Ryanair seating policy!

Irish Steve

Squatter wrote: »

It is mandatory for an adult travelling with children under 12 (excl. infants) to purchase a seat so that the children in their booking get a free reserved seat. A maximum of four children for every one adult on the booking will get a free reserved seat. This way adults can choose where to seat their children.

Did the system enable your son to pick two specific seats for his two kids?

Simple answer, No, as there were too many people already checked in for the flight. The best he could get was A B & F, which was not ideal, but was probably complied with the strict legal interpretation of the relevant rules.

That said, knowing what I know, I'd not be at all happy trying to deal with someone in Seat A and then Seat F in the event of a sudden depressurisation, the risk to the parent in Seat B having to try to get across to Seat F and back again to seat B without oxygen doesn't bear thinking about for too long, and I'd not be happy about the ability of a 7 year old to deal on their own with an oxygen mask with possibly a seat belt on and in the chaos of a sudden decompression, and I suspect that the cabin crew would be under pressure, and likely not in a position to respond quickly to that sort of situation, especially if they were dealing with catering or other services.

I've been able to check into this in a bit more detail. The flight/holiday was booked relatively late, and as a result, there was no option to get 3 seats together in the assigned area. There was an option to try a significantly higher cost area of the aircraft, (€17 rather than €4) which might have had alternatives, but given how late it was booked, it was unlikely.

On looking at the Ryanair T's & C's, they have given themselves wriggle room to get out of their requirement, so it's not going to be worth taking this further, as their "standard" reply will be that if there are not enough seats to allocate to the family, you will have to book an alternative flight.

For adults required to purchase a reserved seat, a reduced fee of €4.00 will apply. These standard €4.00 seats are available for selection in rows 18-33. Seats in rows 18-33 will be free for children. If an adult required to purchase a reserved seat selects a seat in a different row, they must pay the difference in price. Children will be charged the full price of these seats.

https://www.ryanair.com/gb/en/useful-info/help-centre/faq-overview/Travelling-with-children/Will-families-be-split-up-if-they-do-not-wish-to-pay-for-allocated-seating

That link is not the full story, in that they've given themselves an option to gouge the customer if they don't check in a couple of months ahead of travelling, so if you book late, the chances are high that you're going to get a nasty shock at checkin.

I have to be blunt and say that this policy sucks, in that in some situations, a child and parent could be put at risk as a direct result of the policy that Ryanair have introduced to increase their revenue.

They are already saying that a parent has to pay an additional sum to secure seating together, and then when it comes down to it, they can't provide the option that they've charged more for, unless you pay an additional substantial premium. I may be seeing it somewhat simplistically, but if there's a chance of causing harm, which there is, the Regulator should insist that Ryanair have to forgo additional "optional" charges in order to ensure the safety of the passengers.

I'm aware that this is a different issue from the issue raised by the original poster, but it's part of the same issue, which is that Ryanair have made a very clear and effective positive decision to deliberately separate people that are on one booking, unless they pay a (sometimes more expensive than the flight) charge for the "privilege" of sitting together. For me, a policy that puts the Health and Safety of a minor at risk is a bad policy, and it's not one that I am comfortable with, now that the reality of how it works has been revealed.

I'm not sure if there is any point taking this further with the IAA, the supposed regulators in Ireland seem to be pretty spineless where these sorts of issues are concerned, so there's probably not much chance of getting a sensible result on this, even though it should be very simple.

There is a possibility that the Advertising Standards Authority might be interested in this, as it looks to me like Ryanair are indulging in misleading advertising, in that the actual charge compared to the advertised charge can be very different.

Either way, the one clear thing that comes out of this is that parents cannot rely on the fact that they've booked a "child" seat option, they have to also check in very early after the 60 day window opens in order to ensure that they get the expected seating in the area of the cabin that's reserved for these options, if they don't, the additional charges can come as a nasty and expensive surprise.

AfterDusk

AfterDusk wrote: »

The problem is that the system deliberately separates parties travelling together, including families, when there are ample seats together remaining. It is done to purposely force people to pay the extra. It's disgusting.

It's done as many will pay extra for an aisle seat, a window seat or to sit with someone they know.
Decent idea imo

Irish Steve

Augeo wrote: »

It's done as many will pay extra for an aisle seat, a window seat or to sit with someone they know.
Decent idea imo

Not if it could result in serious injury or death of a minor. That's unacceptable to me, the risks are known, and should not be an excuse to gouge passengers.

fritzelly

Irish Steve wrote: »

Not if it could result in serious injury or death of a minor. That's unacceptable to me, the risks are known, and should not be an excuse to gouge passengers.

It's simple - pay the extra, whatever it may be to sit together or go with a different airline and pay more for your flight to sit together.

Your making up a hullabaloo about a "what if" when in reality Ryanair have never had a serious accident ever and if it ever did happen fingers wouldn't be pointing at Ryanair but the parents for not making sure they were seated together.
Dangerous accidents more likely to happen driving kids to school or on a school bus when you are not even there (check recent news)

endacl

Irish Steve wrote: »

Not if it could result in serious injury or death of a minor. That's unacceptable to me, the risks are known, and should not be an excuse to gouge passengers.

Is sitting belted into an airline seat a noted cause of serious injury or death to children? If so, surely they'd be at the same risk no matter what adult was sitting belted into an adjacent airline seat?

Irish Steve

I outlined the risks in my earlier post, and it has nothing to do with the seat belts as such, and paying the extra does not guarantee that you will get seats together, which is what most people thought was/is happening as a result of paying the "parent" extra charge.

The reason I am sticking my hand in the air and calling foul is because I too thought that Ryanair's policy was in place to prevent minors from being separated from a parent, but it turns out that in some cases, that policy (which is there because of regulatory requirements) is not working as people expected it to.

When was the last time you listened CLOSELY to the pre flight safety briefing. At one point, it states " parents travelling with young children should attend to their own mask first" when talking about what has to happen in the even of cabin depressurisation and the oxygen masks deploying. If your wondering what the *** I'm talking about, do a Google search on "The Time of Useful Consciousness" and take a look at one of the tables there.

There is a very simple reason for that specific warning, there is no way if you are in seat B of a specific row that you can get to Seat F with your mask on, and with it off, there is a good chance that you won't get to a child in Seat F and back to your mask before you pass out, possibly fatally. To the best of my knowledge, Ryanair is the ONLY airline that is positively separating passengers on a booking, and as a result of a specific scenario last week that I am now aware of, the policy of charging extra to ensure minors are sitting with a parent is not always working, which results in a minor being separated from their parent. That's bad news, and should not be acceptable.

I may not like that Ryanair are seeking to maximise their revenue, but I can understand it, and choose how I play their game.

I can't understand (or accept) that because it's not working correctly all the time, a revenue focussed policy could have direct and massive consequences for a family through no fault of the family.

trellheim

What would be a better way of doing it then ? Force the punter to select seats at time of booking if there's minors on the booking

Irish Steve

trellheim wrote: »

What would be a better way of doing it then ? Force the punter to select seats at time of booking if there's minors on the booking

Without being able to see the logic that the reservation and check in systems operate with, I can't give a definitive answer.



It would seem to me that as soon as a booking that has minors on it is taken, the system should allocate seats to that booking, to ensure that the group is together, regardless of what area of the aircraft they are in. If the booking is a late booking, and there is no longer a block large enough to put the group together, then one option is to not take the booking, and offer an alternative flight, or flag it to the person making the booking and on the boarding card that it will be necessary to get the cabin crew to do a manual reallocation at boarding, which they are legally entitled to do.


The problem at the moment seems to be that the system at present seeks to allocate family seating in the area of row 18-33, and looks for a significant additional payment to use Rows in front of 18 if it can't allocate them in the normal area. For the reasons I gave in an earlier post, given that the regulators require minors to be seated with an adult member of the group, it should be a requirement that the booking or check in systems allocate wherever is appropriate, without seeking to add late charges, given that they've already had an additional fee for putting the group together.

Steer55

God forbid if something were to happen during a flight and an unaccompanied minor was seated next to me I would do my utmost to unstrap the child and get him or her onto the escape slide should the plane need to make an emergency landing. I am sure this would be true of vast majority of the adult population. Everybody sticks together during a crisis.

PlaneSpeeking

hurler32 wrote: »

<Snipped the hyperbole>
Booked a flight for family of 5 to Europe all teenagers and ourselves husband-wife . When I decline paying for seats on check in , it allocates 5 middle seats all over the plane ... none within talking distance of each other not to mind even 2 of the 5 together . Their aloghterim it appears is set to have families seated as far away from each other as possible and split up to individual seats ... all their short of doing is putting children in cages away from their parents ....
Wouldn’t it be easier charge everyone extra fares when they book rather than forcing people to pay extra for their seats at check in and pi55ing people off ??

Just paid 3 GBP extra to pick the seat coming back from Manchester next month.

Aisle seat, near back - jacks and drink trolley adjacent.

Worth it.

The way I see it - you had your chance to choose a row for the five of you KNOWING that failing to do so could mean 11B, 14E, 21B, 27B and 33E being allocated. It was, so that's the consequence.

I fail to see the issue here.

PlaneSpeeking

Irish Steve wrote: »

Not if it could result in serious injury or death of a minor. That's unacceptable to me, the risks are known, and should not be an excuse to gouge passengers.

Where exactly are you flying to ????

11 years of weekly Ryanair flights and the worst that has happened was tripping over by own backpack!

If paying a tenner GUARANTEES your child's safety and you don't pay it, it says about about parenting priorities than the airline's policies I feel.

Irish Steve

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Where exactly are you flying to ????

11 years of weekly Ryanair flights and the worst that has happened was tripping over by own backpack!

If paying a tenner GUARANTEES your child's safety and you don't pay it, it says about about parenting priorities than the airline's policies I feel.

I thought I made it clear. In the case I am referring to, my son DID pay the fee required by Ryanair to allocate them together, but due to the lateness of the booking, their system did NOT allocate the minors in seats with him. In relation to the seats on the return flight, there were no choices, they got the last 4 seats on the aircraft.



As for safety, I presume you drive a car. I presume that you fasten your seat belt when driving, despite the fact that in years of driving, you've not probably not needed to use the protection provided by the seat belt. In close on 50 years of driving, I've never been in the situation where the seat belt was a significant factor, but despite that, I still put it on, as "the system" deems that a seat belt is a valid and useful part of road safety.



With modern aircraft, the chances of an engine failure during take off are statistically very low, but despite that, recurring simulator checks are almost certain to include a check that the pilot is able to cope with the challenges of that failure.



So, with respect to minors, the same principle applies, the regulator requires minors to be seated with an adult member of their party, to try and ensure that in the event of an emergency, they can be given as much support and assistance as possible by a person they know.

PlaneSpeeking

Irish Steve wrote: »

I thought I made it clear. In the case I am referring to, my son DID pay the fee required by Ryanair to allocate them together, but due to the lateness of the booking, their system did NOT allocate the minors in seats with him. In relation to the seats on the return flight, there were no choices, they got the last 4 seats on the aircraft.

Not trying to be difficult but I'm really not seeing how that is Ryanair's fault there ?

Amirani

Irish Steve wrote: »

So, with respect to minors, the same principle applies, the regulator requires minors to be seated with an adult member of their party, to try and ensure that in the event of an emergency, they can be given as much support and assistance as possible by a person they know.

In your hypothetical situation, what happens if a parent is travelling with their 4 (or more) children? There's no real feasible way that they'll be able to put on their own oxygen mask as well as their 4 kids, who will be in at least 2 different rows regardless. There's obviously some expectation built in that minors can be helped by other passengers.

I'm not sure the regulation is built around ensuring parents are available to assist their kids in an emergency. Otherwise by the same logic, parents would be banned from travelling with more than a certain number of kids.

jimmycrackcorm

Ryanair could save a lot of this constant pricing theme discussing on the Internet if they reversed the charging structure. I. E. Offer full price for seat allocation with baggage and priority by default. Then offer discounts to remove those.

plodder

Steer55 wrote: »

God forbid if something were to happen during a flight and an unaccompanied minor was seated next to me I would do my utmost to unstrap the child and get him or her onto the escape slide should the plane need to make an emergency landing. I am sure this would be true of vast majority of the adult population. Everybody sticks together during a crisis.

What if you are seated several rows back with the child, but the parent is at the exit row and tries to fight their way back to the child? They would be impeding everyone's exit.

Also, the correct term there is not "Unaccompanied minor". It's a minor who has been deliberately separated from its parent by Ryanair. The parent is still responsible for the child - not Ryanair.

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

Ryanair could save a lot of this constant pricing theme discussing on the Internet if they reversed the charging structure. I. E. Offer full price for seat allocation with baggage and priority by default. Then offer discounts to remove those.

or they could shut down whatever department that dreams up these ever more ridiculous ways to 'nickel and dime' their passengers. It's all well and good when real costs are incurred (meals, baggage handling etc) and giving passengers the choice to incur the charge or not. Also, if there is some advantage that a passenger is prepared to pay extra for, eg extra legroom, a seat near the front, it makes economic sense to vary the prices for those extras. But, in a pre-booked situation, it's normally taken for granted that groups can be seated together. It normally makes sense for both parties to allow that. You wouldn't go to a cinema, or a football match if you were charged extra, for seats together with your group. I find it hard to comprehend why people think it's okay when flying.

theyoungchap

Steer55 wrote: »

Be glad of couple hours break from the teenagers. Don't fret they will manage fine without you.

Society's problem rather than yours! Enjoy the bliss.

Love the hatred towards Ryanair, I am surprised people don't expect somebody to carry their bag from the car park for free for the 50 quid you've paid Ryanair.

plodder

Can't speak for anyone else, but I don't hate them. I use them all the time.

Doesn't mean I have to agree with everything they do.

theyoungchap

Amirani wrote: »

In your hypothetical situation, what happens if a parent is travelling with their 4 (or more) children? There's no real feasible way that they'll be able to put on their own oxygen mask as well as their 4 kids, who will be in at least 2 different rows regardless. There's obviously some expectation built in that minors can be helped by other passengers.

I'm not sure the regulation is built around ensuring parents are available to assist their kids in an emergency. Otherwise by the same logic, parents would be banned from travelling with more than a certain number of kids.

So do you think there should be 1 adult for every 2-3 kids? Brilliant.

jimmycrackcorm

plodder wrote:

Also, the correct term there is not "Unaccompanied minor". It's a minor who has been deliberately separated from its parent by Ryanair. The parent is still responsible for the child - not Ryanair.

Easily fixed by Ryanair enforcing bookings that a minor and parent be seated together in paid allocated seating.

fritzelly

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Easily fixed by Ryanair enforcing bookings that a minor and parent be seated together in paid allocated seating.

...and done at time of booking not 48 hours before the flight

Irish Steve

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Easily fixed by Ryanair enforcing bookings that a minor and parent be seated together in paid allocated seating.

...and done at time of booking not 48 hours before the flight

Indeed, and it was my understanding that their "parent" charge was meant to facilitate exactly that situation, but we found out last week that the system doesn't work like that.


I guess that my main concern is that I do understand the implications of the situation, but there are many parents that would not be aware of what can happen if things go wrong, and in the middle of an in flight emergency is not the time for them to suddenly discover that they can't deal with the situation. One parent, with a mask on, could cope with assisting minors in the part of the row they are in, and also provide some assistance to the part row in front and behind them, which is acceptable. The problem arises when they have to try and provide assistance across the aisle, B to D or E to C might be possible, but anything else is not, and as I mentioned, depending on a whole range of possible variables, you may have 20 seconds to realise what's happening, and get the mask on and working.



What I'd like to see happen is that the boarding card should have to carry a carefully worded caution in the situation of a minor being separated, that would alert the parent to the situation, and "suggest" that the parent seek the (legal) assistance of the cabin crew in getting the minor moved to a suitable seat. I'd like to hope that a person in a seat that's needed for a minor would not give the cabin crew or the parent a hard time if asked to move to a different seat. Having said that, I'm also aware that some people can be very obstructive about their perceived "rights", which is why I think a more formal approach is needed, so that the cabin crew have something to base their requirement on. The ultimate sanction if a passenger is not accepting the valid instructions of the crew is to deny boarding, hopefully it wouldn't come to that.

fritzelly

Irish Steve wrote: »

Indeed, and it was my understanding that their "parent" charge was meant to facilitate exactly that situation, but we found out last week that the system doesn't work like that.

So you want Ryanair to inconvenience everyone else that booked in early/paid for a seat to accommodate you because you left it til the last minute to decide to check in hoping you would get 2 seats together and save a few euro.

Irish Steve

fritzelly wrote: »

So you want Ryanair to inconvenience everyone else that booked in early/paid for a seat to accommodate you because you left it til the last minute to decide to check in hoping you would get 2 seats together and save a few euro.

No. My son paid the appropriate fee for seats with minors in his original booking. I expect Ryanair to then be able to provide the service that they have required the passenger to pay a premium for, regardless of when they check in. If Ryanair's computer systems can't provide what they said they were providing, then yes, because of the very specific requirements of the airline regulatory bodies, someone is going to have to be inconvenienced.



That however is not the fault of the passenger, it is the fault of the booking/check in system that for revenue based reasons cannot provide what the systems says it is supposed to.



It doesn't matter if the check in was done at 60 days or 2 hours and 2 minutes, a parent travelling with 2 minors who has paid the "parent" fee to get allocated seats as a group together should get exactly that. If that means that the booking systems have to be changed to ensure that seats are allocated at booking time, and the booking is refused if it can't be done, then that is the change that should be made.

billy few mates

"What I'd like to see happen is that the boarding card should have to carry a carefully worded caution in the situation of a minor being separated, that would alert the parent to the situation, and "suggest" that the parent seek the (legal) assistance of the cabin crew in getting the minor moved to a suitable seat..."

Ok, and what if that person you want moved has paid the premium to choose that particular seat, do you feel Ryanair should reimburse him that fee or are you prepared to do it...?

PlaneSpeeking

fritzelly wrote: »

So you want Ryanair to inconvenience everyone else that booked in early/paid for a seat to accommodate you because you left it til the last minute to decide to check in hoping you would get 2 seats together and save a few euro.

Exactly what is thought but not said.

I was asked not long back to move (from 32D that I had paid for) to "somewhere up front" (turned out it was 12b - middle row) so someone's child could sit with them.

The "child" had stubble and was a good foot taller than me.

If you want something PAY FOR IT. If you don't want to pay for it DON'T WHINE ABOUT IT!!!

PlaneSpeeking

Irish Steve wrote: »

No. My son paid the appropriate fee for seats with minors in his original booking. I expect Ryanair to then be able to provide the service that they have required the passenger to pay a premium for, regardless of when they check in. If Ryanair's computer systems can't provide what they said they were providing, then yes, because of the very specific requirements of the airline regulatory bodies, someone is going to have to be inconvenienced.



That however is not the fault of the passenger, it is the fault of the booking/check in system that for revenue based reasons cannot provide what the systems says it is supposed to.


It doesn't matter if the check in was done at 60 days or 2 hours and 2 minutes, a parent travelling with 2 minors who has paid the "parent" fee to get allocated seats as a group together should get exactly that. If that means that the booking systems have to be changed to ensure that seats are allocated at booking time, and the booking is refused if it can't be done, then that is the change that should be made.

That all assumes that parents outrank the rest of us passengers ?

Hint - you don't.

PlaneSpeeking

Irish Steve wrote: »

Indeed, and it was my understanding that their "parent" charge was meant to facilitate exactly that situation, but we found out last week that the system doesn't work like that.


I guess that my main concern is that I do understand the implications of the situation, but there are many parents that would not be aware of what can happen if things go wrong, and in the middle of an in flight emergency is not the time for them to suddenly discover that they can't deal with the situation. One parent, with a mask on, could cope with assisting minors in the part of the row they are in, and also provide some assistance to the part row in front and behind them, which is acceptable. The problem arises when they have to try and provide assistance across the aisle, B to D or E to C might be possible, but anything else is not, and as I mentioned, depending on a whole range of possible variables, you may have 20 seconds to realise what's happening, and get the mask on and working.



What I'd like to see happen is that the boarding card should have to carry a carefully worded caution in the situation of a minor being separated, that would alert the parent to the situation, and "suggest" that the parent seek the (legal) assistance of the cabin crew in getting the minor moved to a suitable seat. I'd like to hope that a person in a seat that's needed for a minor would not give the cabin crew or the parent a hard time if asked to move to a different seat. Having said that, I'm also aware that some people can be very obstructive about their perceived "rights", which is why I think a more formal approach is needed, so that the cabin crew have something to base their requirement on. The ultimate sanction if a passenger is not accepting the valid instructions of the crew is to deny boarding, hopefully it wouldn't come to that.

SERIOUSLY ???? So you think the situation should be ?

Passenger pays anything up to 11 euro extra for seat choice
Parent pays nothing but expects to sit with kid
Parent kicks up a fuss on board plane (annoying, inconveniencing and potentially delaying 200 people)
Cabin crew attempt to go for the "anything for a quiet life" option
Person who paid extra (RIGHTLY) refuses to move
Person in right is offloaded and entitled parent gets what they want for free ?

I give up.

theyoungchap

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

That all assumes that parents outrank the rest of us passengers ?

Hint - you don't.

In their own eyes, parents and their children and their entitlements outrank everybody else in this life - single people, airlines, people without children, etc.

If you want a seat with your child, go book it when you book the flight, don't b1tch and moan about it when you board the plane or come to check in.

I want the cheapest fare and don't care to book a seat, I can sit apart from my wife for an hour - I do it every working day.

Get over it.

munchkin_utd

I’m confused
The argument from Irish Steve seems to be that someone who paid for seats well in advance was allocated seats that were not together.

When I last booked with kids well in advance I had to buy seats when booking and I had the ability to choose my own specific seats. I can’t remember if there was seats preallocated before the manual selection stage but I definitely was able to choose to have us seated 3+1 across an aisle, and I was happy to go with a plan b or c but at least with the seat map in front of me I was in control Andrea not the crazy Ryanair computer

If the person booking the seats somehow decided to let Ryanair choose seats (which with small kids could be a logistical disaster if it goes wrong) rather than spend 30 seconds and manually choose seats and if necessary tailor it to the least worst arrangement considering what seats are left, I can’t see how you can blame Ryanair.

As for Ryanair being expected to block rows of seats for families which may check in late until an hour before take off, that’s being unreasonable.