How not to cycle past a horse

Rechuchote

The problem here (it seems to me) is that people involved in a race are so focused on winning that humanity is put aside. Should race rules be amended to take account of safety in this kind of case? Would it be the same if this were children walking to school or berry-picking? I would guess that yes, it would.

Glass fused light

Melodeon wrote: »

This is about as close as we're likely to see in this day and age.
It's 'only' 4 horses, they're harnessed together, and there are no riders armed with sabre or lance with bad intentions in their hearts, but it's still a pretty terrifying thing to have coming at you:

Been there and won't move animals anymore. I have had couple of cattle bolt at me and watching them, knowing that they were not going to stop, that there was not a dam thing I could do to stop them, and that it was their choice not to run into me.

Hurrache

Rechuchote wrote: »

The problem here (it seems to me) is that people involved in a race are so focused on winning that humanity is put aside. Should race rules be amended to take account of safety in this kind of case? Would it be the same if this were children walking to school or berry-picking? I would guess that yes, it would.

On open roads the rules are to abide the existing road traffic laws. Should be no need for additional rules.

Lumen

Rechuchote wrote: »

The problem here (it seems to me) is that people involved in a race are so focused on winning that humanity is put aside. Should race rules be amended to take account of safety in this kind of case? Would it be the same if this were children walking to school or berry-picking? I would guess that yes, it would.

I don't know about triathlon, but from a roadie perspective, the first rule of road racing is "you're on a public road, obey the rules of the road".

This is reasonably well-observed, and where the rules are broken they are done at the risk of the rider.

For instance, whilst going slightly on the wrong side of the road around a blind bend is against the ROTR, in 99% of subsequent accidents (which are themselves incredibly rare due to various things put in place during the race) the other party is a driver who will suffer the inconvenience and minor shock of a cracked windscreen, while the rider ends up in hospital, which is not OK but OK. No third persons hurt in the execution of this stupidity.

What no racing club (either when hosting a race or from it's own members) would tolerate is the endangerment of pedestrians or horse riders (or horses, for that matter). It's an absolute red line.

One might argue that aside from the fact that triathlon is overpopulated by bad bike handlers with no sense of dignity, it's also fundamentally a race against the clock, and so you can't make up positions after stopping like you can in a bunch road race, but even time-trialling roadies would find the behaviour in this video completely unacceptable. Sure, you'd be annoyed to lose a few seconds but there's absolutely no way you'd buzz a horse rider.

Well, that's what I'd like to think.

tldr: I'm sticking to the "triathletes are morons" explanation.

Lumen

Oh and nee, I still think you're being unreasonable with your request to ask permission to pass.

That's not what it says in the law, and it's not what happens in practice. I live on a horsey road and in the hundreds of passes I've done there is no permission asked nor given, just a smile and a wave from either or both parties at some point in the manoeuvre which is nothing like asking or giving permission.

Rechuchote

Lumen wrote: »

One might argue that aside from the fact that triathlon is overpopulated by bad bike handlers with no sense of dignity, it's also fundamentally a race against the clock, and so you can't make up positions after stopping like you can in a bunch road race

This rule should obviously be changed, on the evidence of this video.

Hurrache

Lumen wrote: »

just a smile and a wave from either or both parties at some point in the manoeuvre which is nothing like asking or giving permission.

I think an acknowledgement of your existence is a prerequisite and then it's usually safe to head on by. I've scared the **** out of pedestrians and runners when I've passed them from behind, so these days when I'm not sure they're aware I'm there I'll cough or something. With horses I'll always wait until the rider spots me, they usually always give a wave, smile, nod of the head etc.

Nevermind spooking horses though, there's plenty of times I've spooked pheasants and almost got my face smashed in as they clattered by me.

Glass fused light

Lumen wrote: »

Oh and nee, I still think you're being unreasonable with your request to ask permission to pass.

That's not what it says in the law, and it's not what happens in practice. I live on a horsey road and in the hundreds of passes I've done there is no permission asked nor given, just a smile and a wave from either or both parties at some point in the manoeuvre which is nothing like asking or giving permission.

That ^^ was permission.

As many a thread has debated over the last few months not all permissions are express or verbal.

ford2600

Lumen wrote: »

Oh and nee, I still think you're being unreasonable with your request to ask permission to pass.

https://www.google.ie/maps/@52.3536096,-7.8315169,3a,75y,194.74h,95.49t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDylb0cjnYyX8JUhsZzJttw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I meet horses a lot on roads like above, and will always stop. I ask for the rider to tell me how to proceed.

I'm really not that bothered about the asking, but I want the horse to know there is a person approaching. I will do it whether approaching horse from behind or oncoming.


Given rider is on an animal, on roads like I've linked above you have to assume horse is flighty and work from there. Anything less isn't appropriate caution.


I would show the same caution around horse back riders as children when they
are on the type of roads I ride.

There was a time when most cyclists wouldn't need to be told this; in early 20th century USA over 25% of grain production was used to feed horses such was their number as animals of burden and transport. The vast majority of people today are ignorant of them and how to behave around them, which is a pity. They taste nice to:)

Borderfox

I thought they lady on the horse and the horse itself did quite well considering how close the riders were on the right and if no rider had tried to pass on the left she wouldn't have had a problem. The contact on the left escalated the situation and she did well to keep the horse under control

Personally I stop the bike when I encounter a horse and wait for direction from them but that's coming from a horseowner perspective.

I wonder if a lead car had proceeded the riders similar to a road bicycle race? might be something they would do in future to alert other road users?

ConnyMcDavid

nee wrote: »

Sure why are cyclists allowed in the road? Why are people allowed to walk on the road? Why are children allowed to walk on the road? They're all more vulnerable than motor traffic. :rolleyes:

A cyclist or other vehicle is not a living entity and cannot get surprised or scared when something speeds by loudly.

Why should something that gets intimidated by motor noise and speed be allowed on a road that is built for things with motor noise and speed?
Just because horses used to have sole use of roads back in the day doesn't give them a right today. They have trailors nowadays.

buffalo

ConnyMcDavid wrote: »

A cyclist ... is not a living entity and cannot get surprised or scared when something speeds by loudly.

er, I get surprised or scared sometimes when something speeds by loudly.


PS I'm a cyclist not a horse.

Borderfox

ConnyMcDavid wrote: »

A cyclist or other vehicle is not a living entity and cannot get surprised or scared when something speeds by loudly.

Why should something that gets intimidated by motor noise and speed be allowed on a road that is built for things with motor noise and speed?
Just because horses used to have sole use of roads back in the day doesn't give them a right today. They have trailors nowadays.

Similar to Pedestrians and Cyclists they have an intrinsic right to use the road unlike vehicular traffic that is licensed. its the the vehicular traffic that should give way not the other way around

Lumen

Glass fused light wrote: »

That ^^ was permission.

As many a thread has debated over the last few months not all permissions are express or verbal.

It's not permission if it happens at the end of the manoeuvre!

Hurrache

ConnyMcDavid wrote: »

doesn't give them a right today. They have trailors nowadays.

Erm, we may have some news for you.

I do wonder if all these posts are serious, because otherwise it's yet another step to understanding the mentality of some of the worse drivers on our roads.

Rechuchote

ConnyMcDavid wrote: »

A cyclist or other vehicle is not a living entity

I'm not? (Pinches self - ouch, yes, apparently living.)

I usually have a "bear bell" (a bell with a high, penetrating chime) on my bike which people can hear chiming from quite a distance away. Horses don't seem to mind it; it warns at least some of those people who step out to cross the road with earphones deployed and their back to traffic.

Glass fused light

Lumen wrote: »

It's not permission if it happens at the end of the manoeuvre!

That's an outcome on you then, as you are making a choice, hope you and the rider and the horse are always lucky.

buffalo

ConnyMcDavid wrote: »

A cyclist ...is not a living entity.

Zombie cyclists!

Lumen

Glass fused light wrote: »

That's an outcome on you then, as you are making a choice, hope you and the rider and the horse are always lucky.

You're missing my point. Why have I got a smiley wave in hundreds of passes if I was doing it wrong by not waiting for permission to pass?

Surely there would be a bit of grumpiness, no?

edit: hang on...

ford2600 wrote: »

https://www.google.ie/maps/@52.3536096,-7.8315169,3a,75y,194.74h,95.49t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDylb0cjnYyX8JUhsZzJttw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I meet horses a lot on roads like above, and will always stop. I ask for the rider to tell me how to proceed.

OK, well I don't use roads like that. It's a boreen, not a road!

The road I mostly pass horses on is this:

https://goo.gl/maps/zPDpDWe5LX42

On that road, there's no need to stop since I can pass (on two wheels) about 4 metres from the horse.

ConnyMcDavid

Hurrache wrote: »

Erm, we may have some news for you.

I do wonder if all these posts are serious, because otherwise it's yet another step to understanding the mentality of some of the worse drivers on our roads.

Apologies I mean the bicycle itself not the cyclist. I don't think a cyclist would kick his legs everywhere shiit and run aimlessly when scared.

People who believe horses shouldn't be on the roads, can still drive appropriately when encountering them as necessary. How are you jumping to the conclusion that that belief means they drive badly?

Hurrache

I never said anything about driving ability, I mentioned attitude.

cython

Borderfox wrote: »

I thought they lady on the horse and the horse itself did quite well considering how close the riders were on the right and if no rider had tried to pass on the left she wouldn't have had a problem. The contact on the left escalated the situation and she did well to keep the horse under control

Personally I stop the bike when I encounter a horse and wait for direction from them but that's coming from a horseowner perspective.

I wonder if a lead car had proceeded the riders similar to a road bicycle race? might be something they would do in future to alert other road users?

Probably not overly feasibly in triathlon, given the waves starting (this one had waves going off from 06:00 until 07:50), and the fact that by the time they hit the bike leg there's even more of a spread as people straggle. Depending on which wave these were from, a single lead car is unlikely to have been in the vicinity of the horse. One could advocate for a lead car per wave, but that may introduce its own dangers if cyclists are racing past them from later waves (or indeed their own or earlier, depending on which elements they are stronger or weaker at).

Fleet of moto marshals and/or comms (or whatever triathletes call their equivalents!) is probably the best way to deal with it if anything, now that I think of it.

ford2600

Lumen wrote: »

OK, well I don't use roads like that. It's a boreen, not a road!

[/U]

The een makes it a small road boyeen

Lumen

ford2600 wrote: »

The een makes it a small road boyeen

Pointeen taken.

Glass fused light

cython wrote: »

Probably not overly feasibly in triathlon, given the waves starting (this one had waves going off from 06:00 until 07:50), and the fact that by the time they hit the bike leg there's even more of a spread as people straggle. Depending on which wave these were from, a single lead car is unlikely to have been in the vicinity of the horse. One could advocate for a lead car per wave, but that may introduce its own dangers if cyclists are racing past them from later waves (or indeed their own or earlier, depending on which elements they are stronger or weaker at).

Fleet of moto marshals and/or comms (or whatever triathletes call their equivalents!) is probably the best way to deal with it if anything, now that I think of it.

A simple rule of if a participant acts in a way which endangers a non-participant that they are immeditaly disqualified would be a start.

The problem is that you have to cater from the dumbest darwin award participants in all walks of life.

cython

Glass fused light wrote: »

A simple rule of if a participant acts in a way which endangers a non-participant that they are immeditaly disqualified would be a start.

I agree, but I was more addressing the lead car point from the perspective of how to forewarn other road users as a proactive/precautionary measure, rather than just a mechanism to throw the book at someone when it goes wrong. The two are not mutually exclusive, after all.

Glass fused light wrote: »

The problem is that you have to cater from the dumbest darwin award participants in all walks of life.

That's a fairly extreme description even for triathletes! :pac: :P

(I'll try to stop with the tri-bashing now!)

Borderfox

I think going forward the organisers will have to be more proactive in the alerting of the general public of when events are on (I know they did this already but it didn't work)

This incident could have easily escalated to a multiple loss of life event.

average_runner

Borderfox wrote: »

I think going forward the organisers will have to be more proactive in the alerting of the general public of when events are on (I know they did this already but it didn't work)

This incident could have easily escalated to a multiple loss of life event.

Still might not stop this from happening. Unless the road is closed by the gardai.

Tenzor07

Shots fired, incoming missiles!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5855745/Unremorseful-cyclist-bashes-horse-quiet-road-triathlon.html

Beasty

Just to re-emphasise, we are talking about an incident in the UK here. Road traffic legislation, as adapted for cyclists, certainly applies, and I have little doubt the riders involved could be prosecuted for dangerous driving (assuming it was not a closed road), or as I've already mentioned, perhaps "wanton and furious driving".

I don't know what arrangements the UK triathlon organisations have with the police, but I do know there have been challenges against open road racing in various parts of the UK. I would imagine this event was notified to the police, and a full safety assessment was supplied (I've seen this process with the UK's League of Veteran Cyclists Association)

Alas, incidents like this simply give ammunition to those wanting to banish racing from open roads. Indeed the fact we are talking about in Ireland encourages many to assume this happened in Ireland, and will probably be used as ammunition when people are looking for reasons to clamp down on road racing over here