Rewiring/New Build:- The pros and cons of wiring cat5 to light switches.

wexfordman2

This topic has come up a few times with different threads, and has sparked some debate at times, so was thinking it might deserve its own thread for discussion. I am partly creating it now, cos Ive gotten round to doing a few things with it that I have said were possible, but never got round to doing it.

My house, has cat5 wired to all light switches, primarily because my smart lighting system (velbus) works this way, but I have always argued that irrespective of your lighitng system, cat 5 is a valuable resource to have at your lightswitch offering loads of potential benefits.

Why ?
Certainly not for ethernet, although it could be used for this, that is not the primary aim.
The primary aim is to provide an alternative interface/manual input to trigger events that can activate a multitude of different "things".

Once you have cat 5, you have the option of adding some active devices (eg smart panels such as knx/eib/cbus/velbus and a multitude of others)

Also you have the option of using simple contact closures to trigger events (such as turn a light on, send a commant to hue/smart things, trigger a scene in hue/smart things etc). These contact closures can be a for example, a standard light switch with on/off state, a momentary light switch etc.

With a single cat 5, you have the option of up to 4 different inputs, the equivilant of a 4 gang lightswitch!

Now, these individual inputs can control a multitude of different devices, hue bulbs, ostam, lightify, smart things, and also more professional level hardwired systems such as cbus etc.


How can an event be triggered ?
The way I have it working, is I have installed OPENHAB on a rasperry PI. Openhab has literally hundreds of interfaces to most smart home systems, you would be hard pushed to find somehting it does not support.
Once you interface your individual inputs to openhab, you can then define rules on what that input does, and those rules can as mentioned trigger events across a range of different smart home devices.

Interfacing digital inputs to openhab
there are lots of ways of doing this, for me, I have done it using my existing velbus system as it was the most logical way of doing it. I can add additional inputs by adding 8 channel input devices to my velbus if I need to.

Examples of what can be done
in my scenario, I have around most of the house, wall switches which are momentary contact light swithes wired to velbus inputs. These inputs in the main simply trigger a velbus light on/off, but I am starting to add some hue lamps (bedside lamps, table lamps etc), and I can now activate these through my wall switches, and enact scenes through this wall switch as well.
I can have a wall switch where one gang operates velbus light, a second gang operates a hue lamp, and a third triggers a scene for example.

Other options
Once you have the ability to provide digital inputs to openhab, you can then begin to interface add door contacts and PIR's etc to your smart lighting system (be it hue etc). So rather than having wireless zigbeen/zwave pirs and door sensors etc, you can use wired sensors (cheaper and more reliable) to talk to hue directly. This also allows you apply a lot more logic using event triggers, conditional actions etc etc.

bk

Sorry, pulling this conversation over from the Hue thread.

Yes, gothca now, that you are talking about purely new build/major refurb.

But we are not talking about extra switches, we are talking about the same light swiitches, just with cat5 to them (and to my mind, no 220v tbh, but thats a side matter)

Though pulling cat5 is going to cost you too. I just wonder how much it would cost extra per switch, but in terms of labour and the cable.

Though I don't think I'd recommend not running 220v to the switch. What if you sell the place and move out? Those folks might just want standard switches. I don't think I'd recommend that.

I have 24 light switch locations in my house, that is 1200 euro just on fibaro modules, never mind the fact than a number of them are 2/3 gang and the space issues etc.

Those same 24 circuits on a wired system using cat5 to the wall switch will cost me under 800 euro!!

There is no comparison in price BK, individual fibaro modules, while a good solution for a refit, are expensive in comparison.

Ah, that is a very big house! Yes, I agree that size house, with that many switches the cost would probably tip it over in favour of running cat5

I was thinking more along the lines of a typical 3 bed semi that most people live in. Then I don't think there would be much if any cost difference.

BTW If you were to go with the sonoff or xaimoi switch options, they are actually cheaper then a typical momentary switch, so the cost of those would likely be a lot cheaper then cat5 + momentary switch.

24 sonoff switches would cost you just €432, which is cheaper then your €800, which I suspect doesn't include the cost of the momentary switches.

But then you have to wonder about the reliability of sonoff, xiaomi, etc. So pros and cons.

I think there is definitely lots of merit in your suggestion of using cat5, but I'm also not sure it is a slam dunk.

How many threads do we have on this forum with people having problems with wireless sensors/bulbs etc not working, or going off line ?

On this one, I've had zero reliability issues with the Xiaomi PIR's they seem to be rock solid. In fact I've had no issues with the SmartThings PIR's either. It is the SmartThings door/window contact sensor that have been troublesome.

wexfordman2

bk wrote: »

Sorry, pulling this conversation over from the Hue thread.

Yes, gothca now, that you are talking about purely new build/major refurb.



Though pulling cat5 is going to cost you too. I just wonder how much it would cost extra per switch, but in terms of labour and the cable.

Pulling cat 5 is dirt cheap, and negligable when talking about the cost of a refurb. 300M of cat5, cost about 50 euro. The labour, no different than wiring with 220v. I would advocate replacing the 220v entirely, so there would be no differnce in cost from a labour perspecitve (in actual fact, if you look at the wiring of a standard house, and the wiring of a smart system, the smart system is simpler, and uses less 220v cabling).

bk wrote: »

Though I don't think I'd recommend not running 220v to the switch. What if you sell the place and move out? Those folks might just want standard switches. I don't think I'd recommend that.

A proper smart home should look and feel no different to a standard one, the smarts should be invisible, a user should not notice the difference between one or the other. The presence of 220v wiring behind the wall switches should not make any difference to a user or buyer.

But I apprecaite people may think differently, but if your putting in a smart system, you plan it iwth technology that is going to last, not fade out in a decade. This sort of stuff is/was standard on high end homes, but its now affordable and nothing new.

bk wrote: »

Ah, that is a very big house! Yes, I agree that size house, with that many switches the cost would probably tip it over in favour of running cat5

I was thinking more along the lines of a typical 3 bed semi that most people live in. Then I don't think there would be much if any cost difference.

A three bedroom semi, with say 12 lighting circuits

600 euro just for z wave modules,
700 for a wired solution.

So, slightly more expensive, not considering for more complex wiring for 2 way switching using fibaro etc).

The cost difference is negligable, and in relation to the cost of a build, completely insignificant but far more reliable, scaleable and adaptable.

bk wrote: »

BTW If you were to go with the sonoff or xaimoi switch options, they are actually cheaper then a typical momentary switch, so the cost of those would likely be a lot cheaper then cat5 + momentary switch.

Yep, but i wouldnt touch either of these systems to be honest, not when I am building/remodelling for something that is to last decades and be 100% reliable. These are just too flakey, as a product themselves, but also, using wireless when you can avoid it is always the best route.

Sonoff are wireless 2.4Ghz wifi, how long before wireless standards are upgraded, superceded, compared to how long your house is going to last.

bk wrote: »

24 sonoff switches would cost you just €432, which is cheaper then your €800, which I suspect doesn't include the cost of the momentary switches.

No, I was comparing the fibaro wireless v wired solution, and both of these would have required momentary switches, so cost comparison did not need to include those.

24 sonoff switches would cost you just €432, which is But then you have to wonder about the reliability of sonoff, xiaomi, etc. So pros and cons. [/QUOTE]

Nail on head. Fine for refit and to play around with from a hobby perspective, but not much beyond that.

bk wrote: »

I think there is definitely lots of merit in your suggestion of using cat5, but I'm also not sure it is a slam dunk.

In the case of a new build or full rewire, there is no comparison. Would you serioulsy when building a new house, put in a backbone lighting system based on a wireless technology ?

I make a living in the wireless arena, and I can tell you , I would not in a second even dream of doing something like that.

bk wrote: »

On this one, I've had zero reliability issues with the Xiaomi PIR's they seem to be rock solid. In fact I've had no issues with the SmartThings PIR's either. It is the SmartThings door/window contact sensor that have been troublesome.

You may not have had much trouble, but you have had some trouble, with the smart things devices, and there are lots of posts about people having problems with hue connectivity, with servers being down etc. Nope, sorry, i cant agree here, the approach is to avoid wireless if at all possible.

bk

I was going to write a point by point response, but life is too short :P

My overall point is that your solution is yes a very nice one. But it definitely isn't cheap, your fooling yourself that it is. Z-wave in most cases will be a bit cheaper and sonoff is likely two to three times cheaper.

If you have the extra money and have a really big house. Sure go for it. It is never wrong to go wired (security system, ethernet for wifi backhaul, cat6 for hdmi/cctv, etc.). But it is almost always more expensive.

It is up to each person to decide for themselves if it is worth paying the premium or not. But lets not pretend or mislead people into thinking it is cheap.

But I do think the wireless gear has really come along in the last few years and at least for command and control is good enough in most cases. Most new security system installs today are doing wireless and that says a lot.

BTW One point, you question if wifi will be around in future. Yes, wifi will be around 50 years from now and beyond. Even as wifi moves on, it is still backwards compatible. I suspect it will be way easier to get 2.4GHz wifi gear 50 years from now then your Velbus gear.

I think 50 years from now there will be very little or no wired gear in the consumer market. There will still probably be in the commercial market, but then you will be paying more expensive commercial prices. I think the way that the consumer market is going is all wireless.

listermint

Im refurbishing, im pulling Cat 5 to every switch and also 220v.

why ?

its cheap, why not, i may find some use for it that i have not considered yet.

bk

listermint wrote: »

Im refurbishing, im pulling Cat 5 to every switch and also 220v.

why ?

its cheap, why not, i may find some use for it that i have not considered yet.

Make sure to run a Neutral to each switch and spec deep back boxes, for best compatibility.

wexfordman2

bk wrote: »

I was going to write a point by point response, but life is too short :P

My overall point is that your solution is yes a very nice one. But it definitely isn't cheap, your fooling yourself that it is.

Sorry BK, I think thats a bit misleading. We have affordable/inexpensive, and we have "cheap"

bk wrote: »

Z-wave in most cases will be a bit cheaper

Except that I have shown you 2 specific examples where a wired scenario is either singifciantly cheaper, or neglibible difference.

bk wrote: »

and sonoff is likely two to three times cheaper.

And here, you use the correct term..."cheap", and thats what sonoff is. Its not a system that I would recomend anyone put into a new build, or form part of a full system.

bk wrote: »

If you have the extra money and have a really big house. Sure go for it. It is never wrong to go wired (security system, ethernet for wifi backhaul, cat6 for hdmi/cctv, etc.). But it is almost always more expensive.

Thats not correct BK, it is not always more expensive, and in both examples I gave you, it is either significantly cheaper, or negligably different in cost comparison. It is not more expensive.

bk wrote: »

It is up to each person to decide for themselves if it is worth paying the premium or not. But lets not pretend or mislead people into thinking it is cheap.

Thats unfair BK, I am neither pretending nor misleading, the facts speak for themselves. Ive given you examples of where wired is cheaper, more reliable and more flexible. Ive given you examples where the cost comparison for smaller developments is negligable, and why go for a substandard solution when the difference in price is peanuts ? When spending 300-400k on a house, the cost difference is laughable.

bk wrote: »

But I do think the wireless gear has really come along in the last few years and at least for command and control is good enough in most cases.

It has come along, in leaps and bounds, and wireless has its place...as a fall back for when you cannot deploy wired.

bk wrote: »

Most new security system installs today are doing wireless and that says a lot.

yep, it says that security firms find deploying wireless is cheaper from a refit perspecitve, which is where most of the market is. They would be happier throwing in a few battery operatored wireless sensors that they need to come back and maintain every few years, than wired ones that require little no services.

bk wrote: »

BTW One point, you question if wifi will be around in future. Yes, wifi will be around 50 years from now and beyond. Even as wifi moves on, it is still backwards compatible.

A fair point, legacy tends to be carried over, but for how long ? Once the market shows that certain devices are not out in the world anymore, then legacy support will end. And there are lots of examples of wifi connectivity and compatiblity issues with routers etc, it is certainly not as reliable as wired.

bk wrote: »

I suspect it will be way easier to get 2.4GHz wifi gear 50 years from now then your Velbus gear.

Well, if your up for a bet :-) I have a 10 year headstart on my wired system compared to sonoff (and thats from a physical installed perspective).

The makers of my system have been around for decades, the technology is not new. Looking at similar systems, EIB, CBUS, KNX etc, all wired systems consisting of simple elements, relays and backbone wiring, deployed for decades in critical environments, in factories, hotels, houses etc, proven, reliable, solid, and now very much affordable.

bk wrote: »

I think 50 years from now there will be very little or no wired gear in the consumer market. There will still probably be in the commercial market, but then you will be paying more expensive commercial prices. I think the way that the consumer market is going is all wireless.

I gaurantee you there will be lots of wired in the market in 50 years time. In fifty years time, houses will not be wired in the way they are today, they will have smart backbone, comprising of structured data wiring for data and automation, and then relays, dimmers, led controllers etc being managed throught that backbone. I absoltely gaurantee it, it will be the standard way of wiring a house.

Essentially what we are talking about here is carrying over proven reliable industry and commerical standards into the home. Wireless lightbulbs are not the future.

bk

wexfordman2 wrote: »

I gaurantee you there will be lots of wired in the market in 50 years time. In fifty years time, houses will not be wired in the way they are today, they will have smart backbone, comprising of structured data wiring for data and automation, and then relays, dimmers, led controllers etc being managed throught that backbone. I absoltely gaurantee it, it will be the standard way of wiring a house.

Essentially what we are talking about here is carrying over proven reliable industry and commerical standards into the home. Wireless lightbulbs are not the future.

I see no evidence of that in the market. I see little or no activity from the wired companies and in fact some shutting down or going commercial only. Almost all the new gear in the consumer market is wireless.

Hue, Ikea, Sonoff, Xiamoi, SmartThingss, tons of Z-Wave and zigbee gear. All smart thermostats are wireless. All smart bulbs are wireless. All the new "smart" security systems (Nest, Ring, ADT SmartThings, iSimpliSafe, etc.) are wireless. Most of the new IP cams are wireless. Google Home, Echo, etc. all wireless.

I can't honestly think of a single advancement in wired tech in the last 5 years in the consumer HA market.

listermint

bk wrote: »

Make sure to run a Neutral to each switch and spec deep back boxes, for best compatibility.

Done that first

new smart switches going in, all require neutral.

wexfordman2

bk wrote: »

I see no evidence of that in the market. I see little or no activity from the wired companies and in fact some shutting down or going commercial only. Almost all the new gear in the consumer market is wireless.




Hue, Ikea, Sonoff, Xiamoi, SmartThingss, tons of Z-Wave and zigbee gear. All smart thermostats are wireless. All smart bulbs are wireless. All the new "smart" security systems (Nest, Ring, ADT SmartThings, iSimpliSafe, etc.) are wireless.

All targetted at the retrofit market, an important market, no doubt about that.

bk wrote: »

Most of the new IP cams are wireless.

Sorry, again, the ones targetted at the retrofit market, and there is a place for some portable wireless cams, yes.

You would be insane to build/rebuild and plan for wireless cameras.

bk wrote: »

Google Home, Echo, etc. all wireless.

As they should be and need to be.

bk wrote: »

I can't honestly think of a single advancement in wired tech in the last 5 years in the consumer HA market.

Eib/cbus/velbus/lutron/loxone/knx/control4/idratek to name but a few, many of them developing and enhancing their products. You need to look beyond wireless solutions.

Hue is targeted at a specific market, I would love to see anyone recommending deploying hue as a full house smart lighting solution in a new build, it would be absolutely insane.

bk

The problem is that the retrofit market is FAR larger then the new build market.

You could of course have two different markets. But what I find happens is that the bigger market ends up subsuming and cannibalising the smaller market. Often a less ideal technology end ups winning because it is good enough. VHS vs Betamax, MP3 vs lossless formats, etc.

Non of the companies you mention above, no consumer would ever have heard of outside hardcore HA fans. I'd be very surprised if many of them will be around in a few years.

I could of course be totally wrong this time. But I don't think I will be.

Again no harm doing wireless if you have the money, no argument there.

Stoner

TBH I think we will have cat5 to switches doing all the power and all the control over fewer cables

I was in Philips earlier in the year and they have 4 office modular lights with 4-5 sensors at each
PIR
Temp
lux
Air quality*
Humidity

* On the way
All from one cat5 Daisy chained

Smart cabled backbone is where a lot of R&D is ATM.

Currently wireless options can't handle the data involved in mapping rooms as it's taking info (particularly movement and temp) measurements so frequently.


Also more great innovation from Holland, wireless heat and humidity sensors that are charged wirelessly via a special router, can be stuck on wet paint, 5M range smaller than a grain of rice and just 20 cent each.

So both are developing, although wireless is getting better , we are gathering data more frequently and doing more with it too, increasing requirements for wireless.

wexfordman2

bk wrote: »

The problem is that the retrofit market is FAR larger then the new build market.

You could of course have two different markets. But what I find happens is that the bigger market ends up subsuming and cannibalising the smaller market. Often a less ideal technology end ups winning because it is good enough. VHS vs Betamax, MP3 vs lossless formats, etc.

Non of the companies you mention above, no consumer would ever have heard of outside hardcore HA fans. I'd be very surprised if many of them will be around in a few years.

I could of course be totally wrong this time. But I don't think I will be.

Again no harm doing wireless if you have the money, no argument there.

BK, until 2 years ago, no consumer would have even understood the concept of a smart light bulb, it's definitely opened up the view of smart homes to the general public, it has made the concept more widely known, and more accepted.

People will begin to think about smart homes as part of the design phase when building homes, which is the point that they should be considering it. It is then when the options of these well known, well supported stable solutions will be exploded and used more.

If you think the likes of eib, knx etc are going to dissapear, your just plain wrong. These are well established technologies, developed and supported for decades, backed by some of the world's largest companies, internationally recognised standards etc.

Sorry BK but that's just plain incorrect.

Mylow

If I was building I would go with KNX for the lighting. You could fit momentary switches onto standard back boxes with ABB US/U2.2 or similar fitted (it can replicate 2 gang switch). You will obviously have to fit assocaited actuators. KNX can can be integrated with Amazon Echo. It wont be the cheapest solution, but it is incredibly versatile.

bk

Stoner wrote: »

TBH I think we will have cat5 to switches doing all the power and all the control over fewer cables

Ah, yes interesting. I assume the PoE would only power the switch, not the lights?

As in a typical wiring today is wired from the junction box -> switch -> bulb.

Now you would have:
"Junction Box" -> cat5 -> wall switch and separately:
"Junction Box" -> 220v -> light

Is that it? Certainly an interesting idea. Though you would lose the backup of just being able to use the normal switch even if your HA tech fails.

BTW Sounds like Philips are working on some really cool stuff. Of course wired still makes complete sense for big office buildings, etc.

wexfordman2 wrote: »

BK, until 2 years ago, no consumer would have even understood the concept of a smart light bulb, it's definitely opened up the view of smart homes to the general public, it has made the concept more widely known, and more accepted.

People will begin to think about smart homes as part of the design phase when building homes, which is the point that they should be considering it. It is then when the options of these well known, well supported stable solutions will be exploded and used more.

If you think the likes of eib, knx etc are going to dissapear, your just plain wrong. These are well established technologies, developed and supported for decades, backed by some of the world's largest companies, internationally recognised standards etc.

Sorry BK but that's just plain incorrect.

Shrug.. Those tech have been around for years and still completely unknown to the public, even mostly amongst interested geeks.

Of course I'm not saying they will disappear, KNX is a standard and heavily used in commercial buildings. But it is expensive and I just don't see it transitioning down into typical home builds.

BTW I can see one really good reason to run cat5 to switches. To allow the option to put touch screen panels in place of a wall switch, to allow control of various HA tech, lighting, heating, etc. All powered by PoE.

But that is at the high end of HA and I'm not sure how much demand there really is for it when people have a phone in their pocket and voice control. A nice to have though.

wexfordman2

Mylow wrote: »

If I was building I would go with KNX for the lighting. You could fit momentary switches onto standard back boxes with ABB US/U2.2 or similar fitted (it can replicate 2 gang switch). You will obviously have to fit assocaited actuators. KNX can can be integrated with Amazon Echo. It wont be the cheapest solution, but it is incredibly versatile.

Yep, a sensible approach, which requires cat5 type cable to the wall switch as I have been advocating.

And there are lots of similar competing (and also cheaper) systems with the same topology and wiring requirements that knx have that would allow you to deploy them either.

It's the topology that I am advocating here, not a specific vendors or product.

wexfordman2

bk wrote: »

Ah, yes interesting. I assume the PoE would only power the switch, not the lights?

As in a typical wiring today is wired from the junction box -> switch -> bulb.

Now you would have:
"Junction Box" -> cat5 -> wall switch and separately:
"Junction Box" -> 220v -> light

Is that it? Certainly an interesting idea. Though you would lose the backup of just being able to use the normal switch even if your HA tech fails.

BTW Sounds like Philips are working on some really cool stuff. Of course wired still makes complete sense for big office buildings, etc.



Shrug.. Those tech have been around for years and still completely unknown to the public, even mostly amongst interested geeks.

Of course I'm not saying they will disappear, KNX is a standard and heavily used in commercial buildings. But it is expensive and I just don't see it transitioning down into typical home builds.

BTW I can see one really good reason to run cat5 to switches. To allow the option to put touch screen panels in place of a wall switch, to allow control of various HA tech, lighting, heating, etc. All powered by PoE.

But that is at the high end of HA and I'm not sure how much demand there really is for it when people have a phone in their pocket and voice control. A nice to have though.

BK,

Firstly, your explanation below, is exactly what I have been talking about

"Now you would have:
"Junction Box" -> cat5 -> wall switch and separately:
"Junction Box" -> 220v -> light"


That's the topology for most if these systems.


Secondly, your point below


"Of course I'm not saying they will disappear, KNX is a standard and heavily used in commercial buildings. But it is expensive and I just don't see it transitioning down into typical home builds"

They won't dissapear, they are currently installed in homes, and there are more affordable and competing wired solutions about the place.



Thirdly your point below

"BTW I can see one really good reason to run cat5 to switches. To allow the option to put touch screen panels in place of a wall switch, to allow control of various HA tech, lighting, heating, etc. All powered by PoE."

Which again is one of the points and logic to deploying cat5 to the wall switch.

Last week, I removed a wall switch which was momentary wired to cat5, and replaced it with a touch sensitive control pad, which could be configured to control pretty much any number of devices and macros in my entire house.



And your fourth point below


"But that is at the high end of HA and I'm not sure how much demand there really is for it when people have a phone in their pocket and voice control. A nice to have though"

No, it is not the high end of the market anymore, there are loads of options and competing products that work this way and they are far from unnafordable.


Seriously, if your ever down the cork side of the country, can show you it in and working, and I am convinced you will change your mind :-).

bk

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Yep, a sensible approach, which requires cat5 type cable to the wall switch as I have been advocating.

And there are lots of similar competing (and also cheaper) systems with the same topology and wiring requirements that knx have that would allow you to deploy them either.

It's the topology that I am advocating here, not a specific vendors or product.

Actually KNX uses it's own cable that is specifically designed to be run alongside power cables.

You can also use UTP/cat5, but that wasn't the original intent and it is a bit of a hack.

UTP (cat5) wasn't really designed to be run alongside power cables and is more susceptible to interference. In many states in the US building fire codes don't allow UTP to be run within 5 inches of power cables.

I'm not sure what building/electrical codes say about it here. Stoner might know better.

BTW KNX is a standard, not a product/vendors. Sort of like a wired z-wave. There are hundreds of vendors using KNX.

bk

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Seriously, if your ever down the cork side of the country, can show you it in and working, and I am convinced you will change your mind :-).

I'm a Corkonian myself Living in Dublin for my sins :eek: I'll take you up some day on that.

bk

wexfordman2 wrote: »

BK,

Firstly, your explanation below, is exactly what I have been talking about

"Now you would have:
"Junction Box" -> cat5 -> wall switch and separately:
"Junction Box" -> 220v -> light"

That's the topology for most if these systems.

There are a few things that worry me about this sort of topology.

What happens if your controller dies? Can you still turn on/off the lights?

At least with a more traditional topology, with a z-wave module behind the switch or even cat5 controller behind a the switch, if the SmartThings hub or your controller goes down, the light switch will continue to work as a normal switch.

I like having a physical backup if things go down/break. I think it is important for reliability.

The other issue would be what if you sell your home. People might not want the fancy HA tech and the cost of maintaining it.

I think in a home environment I'd still recommend running 220v by the switch. Sure, run cat5 too if it is safe to do so. But I'd rather have options. At least in my mind.

wexfordman2

bk wrote: »

I'm a Corkonian myself Living in Dublin for my sins :eek: I'll take you up some day on that.

I'll convert you yet :-)

wexfordman2

bk wrote: »

There are a few things that worry me about this sort of topology.

What happens if your controller dies? Can you still turn on/off the lights?

At least with a more traditional topology, with a z-wave module behind the switch or even cat5 controller behind a the switch, if the SmartThings hub or your controller goes down, the light switch will continue to work as a normal switch.

I like having a physical backup if things go down/break. I think it is important for reliability.[/QUOTE]


If the controller dies, the system keeps working like a traditional light/switch.
Its failsafe, you only lose remote access and automation, everything else keeps working. The modules work independently.

bk wrote: »

The other issue would be what if you sell your home. People might not want the fancy HA tech and the cost of maintaining it.

Yep, fair point, but the reverse of it, is a smart home adds value to your house, one that is reliable, stable and doesnt depend on multiple hubs, wireless coverage, etc.

bk wrote: »

I think in a home environment I'd still recommend running 220v by the switch. Sure, run cat5 too if it is safe to do so. But I'd rather have options. At least in my mind.

Cat5 is safe, there are no safey issues with it, and even less so if your wall switch contains no 220v.

Look, we have been wiring houses in exactly the same manner for decades, nothing much has changed in 60 years or more, its still the same topology, that will change eventually. In reality, a wired smart lighting system is an easier install, its as you called it out, cat5 cable from all your light switches, and 220v to all your lights, thats it, it couldnt be simpler. And doing it that way, allows easy upgrades and changes, you can increase a switch from 2 gang to 3 gang, you can change the circuits a switch controls, etc, now physical changes or rewires needed.

wexfordman2

bk wrote: »

Actually KNX uses it's own cable that is specifically designed to be run alongside power cables.

Yep, KNX cable has better shielding etc, but cat cable can be used instead, although the sheilded cable is recommended.

bk wrote: »

You can also use UTP/cat5, but that wasn't the original intent and it is a bit of a hack.

yep, but also, if your going installing KNX from day one, the decision has already been made to wire cat cable to all light switches etc, with no mains.

bk wrote: »

UTP (cat5) wasn't really designed to be run alongside power cables and is more susceptible to interference. In many states in the US building fire codes don't allow UTP to be run within 5 inches of power cables./QUOTE]

Cat 5 cable can be run in a house, avoiding interference without too much hassle, but when I say cat5, I am saying it in the general sense of ethernet cabling, and today, I would probably throw in cat6 instead.

bk wrote: »

I'm not sure what building/electrical codes say about it here. Stoner might know better.

BTW KNX is a standard, not a product/vendors. Sort of like a wired z-wave. There are hundreds of vendors using KNX.

Yep, I pointed this out t earlier, it is backed by multiple large players, seimens etc.

Again, the purpose of the discussion here was not to focus on a particular technology/protocol/vendor, but the concept overall of wiring cat cable to wall switches, and even to go for a more modern wiring scenario such as we have discussed.

If I was building/rewiring now, I wouldnt even consider any other approach. In my own house, now, I have only 2 light circuits that are wired the traditional way (one in the attic, and one in the hotpress).

From a reliability, performance, cost, feature, scaleability and adaptability perspective you have so many choices and benefits doing it this way. If you really want a smart home, then its the correct way of doing it.

Stoner

bk wrote:

Ah, yes interesting. I assume the PoE would only power the switch, not the lights?

No. They have 80W available. Lights are 16 Watts each it's all on the one Daisy chained cable

bk

Stoner wrote: »

No. They have 80W available. Lights are 16 Watts each it's all on the one Daisy chained cable

Uhhh.. nice! I knew that the original PoE was only 12W and PoE+ 25W, but that seemed a bit tight to power both a tablet/sensors and a bulb. But I see there is a new PoE standard in development that allows for 50W and 100W, very nice. You could power a tablet and a few LED bulbs off that easily enough.

I admit, this has the potential to change my mind completely on the subject

Though it isn't without issues and challenges:
http://luxreview.com/article/2016/08/what-nobody-tells-you-about-power-over-ethernet

EletricMan

I'm also building a house soon and I'm going to run neutrals to all the light switches. I'm always thinking of putting cat 5/6 to the switches too. Should cat 5/6 be run to the lights aswell or is it pointless?

bk

EletricMan wrote: »

I'm also building a house soon and I'm going to run neutrals to all the light switches. I'm always thinking of putting cat 5/6 to the switches too. Should cat 5/6 be run to the lights aswell or is it pointless?

The PoE stuff we are discussing above is pretty new and I'd suspect expensive.

I'd say for now, run normal 220v to the light switch (with Neutral) and lights and optional run that cat5/6 to the switch too. Running it to the bulb might be overkill.

However also make sure to run at least one separate cat6 to each room for ethernet for future Wifi Access Point use. Think about where this WAP might go, the ideal location is on the ceiling or high on a wall.

Also cat6 can be useful for CCTV cameras and for running HDMI over for TV.

wexfordman2

EletricMan wrote: »

I'm also building a house soon and I'm going to run neutrals to all the light switches. I'm always thinking of putting cat 5/6 to the switches too. Should cat 5/6 be run to the lights aswell or is it pointless?

No need to run cat cable to the light, but definately to the light switch.

Have you considered what kind of system tou are puttin in ?