Toyota is bringing back Camry and discontinuing Avensis

bazz26

John_Rambo wrote: »

Diesel’s done now.

An amazingly good cheap tax push along with clever marketing had droves buying, augmented with a hugely smart & successful last grasp PCP campaign that has people rushing out to buy the last stock of vehicles that they can’t really afford. The so called “future estimates” of these diesel cars will be almost worthless in three years.

No car manufacturer is going to bow to the few die-hards in the minuscule Irish market demanding dirty diesels for their daily commute.

The Camry's always been known as a large, fast motorway saloon, I think they were used as motorway police cars, even in Ireland. They're remaining true to the car with this new one, all good except for the huge stupid grin just above the grill. I'm surprised they let that part of the design through, it would be nice on a small car, not on the Camry though.

There is still a market for diesel cars in this country in the short to medium term. There are also a large amount of used diesel cars on the road, not everyone is going to just go out and replace them with a brand non diesel car just because the likes of Toyota tell you it's better to do so. No government would be stupid enough to impose punitive taxes on voters as they know it would be political suicide come election time. Instead in the long term, demand for diesel cars here will slowly diminish and gradually they will for the most part naturally disappear from the roads.

As for manufacturers not giving people what they want, remember that the likes of Toyota sold small capacity engined cars exclusively for the Irish market that were not offered in the majority of other European markets. Same goes with small saloons like the Corolla which are only sold in a hand full of European countries. Toyota bring it here because it is a good seller here for them. Manufacturers find a way when it comes to market share.

Also Toyota have a huge PR machine going now trying to drill hybrids into people's brains because their typical customer the Sunday parishioner, who changes his diesel Corolla or Avensis every 2 or 3 years religiously no longer has that option and they are scared these people will buy from their rivals and they will lose market share.

The smugness of that one in the Toyota ad going on about buying a hybrid because she's concerned about air pollution for her kids yet how much air pollution and energy is used by the factory that produced her hybrid or the damage the mining of lithium for her hybrid batteries is doing. Keep your existing car if that's really a concern.

John_Rambo

bazz26 wrote: »

There is still a market for diesel cars in this country in the short to medium term. There are also a large amount of used diesel cars on the road, not everyone is going to just go out and replace them with a brand non diesel car just because the likes of Toyota tell you it's better to do so. No government would be stupid enough to impose punitive taxes on voters as they know it would be political suicide come election time. Instead in the long term, demand for diesel cars here will slowly diminish and gradually they will for the most part naturally disappear from the roads.

As for manufacturers not giving people what they want, remember that the likes of Toyota sold small capacity engined cars exclusively for the Irish market that were not offered in the majority of other European markets. Same goes with small saloons like the Corolla which are only sold in a hand full of European countries. Toyota bring it here because it is a good seller here for them. Manufacturers find a way when it comes to market share.

Also Toyota have a huge PR machine going now trying to drill hybrids into people's brains because their typical customer the Sunday parishioner, who changes his diesel Corolla or Avensis every 2 or 3 years religiously no longer has that option and they are scared these people will buy from their rivals and they will lose market share.

The smugness of that one in the Toyota ad going on about buying a hybrid because she's concerned about air pollution for her kids yet how much air pollution and energy is used by the factory that produced her hybrid or the damage the mining of lithium for her hybrid batteries is doing. Keep your existing car if that's really a concern.

You're more or less saying what I said in a very articulate, elequent, softer way with a longer time frame! And your points are valid.

Regarding my concerns, I indeed have old cars, one of which is eighteen yeas old and I'm having difficulties insuring it even though it's the most reliable car I've ever owned, passes the NTC every year, has new tyres, runs like a dream, has a tiny petrol engine and never gives trouble.

My point remains valid too. The PCP last grasp push was and is a cynical way to force the last remaining vehicles on people that can't really afford them. And believe me, there'll be pain when diesels aren't popular for tax reasons. It won't be the local politicians, they'll throw their hands up in the air in complete innocence, it will come from Europe. Just like the diesel push did.

Edit... the silly grin on the new Camry? Thoughts?

colm_mcm

John Rambo , are you saying that in the next 5 years you think the government or Europe or someone will impose some sort of tax punishing existing diesel owners? Say, dir example -someone who buys a new diesel now.

Skylinehead

pablo128 wrote: »

Amazing how every other manufacturer have a diesel option though. They are hardly doing that just for Ireland, as you say.

Those manufacturers will drastically change as new models come out. VW is in meltdown over the EU diesel changes even as we speak.

RobAMerc

colm_mcm wrote: »

John Rambo , are you saying that in the next 5 years you think the government or Europe or someone will impose some sort of tax punishing existing diesel owners? Say, dir example -someone who buys a new diesel now.

Absolutely ! The motor industry is large in Europe and a simple way to keep it afloat is to come up with a new bogeyman - diesel. They'll use it as an excuse to tax the poor who have to keep them and subsidise the industry by making new electric cars more affordable by use of incentives.

ba_barabus

RobAMerc wrote: »

Absolutely ! The motor industry is large in Europe and a simple way to keep it afloat is to come up with a new bogeyman - diesel. They'll use it as an excuse to tax the poor who have to keep them and subsidise the industry by making new electric cars more affordable by use of incentives.

In fairness the emissions issues with diesel have been known since the 80s. The ****e reliability is a newer problem with them

colm_mcm

RobAMerc wrote: »

Absolutely ! The motor industry is large in Europe and a simple way to keep it afloat is to come up with a new bogeyman - diesel. They'll use it as an excuse to tax the poor who have to keep them and subsidise the industry by making new electric cars more affordable by use of incentives.

I can’t see our government doing that, for one thing the upgrades to the public charging network needed to replace even one year of diesel car sales in a country like Ireland would be astronomical.
Because diesel car ownership trancends boundaries of social status, any punitive taxation on diesels across the board would be political suicide.

Philb76

As the other poster said the Toyota pr machine is full swing at the minute and it's working cos nearly every yaris and auris with a newish plate is a hybrid so instead of losing market share in Ireland which has a loyal following ther market share Will probably increase cos that's the way it's going anyway i think they have been very clever and the timings perfect

colm_mcm

They’re giving free upgrades to hybrid, people aren’t paying full price.

road_high

Philb76 wrote: »

As the other poster said the Toyota pr machine is full swing at the minute and it's working cos nearly every yaris and auris with a newish plate is a hybrid so instead of losing market share in Ireland which has a loyal following ther market share Will probably increase cos that's the way it's going anyway i think they have been very clever and the timings perfect

I dunno, I’m just not convinced offering less choice to drivers and window dressing it as being eco friendly will necessarily pay off. Trying to make diesel into a bogey man to suit their own corporate decisions to not invest in diesel as it doesn’t fit with their other world markets preferences.
Toyota were always a big fleet seller here and appear to be effectively giving that up.
A CHR hybrid vs say an Audi A3 diesel doing a large daily commute and driven hard on a motorway will simply not deliver the same fuel economy regardless of what they say

RobAMerc

colm_mcm wrote: »

I can’t see our government doing that, for one thing the upgrades to the public charging network needed to replace even one year of diesel car sales in a country like Ireland would be astronomical.
Because diesel car ownership trancends boundaries of social status, any punitive taxation on diesels across the board would be political suicide.

Did they not effectively do this already in 2008 to get us all into diesels?

Year on year they upped road tax claiming gas guzzlers needed to be obliterated so we have to increase the tax on them.

Then in 2008 - Diesel was hailed the white night and diesels were given a huge boost from a tax perspective - virtually making pre 2008 cars worthless overnight.

Same thing is going to happen with electric - anti diesel rhetoric has started already, mark my words road tax is going to be on the rise soon with massive incentives to buy electric - till we all end up in NEW electrics

colm_mcm

RobAMerc wrote: »

Did they not effectively do this already in 2008 to get us all into diesels?

Year on year they upped road tax claiming gas guzzlers needed to be obliterated so we have to increase the tax on them.

Then in 2008 - Diesel was hailed the white night and diesels were given a huge boost from a tax perspective - virtually making pre 2008 cars worthless overnight.

Same thing is going to happen with electric - anti diesel rhetoric has started already, mark my words road tax is going to be on the rise soon with massive incentives to buy electric - till we all end up in NEW electrics

No, what happened in 2008 was completely different. The example I always use is the Avensis. In 2007, a petrol Avensis cost €25500 and a diesel cost €31500.

Pre July 08, the prices of those cars broke down like this:

Petrol Avensis €19225
VRT €6375
Total €25500

Diesel Avensis €22050
VRT €9450
Total €31500

While there were (mainly) petrol cars that had their annual tax skyrocket, this was only applied to new cars registered after July, and not retrospectively lumped on cars that were already registered.

To go back to our Avensis example, the VRT on the diesel dropped from 30% to 20%, so a €31500 price became €27500, and €700 tax became €390.

Now that was on a diesel that wasn’t even that low emissions. There were others that went into the 14% and 16% bands.

Anyway, the point is, that the VRT being paid on cars 10 years on is minuscule compared to what it was in early 2008. They cannot repeat what was done in 2008 because they simply aren’t taking in the sort of money per car they were getting before the changes 10 years ago today.

pablo128

Can I add that the more electric cars that are sold, the less duty the state makes from fuel sales. So be careful what you wish for. They will simply raise prices somewhere else.

Leonard Hofstadter

road_high wrote: »

Philb76 wrote: »

As the other poster said the Toyota pr machine is full swing at the minute and it's working cos nearly every yaris and auris with a newish plate is a hybrid so instead of losing market share in Ireland which has a loyal following ther market share Will probably increase cos that's the way it's going anyway i think they have been very clever and the timings perfect

A CHR hybrid vs say an Audi A3 diesel doing a large daily commute and driven hard on a motorway will simply not deliver the same fuel economy regardless of what they say

And even if they did do the same fuel economy, they still wouldn't be as cheap to run as a diesel, diesel is 10-11 cent a litre cheaper, and you also can't claim the VAT back on petrol (although I understand Toyota are lobbying to change that).

The cost of fuel doesn't bother me because I do about 7,000 miles a year (it's one of the reasons why I run a six cylinder petrol), but if someone is doing 15,000 miles a year, or more, then all those times paying 10 cent a litre adds up over a year, even on a car that does 50 mpg.

I'm no fan of diesels but they certainly still have a place and I still think they're the best option for the high mileage motorist.

road_high

pablo128 wrote: »

Can I add that the more electric cars that are sold, the less duty the state makes from fuel sales. So be careful what you wish for. They will simply raise prices somewhere else.

Excise and tax on fuel, cars and all motoring is a massive (and very unjust) state revenue stream. There’s no way they’ll give it up or could even afford to so they’ll tax the electricity more in return.
Motoring should never been allowed to be used as the cash cow it is but we had some seriously sloven, lazy useless administrations in the 70s/80s who used it as an easy revenue stream to plug huge gaps in public finances- after all, people had no choice as they had to drive in this country so we all have cars.

Philb76

Absolutely agree hope my superb lasts for a while until government make decisions regarding diesel so much uncertainty personally I hope ther is a future for it cos like a lot of you guys its a requirement

lsjmhar

colm_mcm wrote:

No, what happened in 2008 was completely different. The example I always use is the Avensis. In 2007, a petrol Avensis cost €25500 and a diesel cost €31500.

colm_mcm wrote:

Pre July 08, the prices of those cars broke down like this:

colm_mcm wrote:

Petrol Avensis €19225 VRT €6375 Total €25500

colm_mcm wrote:

Diesel Avensis €22050 VRT €9450 Total €31500

colm_mcm wrote:

While there were (mainly) petrol cars that had their annual tax skyrocket, this was only applied to new cars registered after July, and not retrospectively lumped on cars that were already registered.

colm_mcm wrote:

To go back to our Avensis example, the VRT on the diesel dropped from 30% to 20%, so a €31500 price became €27500, and €700 tax became €390.

colm_mcm wrote:

Now that was on a diesel that wasn’t even that low emissions. There were others that went into the 14% and 16% bands.

colm_mcm wrote:

Anyway, the point is, that the VRT being paid on cars 10 years on is minuscule compared to what it was in early 2008. They cannot repeat what was done in 2008 because they simply aren’t taking in the sort of money per car they were getting before the changes 10 years ago today.

Good explanation. There is always more than meets the eye in these changeovers!

An increase in VRT for diesel cars seems likely..... high mileage users that get the VAT back wouldn't be overly bothered.... lower mileage users would be more likely to chose a petrol, hybrid or BEV option that suits their needs better.

Nothing radical is needed.

colm_mcm

If the gov were to increase VRT on the likes of a new Golf by say €5000, that’s not going to harm used values at all for the cars that are out there and registered.

Who is suggesting it would ?

colm_mcm

See post #103

John_Rambo

colm_mcm wrote: »

John Rambo , are you saying that in the next 5 years you think the government or Europe or someone will impose some sort of tax punishing existing diesel owners? Say, dir example -someone who buys a new diesel now.

Hi Colm. Thanks for the direct bump at me! Sorry for the lack of replies to my original post, busy week!!

To answer your question. Yes I do.

I believe there will be incentives to move from diesel along with a slow gradation of taxes that will punish diesel car owners over the next five years. I think they'll come up with a date (like they did with the 2008 July deal) and work onward from that date. I believe it will start with city/town zones and go Europe wide. I am convinced the latest push on PCP diesel cars is a last grasp attempt to push car buyers in to a scam that will leave their cars at a much less value than the value they're currently valued at.

*I was a diehard petrol car owner until I literally couldn't find a suitable petrol car for my needs. There were none available in the second hand market for me. So I have a diesel car now. I still have a lovely 18 year old, tiny engined small petrol car with new tyres that starts every day, passes the NCT every year but am having issues insuring because It's deemed to old!!

John_Rambo

John_Rambo wrote: »

.......... I am convinced the latest push on PCP diesel cars is a last grasp attempt to push car buyers in to a scam that will leave their cars at a much less value than the value they're currently valued at..........

Some PCP figures from just over 18 months ago, where's the scam? First figure is the retail, second is the GFMV and the 3rd is the % the GFMV is of the retail.

Car RRP 2016 GFMP % 
BMW 330e M Sport €53,550 €24,243 45.27171
Passat Estate Trendline 1.4TSI 125HP €30,390 €11,846 38.97993
Passat Estate Highline 1.6TDI 120HP €36,230 €14,182 39.14436
Passat Saloon Highline 2.0TDI 190HP €38,320 €15,328.00 40
A4 2.0TDI 150 ULTRA €39,600 €17,825 45.01263
A6 2.0TDI 150 SE €45,350 €20,025 44.15656
BMW 420i SE Gran Coupe €45,350 €21,006 46.31974

selectamatic

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

....and it's not even a Toyota. All Subaru, even manufactured by Subaru. The same company that made a one time "stand-out" Car (Impreza) look like your Granny's Civic.

The 86 is nearly all toyota bar the engine. It began as the ft-hs proto and subaru were only brought on board when Toyota bought fuji heavy industries and decided to go down the manual 4 cylinder route rather than the v6 hybrid route that was initially proposed.

All models are built at subaru's main plant as its the most suitable.

zilog_jones

bazz26 wrote: »

The smugness of that one in the Toyota ad going on about buying a hybrid because she's concerned about air pollution for her kids yet how much air pollution and energy is used by the factory that produced her hybrid or the damage the mining of lithium for her hybrid batteries is doing. Keep your existing car if that's really a concern.

I think you're missing the point - it's about local air pollution. People doing short trips to the school in their diesel SUV or whatever, where the particulate filter is not up to operating temperature, etc., are not doing anyone any favours. Air quality in urban areas of Europe has been negatively affected by the uptake in diesels in the past decade.

But I agree, those ads are bad.

The closest Toyota factory is in Burnaston in England, which does not have a direct effect on us - and even then I can't find any evidence of it directly creating air pollution. Toyota are very serious about renewable energy generation and sustainability at their plants. I went to the Tsutsumi plant in Toyota city (where they make the Prius, Camry and a few others) last year and there were a hell of a lot of solar panels, and trees and stuff - it was nice

And most Toyota hybrids use Ni-MH batteries, so no lithium either (there is a lot of fake news about lithium mining anyway).

AMKC

I see that Toyota have had 400 people on there website express on interest in the Camry and that them 400 people will be kept up to date on it.

colm_mcm

Let’s see how many they sell.

bazz26

Probably asking Toyota if they were serious or joking?

road_high

Mira Juicy Noblewoman wrote: »

What sort of idiots are in charge in Toyota that think is a good idea not to have a diesel which is what will actually sell, especially in Ireland.

I think 1/3 of Toyota Ireland sales at least were still diesel last year. Hence I can see the absolutely desperation they have to try flog hybrids and the sudden “diesel is evil” mantra. All their major peers are for now at least sticking with diesel as an option and there are still some damn good diesels out there- and for us high mileage drivers long may it remain so

road_high

AMKC wrote: »

I see that Toyota have had 400 people on there website express on interest in the Camry and that them 400 people will be kept up to date on it.

What are they trying to prove? Asking people to register interest in a pretty anonymous large old school petrol saloon seems pretty odd- are they that unsure of future sales?

CJhaughey

pablo128 wrote: »

Good point. I've just been googling them there, and for such a popular car worldwide, there doesn't seem to be a hatchback or estate version. Definitely a no from me then. I like to be able to fold the seats and carry a lot of stuff on occasions. I'd never fit my child's bike in the boot of that let alone a washing machine or something.

Not that many good sized Japanese wagons any longer unless you count the CRV as a wagon.
The Germans have the market to themselves apart from Mondeo.

grogi

road_high wrote: »

I think 1/3 of Toyota Ireland sales at least were still diesel last year. Hence I can see the absolutely desperation they have to try flog hybrids and the sudden “diesel is evil” mantra. All their major peers are for now at least sticking with diesel as an option and there are still some damn good diesels out there- and for us high mileage drivers long may it remain so

In 2017 37.59% we diesels to be exact... Yet in 2018 half of the sales are hybrids.

TrailerBob

I had a 2017 Camry for 3 weeks in the States. Just back Monday. I actually think it could sell here. It's not exciting, but no Toyota saloon has been. It's basic enough to be familiar to the Avensis buyer, and seems quite well put together. I put 3000 miles on it covering 8 states and I have nothing bad to say about it. It's pretty forgettable, but so were the Accord and the Galant..

Would I buy it... No,
Would Paddy aged 58 from Thurles buy it.. possibly

V8 Interceptor

colm_mcm wrote: »

Europe has moved on from non German or non premium large saloons.
The Camry went the way of the Mitsubishi Galant, Opel Omega, Nissan Maxima, Ford Scorpio, Honda Accord, Peugeot 607, Renault Safrane etc etc.

You'd include the Accord in that list?

V8 Interceptor

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Wonder will the UK get them too, they currently don't have the saloon Corolla .

The English don't have the same love for the small saloon as we do here.

TrailerBob

My father would call it 'a fine car'... he lives in 1643... he'd buy it

ongarite

V8 Interceptor wrote: »

You'd include the Accord in that list?

Honda stopped selling the Accord in Europe at end of 2014.
They have no plans to return to that market segment.

V8 Interceptor

ongarite wrote: »

Honda stopped selling the Accord in Europe at end of 2014. They have no plans to return to that market segment.

But that was the D segment. The rest of the cars on the list were on the next one up.

colm_mcm

I would never have seen the Accord as a direct rival to the likes of an Avensis or Insignia. They were always a bit more expensive and that little bit bigger. I don’t agree with compartmentalizing cars into different segments - especially as cars get progressively bigger, but the Accord would have been regarded as a big car. It wasn’t premium, but it was still a step above the likes of a Mondeo.

Atlantic Dawn

Comfy seats and something like all the ultra muck savage Supermacs in the country on the sat nav might just make it a big seller.

vectra

colm_mcm wrote: »

I would never have seen the Accord as a direct rival to the likes of an Avensis or Insignia. They were always a bit more expensive and that little bit bigger. I don’t agree with compartmentalizing cars into different segments - especially as cars get progressively bigger, but the Accord would have been regarded as a big car. It wasn’t premium, but it was still a step above the likes of a Mondeo.

OI..!!!!
Leave the Mondeo alone :pac::pac:

colm_mcm

vectra wrote: »

OI..!!!!
Leave the Mondeo alone :pac::pac:

Or long wheelbase Focus as I call it

scooby77

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Wonder will the UK get them too, they currently don't have the saloon Corolla and no mention of the Camry on their website.

UK are getting Camry. Also Corolla/Auris saloon due for release in 2020 seemingly pencilled in for UK return also. Usual spy shots available online.

V8 Interceptor

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

Really? I think the GT86 is absolutely hideous, ugly and a really poor design. The rear end is a mess with ugly lights that in no way match the front. Two fat cheap ugly tail pipes don’t help things at the rear either. The wheels are the ugliest OE wheels I have ever seen on any sports car and the ride height is plain ridiculous. I’m not even going to get into the miserly 200bhp and lack of a turbo. It’s just wrong on every plane. I know they can be modified and made look good but you shouldn’t have to change almost everything on a sports car to make it look nice.

Toyota have in no way done the 86 name any justice with their design and the car itself will never have even a fraction of the iconic status the AE86 has today.

I like the GT86!

ba_barabus

I'd buy the new Camry. DERIDE ME

Stanford

I have a 2007 Avensis which I intend to change this year but I can't warm to the diesel Avensis, based on the Avensis being phased out is it a bad idea to even consider a diesel avensis at this stage?

V8 Interceptor

ba_barabus wrote: »

I'd buy the new Camry. DERIDE ME

Me too. The Camry, when it was here, used to have a slightly exclusive edge to it. Not quite executive but not far off.

In the US however its derided as a 'Mom Moblie'

AMKC

Stanford wrote: »

I have a 2007 Avensis which I intend to change this year but I can't warm to the diesel Avensis, based on the Avensis being phased out is it a bad idea to even consider a diesel avensis at this stage?

Why not just wait for the new Camry that this thread is about and buy one of them when it comes out? Of course if you not want to wait you could look at the C-HR.

Stanford

AMKC wrote: »

Why not just wait for the new Camry that this thread is about and buy one of them when it comes out? Of course if you not want to wait you could look at the C-HR.

Thanks but I can't afford to buy new, do you think Dealers will discount used diesel Avensis stock as the year goes on to provide for the new Camry?

road_high

Stanford wrote: »

Thanks but I can't afford to buy new, do you think Dealers will discount used diesel Avensis stock as the year goes on to provide for the new Camry?

I believe they're well on run out as we speak. Not sure if stocks have dried up yet but looking at the sales figures it must be close.