State Apology to Homosexuals

AllForIt

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0619/971510-apology/

I watched the proceedings in the Dail this evening and I have to say I feel very proud of Ireland and that's saying something as I've never been one for national pride.

As I watched the proceedings and TD after TD recounted the veritable horror of the lives of ppl who have been persecuted over the generations especially gay men I couldn't help but feel amazed by how far this Catholic conservative country has come.

If there is a God, and He put us here as a test that decides whether we get past the pearly gates - he certainly does set hard coursework.

applehunter

How many homesexuals in total were shot in those years?

Apparently at least one other country used to chemically castrate gay people until quite recently, in between lecturing the rest of the world about "civilisation". Did the Irish state do that?

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

AllForIt wrote: »

If there is a God, and He put us here as a test that decides whether we get past the pearly gates.

What an odd concept.

AllForIt

applehunter wrote: »

How many homesexuals in total were shot in those years?

Shot or shot dead?

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Apparently at least one other country used to chemically castrate gay people until quite recently, in between lecturing the rest of the world about "civilisation". Did the Irish state do that?

Sure the Irish state didn't even have the balls to hang their own death penalty criminals when it was still on the statute books. Used to fly the British executioner over to drop the lever, kick the chair out, or whatever it was they did.

tayto lover

Samantha Future Firefighter wrote: »

What an odd concept.

Especially as we are told He knows all things already. So why the test?

timthumbni

Deleted User wrote: »

Apparently at least one other country used to chemically castrate gay people until quite recently, in between lecturing the rest of the world about "civilisation". Did the Irish state do that?

Egypt. They have a lot to answer for. I know they love their mummies just like the Irish but there really is no further comparison.....

Another pr stunt to deflect from
Other issues eg health and homeless issues ...don’t see any apologies for those waiting on trolleys.... the social media/pc brigade will lap it up

jacksie66

This post has been deleted.

Roger_007

Nobody should ever apologise for something they didn't do. Nobody can apologise on behalf of some other person or body. It's perfectly OK to acknowledge that something wrong was done in the past and to ensure that it doesn't happen in the future.
I remember Tony Blair apologising for the Irish famine and I thought that it was the most ridiculous thing I'd ever heard a U.K. Politician saying. Tony Blair had nothing to do with the famine so how could he apologise for it.
Anyone who did wrong can, and should, apologise. Those who didn't do the wrong have no business apologising.

(BTW Have the Danes ever apologised for the Viking raids?)

AllForIt

Lilly Nutritious Scabby wrote: »

Another pr stunt to deflect from
Other issues eg health and homeless issues ...don’t see any apologies for those waiting on trolleys.... the social media/pc brigade will lap it up

Over the years of following politics I have always found whether the argument is "There are other issues the gov should be more concerned about" or "They are only taking about this to deflect from that" - to be the most unconvincing arguments one could ever hear.

utyh2ikcq9z76b

Roger_007 wrote: »

Nobody should ever apologise for something they didn't do. Nobody can apologise on behalf of some other person or body. It's perfectly OK to acknowledge that something wrong was done in the past and to ensure that it doesn't happen in the future.
I remember Tony Blair apologising for the Irish famine and I thought that it was the most ridiculous thing I'd ever heard a U.K. Politician saying. Tony Blair had nothing to do with the famine so how could he apologise for it.
Anyone who did wrong can, and should, apologise. Those who didn't do the wrong have no business apologising.

(BTW Have the Danes ever apologised for the Viking raids?)

I suppose its because the state is still in existence. It wasn't an individual matter.

DickSwiveller

Yawn

AllForIt

DickSwiveller wrote: »

Yawn

Yawn.

Nermal

Roger_007 wrote: »

(BTW Have the Danes ever apologised for the Viking raids?)

Unfortunately so: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/aug/16/ireland

No doubt profferring meaningless apologies will now somehow get us on the hook for compensation claims.

Mikenesson

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Sure the Irish state didn't even have the balls to hang their own death penalty criminals when it was still on the statute books. Used to fly the British executioner over to drop the lever, kick the chair out, or whatever it was they did.

Ya if they still had it you'd be doing it with a keyboard press

AllForIt

Roger_007 wrote: »

Nobody should ever apologise for something they didn't do.

What about things they did do? Like criminalize homosexuality?

Fann Linn

Talk is cheap.

And from the mouths of politicians!

Meh.

Skylinehead

Deleted User wrote: »

Apparently at least one other country used to chemically castrate gay people until quite recently, in between lecturing the rest of the world about "civilisation". Did the Irish state do that?

Mod: The next time you soapbox in an irrelevant thread, you'll take a week off.

Ten of Swords

Roger_007 wrote: »

Nobody should ever apologise for something they didn't do. Nobody can apologise on behalf of some other person or body. It's perfectly OK to acknowledge that something wrong was done in the past and to ensure that it doesn't happen in the future.

Considering homosexuality was decriminalized in 1993 and ingrained homophobia ran through much of Irish society in the 1980s (google Declan Flynn or Charles Self) it is fair to say that many people directly penalized by these laws, or indirectly - gossip and shunning - are still alive and I'm sure they appreciate hearing this apology from the state and the sense of validation that comes with it (whatever about it being long overdue)

AllForIt

Fann Linn wrote: »

Talk is cheap.

And from the mouths of politicians!

Meh.

I think FG did bring around the marriage ref no? Or did that happen all by itself as if by magic.

Roger_007

AllForIt wrote: »

What about things they did do? Like criminalize homosexuality?

The people who criminalised homosexuality are long dead and gone. Nobody can apologise on their behalf.

Mutant z

There may need to be a lot more apologising in future when you look at the demographic change which is currently taking place in this country and the less than friendly views some of those demographs hold towards gay people.

AllForIt

Roger_007 wrote: »

The people who criminalised homosexuality are long dead and gone. Nobody can apologise on their behalf.

Perhaps some of them spoke from heaven to ppl on earth to do so.

ToddyDoody

Fann Linn wrote: »

Talk is cheap.

And from the mouths of politicians!

Meh.

Probably just looking to piss off the DUP in the north who would be demanding an apology from homosexuals.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Fann Linn

AllForIt wrote: »

I think FG did bring around the marriage ref no? Or did that happen all by itself as if by magic.

You're also forgetting the LP and Citizens Assembly in your rush to give the Bluehirts the credit.

WinnyThePoo

Mutant z wrote: »

There may need to be a lot more apologising in future when you look at the demographic change which is currently taking place in this country and the less than friendly views some of those demographs hold towards gay people.

Every thread

AllForIt

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Well that may be so I've no idea, but I wouldn't compare illegal contraception to criminalizing homosexuality, but I get your point on social conservatism which did effect everyone - and I'm glad it's gone from this country.

super_furry

Mutant z wrote: »

There may need to be a lot more apologising in future when you look at the demographic change which is currently taking place in this country and the less than friendly views some of those demographs hold towards gay people.

Obsessed.

s7ryf3925pivug

"No secret that people involved in the founding of the state were homosexuals"

Padraig Pearse was the only one I was aware of. He was a homosexual paedophile. Personally I think homosexual paedophiles should be treated as an entirely separate group to homosexuals who are attracted to adults.

Fann Linn

Irene Scarce Theatre wrote: »

"No secret that people involved in the founding of the state were homosexuals"

Padraig Pearse was the only one I was aware of. He was a homosexual paedophile. Personally I think homosexual paedophiles should be treated as an entirely separate group to homosexuals who are attracted to adults.

Was Pearse a terrorist or freedom fighter?
That is the question.

Trasna1

Irene Scarce Theatre wrote: »

"No secret that people involved in the founding of the state were homosexuals"

Padraig Pearse was the only one I was aware of. He was a homosexual paedophile. Personally I think homosexual paedophiles should be treated as an entirely separate group to homosexuals who are attracted to adults.

Roger Casement was a homosexual.

s7ryf3925pivug

Fann Linn wrote: »

Was Pearse a terrorist or freedom fighter?
That is the question.

Well he was a paedophile who led lots of people to martyrdom to stir up support for a cause that was unpopular at the time.

DickSwiveller

Irene Scarce Theatre wrote: »

Well he was a paedophile who led lots of people to martyrdom to stir up support for a cause that was unpopular at the time.

He was a paedophile?

AllForIt

Irene Scarce Theatre wrote: »

"Personally I think homosexual paedophiles should be treated as an entirely separate group to homosexuals who are attracted to adults.

I don't think there is a rational being in the world that would not agree with you. Why are you pointing out the obvious, that has noting to do with this thread.

wakka12

Mutant z wrote: »

There may need to be a lot more apologising in future when you look at the demographic change which is currently taking place in this country and the less than friendly views some of those demographs hold towards gay people.

What demographic change? Ireland is one of the most accepting countries in the world of gay people and can't see that changing soon

Roger_007

DickSwiveller wrote: »

He was a paedophile?

Decide for yourself:-

LITTLE LAD OF THE TRICKS

by Padraig Pearse.


Little lad of the tricks,
Full well I know
That you have been in mischief:
Confess your fault truly.

I forgive you, child
Of the soft red mouth:
I will not condemn anyone
For a sin not understood.

Raise your comely head
Till I kiss your mouth:
If either of us is the better of that
I am the better of it.

There is a fragrance in your kiss
That I have not found yet
In the kisses of women
Or in the honey of their bodies.

Lad of the grey eyes,
That flush in thy cheek
Would be white with dread of me
Could you read my secrets.

He who has my secrets
Is not fit to touch you:
Is not that a pitiful thing,
Little lad of the tricks ?

DickSwiveller

Roger_007 wrote: »

Decide for yourself:-

LITTLE LAD OF THE TRICKS

by Padraig Pearse.


Little lad of the tricks,
Full well I know
That you have been in mischief:
Confess your fault truly.

I forgive you, child
Of the soft red mouth:
I will not condemn anyone
For a sin not understood.

Raise your comely head
Till I kiss your mouth:
If either of us is the better of that
I am the better of it.

There is a fragrance in your kiss
That I have not found yet
In the kisses of women
Or in the honey of their bodies.

Lad of the grey eyes,
That flush in thy cheek
Would be white with dread of me
Could you read my secrets.

He who has my secrets
Is not fit to touch you:
Is not that a pitiful thing,
Little lad of the tricks ?

That's your evidence? A poem?

One eyed Jack

AllForIt wrote: »

As I watched the proceedings and TD after TD recounted the veritable horror of the lives of ppl who have been persecuted over the generations especially gay men I couldn't help but feel amazed by how far this Catholic conservative country has come.

Curiously enough, the priesthood was more of a safe haven for many conservative gay men at the time in that it afforded them the ability to remain in the closest and not have to bear the social pressure of people questioning their sexuality or facing pressure to go into manual labour, to marry, to have children, to get a job that would provide for a family, etc.

I tend to view any apologies for political purposes a bit like this tbh:

s7ryf3925pivug

DickSwiveller wrote: »

He was a paedophile?

Yes. Google little lad of the tricks. He wrote lots of stuff like that.

Some people think he didnt act on his desires. Personally I reckon he would have chosen a different career if that were true.

DickSwiveller

Irene Scarce Theatre wrote: »

Yes. Google little lad of the tricks. He wrote lots of stuff like that.

Some people think he didnt act on his desires. Personally I reckon he would have chosen a different career if that were true.

A poem? That's your evidence that he was a paedophile. I hope you don't work in the legal profession.

Dyr

Any sign of Leo apologizing for the state torturing people to death and dumping their bodies or tying prisoners to land mines?

Is there f**k.

Mutant z

Where's the evidence for all these accusations about Pearse.

Franz Von Peppercorn

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Apparently at least one other country used to chemically castrate gay people until quite recently, in between lecturing the rest of the world about "civilisation". Did the Irish state do that?

True, the U.K. was far worse for homosexuals. That doesn’t fit the narrative.

DickSwiveller

Mutant z wrote: »

Where's the evidence for all these accusations about Pearse.

The legal eagles have decided that a poem is sufficient evidence.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Irene Scarce Theatre wrote: »

Well he was a paedophile who led lots of people to martyrdom to stir up support for a cause that was unpopular at the time.

Where’s the evidence that Pearse actually engaged in any pedophilloic activities.

AllForIt

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Curiously enough, the priesthood was more of a safe haven for many conservative gay men at the time in that it afforded them the ability to remain in the closest and not have to bear the social pressure of people questioning their sexuality or facing pressure to go into manual labour, to marry, to have children, to get a job that would provide for a family, etc.

Is/was there social pressure to get married and have children? Where did that come from I wonder.

More likely the typical Catholic family who had an abundance of children convinced one of them (for whatever reason,hint hint) to become a priest. What an accolade to have a priest in one's family. Kill two birds with one stone, kinda thing.

AllForIt

As far as calculating politicians are concerned, I accept that. This apology will be forgotten tomorrow. But if you don't mind it does mean something to some ppl even if means nothing to you personally. On top of that when you see what goes in foreign lands as homosexual rights have become worse due to to social wars between the east and west, I think it's worthwhile to state where our county stands on the issue.

One eyed Jack

AllForIt wrote: »

Is/was there social pressure to get married and have children? Where did that come from I wonder.

It came from the hopes of increasing the familys social status through marriage, which was practiced in Irish society long before Catholicism.

More likely the typical Catholic family who had an abundance of children convinced one of them (for whatever reason,hint hint) to become a priest. What an accolade to have a priest in one's family. Kill two birds with one stone, kinda thing.

There was that too of course, which was indeed like killing two birds with the one stone - gay Catholics didn't bring shame on the family, and of course having a priest in the family increased a familys social status, an idea not entirely unlike the numbers of young daughters who 'suddenly' felt the urge to join the Convent out of the blue. At least that's what the neighbours were told, so the family maintained and even grew their social status in their community.

It was more of a social class thing than it was ever about whether or not someone was gay. There are many well-known people at the time who were openly gay and wealthy, and that's not a particularly popular narrative, because it betrays the romanticised narrative that suggests Irish society was a collective of ignorant spud munchers in thrall to the Church. They weren't, or at least most people weren't anyway. It was simply a case then as much as it is today of keeping up appearances.