USC Abolition

thomas 123

Hitman3000 wrote: »

90,000 houses a year being built during the good times. Lots of vat, excise and don't forget income tax from the 1000's of building workers. Big tax hole to fill. Money has to come from somewhere. When the bubble burst we were still spending more than we took in . National debt is over 200 billion.

Absolutely & this is the logical argument. Not the social collapse of the state that the other guy was on about :P

relax carry on

thomas 123 wrote: »

Absolutely & this is the logical argument. Not the social collapse of the state that the other guy was on about :P

If you bothered to read it you note I didn't sate removing the USC would collapse the state. I gave you part of the reason it was brought in which was to stabilise the tax base. I said that the wider argument people need to have is what kind of society you wish to have. Tax funds that society and the USC is party of that tax fund. Reduce it without replacing it with something else and the society you live in is affected. People always want to pay less tax or let someone else pay more without bothering to think about what it's for. So what society do you want and how do you want to fund it?

Idbatterim

relax carry on wrote: »

Part of the reasoning for bringing it in was because of the over reliance on tax take from unstable sources such as stamp duty. It was an attempt to expand the tax base and put it on a more stable footing so it wouldn't be as susceptible to future shocks. The LPT is another example.

Everybody seems to want to go back to the good old days of the Celtic Tiger which was an anomaly. The days where politicians eroded stable tax take by buying elections with giveaway budgets. It's like we have learned nothing at all.

I’ll tell you what I’ve learned. A large amount of the population are paying nowhere near there fair share and it seems many of us on this thread are being taken for a ride by the bulksjif system we have. Insane income tax rates at a pittance of an income. How much is it actually costing us?

Foxhound38

The people who need to pay the USC are generally too busy working to go out and protest unlike the water charges crowd or those currently looking for us to provide them with furreva homes as soon as they ask for it. Therefore the tax will stay.

As mentioned in the thread, I don't have a problem with a rainy day fund as long as it's ringfenced as such and not what was supposed to be a temporary, emergency measure. The USC is unfit for purpose.

thomas 123

relax carry on wrote: »

If you bothered to read it you note I didn't sate removing the USC would collapse the state. I gave you part of the reason it was brought in which was to stabilise the tax base. I said that the wider argument people need to have is what kind of society you wish to have. Tax funds that society and the USC is party of that tax fund. Reduce it without replacing it with something else and the society you live in is affected. People always want to pay less tax or let someone else pay more without bothering to think about what it's for. So what society do you want and how do you want to fund it?

I read it twice my friend.

1) What notable changes to society in Ireland have you seen since 2011 that are a direct result of the introduction of USC? Thats what im asking.

2)What has USC done for me? how has this impacted me as a full time worker positively?(Please don't say economic growth - that is 100% to do with the rest of the USA/UK/most of Europe/Asia doing well)

I just think your point is ridiculous. Is it wrong for someone to want to pay less tax?

The Bishop Basher

Foxhound38 wrote: »

As mentioned in the thread, I don't have a problem with a rainy day fund as long as it's ringfenced as such and not what was supposed to be a temporary, emergency measure.

How many times do we have to get burned to learn that fire hurts..

The vast majority of people are getting poorer year on year, our services are disintegrating, talk to anyone working in health or the Guards.

Yet were paying more tax then ever.

Austerity, although never talked about any more, is still very much alive and well in Ireland.

thomas 123

DevLit wrote: »

100%. We have to much reliance on social welfare.

My parents know a chap who is 40, lives in a 3 bed council house in Howth that he 'inherited' from his parents. The house is worth 450K.

This guy has never worked in his life, and does courses to keep his welfare. Absolute joke. This house should be at least give to a family who would make better use of it.

The health spend is mad as well. There is so much inefficiently. With the money we spend, there is no reason we shouldn't have a top class health system. But any changes that are initiated, and there's strike after strike.

I think we need to move on from this mindset.

Irish Water was identified as a quango early on and I for one am glad these protests took place.

The only people who really should have any gripe is the GWS people(Of which I am one).

Its our favorite thing to do in Ireland, let a problem develop to the point of no return and then throw money into a black hole, complain about it for a few years, sell it to the highest bidder, pretend there is a fair market and competition (Eircom is an example of this).

Keyzer

USC will never be done away with. Ever.

The sooner you accept this the better. Move on.

thomas 123

Keyzer wrote: »

USC will never be done away with. Ever.

The sooner you accept this the better. Move on.

Sheep No.2 of the afternoon. Would the French accept it I wonder?

Just to note, I note don't mean to personally insult its just a funny mindset we have when it comes to being shafted by our government.

Keyzer

thomas 123 wrote: »

Sheep No.2 of the afternoon. Would the French accept it I wonder?

Just to note, I note don't mean to personally insult its just a funny mindset we have when it comes to being shafted by our government.

I'm no sheep. I abhor USC.

I'm merely stating the obvious. It came into effect with no protests and little or no opposition from the public. Compare that to water charges which caused uproar.

Its never, ever going away.

Idbatterim

Renua should run with usc abolition over 3-4 years. If they actually want to make themselves relevant ...

thomas 123

Keyzer wrote: »

I'm no sheep. I abhor USC.

I'm merely stating the obvious. It came into effect with no protests and little or no opposition from the public. Compare that to water charges which caused uproar.

Its never, ever going away.

Its the unfortunate reality for sure!

L1011

Idbatterim wrote: »

Renua should run with usc abolition over 3-4 years. If they actually want to make themselves relevant ...

The Renua you talk of ceased to exist in February 2016 and isn't coming back.

MayoSalmon

Any party which campaigns on the reduction of the current Personal Income tax levels and especially the abolition of USC will get my vote.

tom1ie

I don’t mind paying tax if the money is spent efficiently and provide people with good services.
It’s clear to see there is massive wastage of taxpayers money in many areas of the economy, eg
health 15.2 billion spent and record numbers on trolleys in a and e and record outpatient waiting lists all the while fg and ff advocate private health insurance- unacceptable.
Social welfare- you hear examples all the time on these forums of people in heavily subsidized houses that don’t work, which is just not fair on the middle and high income families that have 2 adults out working and high childcare costs.
Childcare costs- any steps taken to reduce these costs only lead to private crèches increasing their costs to absorb the supposed benefit to parents. Tax credits are an obvious way to combat this, which for some reason the government won’t do.
Transport- the constant re design of projects without a shovel being put into the ground is chronic and costing a fortune, eg metro north to metrolink, Swift way to bus connects. None of these projects built yet millions spent on them.

I could go on and on, but this is why I and plenty of others, In fact I would say the majority, feel that tax is in fact robbery.
If it was spent correctly and efficiently then I would have absolutely no problem with it and I guarantee we would have a state of the art public transport system, public health system and top education system.

VinLieger

Getting rid of USC would be insanity. Currently 1/3 of all workers pay zero income tax as they fall outside our archaic tax bracket system. USC is the most progressive tax we have that broadens the tax base and brings this third of workers back into it.


We need a broader tax base than we had in 07/08 to help get us through whatever the next crisis might be as one of the issues we had back then was how much we had narrowed it through endless give away budgets.


If anything we should be increasing USC and decreasing or adjusting the tax brackets to continue broadening the tax base as much as possible.


I do deffinitely agree we need to take a serious look at wastage though. I would suggest first starting with how our tax intake is organised and distributed. One of the big issues we have is the vast majority of tax goes into one giant pot and is then doled out basically on the premise of who has done favours for which department and when. It encourages pork barrel projects and wastage across the board as there is no accountability for what is spent and where.

MayoSalmon

VinLieger wrote: »

Getting rid of USC would be insanity. Currently 1/3 of all workers pay zero income tax as they fall outside our archaic tax bracket system. USC is the most progressive tax we have that broadens the tax base and brings this third of workers back into it.


We need a broader tax base than we had in 07/08 to help get us through whatever the next crisis might be as one of the issues we had back then was how much we had narrowed it through endless give away budgets.


If anything we should be increasing USC and decreasing or adjusting the tax brackets to continue broadening the tax base as much as possible.


I do deffinitely agree we need to take a serious look at wastage though. I would suggest first starting with how our tax intake is organised and distributed. One of the big issues we have is the vast majority of tax goes into one giant pot and is then doled out basically on the premise of who has done favours for which department and when. It encourages pork barrel projects and wastage across the board as there is no accountability for what is spent and where.

The insanity is the vast sums of money the government need to thieve from the peoples wages to fund services....that my friend is the insanity in this matter.

We have the 5th highest health spend per captia in the world..no amount of so called reform is going to turn that mess around. Public healthcare has failed and has failed in the majority of countries in the world. Delivering a more efficient service just cannot be delivered publicly. Lets be honest about it. You only need to look across the water to the UK to acknowledge that.

tom1ie

MayoSalmon wrote: »

The insanity is the vast sums of money the government need to thieve from the peoples wages to fund services....that my friend is the insanity in this matter.

We have the 5th highest health spend per captia in the world..no amount of so called reform is going to turn that mess around. Public healthcare has failed and has failed in the majority of countries in the world. Delivering a more efficient service just cannot be delivered publicly. Lets be honest about it. You only need to look across the water to the UK to acknowledge that.

Well if you look at the Japanese health care model, which has an ageing population, the patient is responsible for paying 10, 20, or 30% of the cost of a treatment depending on age and outcome of a means test and the state picks up the remainder. They have a much smaller expenditure per capita compared to the us for example.
Public health can work but ironically everyone needs to contribute a percentage to the final cost, kind of like everyone paying usc.
However as I stated previously I just don’t like paying tax because it’s poorly spent.

jjmcclure

Unfortunately those in Ireland who are even moderately successful will be expected to pay for those who have not been "as fortunate" (or bothered to get off their ass and work for it).


This group, I call them The Tax Donkeys, will continue to be penalised and pilloried for making over €100k, like they are Pablo Escobar or someone.


No government in Ireland will every tackle

- Taxing everyone in work in a fair fashion
- The grossly inefficient public service
- Taxing state benefits
- Benefit fraud and lifetime (even generational) benefit scroungers


Why? Because they would be voted out by "de mon in de streeat".


Sad but true

Idbatterim

Hundred s of thousands of hard working people here, if they don’t stand up and vote renua and allow the other parties to just blow all their money on welfare etc, they can blame themselves at this stage ... fair to say fg are already looking at rowing back on rewarding the taxpayer etc.

tom1ie

Idbatterim wrote: »

Hundred s of thousands of hard working people here, if they don’t stand up and vote renua and allow the other parties to just blow all their money on welfare etc, they can blame themselves at this stage ... fair to say fg are already looking at rowing back on rewarding the taxpayer etc.

Are Renua not gone now, and to be honest all politicians are window dressing. It’s the senior civil servants that call the shots.

Idbatterim

tom1ie wrote: »

Are Renua not gone now, and to be honest all politicians are window dressing. It’s the senior civil servants that call the shots.

No. They run on a platform that fg claimed they did years ago. Visit their website renua.ie

oholly121

Keyzer wrote: »

I'm no sheep. I abhor USC.

I'm merely stating the obvious. It came into effect with no protests and little or no opposition from the public. Compare that to water charges which caused uproar.

Its never, ever going away.

No that's just not true water charges where protested where applicable form the start with community organized protests and non-payment by all walks of life

Id say if there was mass protest to something in this case USC it would become an issue - Again Irish Water is evidence of that

oholly121

jjmcclure wrote: »

Unfortunately those in Ireland who are even moderately successful will be expected to pay for those who have not been "as fortunate" (or bothered to get off their ass and work for it).


This group, I call them The Tax Donkeys, will continue to be penalised and pilloried for making over €100k, like they are Pablo Escobar or someone.


No government in Ireland will every tackle

- Taxing everyone in work in a fair fashion
- The grossly inefficient public service
- Taxing state benefits
- Benefit fraud and lifetime (even generational) benefit scroungers


Why? Because they would be voted out by "de mon in de streeat".


Sad but true

Most of the class that you describe above don't or never have voted?

So i cant say your comment is 100% true ?

jjmcclure

oholly121 wrote: »

Most of the class that you describe above don't or never have voted?

So i cant say your comment is 100% true ?

Sources for these facts above?


Civil servants have never voted?

oholly121

jjmcclure wrote: »

Sources for these facts above?


Civil servants have never voted?

Civil Servants Yes

Majority of working class people No

keane2097

Mother of god the cheerleading for Renua is bizarre. Does anyone remember their deranged law and order proposals before the last election?

I wouldn't trust them to run a mass collection.

VinLieger

Idbatterim wrote: »

No. They run on a platform that fg claimed they did years ago. Visit their website renua.ie

They have just 2 councilors, their leadership has fled and their 2017 agm was addressed by john waters.......... they are as legitimate an option for election as the lint in my pocket

Beric Dondarrion

Keyzer wrote: »

I'm no sheep. I abhor USC.

I'm merely stating the obvious. It came into effect with no protests and little or no opposition from the public. Compare that to water charges which caused uproar.

Its never, ever going away.

IMHO, it came in to effect with little or no opposition from the public because it was introduced at a at time when the country was on it's knees. There was a huge hole in the finances that needed to be plugged very quickly. Hence the lie that was sold that this was a "temporary measure".

Anyone who lost there job wouldn't protest a charge that they would not see affecting their seriously reduced income. Anyone else working through the recession was glad to be earning 80 to 85% of what they were prior to the recession kicking in and the majority were PAYE workers so the change was made for them. They weren't asked if they wanted to accept the USC, they couldn't protest or refuse to pay it (unlike the water charge fiasco - Please Give us your PPS number and money!!). No point in taking it up with your employer, they were just the messengers. Take it out at the ballot box.

Most of us took the then government at their word that as soon as the ship was steadied, the charge would be abolished (or absorbed in to the taxation system). Then Enda K. let the cat out of the bag and said that it was too efficient a tax to abolish completely and it brought in too much revenue to even consider getting rid of it straight away. No sh*t Sherlock. Now we are stuck with successive government's tinkering around the edges, a 0.5% cut here or there to rates which in the grand scheme of things make no tangible difference when other taxes/changes in the budget kick in.

L1011

Idbatterim wrote: »

No. They run on a platform that fg claimed they did years ago. Visit their website renua.ie

Ran. They ran on that platform two years ago and lost all their seats

They are now a single issue hard right Catholic party.

You appear to be the only person who hasn't noticed that