mandatory travel request - Young kids, and bday

LegacyUser

Hi,

Going anon for this one.

I work for a mulitnational, travel is not require my role 10+ years in role.

Some Testing coming up, the requirement is to travel to do this on site, in another continent for a number weeks.

Apart from leaving my OH at home to look after 2 toddlers my little ones Birthday falls during this time and I really don't want to miss it, or let them down by not being here.

I've explained this to my boss, that I would go after the birthday but was told no, has to be original dates, there is no work around.

This Testing can be done remotely all accesses are available, just easier with timezones etc to do in the other country.

What are peoples opinions here? I am very tempted to just say I will follow, and deal with the consequences , or am I being a bit precious ?

Thanks for Reading

skallywag

There is a very similar thread in this exact same forum, is this the same one OP?

My own opinion is that a toddler's birthday does not justify a refusal to go, and if one of my own team took a similar stance then I would take a very dim view of it to be honest.

ELM327

If you've asked and they've said no, clearly you have two options.
Stay at home, miss the training and accept the (justified) actions and consequences
Go to the training, keep your job.

I know if I had to organise and coordinate a global training and someone expected me to take into account their kids birthdays I'd laugh at them tbh.

davo10

[anon] wrote: »

Hi,

Going anon for this one.

I work for a mulitnational, travel is not require my role 10+ years in role.

Some Testing coming up, the requirement is to travel to do this on site, in another continent for a number weeks.

Apart from leaving my OH at home to look after 2 toddlers my little ones Birthday falls during this time and I really don't want to miss it, or let them down by not being here.

I've explained this to my boss, that I would go after the birthday but was told no, has to be original dates, there is no work around.

This Testing can be done remotely all accesses are available, just easier with timezones etc to do in the other country.

What are peoples opinions here? I am very tempted to just say I will follow, and deal with the consequences , or am I being a bit precious ?

Thanks for Reading

A lot of us have to miss birthdays and other family events because of work, what are the implications for you if you refuse? Personally I think supporting my family would be more important, if a refusal effects your job, it effects your family.

Cushie Butterfield

This, like the similar other thread is not a work problem, & would only become one if you refuse to comply with your employer’s request.

PlaneSpeeking

I may be biased but, I once worked in an office with three other women, all of whom had children.

The office brought in a rule that phones had to manned from 7am each day. The boss agreed, four week rota, four of us.

After my week I was asked to cover the next week as X had childcare issues.

Long story short - 11 months and I worked from 7am to 5pm each day. Then they tried to screw me on taking the flexi time!!!!

Union got me paid for it!!!

TL:DR - No one cares - do your job. The kid won't remember a parent wasn't at the party when the first shiny paper comes out.

idnkph

Its a birthday! It's no big deal. Celebrate it with your family when you come home. I don't get the big "I have to be with my kids on their birthday" thing. Its just another day.
Is earning the crust for your family not more important?

cagefactor

delay the party by a week

Ronin247

If it is not part of your job then you are not obliged to travel. If the company feel it is easier for them to send you rather than do the testing remotely, why should you not feel it is easier for you to refuse to go because it suits you.

ELM327

Ronin247 wrote: »

If it is not part of your job then you are not obliged to travel. If the company feel it is easier for them to send you rather than do the testing remotely, why should you not feel it is easier for you to refuse to go because it suits you.

I guess the contract of employment will have a catch all.
especially as a multinational.

Ronin247

[anon] wrote: »

Hi,

Going anon for this one.

I work for a mulitnational, travel is not require my role 10+ years in role.

Some Testing coming up, the requirement is to travel to do this on site, in another continent for a number weeks.

.........................................................


This Testing can be done remotely all accesses are available, just easier with timezones etc to do in the other country.

..................
Thanks for Reading

ELM327 wrote: »

I guess the contract of employment will have a catch all.
especially as a multinational.

If travel hasn't been a requirement for ten plus years good luck enforcing that contract.

The company has a few other options, remote testing or moving the date but will do neither. The op (whilst perhaps being a little precious) would prefer to put family first which I think is to be admired. Nobody ever said "I wish I had worked more" on their deathbed.

I have worked and missed family events, I cannot remember what I worked for but I can remember what events I missed. If the OP feels justified in refusing then they are entitled to refuse.

ELM327

Ronin247 wrote: »

If travel hasn't been a requirement for ten plus years good luck enforcing that contract.

The company has a few other options, remote testing or moving the date but will do neither. The op (whilst perhaps being a little precious) would prefer to put family first which I think is to be admired. Nobody ever said "I wish I had worked more" on their deathbed.

I have worked and missed family events, I cannot remember what I worked for but I can remember what events I missed. If the OP feels justified in refusing then they are entitled to refuse.

As the employer will be entitled to enforce the contract and sack the OP.

skallywag

Ronin247 wrote: »

The company has a few other options, remote testing or moving the date but will do neither.

If the work can really be done just as effectively remotely then I would imagine that the employer would most definitely take this option. Sending employees to a different continent for a number of weeks tends to be avoided if at all possible, due to the cost alone for one thing.

As for moving the date, are you seriously suggesting that a company should take occasions such as toddler birthday's into account when planning projects / tasks? I agree that employers should be as accommodating as possible when it comes to family life, but not to the point where a team member's young kid's birthday is dictating my project plan ...

Ronin247

ELM327 wrote: »

As the employer will be entitled to enforce the contract and sack the OP.

Are you missing the bit about travel not being a requirement (require) for the last ten years ?? No company can suddenly decide that you are obliged to travel.

davo10

Ronin247 wrote: »

Are you missing the bit about travel not being a requirement (require) for the last ten years ?? No company can suddenly decide that you are obliged to travel.

I disagree with you on this, if your job is to run tests and your employer deems it necessary for you to be on site to do that job, there isn't a law against this that I'm aware of. The op is well within his/her right to refuse, but so don't see how that will reflect well on him/her. If it is not unusual for this type of testing in the IT industry, the it is not unusual for the employer to provide that service. I've never worked for a multinational, so I don't know what their response is likely to be.

Ronin247

skallywag wrote: »

If the work can really be done just as effectively remotely then I would imagine that the employer would most definitely take this option. Sending employees to a different continent for a number of weeks tends to be avoided if at all possible, due to the cost alone for one thing.

As for moving the date, are you seriously suggesting that a company should take occasions such as toddler birthday's into account when planning projects / tasks? I agree that employers should be as accommodating as possible when it comes to family life, but not to the point where a team member's young kid's birthday is dictating my project plan ...

There is no obligation on the op to travel. The op has presented their objection to travel and the company is not entitled to try and force someone to do something they don't want to.

I agree that employees should be as accommodating as possible when it comes to work, but not to the point where a project plan is dictating their families life.

wexie

[anon] wrote: »

This Testing can be done remotely all accesses are available, just easier with timezones etc to do in the other country.

If anything goes wrong with the testing, who would need to resolve it?
And would it be possible to do that remotely?

In my experience it's not the testing they want people onsite for but the quick response if the testing doesn't go so well....

Mr.S wrote: »

If you can really remote test from here, then I would try and get that approved, and just work the hours of the local site. Any sane employer should accept that, unless there is actually a benefit to you being on-site.

And no sane employer would have a) the expenses of sending someone abroad for a few weeks and b) a pissed off employee (important enough to be sending abroad) if there wasn't a good enough reason for it.

Stheno

davo10 wrote: »

I disagree with you on this, if your job is to run tests and your employer deems it necessary for you to be on site to do that job, there isn't a law against this that I'm aware of. The op is well within his/her right to refuse, but so don't see how that will reflect well on him/her. If it is not unusual for this type of testing in the IT industry, the it is not unusual for the employer to provide that service. I've never worked for a multinational, so I don't know what their response is likely to be.

its most likely there is a clause in ops contract stating that they may occasionally be required to work at other locations


i normally work regular 9_5 weekday hours but will be spending a weekend testing soon due to a project first time in years its happened

wexie

Stheno wrote: »

its most likely there is a clause in ops contract stating that they may occasionally be required to work at other locations

according to business needs yada yada yada yada

Stheno

wexie wrote: »

according to business needs yada yada yada yada

exactly

Best suggestion here, postpone birthday party til you are back. Kid wont have a clue.

I suspect though, as a woman, this is not about a kids birthday but an amount of grief coming from your other half.

As a mum and someone who has worked for a multinational for years, as has my OH, you pick your battles. This one is a no brainer. Go on the trip, and postpone that birthday.

Gavlor

Can you remember everyone that attended your 2nd birthday party??

It’s your job, either quit and look for another or do what Ian being asked but it’s not a big ask in fairness. I don’t really get the conundrum here

Corca Baiscinn

AS OP's Birthday child is still a toddler I think it is OP and his/her OH who are making the big deal out of absence of the parent for the actual day of the Birthday. If it was an 18th/21st/Graduation etc the child might tbe resentful at parents absence but a toddler can easily be persuaded that this year imagine theyll have 2 Birthday celebrations, one on the day and another one when Mammy/Daddy gets back. As for you not wanting to miss a significant day of remembrance with your OH of the day your tot was born, it can be shared over whatsapp/skype, whatever.

Saying, as you do OP that you don't want to leave your partner to cope alone for some weeks is totally understandable but making such a big deal of the actual Birthday is misguided imo. When your chld is in school he/she will become more dogmatic about Birthdays but toddlers are malleable

zoe 3619

As above,either have a delayed birthday celebration on your return,or let the rest of the family celebrate in your absence and have a cinema and mcdonalds day with the child when you get back.
We had to that-me with baby in hospital.Felt awful for the toddler whose birthday it was,but they had no idea and had a cake and presents a few days late.
Might get harder once they're old enough to read a calender,and I know it's sad not being there,but life is about compromises.

ELM327

Stheno wrote: »

its most likely there is a clause in ops contract stating that they may occasionally be required to work at other locations


i normally work regular 9_5 weekday hours but will be spending a weekend testing soon due to a project first time in years its happened

Same.
The only thing is 2 weeks notice required.
Apart from that it's "as needed by the business" etc


Some here don't believe it of course :rolleyes:

skallywag

Ronin247 wrote: »

There is no obligation on the op to travel. The op has presented their objection to travel and the company is not entitled to try and force someone to do something they don't want to.

I also have no obligation to travel, and have no statement concerning travel in my employment contract. Frankly I don't like being away, and I make no secret of this.

That said, the need to travel does crop up from time to time. If I was to dig my heels in and refuse over something as relatively frivolous as my young kid's birthday, then I'm pretty sure that I would not be playing the role that I currently am before too long.

The company where I work are genuinely great with respect to work-life-balance etc. and there is never an issue with flexitime for any family issues, etc. I can disappear for an afternoon for my kid's party and nobody will bat an eyelid. Refusing to travel though for said party would be just taking the piss.

Dublinflyer

How long are they expecting you to be away form home? You mentioned a couple of weeks, is that 2 weeks or 5 weeks? Does the birthday fall over a weekend and is there an option of coming home if it is on a day you are not working. Depending on where you are this is workable, I did it once and it is tiring, and there is a cost of course. Has a party been arranged to celebrate the day and why is it so important to be there.

How long have you been working on the project and how much notice did you have for the travel. If it was short notice then I can understand you objecting if it is a challenge for you, it's a different story if you were made aware of it 6 months ago. Is this a case that you just don't want to travel and are using this as an excuse. There is nothing wrong if you don't, lots of people hate work travel, but using something as an excuse and not being honest is not the best approach. The birthday may be the most important date of the year to you but your manager may not share that view and can't understand why it's so important.

There are some direct questions there, don't take the tone in the wrong way. I am just trying to establish the facts. I spent a long time working in the aviation sector where people travelled all the time and now working in IT with a global team (sounds impressive, not really though as it's only 12 people!) and there is a lot of travel.

There is a lot of talk about work-life balance and that is an important thing to have but there are 2 sides there and sometimes people forgot that. Yes an employer needs to be flexible but so does the employee. You can't just say work-life balance if you are getting asked to do something that does not suit you and use that as a reason not to do it. People here have also said that the employer can enforce a term in your contact and if you don't agree they will sack you. You may work for an american company (guess) but we are not in america. It would be a brave company that would go straight to dismissal if you are a long service person without due process. You may get a warning and it could damage your chance at promotion in the future but you would be unlikely to get fired for something like this, depending on the full facts.

wexie

Dublinflyer wrote: »

People here have also said that the employer can enforce a term in your contact and if you don't agree they will sack you. You may work for an american company (guess) but we are not in america. It would be a brave company that would go straight to dismissal if you are a long service person without due process.

They won't. Once OP decides to refuse that will be that, chances are it will never be mentioned again, but chances are it won't be forgotten again either.

Dublinflyer wrote: »

You may get a warning and it could damage your chance at promotion in the future but you would be unlikely to get fired for something like this, depending on the full facts.

I'd be shocked if there would even be as much as a warning, in my experience working for (american) multinationals it will never come up again, but it will never be forgotten again either and will definitely harm future prospects.

The higher up (more specialized) you become the more chances you'll be asked/needed to do something out of the ordinary such as travel etc. etc.

You want to be the expert, the 'goto guy' then don't turn an opportunity like this down. Nobody wants to have a 'goto guy' they can't actually go to when the excrement hits the windmaking device.

If this project is important enough to send someone from Ireland abroad for a few weeks, with all the associated costs, then chances are it's a project with a fair bit of visibility. If OP is currently the man associated with this project people will wonder why he's not seeing it through to the end.

In short.....there is no way he can refuse to do this without it reflecting badly on him. Not in this scenario, not over a toddlers birthday.

anyways, just my 2cents.

Dublinflyer

wexie wrote: »

In short.....there is no way he can refuse to do this without it reflecting badly on him. Not in this scenario, not over a toddlers birthday.

Completely agree, that's the real damage here assuming you want to progress in a company. Sometimes you have to take one on the chin knowing that you will come out better in the long run. In saying that, if the OP has already raised serious objections the damage may already be done.

seamus

I don't see a child's birthday as a "frivolous" reason to stay at home tbh. Family comes first and if an employer doesn't accept that, then they don't respect you. I'd suggest a compromise which allows you to fly home for the relevant days, or to shift the training period to accommodate.

Everyone else has made the rest of the case here. Your contract says nothing requiring international travel, so you can dig your heels in. They cannot discipline you, but you will have to accept that it's going to reflect badly on you and may require you to move company in the medium term.

Similarly I do not have an international travel requirement in my contract and I specifically asked about it during the negotiations and was told, "only if you want to".

Since then several incidents have come up with clients demanding people onsite in another continent within 48 hours and I've point blank refused. All necessary work can be done remotely, I'm not leaving my family at short notice so that a client can feel warm and fuzzy that there are people on site. Give me 3-4 weeks notice, and I'll certainly give it more consideration; but my family will have a veto on it if necessary. But short notice, unless it's make-or-break for the company, nope, not even considering it.

JustAThought

You muddied the waters badly throwing in a toddlers birthday which makes you sound like a good caring father and decent family man but which really wouldnt hold much ground or make you seem very business credible or professional in an international business needs sector.

How many weeks is it for? 2? 7? 5? What is the contingency for extension if problems arise? And how far away?Brazil?China?USA/Alaska?

You could have some arguing clout that you do not want to be seperated from your wife and child for 5 weeks and ask that they fly you home for a 4 day weekend every 2 weeks or ask that they rent an appartment and pay for her and the child to fly out and be with you when you are there. Might not work if your wife works but might be an interesting family adventure. Of course it might be a country filled with danger and diseases and not a good environment for a toddler ! Could set an interesting precedent for others and apartliving is a big saving on hotels/meals and dining out bills - not to mention far better than hotel/bedsit living for 5 weeks!.