So who's going to see the Pope?

Avatar MIA

CruelCoin wrote: »

This is after hours.

Harvard style proofs belong in the legal/debating forums thataway--->

That's where you're wrong. Someone serious enough to state a percentage as a fact will always be called on it, no matter the forum. And it's the wrong topic to ask someone to take something on faith

ELM327

Trasna1 wrote: »

As one of the 120000 you branded as scum earlier I can tell you that tickets were not scanned in Phoenix Park. All that was checked was that you had a piece of paper. Security was poor overall, not in any way thorough.

Counting was done via overhead radar gantries on the entrance routes. The total official attendance will be known in time, soon probably

There was obviously a count done as even the national broadcaster (usually a social right wing propaganda machine) did not try to inflate the numbers above 120000-130000.

If you look at the aerial shots during the mass even 130000 seems fanciful.

nice_guy80

Trasna1 wrote: »

Yeah, been like that in most parishes for over 20 years. Not a particularly recent innovation.

It keeps donations anonymous from the person sitting beside you. Envelopes are numbered and accounted for. Parishes can claim a tax deduction for each person's envelope at the end of the year, if the individual agrees.

Didn't know about that last bit

Avatar MIA

Trasna1 wrote: »

Yeah, been like that in most parishes for over 20 years. Not a particularly recent innovation.

It keeps donations anonymous from the person sitting beside you. Envelopes are numbered and accounted for. Parishes can claim a tax deduction for each person's envelope at the end of the year, if the individual agrees.

And it's also a good way of keeping track of who pays.

seamus

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

A less thesis-driven observer might look at numerous other metrics, such as the percentage of the Irish population identifying as Catholic (78 percent in Census 2016, or 3,729,100 people -- more than the entire population of Ireland in 1979)

Isn't that just more proof that the RCC is in a shambles? 3.7m people "identifying" as Catholic, yet just 3.5% of that figure came out for a once-in-a-lifetime event to celebrate with the deified head of their religion?

Gather together the 3 events and that's still only 7% of the reported # of Catholics in Ireland who came to witness the Pope. The planned and available capacity was 17.5% of the country's "Catholics".

And those numbers are assuming everyone only attended on a single a event and that the volume of foreign visitors was very low. Both of which are assumptions that can't be made.

So whatever figures you want to use, it's proof that the church in Ireland is in a terrible state. Less than a tenth of Irish Catholics came to see "God's representative on earth" - the highest and most celebration position in the church - and less than half of the capacity made available, was taken up.

or the percentage of Catholics attending weekly mass (around 35 percent, very high by European standards).

A: I would love to know your source for this figure because it matches up with nothing else.
B: "Very high by European standards" sounds really like someone desperately looking for something positive to say. 35% is about half of the attendance rate at the turn of the millenium.

If you genuinely believe that there are only 130,000 observant Catholics in Ireland to "carry the can" in 20 years' time, or that there will be no Catholics left in Ireland in 20 years, you really need to think again.

https://www.irishcatholic.com/young-irish-mass-attendance-still-remarkably-high-numbers-show/

Crunch the numbers here:
54% of 16-29 year olds claim to be Catholic
10% of these attend Mass weekly.

That's approx. 472,000 young people who claim to be catholic, and 47,200 who attend on a weekly basis.

Less than 50,000 young Irish people attend Mass weekly. If we assume they will remain to do so and all go on to have 3 children, who also attend weekly (lofty assumption), then in 20 years' time when the older generation are dead, you'll have 100,000 weekly attendees between the ages of 16 and 49 at Mass.

Sure, you might have the same figure again in the 49+ age bracket. But this cannot be spun as anything but a disastrous and immense decline for the RCC in Ireland.

Anyone claiming otherwise is the embodiment of comical Ali saying "Everything is fine" while tanks roll through the streets.

And tbh, I'm perfectly happy for the church to stick its fingers in its ears about this.

Cabaal

Says it all https://www.broadsheet.ie/2018/08/27/the-great-multitude/

Papal Mass, Phoenix Park, 1979


Papal Mass, Phoenix Park, yesterday


Evidence nobody is really that bothered with the church and its events anymore,

However many will no doubt continue to be bouncy castle Catholics, going to mass a few times a year coming up to confirmation and communion....important for some people to have that money and bouncy castle for their kids.
:rolleyes:

The Golden Miller

I've no problem with people condemning the church during the popes visit, it's only right. But where was this universal outrage when the queen came to visit, an institution that caused alot more pain to alot more people over here? But that's "progress", and any condemnation was swept under the carpet by the media. Surely the pope's visit will bring in all this "tourist money" too, or does that myth only exist when we bend over to by Britain's lapdogs for international attention, to show how "matured as a nation" we are?

optogirl

The Golden Miller wrote: »

I've no problem with people condemning the church during the popes visit, it's only right. But where was this universal outrage when the queen came to visit, an institution that caused alot more pain to alot more people over here? But that's "progress", and any condemnation was swept under the carpet by the media. Surely the pope's visit will bring in all this "tourist money" too, or does that myth only exist when we bend over to by Britain's lapdogs for international attention, to show how "matured as a nation" we are?

They are not comparable. Practically every street in the country is named after someone who stood up to the crown. We are told all about what the British did to us through education, theatre, songs, poetry, movies, documentary. The time before the Republic is barely in living memory.

Trasna1

ELM327 wrote: »

There was obviously a count done as even the national broadcaster (usually a social right wing propaganda machine) did not try to inflate the numbers above 120000-130000.

If you look at the aerial shots during the mass even 130000 seems fanciful.

I never said there wasn't a count done, only that tickets weren't checked. They weren't, I was one of the scum there, as you said.

A count was done - using overhead radar like you'd see at a marathon, or other mass non-ticket events

Trasna1

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Didn't know about that last bit

True for any charitable donation. I'm surprised more sports clubs and the like don't use it (although it may only be available to religious and those with a charity number)

ELM327

Trasna1 wrote: »

I never said there wasn't a count done, only that tickets weren't checked. They weren't, I was one of the scum there, as you said.

A count was done - using overhead radar like you'd see at a marathon, or other mass non-ticket events

It's immaterial how the count was done. There was a count done by emergency services, and that count is accurate.


I've already received moderator comment for, and corrected, the scum comment. I don't see the need for you to continue to refer to it, while it was not even on this thread. It's getting tedious now.
IN the interest of bringing your tedious tangent to an end, here are the related comments:

ELM327 wrote: »

Apologies.I'm just rather annoyed at those who can support such an organisation given that the head of it can continue to lie, from the lies about the mother and baby homes, to the fact a known paedophile cover up priest was in the cavalcade directly behind the pope yesterday.


What I was trying to say was that the RCC organisation is corrupt and they derive validation from the numbers who tick boxes or attend events.

Perhaps I could/should have worded my initial post a little clearer. Mea Culpa.

ELM327 wrote: »

I will not respect nonsense and bunkum tbh, but that doesn't mean it is acceptable to insult people because of it. Hence why I have apologised for the comment.


There's a big difference between respecting someone's beliefs and respecting their right to hold those beliefs.


I will do the latter begrudgingly but not the former.

gmisk

Trasna1 wrote: »

I never said there wasn't a count done, only that tickets weren't checked. They weren't, I was one of the scum there, as you said.

A count was done - using overhead radar like you'd see at a marathon, or other mass non-ticket events

I dont think there is any need to keep bringing up the scum comment, the poster already apologised and were warned by a mod.


My sister went with her husband and 4 kids and they had a terrific time, they said the atmosphere was lovely as well, they found it a bit of a trek but then again they were bused in from fairyhouse (as they live in northern ireland was handiest for them).
My sister and myself would disagree on a number of things (e.g. the repeal of the 8th) but we are very close and respect each others beliefs.

I dont honestly see the big fight over numbers etc as a big deal, people went they got something out of it grand, it will likely be the last papal visit for a long long time, life goes on.

The Golden Miller

optogirl wrote: »

They are not comparable. Practically every street in the country is named after someone who stood up to the crown. We are told all about what the British did to us through education, theatre, songs, poetry, movies, documentary. The time before the Republic is barely in living memory.

They caused alot of pain to alot of Irish people right up until 1998 and after. Any dissent was whitewashed and swept under the carpet when she came over, our servile slavering was hailed as "maturity" and "progress". You're right about one thing, they are not comparable, the British caused alot more death and suffering.

The two of them should fcuk off. But the little hypocritical Irish sheep just follow whatever the "in thing" is, the popular opinion of the day, with their faux condemnation

Cabaal

Trasna1 wrote: »

I never said there wasn't a count done, only that tickets weren't checked. They weren't, I was one of the scum there, as you said.

A count was done - using overhead radar like you'd see at a marathon, or other mass non-ticket events

Priest involved in organisation of the event put the figure at 200k on radio this morning,
Be 200 or 130k its a extremely low turnout.

lawred2

seamus wrote: »

Isn't that just more proof that the RCC is in a shambles? 3.7m people "identifying" as Catholic, yet just 3.5% of that figure came out for a once-in-a-lifetime event to celebrate with the deified head of their religion?

Gather together the 3 events and that's still only 7% of the reported # of Catholics in Ireland who came to witness the Pope. The planned and available capacity was 17.5% of the country's "Catholics".

And those numbers are assuming everyone only attended on a single a event and that the volume of foreign visitors was very low. Both of which are assumptions that can't be made.

So whatever figures you want to use, it's proof that the church in Ireland is in a terrible state. Less than a tenth of Irish Catholics came to see "God's representative on earth" - the highest and most celebration position in the church - and less than half of the capacity made available, was taken up.

A: I would love to know your source for this figure because it matches up with nothing else.
B: "Very high by European standards" sounds really like someone desperately looking for something positive to say. 35% is about half of the attendance rate at the turn of the millenium.


https://www.irishcatholic.com/young-irish-mass-attendance-still-remarkably-high-numbers-show/

Crunch the numbers here:
54% of 16-29 year olds claim to be Catholic
10% of these attend Mass weekly.

That's approx. 472,000 young people who claim to be catholic, and 47,200 who attend on a weekly basis.

Less than 50,000 young Irish people attend Mass weekly. If we assume they will remain to do so and all go on to have 3 children, who also attend weekly (lofty assumption), then in 20 years' time when the older generation are dead, you'll have 100,000 weekly attendees between the ages of 16 and 49 at Mass.

Sure, you might have the same figure again in the 49+ age bracket. But this cannot be spun as anything but a disastrous and immense decline for the RCC in Ireland.

Anyone claiming otherwise is the embodiment of comical Ali saying "Everything is fine" while tanks roll through the streets.

And tbh, I'm perfectly happy for the church to stick its fingers in its ears about this.

my issue is with the 35% figure and the way that poster used it.

The claim is that 35% of the laughable 78% (over 3 million people) attend mass on a weekly basis i.e. 35% of Catholics. Just a shade over 1m or so. Seems a reasonable conclusion on the surface.

But it's two different sources with more than likely two different methodologies and sets of definitions.

When the ESS said 35% of Catholics attend a weekly service? 35% of what headline figure? It's surely can't be 35% of the Irish census figure for Catholics. Why would they use that figure? Because even the most rudimentary scientific analysis would discount the results compiled from such a flawed source as the answers to the religion question in the Irish census.

So what is the ESS's figure for total Catholics in Ireland and how was that figure reached?

And if they have actually chosen to use that census figure - then I say bollocks to that.

Avatar MIA

lawred2 wrote: »

And if they have actually chosen to use that census figure - then I say bollocks to that.

No, it's way more impressive than that. The Irish Times simply used the word adults, not just Catholics.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

seamus wrote: »

Isn't that just more proof that the RCC is in a shambles? 3.7m people "identifying" as Catholic, yet just 3.5% of that figure came out for a once-in-a-lifetime event to celebrate with the deified head of their religion?

I don't think it's necessarily "proof" of anything. As I noted above, for many people in Ireland, the pope's visit was not necessarily a "once in a lifetime" event. Lots of people over 45 would remember seeing the pope in 1979, and so they've already had their "once in a lifetime" experience.

A: I would love to know your source for this figure because it matches up with nothing else.

Source provided above.

B: "Very high by European standards" sounds really like someone desperately looking for something positive to say. 35% is about half of the attendance rate at the turn of the millenium.

Yes, and it's about five times the current attendance rate in France. Only Poland and Portugal have higher rates of church attendance than Ireland -- so the figures are indeed very high by European standards.

Crunch the numbers here:
54% of 16-29 year olds claim to be Catholic
10% of these attend Mass weekly.

The 10 percent figure comes from the Benedict XVI Centre for Religion and Society at St Mary’s University in the UK. The very same article you linked to states another figure: "Irish young adults remain among the most religious young adults in Europe, with around 24% of young people attending Mass weekly, according to the latest figures from the European Social Survey (ESS)."

Why no mention of the 24 percent figure from the ESS? Ooops, a quarter of young people going to mass weekly doesn't support your thesis. So you proceed by ignoring that higher figure and repeatedly citing a lower figure from another source. Blatant cherrypicking -- and you expect people to take you seriously?

Sure, you might have the same figure again in the 49+ age bracket. But this cannot be spun as anything but a disastrous and immense decline for the RCC in Ireland.

The documented decline of Catholic influence in Ireland is clearly part of a decline of organized religion across the Western world. It is by no means specific to the Catholic Church in Ireland, as the decline of the Presbyterian church in Ireland (membership down 40 percent since 1975) illustrates.

Chips Lovell

The Golden Miller wrote: »

They caused alot of pain to alot of Irish people right up until 1998 and after. Any dissent was whitewashed and swept under the carpet when she came over, our servile slavering was hailed as "maturity" and "progress". You're right about one thing, they are not comparable, the British caused alot more death and suffering.

The two of them should fcuk off. But the little hypocritical Irish sheep just follow whatever the "in thing" is, the popular opinion of the day, with their faux condemnation

I didn't think there would be a way of shoehorning "The Brits" into this one, but you managed it nonetheless. Fair play!

seamus

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

Why no mention of the 24 percent figure from the ESS? Ooops, a quarter of young people going to mass weekly doesn't support your thesis. So you proceed by ignoring that higher figure and repeatedly citing a lower figure from another source. Blatant cherrypicking -- and you expect people to take you seriously?

I think you'll find it's you who's cherrypicking.

The reason I picked the 54/10 figures are because they're the only ones with any kind of relatable data. The 24% figure simply mentions "young people", whereas the second set of data at least gives a reference range of ages.

Maybe the article is badly-worded, but it's all discussing the one ESS study, not two separate one - it claims the study says 24%, but a Church researcher who has looked at the data says it's 10%.

Why would I crunch numbers based on a unrelatable 24% figure, when I can use the numbers that are much more relatable?

Perhaps, if you have good reason to believe my figures are flawed, you could show your work instead of just linking paywalled articles?

FrancieBrady

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

The documented decline of Catholic influence in Ireland is clearly part of a decline of organized religion across the Western world. It is by no means specific to the Catholic Church in Ireland, as the decline of the Presbyterian church in Ireland (membership down 40 percent since 1975) illustrates.

The decline of the Roman Catholic church here is much more spectacular than elsewhere.
The 'spectacular' part is where it diverges from declines elsewhere.

That is what was staring them in the face yesterday and this weekend.
All sorts of excuses will not detract from that, unfortunately, as we will see whn the dust begins to settle.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

seamus wrote: »

Maybe the article is badly-worded, but it's all discussing the one ESS study, not two separate one - it claims the study says 24%, but a Church researcher who has looked at the data says it's 10%.

The ESS study says 24 percent of young Irish aged 16 to 29 attend religious services weekly, and 36 percent of adults overall.

Explain, please, how this "Church researcher" can look at the same data and derive a figure of 10 percent church attendance by young people?

Unless you have another better source, the ESS figure is the most credible figure that exists, and it's 24 percent, not 10 percent.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The decline of the Roman Catholic church here is much more spectacular than elsewhere.

It really isn't.

78 percent of the Irish population still self-identify as Catholics. We have the third highest church attendance in Europe, behind Portugal and Poland. Fewer than 10 percent of the population identify as having no religion.

Ireland remains one of the most religious countries in the Western world, with Catholicism predominating.

joe40

For me the decline in the catholic church is spectacular, partly because it was coming from such a high base.
Newly formed country in the 20 with limited resources so church immediately got full access to education and healthcare (did a lot of good but the horrors are also well documented) The political class up until the sixties was extremely insular, very little outside influence. A lot of emigration but they did not tend to come back in those years.
Catholicism was also tied up with nationalism and irishness. To criticise the church was to be no better than a protestant, shorthand for British.
It was a perfect storm for a society to develop absolute deference to a religion. John A Costello summed it up when he exclaimed that he was irish second but a catholic first.
The last 30 to 40 years have been a realignment to more European norms. Also the affect of universal education cannot be overstated.

Avatar MIA

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

The ESS study says 24 percent of young Irish aged 16 to 29 attend religious services weekly, and 36 percent of adults overall.
.

If adults, it's a staggering figure, but are you quoting the Irish Times or ESS. If the Irish Times they may have misinterpreted.

FrancieBrady

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

It really isn't.

78 percent of the Irish population still self-identify as Catholics. We have the third highest church attendance in Europe, behind Portugal and Poland. Fewer than 10 percent of the population identify as having no religion.

Ireland remains one of the most religious countries in the Western world, with Catholicism predominating.

The fall is spectacular.
1n 1990 81% said they attended weekly mass. Extrapolate what that percentage fall means...
Another 20 years at this rate and mass will be in a phone box, if you can find one of them.

ohnonotgmail

Cabaal wrote: »

Priest involved in organisation of the event put the figure at 200k on radio this morning,
Be 200 or 130k its a extremely low turnout.

He clearly learned his counting skills from Fr Dougal.

lawred2

Avatar MIA wrote: »

No, it's way more impressive than that. The Irish Times simply used the word adults, not just Catholics.

lol

didn't even notice that

usual piss poor journalism

Cabaal

https://www.broadsheet.ie/2018/08/27/no-words/



One has to ask why was Sean Brady greeting the pope at the weekend?
He was involved in the silencing of a teenage abuse victim back in 1975.

The abuse was carried out by Fr Brendan Smyth, Smyth went on to abuse others after 1975 because he wasn't stopped.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/7442132/Irish-sex-abuse-calls-for-Cardinal-to-quit-over-victims-silence-vow.html

How can the Vatican and the pope claim stuff has changed when they have no issues with people who covered up abuse being this involved in the church still?
:mad:

Its a slap in the face to the abuse victims,

seamus

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

The ESS study says 24 percent of young Irish aged 16 to 29 attend religious services weekly, and 36 percent of adults overall.

Explain, please, how this "Church researcher" can look at the same data and derive a figure of 10 percent church attendance by young people?

Unless you have another better source, the ESS figure is the most credible figure that exists, and it's 24 percent, not 10 percent.

Is it more credible because it suits your narrative?

It's right there in the article.

Prof. Bullivant, director of the Benedict XVI Centre for Religion and Society at St Mary’s University, Twickenham, said the ESS ... found that the six ‘most Christian’ nations are all historically Catholic-majority countries, such as Ireland and Poland.

Notably, the survey found that 54% of young adults aged between 16-29 in Ireland claim Catholic affiliation as opposed to 22% in Belgium and 10% in the UK. Poland had the highest number of young adult Catholics at 82%.

The survey also revealed that approximately one in 10 young Irish Catholics attend religious services on a weekly basis, excluding special occasions such as weddings or funerals, while 31% of the same category said they pray weekly or more.

Personally I find the figures which can in some way be related to other figures to more credible than the ones that don't align with the others.

So, how about YOU tell me how the article can claim the survey said 24%, and then later claim the same survey said 10%. And again, why don't you show your workings instead of just repeating the same figures that suit your narrative.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The fall is spectacular.
1n 1990 81% said they attended weekly mass. Extrapolate what that percentage fall means...
Another 20 years at this rate and mass will be in a phone box, if you can find one of them.

"Weekly mass attendance" is only one metric of how Catholic a country is. Many Irish Catholics don't attend mass every single week -- maybe they go less than once a week, or only once a month. But they still identify as Catholics (per the 78 percent figure on the Census), get married in the Church, baptize their children, have their children make their First Communion and Confirmation, etc. Many other metrics suggest that Ireland is still a very Catholic country. The "spectacular" decline in Catholicism -- usually claimed by biased commentators quoting selective figures -- is significantly overstated. Catholicism has declined, but not to the extent that some would like to believe.

ELM327

ELM327 wrote: »

There was obviously a count done as even the national broadcaster (usually a social right wing propaganda machine) did not try to inflate the numbers above 120000-130000.

If you look at the aerial shots during the mass even 130000 seems fanciful.

A good contrast to the 2.7mill quoted in the journal for the 1979 visit. Between this and the schools enrolment policies changing, there's hope yet to get rid of the stranglehold

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

seamus wrote: »

It's right there in the article.

Yes, look at what's "right there in the article" that you yourself linked.

Narratives of religious decline in Ireland are overstated, a leading Church number-cruncher has said, as new figures confirm that Ireland’s young adults practice their Faith in surprisingly large numbers.

Indeed, Irish young adults remain among the most religious young adults in Europe, with around 24% of young people attending Mass weekly, according to the latest figures from the European Social Survey (ESS).

“It’s simply not the case in Ireland that we’ve got a kind of Catholic old generation who are dying off and this bright, new secular generation is taking over. Even among young adults we see that Ireland is extremely Catholic, other than Poland, by any other normal comparison,” Prof. Stephen Bullivant told The Irish Catholic.

What does the article actually say?

-- Young Irish adults practice their faith in surprisingly large numbers.
-- The decline of religion in Ireland is overstated.
-- 24 percent of young Irish (16-29) attend mass weekly, per the ESS.
-- Ireland is "extremely Catholic .. by any normal comparison."

And yet you're citing this article as proof of the spectacular collapse of Catholicism. :pac:

Cabaal

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

"Weekly mass attendance" is only one metric of how Catholic a country is. Many Irish Catholics don't attend mass every single week -- maybe they go less than once a week, or only once a month. But they still identify as Catholics (per the 78 percent figure on the Census), get married in the Church, baptize their children, have their children make their First Communion and Confirmation, etc.

So they are catholic but they can't be bnothered do some of the bnasic stuff you are supposed to do as a catholic. The phrase you need to use here is.

bouncy castle Catholics.

Basically they do the catholic stuff for a nice day out, but outside of that they laugh at the very idea of transubstantiation and other CORE catholic beliefs.

Many other metrics suggest that Ireland is still a very Catholic country. The "spectacular" decline in Catholicism -- usually claimed by biased commentators quoting selective figures -- is significantly overstated. Catholicism has declined, but not to the extent that some would like to believe.

You are funny. so other metrics would be what exactly?

These?
- the landslide victory for the yes vote in the May ref, completely going against the teachings of the catholic church and the words of the pope?
- The usage of condoms and pills across the country completely against church teaching.
- The opposition to the church in relation to its backwards views on divorce
- The yes side winning the marriage ref back in 2015 even though the church hates gay people? Again, completely against church teaching
- The very very large percentage of unmarried women who give birth each year, completely against church teaching

What other metric is it?
:rolleyes:

FrancieBrady

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

"Weekly mass attendance" is only one metric of how Catholic a country is. Many Irish Catholics don't attend mass every single week -- maybe they go less than once a week, or only once a month. But they still identify as Catholics (per the 78 percent figure on the Census), get married in the Church, baptize their children, have their children make their First Communion and Confirmation, etc. Many other metrics suggest that Ireland is still a very Catholic country. The "spectacular" decline in Catholicism -- usually claimed by biased commentators quoting selective figures -- is significantly overstated. Catholicism has declined, but not to the extent that some would like to believe.

They may be many things but if they are not observing the rules, Sunday mass attendance being regulation' then Catholics they aren't which is what we are saying here.

It is time for that to change how we plan for this society.

ohnonotgmail

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

It really isn't.

78 percent of the Irish population still self-identify as Catholics. We have the third highest church attendance in Europe, behind Portugal and Poland. Fewer than 10 percent of the population identify as having no religion.

Ireland remains one of the most religious countries in the Western world, with Catholicism predominating.

Speaking of church attendance i am going to have to disagree with the 36% figure from the IT. I had a look at the ESS data for 2016 and i cant 36% as a figure for those that attend at least once a week. According to the data it is 13.9%. If you break it down again by age it is massively skewed towards older people, which is not a surprise.

murpho999

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

"Weekly mass attendance" is only one metric of how Catholic a country is. Many Irish Catholics don't attend mass every single week -- maybe they go less than once a week, or only once a month. But they still identify as Catholics (per the 78 percent figure on the Census), get married in the Church, baptize their children, have their children make their First Communion and Confirmation, etc. Many other metrics suggest that Ireland is still a very Catholic country. The "spectacular" decline in Catholicism -- usually claimed by biased commentators quoting selective figures -- is significantly overstated. Catholicism has declined, but not to the extent that some would like to believe.

It's the "A la carte" catholics that have to change their attutudes in the next census.

Many people are culturally conditioned to get their children christened and then communion, confirmation etc but not do anything with the church outside that.

Poor attendance like that with any other club/organisation would result in loss of membership but the church don't do that.

People need to be brave and leave the church behibd.

Also, the media need to stop promoting the church.

No more Angelus on RTE. No more "Celebrity" priests and bishops on The Late Late Show, less reverential coverage of church events, stop interviewing local priests as first port of call when something tragic happens to say "the community is shocked and he was a lovely lad" etc when he most likely did not know the person at all.

I really find the media outlets are not representative of what is actually happening.

FrancieBrady

Cabaal wrote: »

So they are catholic but they can't be bnothered do some of the bnasic stuff you are supposed to do as a catholic. The phrase you need to use here is.

bouncy castle Catholics.

Basically they do the catholic stuff for a nice day out, but outside of that they laugh at the very idea of transubstantiation and other CORE catholic beliefs.

The RC church is so hypocritical about this very thing. A blind eye is turned to the fact that most people use the church in an a la carte way.

Let's say they just started again and looked for membership based on the actual rules.

No Contraception.
No woman in a controlling authority job.
No sex before marrying in the church.
No gays or lesbians allowed the sacrament or marriage.
The boss is infallible.

etc etc etc.

How many would join?

ohnonotgmail

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

Yes, look at what's "right there in the article" that you yourself linked.



What does the article actually say?

-- Young Irish adults practice their faith in surprisingly large numbers.
-- The decline of religion in Ireland is overstated.
-- 24 percent of young Irish (16-29) attend mass weekly, per the ESS.
-- Ireland is "extremely Catholic .. by any normal comparison."

And yet you're citing this article as proof of the spectacular collapse of Catholicism. :pac:

and yet the actual figures don't say that at all. I suspect that he is, in the parlance of the youth, talking out of his hoop

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The RC church is so hypocritical about this very thing. A blind eye is turned to the fact that most people use the church in an a la carte way.

Let's say they just started again and looked for membership based on the actual rules.

No Contraception.
No woman in a controlling authority job.
No sex before marrying in the church.
No gays or lesbians allowed the sacrament or marriage.
The boss is infallible.

etc etc etc.

How many would join?

And missing mass without a good excuse is a mortal sin

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

Cabaal wrote: »

You are funny. so other metrics would be what exactly?

These?
- the landslide victory for the yes vote in the May ref, completely going against the teachings of the catholic church and the words of the pope?
- The usage of condoms and pills across the country completely against church teaching.
- The opposition to the church in relation to its backwards views on divorce
- The yes side winning the marriage ref back in 2015 even though the church hates gay people? Again, completely against church teaching
- The very very large percentage of unmarried women who give birth each year, completely against church teaching

What other metric is it?
:rolleyes:

According to you, someone can be Catholic only if they vote against abortion, don't use contraceptives, don't have sex before marriage, don't support same-sex marriage, and follow to the letter of the law every other pronouncement or teaching the Church has ever made.

In short, you have a list of purity tests that someone must pass before he or she can identify as a Catholic.

Which is simply silly. There are clearly many people who have sex before marriage, use contraception, support gay marriage, etc., and still go to church and identify as Catholic.

seamus

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

-- Young Irish adults practice their faith in surprisingly large numbers.

Opinion, not data.

-- The decline of religion in Ireland is overstated.

Opinion, not data.

-- 24 percent of young Irish (16-29) attend mass weekly, per the ESS.

You added the "16-29" part, the article doesn't qualify what "Young Irish" is, nor does it clarify what the ESS defines it as.

-- Ireland is "extremely Catholic .. by any normal comparison."

Opinion, not fact. What is "normal comparison", who defines it?

And yet you're citing this article as proof of the spectacular collapse of Catholicism. :pac:

I'm just using the figures that I can find. The opinions are irrelevant. I deliberately chose a pro-Catholic source.

FrancieBrady

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

According to you, someone can be Catholic only if they vote against abortion, don't use contraceptives, don't have sex before marriage, don't support same-sex marriage, and follow to the letter of the law every other pronouncement or teaching the Church has ever made.

In short, you have a list of purity tests that someone must pass before he or she can identify as a Catholic.

Which is simply silly. There are clearly many people who have sex before marriage, use contraception, support gay marriage, etc., and still go to church and identify as Catholic.

And clearly, this church is turning a blind eye to wholesale breaking of it's rules but will insist that it's archaic dogma and rules are followed in education and health infrastructure they are involved in.

Hypocrisy of the highest order yet again from the Holy See.

Avatar MIA

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

... and identify as Catholic.

But not act like one.

Bit like Jew's, culturally from a certain religion, but many not practicing.

murpho999

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

According to you, someone can be Catholic only if they vote against abortion, don't use contraceptives, don't have sex before marriage, don't support same-sex marriage, and follow to the letter of the law every other pronouncement or teaching the Church has ever made.

In short, you have a list of purity tests that someone must pass before he or she can identify as a Catholic.

Which is simply silly. There are clearly many people who have sex before marriage, use contraception, support gay marriage, etc., and still go to church and identify as Catholic.

If you are Catholic, and identify as Catholic then you have to follow their beliefs and rules.

You don't have a choice on this.

If you don't believe in the stuff they preach then don't support them and identify as Christian and don't associate to a church.

.......

If baptism was no longer a requirement for most schools and the HSE opened up civil marriages to be available on Saturdays and Sundays (and bank holidays) I think we would see an even bigger shift away from the Church for the "cultural" stuff.

Theres definitely a market gap out there for non religious funerals. I have attended a number in recent years in churches where the families have said they only used a church because of the lack of other options.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And clearly, this church is turning a blind eye to wholesale breaking of it's rules....

Quite the contrary, in fact. The pope's own Amoris Laetitia acknowledges that gay Catholics, divorced Catholics, single parents, and others who do not fit the traditional mold deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. It urges clergy to “avoid judgements which do not take into account the complexity of various situations.” It says that people should not be “pigeonholed or fit into overly rigid classifications leaving no room for personal and pastoral discernment.” They should avoid “thinking that everything is black and white” and should not "simply apply moral laws to those living in 'irregular' situations, as if they were stones to throw at people’s lives."

kunst nugget

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

According to you, someone can be Catholic only if they vote against abortion, don't use contraceptives, don't have sex before marriage, don't support same-sex marriage, and follow to the letter of the law every other pronouncement or teaching the Church has ever made.

In short, you have a list of purity tests that someone must pass before he or she can identify as a Catholic.

Which is simply silly. There are clearly many people who have sex before marriage, use contraception, support gay marriage, etc., and still go to church and identify as Catholic.

The problem is that even though they may identify as Catholics, they can't be considered properly practising Catholics in the eyes of the church. Sex before marriage is considered a mortal sin and contraception would be considered one by many people as well.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

murpho999 wrote: »

If you are Catholic, and identify as Catholic then you have to follow their beliefs and rules.

I think Pope Francis himself would disagree with that, given his own emphasis on a Church that offers empathy and comfort rather than one that imposes rigid codes of conduct.

kunst nugget

....... wrote: »

If baptism was no longer a requirement for most schools I think we would see an even bigger shift away from the Church for the "cultural" stuff.

The new School Admissions Bill means that oversubscribed schools cannot discriminate based on religion so that's not going to be an excuse anymore.

Beechwoodspark

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

Yes, look at what's "right there in the article" that you yourself linked.



What does the article actually say?

-- Young Irish adults practice their faith in surprisingly large numbers.
-- The decline of religion in Ireland is overstated.
-- 24 percent of young Irish (16-29) attend mass weekly, per the ESS.
-- Ireland is "extremely Catholic .. by any normal comparison."

And yet you're citing this article as proof of the spectacular collapse of Catholicism. :pac:

Ireland is a very catholic country. Just look at the education system, the healthcare system alone. Regardless of whether they go to mass or not the Irish are cultural Catholics to some degree or other.