Ire vs Aus - Test Number Three

Deusexmachina

Sangre wrote: »

lol

brilliantly argued.

salmocab

Deusexmachina wrote: »

What these players have brought to their clubs is entirely immaterial. We are talking about International teams. I really enjoy these guys playing for the provinces (within the limits set).

There is a huge difference between a situation where someone has taken up citizenship for family, economic or political reasons (and subsequently coming up through the ranks to play for Ireland) and someone being deliberately brought over here with the promise of playing for the National team once he has lived here for a period.

Stander played for SA unders 20s. He was called up for the SA 2012 National Squad. He is South African. I have no problem him playing here - but I would prefer if he played his international rugby for SA (as he would had he made their team in 2012).

Restrict to Irish citizens who have lived here at least 10 years (and who renounce their previous held citizenship).

I’d imagine some of the Ulster lads would be a bit annoyed at not being eligible to play international rugby for anyone

Deusexmachina

rodge123 wrote: »

A nice un-biased account of the match!
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=12076549

NOT!

Such a pity. Their team are brilliant, a joy to watch.

But a sizable portion of their supporters and their media are completely one eyed to a farcical level.

Whenever about the very slim chance that the ball might have brushed off Stockdales upper arm, to bleat that it was an obvious deliberate knock on is ludicrous.

Moaning, whining, bad losers - zero class. Glad we beat them

Deusexmachina

salmocab wrote: »

I’d imagine some of the Ulster lads would be a bit annoyed at not being eligible to play international rugby for anyone

My understanding is that the IRFU is an all Ireland organization and as such citizens of Ireland and Northern Ireland play for Ireland.

amcalester

rodge123 wrote: »

They were just checking that Stockdale didn’t get any touch to the ball, TMO confirmed he could see no clear and obvious touch of ball from Stockdale.

“That's where the game descended into farce as the TMO judged there was not sufficient evidence to overrule the on-field decision, despite replays showing Stockdale clearly played at the ball.”

Unless they saw other camera angles than what I saw on sky sports and I believe is what the referee saw, then it most definately was not clear Stockdale played the ball. Brutal reporting.

Reads like a fake news story tbh

They seem to be saying that because he attempted to play the ball (played at the ball) that that alone is enough to call a penalty.

shootermacg

Deusexmachina wrote: »

What these players have brought to their clubs is entirely immaterial. We are talking about International teams. I really enjoy these guys playing for the provinces (within the limits set).

There is a huge difference between a situation where someone has taken up citizenship for family, economic or political reasons (and subsequently coming up through the ranks to play for Ireland) and someone being deliberately brought over here with the promise of playing for the National team once he has lived here for a period.

Stander played for SA unders 20s. He was called up for the SA 2012 National Squad. He is South African. I have no problem him playing here - but I would prefer if he played his international rugby for SA (as he would had he made their team in 2012).

Restrict to Irish citizens who have lived here at least 10 years (and who renounce their previous held citizenship).

This has been done to death already. I'm sure there's nothing you can say that hasn't been said on here more times than can be counted.

twinytwo

Deusexmachina wrote: »

Such a pity. Their team are brilliant, a joy to watch.

But a sizable portion of their supporters and their media are completely one eyed to a farcical level.

Whenever about the very slim chance that the ball might have brushed off Stockdales upper arm, to bleat that it was an obvious deliberate knock on is ludicrous.

Moaning, whining, bad losers - zero class. Glad we beat them

You can clearly see the ball never touched Stockdale in the view from behind the Aussies that was shown a few times.

I'm not sure why they keep banging out about it. If they were honest the game should have out of site for the aussies in the first half but thems the breaks.

That being said, my heart would prefer if Irish rugby could win easy... after the Toulon game and the endings to the france/Wales and aus games I'll be in an early grave :pac:

ScrubsfanChris

Neat

https://twitter.com/pocockdavid/status/1010815454892326912?s=19

twinytwo

Deusexmachina wrote: »

What these players have brought to their clubs is entirely immaterial. We are talking about International teams. I really enjoy these guys playing for the provinces (within the limits set).

There is a huge difference between a situation where someone has taken up citizenship for family, economic or political reasons (and subsequently coming up through the ranks to play for Ireland) and someone being deliberately brought over here with the promise of playing for the National team once he has lived here for a period.

Stander played for SA unders 20s. He was called up for the SA 2012 National Squad. He is South African. I have no problem him playing here - but I would prefer if he played his international rugby for SA (as he would had he made their team in 2012).

Restrict to Irish citizens who have lived here at least 10 years (and who renounce their previous held citizenship).

And stander wanted to play for SA, but they wanted to convert him to hooker.

I think you put little stock it what's it means to these guys to play for their country especially in South Africa.

To play for another country is a very big deal, especially for someone like stander who was easily good enough to make the team

salmocab

Deusexmachina wrote: »

My understanding is that the IRFU is an all Ireland organization and as such citizens of Ireland and Northern Ireland play for Ireland.

People from Northern Ireland are British citizens. It’s an absolute mine field that nobody in sport would want to get involved in.

mangobob

As per the NZ Herald article:

The third official acknowledged Stockdale had clearly touched the ball, but wasn't prepared to issue a penalty for it — despite his reach proving the be the most decisive play of the game.

Did I miss this? Did the TMO actually state that Stockdale made contact with the ball? I have to go back and rewatch the incident but I dont remember that at all. I couldnt see a single camera angle that showed any kind of contact, much less a deliberate knock on.

twinytwo

mangobob wrote: »

As per the NZ Herald article:



Did I miss this? Did the TMO actually state that Stockdale made contact with the ball? I have to go back and rewatch the incident but I dont remember that at all. I couldnt see a single camera angle that showed any kind of contact, much less a deliberate knock on.

I don't know where they got that from.. he clearly said there is no evidence of him having touched the ball.

Then thankfully the tmo came back and told the ref the game was over so no lineout

salmocab

twinytwo wrote: »

I don't know where they got that from.. he clearly said there is no evidence of him having touched the ball.

Then thankfully the tmo came back and told the ref the game was over so no lineout

That’s exactly what happened

Burkie1203

salmocab wrote: »

People from Northern Ireland are British citizens. It’s an absolute mine field that nobody in sport would want to get involved in.

People in the north like Stockdale, Best, Henderson are entitled to be Irish citizens

The current brexit stuff has seen a huge rise in the number of people in the UK with a grandparent born on the Island (all 32 counties) apply for Irish citizenship which then entitles them to a passport

salmocab

Burkie1203 wrote: »

People in the north like Stockdale, Best, Henderson are entitled to be Irish citizens

The current brexit stuff has seen a huge rise in the number of people in the UK with a grandparent born on the Island (all 32 counties) apply for Irish citizenship which then entitles them to a passport

Yes I know but that changes nothing they are still British.

Former Former

Ah lads. Really?

Your time would be better spent debating why some Irish people are so delighted when we lose and clutch at any straw to demean our victories.

stephen_n

Former Former wrote: »

Ah lads. Really?

Your time would be better spent debating why some Irish people are so delighted when we lose and clutch at any straw to demean our victories.

That’s an easy one, because they’re Irish.

awec

Drop the NIQ talk please. Been there, done that.

And nobody start this self-pitying nonsense about people being upset when we win please. It's beyond dull.

bobbysands81

salmocab wrote: »

People from Northern Ireland are British citizens. It’s an absolute mine field that nobody in sport would want to get involved in.

Some people from Northern Ireland are British citizens even though “Northern” Ireland is not even in Britain. it’s an absolute mine field that nobody in sport would want to get involved in.

Gidea

mangobob wrote: »

I guess I am one of those people who are struggling with this.

I agree with the punishment of Healy. I accept that the ref deemed he was deliberately collapsing the maul at the tryline to prevent a try being scored and thus awarded a penalty try (and therefore a yellow card). I also get that not all offences are the same severity, as in the case of high tackles or tip tackles. I get that intent (whether its deliberate or not) and outcome (whether player lands on their head or back etc) can change the sanction.

What I don't get is how in this case we can modulate the sanction of the offence based on how "blatant" it is. Both mauls were deemed by the refs to have been deliberately collapsed which prevented a try being scored. What makes Healy's infringement more blatant than the wallaby one?

As far as I can see both offences are the same - attacking maul is deliberately collapsed on both respective trylines. The outcome is the same - the attacking side were illegally prevented from scoring a try. So why is the sanction different? Why were we not awarded a penalty try and the Australian offender yellow carded a la Healy?

This is a genuine question. What am I missing?

What really annoyed me was that 5 gold gave away the penalty that led to the attacking maul and was given a warning from the ref. 4 minutes later 5 gold brings down the maul preventing a certain try, and the ref has completly forgotten about the warning.

Burkie1203

Matt Williams spouts some awful sh1te. He is now blaming Stander for POM getting taken out by Folau

Billy86

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Matt Williams spouts some awful sh1te. He is now blaming Stander for POM getting taken out by Folau

They are the worst losers in the world and that is absolutely no exaggeration, this stuff is absolutely standard from them.

Saw some other Aussie bloke going on a mad one after the game on twitter about Ireland collaborating with the nazis and shooting at australian ships off the coast of Ireland during WWII. Needless to say, his account had a lot of rugby posts. :pac:

umop episdn

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Matt Williams spouts some awful sh1te. He is now blaming Stander for POM getting taken out by Folau

They were saying the same thing on sky at half-time

BBDBB

ScrubsfanChris wrote: »

Neat

https://twitter.com/pocockdavid/status/1010815454892326912?s=19

Pocock looks good in green, has he an Irish granny?

Murray in yellow looks all kinds of wrong



Edit
Sorry awec, only just saw the warning when the page changed over

Neil3030

Ah come on, Matt Williams took part in an interview that lasted nearly an hour, during which he was glowingly complimentary of Ireland's achievements on several occasions. He even referred to Ireland as "we" a good few times. Sore loser he is not.

Neil3030

BBDBB wrote: »

Pocock looks good in green, has he an Irish granny?

Murray in yellow looks all kinds of wrong



Edit
Sorry awec, only just saw the warning when the page changed over

Up close, with the scrum hat on, he's the image of POC, I think.

Franz Von Peppercorn

rodge123 wrote: »

A nice un-biased account of the match!
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=12076549

NOT!

That’s actually from an Australian source (the Australian daily telegraph).

Shefwedfan

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Matt Williams spouts some awful sh1te. He is now blaming Stander for POM getting taken out by Folau

To be fair he isn't wrong......

ButtersSuki

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Matt Williams spouts some awful sh1te. He is now blaming Stander for POM getting taken out by Folau

I’d agree he spouts some awful shoyte st times, but to be fair that’s not a fair representation of what he said. He said the way Stander lifted and held POM contributed to the way he fell following contact; which is accurate.

Burkie1203

ButtersSuki wrote: »

I’d agree he spouts some awful shoyte st times, but to be fair that’s not a fair representation of what he said. He said the way Stander lifted and held POM contributed to the way he fell following contact; which is accurate.

But has tried to put the blame solely on Stander. Folau has been cited and Williams is claiming it shouldn't even be a card. If you look at the leap by POM he isn't really lifted. He makes that jump himself mainly. Folau puts both his hands on PoM and drags him from his upper body. That shifts his weight backwards

Steve

As Folau landed following the contact, he had 2 options.

1. Horrified face, meaning 'oh sh1t, what just happened'??

2. Nothing to see here face, meaning 'oh sh1t, did they see that'? <o< >o>

I saw #2.

Steve

Steve wrote: »

As Folau landed following the contact, he had 2 options.

1. Horrified face, meaning 'oh sh1t, what just happened'??

2. Nothing to see here face, meaning 'oh sh1t, did they see that'? <o< >o>

I saw #2.

CSI:
CSI: Miami
CSI: Las Vegas
CSI: New York
CSI: Steve

Neil3030

Burkie1203 wrote: »

But has tried to put the blame solely on Stander. Folau has been cited and Williams is claiming it shouldn't even be a card. If you look at the leap by POM he isn't really lifted. He makes that jump himself mainly. Folau puts both his hands on PoM and drags him from his upper body. That shifts his weight backwards

Williams's point is that if POM wasn't being held near the waist, the same contact would not have caused him to pivot so far backwards, and he would land in a much safer position. 1. This is correct. 2. This is not solely blaming Stander.

Steve

Deleted User wrote: »

CSI:
CSI: Miami
CSI: Las Vegas
CSI: New York
CSI: Steve

Yeah, definitely accidental... :rolleyes:

sydthebeat

Williams has obviously never seen the beast lift

Steve

Steve wrote: »

Yeah, definitely accidental... :rolleyes:

Pauliedragon

Don't stress about the Aussies whinging lads. That's just what they do. The problem with them is they follow sports where they're expected to win every match as in League, Cricket amd back in the day Rugby. They can't get their arrogant head around the fact that lowly Ireland beat them because they pay no attention to anything outside their own country therefore they haven't realised that we are a genuine force now in world rugby all that was evident in the lead up to game one with comments from players saying they don't know anything about the Irish players because why should they? They're gonna win anyway. When they didn't get the 2022 soccer world cup they were genuinely outraged and surprised because "this is Straya we are the sporting capital of the world" even though they were never going to get it.

Steve

Billy86

Pauliedragon wrote: »

Don't stress about the Aussies whinging lads. That's just what they do. The problem with them is they follow sports where they're expected to win every match as in League, Cricket amd back in the day Rugby. They can't get their arrogant head around the fact that lowly Ireland beat them because they pay no attention to anything outside their own country therefore they haven't realised that we are a genuine force now in world rugby all that was evident in the lead up to game one with comments from players saying they don't know anything about the Irish players because why should they? They're gonna win anyway. When they didn't get the 2022 soccer world cup they were genuinely outraged and surprised because "this is Straya we are the sporting capital of the world" even though they were never going to get it.

I was thinking of this the other day, and it's interesting how different countries take losses. We're a mixed bag (and it's hard to comment on ourselves!) between the refs, the players/manager (usually far more the manager) and being grateful for the effort as we're often in a position where we are the underdog. This rugby team is one of the (if not the) first times I can think of an Irish team that is expected to win going into every game with the exception of NZ, and even that is an extremely recent development, maybe too recent to call a proper 'expectation'.

The Americans are actually quite good at not being bitter... toward the opposition at least. The ref, not actually so much from what I have seen. Where they tend to put their blame is on the players.

The English are fairly mad for laying on the manager, great example being their football team down the years.

With the Aussies it's pretty much always the ref and the 'cheating' opposition, never really anything else or any shortcomings on their end they wish to identify. I quite liked the Aussies when I was over there but they have an odd complex like that with a good few things.

I'm trying to think of some others too, it's kind of interesting and would be a really good read if someone were to do a proper detailed book or thesis on the reasons as to why this is.

Former Former

In fairness. After the first test, there was fifty pages of Irish fans moaning about the ref. After the second, we probably got it down to forty.

The Aussies are no worse than us.

Shefwedfan

Former Former wrote: »

In fairness. After the first test, there was fifty pages of Irish fans moaning about the ref. After the second, we probably got it down to forty.

The Aussies are no worse than us.

After this test we should be back up to 50.....

ButtersSuki

Burkie1203 wrote: »

But has tried to put the blame solely on Stander. Folau has been cited and Williams is claiming it shouldn't even be a card. If you look at the leap by POM he isn't really lifted. He makes that jump himself mainly. Folau puts both his hands on PoM and drags him from his upper body. That shifts his weight backwards

I'm not sure how you're saying he tried to put the blame solely on Stander, I really didn't get that from the recording I listened to today.


Re. Falou getting cited, I'll say two things on that:
1. Many, many players have been cited and cleared
2. Williams isn't the only one who said he didn't think the incident merited a card


Falou is entitled to go for the ball and I haven't seen any replays that suggest his eyes were anywhere but on the ball in flight up to the point of contact. Stander is partially responsible for this incident because of how he lifts, where he's gripping and how he keeps hold of O'Mahony at the moment of impact - whether you think so or not. His grip (one-handed) causes him to rotate as he does when he and Falou make contact, and because of that grip he doesn't have the required level of control to execute a safe/safer landing.



BTW, Falou was not cited for this incident, he was cited for the incident in the 9th minute. Similar incident admittedly, but not the incident most people assume. Ironically Stander has a two handed grip here and was in more control of O'Mahony's landing.


As I said in my first post I agree with you that Williams can talk some level of shoyte at times, but I don't think this is one of those times.

Pauliedragon

Pauliedragon wrote: »

Don't stress about the Aussies whinging lads. That's just what they do. The problem with them is they follow sports where they're expected to win every match as in League, Cricket amd back in the day Rugby. They can't get their arrogant head around the fact that lowly Ireland beat them because they pay no attention to anything outside their own country therefore they haven't realised that we are a genuine force now in world rugby all that was evident in the lead up to game one with comments from players saying they don't know anything about the Irish players because why should they? They're gonna win anyway. When they didn't get the 2022 soccer world cup they were genuinely outraged and surprised because "this is Straya we are the sporting capital of the world" even though they were never going to get it.

New Zealand is also like this, from a rugby perspective. A big part of this, though, is that it is much harder to follow European rugby from NZ/Aus than the other way around.

When I was in NZ, you'd have to stay up through the night to watch the 6 nations, whereas here you can watch the rugby championship at a reasonable hour on a Saturday morning.

prawnsambo

ButtersSuki wrote: »

BTW, Falou was not cited for this incident, he was cited for the incident in the 9th minute. Similar incident admittedly, but not the incident most people assume. Ironically Stander has a two handed grip here and was in more control of O'Mahony's landing.

He was actually cited because he got an effective double yellow. He got a citing commissioner's warning for the 9th minute incident, post match and that, coupled with the actual yellow triggered an automatic citing.

Dog Botherer

Who is Falou?

Billy86

Dog Botherer wrote: »

Who is Falou?

You mean to tell me you have no idea who one of Austria's most important players is?

Dog Botherer

Billy86 wrote: »

You mean to tell me you have no idea who one of Austria's most important players is?

Pocock! He's one.

dited

Steve wrote: »

Yeah, definitely accidental... :rolleyes:

I think it's perfectly clear what the problem is:

We got the wrong South African.

https://youtu.be/DhskvFHeb6Y

Dog Botherer

dited wrote: »

I think it's perfectly clear what the problem is:

We got the wrong South African.

https://youtu.be/DhskvFHeb6Y

Nah, they got the right Zimbabwean.

ButtersSuki

prawnsambo wrote: »

He was actually cited because he got an effective double yellow. He got a citing commissioner's warning for the 9th minute incident, post match and that, coupled with the actual yellow triggered an automatic citing.

I’ll bow to your greater knowledge on this as I’m in bed and on the phone and too tired to check elsewhere for verification. It’s different to what I read earlier on the bbc.com page but fair enough, sounds plausible.

The point I was making was that people assumed he was (only/solely) cited for the incident in the 31st minute, which isn’t the case.