opened up one of the light switches and I'm happy to say I think I have the required wires, picture below. Just wondering is there anything else I need to consider before installing one?

paulbok

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Nope, thats not what I sad/meant sorry. I think the switches will be wireless only, to target the bigger retrofit market (ie existing houses already wired, remove old light switch, replace with new light switch).

Think we are on cross purposes on wireless.
I'd had expected the new switches to do that, replace current old dumb switches.
But to me wireless implies no physical switch connection, similar to the hue dimmer.

bk

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Nope, thats not what I sad/meant sorry. I think the switches will be wireless only, to target the bigger retrofit market (ie existing houses already wired, remove old light switch, replace with new light switch).

I think you guys need to define what you mean by "wireless". There are two parts here, comms and power.

- Comms - How these devices communicate with the base, Zigbee wireless versus cat5, etc.
- Power - How you power the smart switch, battery or using 2 or 3 wire power cable.

For Comms I fully expect that they will use Zigbee wireless. As do all other Hue products.

But for the power, I suspect most of them * will use the 2/3 wires that are normally at the light switch to power them.

Even for the retrofit market, it still makes more sense to reuse the cables in the wall at the old light switch to power the smart switch, rather then having to mess around with changing batteries every few years.

* There may well also be battery options, as there are for the Xioami switches, they come in both battery powered and 2/3 wire powered, but I'd expect wired to be the primary option.

The battery option would be more if you want to put a second light switch at the end of the hall/room where no switch currently exists. It can also help with issues around two way switching.

What is unknown, is if the wired ones will actually control the circuit running to the ceiling lights or not. If you hit the switch will it:

1) cut the power to the ceiling lights or
2) will it be just sending an "off" command to the Hue lights to soft turn off, not actually cutting power

The former would work with both Hue lights and standard lights, the latter will work only with Hue lights.

Either is technically easily doable, you could even make it an option in the software config, so you could do both. So this question comes more down to the business decision for Philips. Do they just want to force people into buying Hue bulbs or do they want to open up the market to actual smart switches too?

bk

b.gud wrote: »

So I've moved into a new house and I was planning on adding a few SonOff touch light switches. I read the earlier post about needing the neutral wire so I opened up one of the light switches and I'm happy to say I think I have the required wires, picture below. Just wondering is there anything else I need to consider before installing one?

b.gud probably best to ask over on the Sonoff thread, you are more likely to get an answer there.

wexfordman2

bk wrote: »

I think you guys need to define what you mean by "wireless". There are two parts here, comms and power.

- Comms - How these devices communicate with the base, Zigbee wireless versus cat5, etc.
- Power - How you power the smart switch, battery or using 2 or 3 wire power cable.

For Comms I fully expect that they will use Zigbee wireless. As do all other Hue products.

But for the power, I suspect most of them * will use the 2/3 wires that are normally at the light switch to power them.

Even for the retrofit market, it still makes more sense to reuse the cables in the wall at the old light switch to power the smart switch, rather then having to mess around with changing batteries every few years.

* There may well also be battery options, as there are for the Xioami switches, they come in both battery powered and 2/3 wire powered, but I'd expect wired to be the primary option.

The battery option would be more if you want to put a second light switch at the end of the hall/room where no switch currently exists. It can also help with issues around two way switching.

What is unknown, is if the wired ones will actually control the circuit running to the ceiling lights or not. If you hit the switch will it:

1) cut the power to the ceiling lights or
2) will it be just sending an "off" command to the Hue lights to soft turn off, not actually cutting power

The former would work with both Hue lights and standard lights, the latter will work only with Hue lights.

Either is technically easily doable, you could even make it an option in the software config, so you could do both. So this question comes more down to the business decision for Philips. Do they just want to force people into buying Hue bulbs or do they want to open up the market to actual smart switches too?

Thats pretty much my hunch as well, the smart switch will be powered by the 220v, but the question is will it control the circuit via an internal relay or dimmer for that circuit, or will it simply send in/off/dimm commands to hue bulbs.

So in essence, will the philpps implementation effectively be like a fibaro type module using ZigBee.

I think there will still be an issue/concern around the need for neutral or not, which might cause problems for retrofits here.

paulbok

bk wrote: »

I think you guys need to define what you mean by "wireless". There are two parts here, comms and power.

- Comms - How these devices communicate with the base, Zigbee wireless versus cat5, etc.
- Power - How you power the smart switch, battery or using 2 or 3 wire power cable.

For Comms I fully expect that they will use Zigbee wireless. As do all other Hue products.

But for the power, I suspect most of them * will use the 2/3 wires that are normally at the light switch to power them.

Even for the retrofit market, it still makes more sense to reuse the cables in the wall at the old light switch to power the smart switch, rather then having to mess around with changing batteries every few years.

* There may well also be battery options, as there are for the Xioami switches, they come in both battery powered and 2/3 wire powered, but I'd expect wired to be the primary option.

The battery option would be more if you want to put a second light switch at the end of the hall/room where no switch currently exists. It can also help with issues around two way switching.

What is unknown, is if the wired ones will actually control the circuit running to the ceiling lights or not. If you hit the switch will it:

1) cut the power to the ceiling lights or
2) will it be just sending an "off" command to the Hue lights to soft turn off, not actually cutting power

The former would work with both Hue lights and standard lights, the latter will work only with Hue lights.

Either is technically easily doable, you could even make it an option in the software config, so you could do both. So this question comes more down to the business decision for Philips. Do they just want to force people into buying Hue bulbs or do they want to open up the market to actual smart switches too?

The 2 existing options I know of for smart switches, LightwaveRF and Xiaomi have both wired (power) smart switched and full wireless switches that can be put anywhere like the Hue dimmer.

I'm hoping it is the former of your options, that they kill the power to the light fitting, otherwise they are just fancy and expensive (I expect a pricepoint of €40-50 per 1 gang switch) hue dimmer switches.
If you have light fittings that don't have a smart bulb available - I have a 9 gu4 bulb ceiling light and matching 3 bulb table lamp in one room that I won't change just to fit smart bulbs in, so I believe this is the market they are aiming for.
Truly smart switches for regular bulbs and/or Hue kit for when you want that functionality.

b.gud

bk wrote: »

b.gud probably best to ask over on the Sonoff thread, you are more likely to get an answer there.

Thanks thought that might be the case but figured I'd try here first as it was about switches

bk

wexfordman2 wrote: »

I think there will still be an issue/concern around the need for neutral or not, which might cause problems for retrofits here.

Fibaro dimmers and Xioami switches can work without Neutral, so it is possible. But yes it does complicate things.

bk

paulbok wrote: »

I'm hoping it is the former of your options, that they kill the power to the light fitting, otherwise they are just fancy and expensive (I expect a pricepoint of €40-50 per 1 gang switch) hue dimmer switches.

I'd hope they support both options myself, configurable in software.

There are folks like me, who have all Hue bulbs, who don't need the option of cutting power and might just be looking for a nicer looking, more "normal" alternative to the Hue wireless dimmer switch. I'm sure there any many of us with lots of Hue bulbs who would happily buy a switch like this.

Then there are people like yourself, who have lots of bulbs off one switch and just want a smart switch that is within the Hue ecosystem.

However you can see why this option might not be in Philips short term business interest.

But I do think it would be in Philips long term interest to support both options. Even people who initially buy into the Hue ecosystem just for a smart switch, in time I'm certain would eventually start converting at lest some lights to Hue bulbs and also end up buying motion sensors. White Ambiance and colour are worth having and those of us who have bought into Hue know the addiction is strong once you start.

So I do think Philips should support both, that it will benefit them long term.

But I don't know if they will, we will have to wait and see unfortunately.

wexfordman2

bk wrote: »

Fibaro dimmers and Xioami switches can work without Neutral, so it is possible. But yes it does complicate things.

Any link in the switches ? My understanding was that on.off switching was a challenge as without a neutral the switch needed to allow a trickle current flow through ?


Dimming without a neutral is straightforward enough, but on/off is a challenge ?

Nelbert

b.gud wrote: »

So I've moved into a new house and I was planning on adding a few SonOff touch light switches. I read the earlier post about needing the neutral wire so I opened up one of the light switches and I'm happy to say I think I have the required wires, picture below. Just wondering is there anything else I need to consider before installing one?

My advice would be to check some more switches before going one way or another. I've some newer wiring in an extension which has a neutral but the rest of my switches don't have a neutral. Just a word of caution from experience.

bk

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Any link in the switches ? My understanding was that on.off switching was a challenge as without a neutral the switch needed to allow a trickle current flow through ?


Dimming without a neutral is straightforward enough, but on/off is a challenge ?

These lads:
https://www.gearbest.com/alarm-systems/pp_610096.html?wid=1433363#goodsDetail

There are also the LightwaveRF switches, they work too. In the case of LED's, you need to use dimmable ones, I think behind the scenes they are acting more like dimmer switches, even if only one button.

b.gud

Nelbert wrote: »

My advice would be to check some more switches before going one way or another. I've some newer wiring in an extension which has a neutral but the rest of my switches don't have a neutral. Just a word of caution from experience.

Thanks for the tip. Had seen that mentioned somewhere else in my research so opened a few switches and they are the same as the one I posted so I should be good to go but will def be opening up all the switches I plan on putting 1 in before I place the order