Rifle cant advice.

ninja7848

Curious. When I level the scope using a level and string with a weight on it. To align crosshairs. So the scope is perfectly level. What’s a good way to ensure the rifle itself is dead level. I have it on a bipod with a sand bag under the stock however. Using just my eyes it looks perfect. 50 yards dead on 100yards 1” high but Perfect. 200yards left of the bull.

cookimonster

How much left of bull and what calibre?

Cass

ninja7848 wrote: »

What’s a good way to ensure the rifle itself is dead level..

A scope/rifle cant level. Like this:

ninja7848

cookimonster wrote: »

How much left of bull and what calibre?

Hi thanks for the reply it’s about 1”to the left. Caliber is 223 using 40g Vmax.
When I zero for 200 yards dead on the bull. It’s 1” high and about 1”right of the bull at 100 yards.

ninja7848

Cass wrote: »

A scope/rifle cant level. Like this:

I get it so one is for the scope the other for the rifle.

ninja7848

Cass wrote: »

A scope/rifle cant level. Like this:

I get it so one is for the scope the other for the rifle.

Cass

Just an example.

I'd go for the rail mounted version. It properly shows the level of the rifle whereas the scope one can be canted itself depending on how well it's mounted. Plus the scope has to be mounted for it to show. You want to see the rifle's cant so go for the rail version.

ninja7848

Cass wrote: »

Just an example.

I'd go for the rail mounted version. It properly shows the level of the rifle whereas the scope one can be canted itself depending on how well it's mounted. Plus the scope has to be mounted for it to show. You want to see the rifle's cant so go for the rail version.

I’m pretty sure that’s my problem alright. As I can check the level of the scope quiet easily but the rifle itself is not so straight forward. Amazing how such a slight imperfection has such an impact on point of impact at longer distance.

Cass

Believe it or not most rifles (depending on twist) will send a bullet to one side regardless of how well a scope is mounted. Or least that is the opinion of most.

If you were to have a perfectly mounted scope in a completely wind free day and fired at 100 yards and everything was prefect then you move out to say 1,000 yards. The bullet would "naturally" be to the right even if there were no environmental factors involved.

The rifling of the barrel, being a right twist, would send the bullet to the right. Not important to 99% of shooters, just a tidbit.

ninja7848

Cass wrote: »

Believe it or not most rifles (depending on twist) will send a bullet to one side regardless of how well a scope is mounted. Or least that is the opinion of most.

If you were to have a perfectly mounted scope in a completely wind free day and fired at 100 yards and everything was prefect then you move out to say 1,000 yards. The bullet would "naturally" be to the right even if there were no environmental factors involved.

The rifling of the barrel, being a right twist, would send the bullet to the right. Not important to 99% of shooters, just a tidbit.

Is this what they call spin drift. I’ve watched long range shooters/snipers talk about it.

Cass

Yup. The gyroscopic motion of the bullet will cause drift in that direction. So right twist rifles will have spin drift to the right.

However as i said this is minimal for the majority of shooters and the shooting they do.

The best way to know if you have cant problems, as opposed to wind/drift problems, is to use the windage adjustment. If you dial all the way from the maximum left setting to the maximum right setting on your scope the bullet at a given distance (say 100 yards) should be to one side but not higher or lower. If it rises/falls as the windage is adjusted then you may have a cant problem.

ninja7848

Cass wrote: »

Yup. The gyroscopic motion of the bullet will cause drift in that direction. So right twist rifles will have spin drift to the right.

However as i said this is minimal for the majority of shooters and the shooting they do.

The best way to know if you have cant problems, as opposed to wind/drift problems, is to use the windage adjustment. If you dial all the way from the maximum left setting to the maximum right setting on your scope the bullet at a given distance (say 100 yards) should be to one side but not higher or lower. If it rises/falls as the windage is adjusted then you may have a cant problem.

So I’m dead on at 50 yards 1”high at 100yards and at 200 yards I’m about 1” left of the bull. Groups realy well with 40g Vmax. No wind at all perfect conditions. When I adjust to the bull at 200 yards about 2 clicks. Now I shoot at 100 yard target and I’m about 1”high and 1” right. It’s consistent. I’m thinking rifle is leaning right with scope dead level.

yubabill

ninja7848 wrote: »

So I’m dead on at 50 yards 1”high at 100yards and at 200 yards I’m about 1” left of the bull. Groups realy well with 40g Vmax. No wind at all perfect conditions. When I adjust to the bull at 200 yards about 2 clicks. Now I shoot at 100 yard target and I’m about 1”high and 1” right. It’s consistent. I’m thinking rifle is leaning right with scope dead level.

A canted rifle usually drops the bullet and sends it in the direction of the cant. You could try and get someone to see if the rifle is canted. If it is, then see if the bullet is going in that direction.

Cass

TBH its hard to diagnose without seeing it in action. When you say no wind, there is rarely a day without any sort of wind/breeze. However slight.

Also 40gr v-max are on the upper end of the speed scale. They are possibly the fastest rounds/bullets there are. Depending on twist rate, harmonics, and whatever environmental factors there are this could also account for some if not all the drift.

It's hard to point to one thing and say "thats the problem". Not dismissing what you're saying, you're shooting so you know better than i what the issues are so it's enitrely possible cant is a factor.

A quick test. Place a target out at 100 yards. On this "target" have an inverted T. Draw it perfectly and as large as you can fit on the paper. The horizontal and vertical lines should be exactly 90 degrees to one another. When placing the target make sure to use a spirit level and make sure the horizontal line i perfectly level with the ground. Zero the rifle for the intersection at the bottom of the inverted T. Now dial up in increments of say 10 MOA. As you dial up, without moving the actual distance to target any cant will show up as a deviation from the vertical line. Kinda like below (excuse the crayon drawing )

ninja7848

Cass wrote: »

TBH its hard to diagnose without seeing it in action. When you say no wind, there is rarely a day without any sort of wind/breeze. However slight.

Also 40gr v-max are on the upper end of the speed scale. They are possibly the fastest rounds/bullets there are. Depending on twist rate, harmonics, and whatever environmental factors there are this could also account for some if not all the drift.

It's hard to point to one thing and say "thats the problem". Not dismissing what you're saying, you're shooting so you know better than i what the issues are so it's enitrely possible cant is a factor.

A quick test. Place a target out at 100 yards. On this "target" have an inverted T. Draw it perfectly and as large as you can fit on the paper. The horizontal and vertical lines should be exactly 90 degrees to one another. When placing the target make sure to use a spirit level and make sure the horizontal line i perfectly level with the ground. Zero the rifle for the intersection at the bottom of the inverted T. Now dial up in increments of say 10 MOA. As you dial up, without moving the actual distance to target any cant will show up as a deviation from the vertical line. Kinda like below (excuse the crayon drawing )

Super will try this aswell. Thanks.

cookimonster

Very interesting thread...

May I throw a few things into the mix-

At 200 yards are your groups tight, my thinking is that if your achieving 1-2ish inch groups at 200 you may think that your 'drifting' where as it might be just your groups opening up. Shooters can be fixated with clover leaf shooting and pin point accuracy, this in terms of shooting history is only a relatively new phenomenon and is a great sales pitch that most of us rifle owners struggle to live up to.

Are you actually zeroing at the given ranges or are you assuming the zero based on balistics?

Lastly your actual zero point may between your click values of your windage, ie 1 click to the right is bringing your POI over more than you actually need. You may need to zero slightly left of centre bull at 100 and live with it.

A friend once told me not to frustrate yourself chasing the perfect zero. Instead of thinking minute of angle think minute of bunnies, fox or deer so to speak.

ninja7848

cookimonster wrote: »

Very interesting thread...

May I throw a few things into the mix-

At 200 yards are your groups tight, my thinking is that if your achieving 1-2ish inch groups at 200 you may think that your 'drifting' where as it might be just your groups opening up. Shooters can be fixated with clover leaf shooting and pin point accuracy, this in terms of shooting history is only a relatively new phenomenon and is a great sales pitch that most of us rifle owners struggle to live up to.

Are you actually zeroing at the given ranges or are you assuming the zero based on balistics?

Lastly your actual zero point may between your click values of your windage, ie 1 click to the right is bringing your POI over more than you actually need. You may need to zero slightly left of centre bull at 100 and live with it.

A friend once told me not to frustrate yourself chasing the perfect zero. Instead of thinking minute of angle think minute of bunnies, fox or deer so to speak.

That’s a very good point. It could well be that at 200 yards each click is more than needed. Will get out one evening this week and get photos of the targets to show. Nothing wrong with it still good enough to hit well placed shots on rabbits and foxes. As you say I’ve been holding ever so slight to the right and hitting the target. At 100 yards the groups are under an inch. At 200 they do open but are consistent to the left. It’s realy not an issue for my shooting more a learning curve. Pardon the pun.