So who's going to see the Pope?

Billy86

kenmc wrote: »

How many of that 13m are priests though? That narrows the ratio drastically

Well apparently there are 982 parishes in Pennsylvania, does anyone have a rough estimate of how many priests you might find per parish in a state with two big cities (Pittsburh + Philadelphia) and otherwise about 3mn people in a landmass about 50% bigger than Ireland?

The link below also seems to say around 1,150 priests (Priests Active Within Their Diocese + Priests Active Outside Their Diocese) but surely, surely it would have to be more than that with 300 of them abusing children? Either way it appears to be an incredibly high percentage of them who were at it.

https://www.pacatholic.org/resources/pa-catholic-statistics/

4068ac1elhodqr

Strazdas wrote: »

300 abusers is disgraceful but just to keep things in perspective, the population of Pennsylvania is 13 million, that is bigger than countries like Belgium and Sweden and nearly three times the population of Ireland.

Nope, Penns only has a catholic population of only 3.2m, which is about the same as Ireland's catholics on average over the previous decades.

Ire has a much, much higher percentage of catholics, with control of schools and suchlike. It's dropping right now, but 2016:78%, 2011:84% and in pre-2000 92+%.

The 300 satanic priests in Penns only preyed upon, and had primary access to that '3.2m' section of their community. So highly comparable to Ireland indeed. There is porbably a lot yet to come out of the woodwork in Ireland of as yet as the Archbishop himself already alluded to. 300 in Ireland over the last 50yrs mightn't be that far off perhaps.

hatrickpatrick

EdgeCase wrote: »

I get the impression there simply aren't any troops to muster. I think we are really seeing the organisation as an outward shell of its former self.
The decline has also been rapid enough that I think many both inside and outside the church are often a bit surprised. It's just a huge shift in Irish sociology.

We've gone from a somewhat extreme version of being devout Catholics to a far more normal relationship with religion that is looking much more like the rest of Northern Europe. It's just the change happened more rapidly, compressed over a few decades.

I severed my ties with the Catholic Church when the Tuam scandal came to light, having had a strained relationship with it for years previous to this, and having grown up believing it to be a wonderful thing. I wonder how many others decided to quit in a very rapid decision / thought process like this. It was an immediate, visceral "that's it, I'm f*cking done" in my case. Haven't set foot in a Catholic Church since and my relationship with God is an entirely private one.

To be honest, my own estrangement from the church began when I hit puberty. I'd be very surprised if that didn't happen to others. As soon as sexuality becomes a part of your life, the right wing sh!t pervading the church sets you on a direct collision course with it - trying as a teenager to navigate the whole "even thinking about a woman sexually is a sin, and touching your privates in private is basically committing a mini-holocaust of tiny half-people" crap, while unavoidably pitching random tents at the mere sight of a girl your age wearing a belly top, is absolutely hellish if you're somebody who takes religion seriously at that age, and at least in my case, over time the utter absurdity of the church's undisguised hatred for such a basic aspect of being a living creature is impossible to ignore. This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about when I say that the Catholic church's teachings on these things are themselves a form of psychological child abuse. I can only imagine how much worse and more ridiculous it is if you're gay.

It's truly astounding that some of the church's teachings on these issues which are based in utterly misinterpreted bible passages haven't been questioned within the organisation itself. The biblical basis for contraception being a sin is in a passage in which a guy gets smited for pulling out, but he's actually being smited for refusing to get a woman pregnant on God's orders. The passage where all sexual thoughts are automatically sinful most likely refers to a "wife" rather than a "woman", so at most it's saying "don't fantasise about someone else's partner", but that passage forms the entire basis for opposition to mastrubation and the idea that so much as entertaining a sexual thought about someone you're not currently married to is a mortal sin.

It's absolutely absurd. The church saw fit to jettison huge swathes of biblical rules over the years as they became incompatible with where society was going - why it refuses to budge on sexual conservatism is utterly beyond me. But between that issue and the scandals issue, which in my view are inextricably linked to eachother, I expect the church to continue haemorrhaging members.

hatrickpatrick

EdgeCase wrote: »

I know talking to one or two of my older relatives; th sense you get is they feel like they were conned.

As someone raised Catholic in the 1990s I agree with this. And it's not just in relation to the church actually but to Ireland itself in many ways - in the years of the original Celtic tiger it was all about how we were growing up in the best country in Europe in so many ways. When the scandals came to light it was like "hang on, women were locked up against their will right up until 1996 for being sexual people? Why the f*ck did no one ever tell us this?! Best country in Europe my hole."

It's pretty painful to discover that the foundation of one's national identity is a massive filthy lie. And I reckon that's why among young people, it goes beyond the disappointment you refer to in older generations and crosses over into undisguised rage and fury.

Strazdas

Billy86 wrote: »

Well apparently there are 982 parishes in Pennsylvania, does anyone have a rough estimate of how many priests you might find per parish in a state with two big cities (Pittsburh + Philadelphia) and otherwise about 3mn people in a landmass about 50% bigger than Ireland?

The link below also seems to say around 1,150 priests (Priests Active Within Their Diocese + Priests Active Outside Their Diocese) but surely, surely it would have to be more than that with 300 of them abusing children? Either way it appears to be an incredibly high percentage of them who were at it.

https://www.pacatholic.org/resources/pa-catholic-statistics/

The abuse statistics go right back to 1947 so presumably the number of priests would be much higher. Didn't Ireland have 6000 priests at one point in the mid 1950s? That would easily equate to tens of thousands of priests in a sixty year period and I imagine the same for Penn.

spurious

The weather will have put many off on the day, but given the age of most of the cohort, I'd say the word got out successfully about the amount of walking involved. The lack of support within the park for the less mobile was also a factor, though I think a 500,000 attendance was a bit aspirational.

DChancer

It is telling that they announced that the next World Meeting of Families is going to be held in ....
....
...
ROME!

Obviously they cannot risk taking it on the road again after what has been a huge PR disaster for them.

Discodog

I very much doubt if any Pope will visit Ireland again

CruelCoin

Strazdas wrote: »

300 abusers is disgraceful but just to keep things in perspective, the population of Pennsylvania is 13 million, that is bigger than countries like Belgium and Sweden and nearly three times the population of Ireland.

Yeah, but it's not 300 abusers out of 13 million is it?

It's 300 out of whatever the church workforce is.

That ratio puts it clearly into "rapists anonymous" territory.

ELM327

mikemac2 wrote: »

How do you spot someone with no interest in religion?




They love to tell everyone

How do you spot someone indirectly supporting something?
They make light of those who actively dislike it with valid reasons.

CruelCoin

Irish Kings wrote: »

Jaysus you didn't say that to your poor ma did you ??

The poor woman is only into it for the spirituality and faith not the politics.

In for a penny, in for a pound.

She should know what her donation money goes towards.

circadian

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It's absolutely absurd. The church saw fit to jettison huge swathes of biblical rules over the years as they became incompatible with where society was going - why it refuses to budge on sexual conservatism is utterly beyond me. But between that issue and the scandals issue, which in my view are inextricably linked to eachother, I expect the church to continue haemorrhaging members.

It refuses to budge on sexual conservatism because it's run by a bunch of celibate men with repressed sexual feelings. If they can be celibate then surely you, the congregation can follow these simple rules.

The hypocrisy of it all is astonishing, not only does this train of thought have a negative effect on teenagers as you have rightly pointed out, it also has a negative effect of the clergy which then creates much, much bigger problems in the form of abuse.

The church is going to eat itself alive from the inside out eventually, most of its practices are detrimental to the clergy.

murpho999

spurious wrote: »

The weather will have put many off on the day, but given the age of most of the cohort, I'd say the word got out successfully about the amount of walking involved. The lack of support within the park for the less mobile was also a factor, though I think a 500,000 attendance was a bit aspirational.

Over a million managed it in 1979 and public transport wasn't as good then, Darts didn't exist then.

The interest is just not there as Ireland is not as religious as it was despite what RTE would have you believe with their OTT coverage.

CruelCoin

Discodog wrote: »

I very much doubt if any Pope will visit Ireland again

Attendance of 130k from a population of 4.8m?
Really poor return on investment.

Once all the 70+ brigade die off in the next few decades the number of people who claim to be Catholics drops to 60%, let alone the drift that will happen in the rest of us.

Next time a pope comes around he won't fill landsdown, let alone Phoenix.

CruelCoin

murpho999 wrote: »

The interest is just not there as Ireland is not as religious as it was despite what RTE would have you believe with their OTT coverage.

Excuse me, I quite like the bell ringing enthusiasts segment.

Wanderer78

CruelCoin wrote:

Attendance of 130k from a population of 4.8m? Really poor return on investment.

Faith is not a financial investment, so monitising it is pointless

CruelCoin wrote:

Once all the 70+ brigade die off in the next few decades the number of people who claim to be Catholics drops to 60%, let alone the drift that will happen in the rest of us.

Oh never underestimate the power of faith and ultimately hope, catholicism isn't dead yet

Giraffe Box

CruelCoin wrote: »

Attendance of 130k from a population of 4.8m?
Really poor return on investment.

Once all the 70+ brigade die off in the next few decades the number of people who claim to be Catholics drops to 60%, let alone the drift that will happen in the rest of us.

Next time a pope comes around he won't fill landsdown, let alone Phoenix.

Lansdowne Road???
In 40 years time the next pope will have trouble filling The Sugar Club!

ELM327

Giraffe Box wrote: »

Lansdowne Road???
In 40 years time the next pope will have trouble filling The Sugar Club!

If you apply the decline as linear (a false supposition as we all know the decline was front loaded in the last 10 years).
You get the annual decline as ((1million-120000)/39), or approximately 22,500 per year, or 2.25% per annum.
In 40 years I would reckon that we would be at or approaching 0. (in ireland)

circadian

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Faith is not a financial investment, so monitising it is pointless



Oh never underestimate the power of faith and ultimately hope, catholicism isn't dead yet

How much did the event cost? That's a financial investment.

murpho999

Giraffe Box wrote: »

Lansdowne Road???
In 40 years time the next pope will have trouble filling The Sugar Club!

He might attract a bigger crowd if he brings his wife or husband and their kids.

ELM327

circadian wrote: »

How much did the event cost? That's a financial investment.

€266.67 for every attendee.

CruelCoin

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Faith is not a financial investment, so monitising it is pointless



Oh never underestimate the power of faith and ultimately hope, catholicism isn't dead yet

No, it's not dead yet, it likely will be around for hundreds of years.

But there are places where the pope would get far greater attendance and more bang for buck, given he's a busy guy and can't spend his life on the road.

As head pointy hat guy, he has a duty to spread the word to as many as he can. Poland, Brazil, Italy, sure, but Ireland? No. No longer worth his time.

CruelCoin

ELM327 wrote: »

€266.67 for every attendee.

Jesus ****ing Christ.

seamus

murpho999 wrote: »

Over a million managed it in 1979 and public transport wasn't as good then, Darts didn't exist then.

The interest is just not there as Ireland is not as religious as it was despite what RTE would have you believe with their OTT coverage.

In 1979 there was a lot of walking to be done, but the difference is that the grey vote back then who stayed at home made no real difference to the overall number. All ages attended, from 2 to 82. Matt Cooper did a mini documentary on it and lots of people recall feeling like, "God himself was coming to visit Ireland".

So it didn't really matter back then that older people couldn't make the walk, because the youth were more than happy to go. The only people who stayed at home deliberately were "edgy lefties rebelling against their parents".

But what this 130,000 figure has proven is just how bad a state the church is in. Older people didn't make the trip because they couldn't. And very few others went. In 20 years time the older faithful will be gone, and there's nobody left to take their place. 130,000 people, and maybe some of their children, will carry the can.

There is a huge statement in the fact that there were empty seats in Croke Park for an audience with the Pope, but there wasn't and won't be empty seats for the GAA finals.

I said earlier upthread that I'm happy this €32m was spent, because it has proven exactly how massive a gulf there is between what the government thinks about Irish peoples' faith, and reality. And hopefully politicians will take heed in future and give far less speaking time to church leaders who clearly no longer speak for very many people.

In hindsight, RTÉ basically embarrassed itself with the amount of wall-to-wall coverage that relatively few people watched. But again, it illustrates the gulf between what RTÉ heads think people want and what people actually want. The top brass in RTÉ have paid fealty to the church via Opus Dei for decades, and now they're visibly out of step with society.

be fair

if your act hadnt changed its material in 1700 years you'd think 130k was a pretty decent crowd

CruelCoin

seamus wrote: »

In hindsight, RTÉ basically embarrassed itself with the amount of wall-to-wall coverage that relatively few people watched. But again, it illustrates the gulf between what RTÉ heads think people want and what people actually want. The top brass in RTÉ have paid fealty to the church via Opus Dei for decades, and now they're visibly out of step with society.

That's been fairly obvious for a long time now.

If you cannot keep a financially viable media enterprise without handouts, then you are not offering what the market wants.

Wanderer78

circadian wrote:

How much did the event cost? That's a financial investment.

Cost, investment! This isn't a monetary game!

CruelCoin wrote:

No, it's not dead yet, it likely will be around for hundreds of years.

Looking at historically, faith is here to stay, but our relationship with it is changing, and dramatically in ways

seamus

seamus wrote: »

I said earlier upthread that I'm happy this €32m was spent, because it has proven exactly how massive a gulf there is between what the government thinks about Irish peoples' faith, and reality. And hopefully politicians will take heed in future and give far less speaking time to church leaders who clearly no longer speak for very many people.

In hindsight, RTÉ basically embarrassed itself with the amount of wall-to-wall coverage that relatively few people watched. But again, it illustrates the gulf between what RTÉ heads think people want and what people actually want. The top brass in RTÉ have paid fealty to the church via Opus Dei for decades, and now they're visibly out of step with society.

100% this. The establishment in this country needs to stop giving such a huge platform to this organisation.

Sleeper12

spurious wrote: »

The weather will have put many off on the day, but given the age of most of the cohort, I'd say the word got out successfully about the amount of walking involved. The lack of support within the park for the less mobile was also a factor, though I think a 500,000 attendance was a bit aspirational.

I said this earlier on a different thread but here goes. Shirley Bassy played in a field about 10 years ago in the pouring rain. Men & women of all ages still went. They put on their wellies & slummed it for the day. My own mother was in her early 70s at the time. If the Stones played Slane yesterday I would have been part of a 80,000 sell out gig covered in muck.


There were tons of tickets. Many people applied for tickets several times to ensure that they got at least some tickets. Many, many people had 50 or more spare tickets because of this. These tickets flooded facebook & other social media. DoneDeal, Adverts & just about every local come & take my away for free group/ page. Some were even offered here on Boards. All of these were offered for free. Right up to Saturday night I saw lots of free tickets.


Anyone that really wanted to go did go. Thats a simple fact. The turnout in Dublin city was a fifth of the expected crowd. No tickets needed at all & a beautiful sunny day. 40 years ago people would have crawled over dead bodies to see the pope. This time they said, "na, I'm not bothered"

Sleeper12

Sleeper12 wrote: »

40 years ago people would have crawled over dead bodies to see the pope.

an apt phrasing tbh

Sycamore Tree

I find it very very odd that the pope wasn't aware of Magdelene laundries or Industrial schools. Who is advising him?

This papal visit was a disaster for Rome. I hope more cultural Catholics find the courage to tick the correct box on the census form so we can move on as a country.

lawred2

seamus wrote: »

In 1979 there was a lot of walking to be done, but the difference is that the grey vote back then who stayed at home made no real difference to the overall number. All ages attended, from 2 to 82. Matt Cooper did a mini documentary on it and lots of people recall feeling like, "God himself was coming to visit Ireland".

So it didn't really matter back then that older people couldn't make the walk, because the youth were more than happy to go. The only people who stayed at home deliberately were "edgy lefties rebelling against their parents".

But what this 130,000 figure has proven is just how bad a state the church is in. Older people didn't make the trip because they couldn't. And very few others went. In 20 years time the older faithful will be gone, and there's nobody left to take their place. 130,000 people, and maybe some of their children, will carry the can.

There is a huge statement in the fact that there were empty seats in Croke Park for an audience with the Pope, but there wasn't and won't be empty seats for the GAA finals.

I said earlier upthread that I'm happy this €32m was spent, because it has proven exactly how massive a gulf there is between what the government thinks about Irish peoples' faith, and reality. And hopefully politicians will take heed in future and give far less speaking time to church leaders who clearly no longer speak for very many people.

In hindsight, RTÉ basically embarrassed itself with the amount of wall-to-wall coverage that relatively few people watched. But again, it illustrates the gulf between what RTÉ heads think people want and what people actually want. The top brass in RTÉ have paid fealty to the church via Opus Dei for decades, and now they're visibly out of step with society.

I hope that it also gives the government the kick it needs to accelerate the divestment of primary schools from the church

lawred2

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

I find it very very odd that the pope wasn't aware of Magdelene laundries or Industrial schools. Who is advising him?

This papal visit was a disaster for Rome. I hope more cultural Catholics find the courage to tick the correct box on the census form so we can move on as a country.

won't happen - still too many cowards

FrancieBrady

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Cost, investment! This isn't a monetary game!

Of course it was a monetary game, they brought in the great and the good of the business world to try and recoup the investment.

The came up with a great wheeze to get around the rule that you 'cannot charge money for seeing the pope' in Croke park. They initially said that only those buying the 3 day ticket to the WMOF would get tickets to Croke Park. This enabled them to monetise seeing the pope. When the uptake wasn't could enough on that they started to panic and give tickets away for free.

Wanderer78

Sycamore Tree wrote:

This papal visit was a disaster for Rome. I hope more cultural Catholics find the courage to tick the correct box on the census form so we can move on as a country.

I wouldn't get overly excited, we ve just replaced this oppressor with others, we re a Fecken odd bunch

lawred2

Wanderer78 wrote: »

I wouldn't get overly excited, we ve just replaced this oppressor with others, we re a Fecken odd bunch

whom?

Avatar MIA

Discodog wrote: »

I very much doubt if any Pope will visit Ireland again

"Anything to be said for another mass?"

We now know the answer is no.

Wanderer78

lawred2 wrote:

whom?

Does it always need to be a whom? We re well capable of oppressing ourselves with our unusual ideals and ideas

FrancieBrady

Wanderer78 wrote: »

I wouldn't get overly excited, we ve just replaced this oppressor with others, we re a Fecken odd bunch

Who is 'oppressing you'?

Doctor Jimbob

seamus wrote: »

In 1979 there was a lot of walking to be done, but the difference is that the grey vote back then who stayed at home made no real difference to the overall number. All ages attended, from 2 to 82. Matt Cooper did a mini documentary on it and lots of people recall feeling like, "God himself was coming to visit Ireland".

So it didn't really matter back then that older people couldn't make the walk, because the youth were more than happy to go. The only people who stayed at home deliberately were "edgy lefties rebelling against their parents".

But what this 130,000 figure has proven is just how bad a state the church is in. Older people didn't make the trip because they couldn't. And very few others went. In 20 years time the older faithful will be gone, and there's nobody left to take their place. 130,000 people, and maybe some of their children, will carry the can.

There is a huge statement in the fact that there were empty seats in Croke Park for an audience with the Pope, but there wasn't and won't be empty seats for the GAA finals.

I said earlier upthread that I'm happy this €32m was spent, because it has proven exactly how massive a gulf there is between what the government thinks about Irish peoples' faith, and reality. And hopefully politicians will take heed in future and give far less speaking time to church leaders who clearly no longer speak for very many people.

In hindsight, RTÉ basically embarrassed itself with the amount of wall-to-wall coverage that relatively few people watched. But again, it illustrates the gulf between what RTÉ heads think people want and what people actually want. The top brass in RTÉ have paid fealty to the church via Opus Dei for decades, and now they're visibly out of step with society.

Not just because they couldn't either. I was speaking to my dad on the phone yesterday, he's in his 70s and would be fairly religious - mass every Sunday and all. Said he had absolutely no interest in going, that he likes the local priest but has no respect at all for the church hierarchy. I'd imagine there are plenty of his generation with a similar mindset.

Sleeper12

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

I find it very very odd that the pope wasn't aware of Magdelene laundries or Industrial schools. Who is advising him?

This papal visit was a disaster for Rome. I hope more cultural Catholics find the courage to tick the correct box on the census form so we can move on as a country.

This is another one of his many lies imo. The church is/has been sued over this. The victims were hand picked so his advisers knew how each person was effected. His advisers would have given him a quick brief on each one. Philomena Lee met the Pope a few years ago. He was aware of mother & baby homes then.


I 100 percent agree about the census. The government needs to start an education program explaining how the census effects our lives in years to come

lawred2

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Does it always need to be a whom? We re well capable of oppressing ourselves with our unusual ideals and ideas

:rolleyes:

lawred2

Sleeper12 wrote: »

This is another one of his many lies imo. The church is/has been sued over this. The victims were hand picked so his advisers knew how each person was effected. His advisers would have given him a quick brief on each one. Philomena Lee met the Pope a few years ago. He was aware of mother & baby homes then.


I 100 percent agree about the census. The government needs to start an education program explaining how the census effects our lives in years to come

or you know - the citizen could take some responsibility and educate themselves

ohnonotgmail

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

I find it very very odd that the pope wasn't aware of Magdelene laundries or Industrial schools. Who is advising him?

Here is a crazy thought. Perhaps he was lying when he said that?

FrancieBrady

Sleeper12 wrote: »

This is another one of his many lies imo. The church is/has been sued over this. The victims were hand picked so his advisers knew how each person was effected. His advisers would have given him a quick brief on each one. Philomena Lee met the Pope a few years ago. He was aware of mother & baby homes then.


I 100 percent agree about the census. The government needs to start an education program explaining how the census effects our lives in years to come

They need to take the question of the census altogether. What business is it of a supposedly secular state what religion you or I profess.

In terms of 'future planning' which is the purpose of the census, what religion you are should be way down the list of considerations in catering for your needs.
If you need a church, let religions provide them based on need.

ELM327

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Who is 'oppressing you'?

Oh god, this isnt going to be about neoliberowankism is it?




By way of introduction, that poster is widely known and derided for posting tinfoil hat nonsense in the politics forum. In short he is both a capitalism and free market denier.

RoryMac

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I said this earlier on a different thread but here goes. Shirley Bassy played in a field about 10 years ago in the pouring rain. Men & women of all ages still went. They put on their wellies & slummed it for the day. My own mother was in her early 70s at the time. If the Stones played Slane yesterday I would have been part of a 80,000 sell out gig covered in muck.


There were tons of tickets. Many people applied for tickets several times to ensure that they got at least some tickets. Many, many people had 50 or more spare tickets because of this. These tickets flooded facebook & other social media. DoneDeal, Adverts & just about every local come & take my away for free group/ page. Some were even offered here on Boards. All of these were offered for free. Right up to Saturday night I saw lots of free tickets.


Anyone that really wanted to go did go. Thats a simple fact. The turnout in Dublin city was a fifth of the expected crowd. No tickets needed at all & a beautiful sunny day. 40 years ago people would have crawled over dead bodies to see the pope. This time they said, "na, I'm not bothered"

According to my In Laws there were hundreds tickets in Phibsboro church left for people to take if they wanted them all through the week. That's a stones throw from Phoenix Park and there was just no interest.

There was absolutely no shortage of tickets just a shortage of people who wanted them

Wanderer78

ELM327 wrote:

By way of introduction, that poster is widely known and derided for posting tinfoil hat nonsense in the politics forum. In short he is both a capitalism and free market denier.

ELM327 wrote:

Oh god, this isnt going to be about neoliberowankism is it?

Plenty of research going on in this now coming from well respected institutions. Thank you, but it goes well beyond those ideologies

kunst nugget

I've already heard and seen a couple of people blaming the low turnout on the tickets that where snapped up by people protesting the visit who had no intention of going. I reckon we're going to see more of that over the next couple of weeks as well. I really wish people hadn't done the ticket thing because then there would have been no excuses they could have used for the poor turnout.

RoryMac

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

I find it very very odd that the pope wasn't aware of Magdelene laundries or Industrial schools. Who is advising him?

This papal visit was a disaster for Rome. I hope more cultural Catholics find the courage to tick the correct box on the census form so we can move on as a country.

It's a lie, he has met with Philomena Lee and the Archbishop has talked about his shock when being told about the Mother & baby homes previously.

Not sure why he is trying to deny knowledge now when it's on record he knew