So who's going to see the Pope?

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

kunst nugget wrote: »

The problem is that even though they may identify as Catholics, they can't be considered properly practising Catholics in the eyes of the church. Sex before marriage is considered a mortal sin and contraception would be considered one by many people as well.

Pope Francis has admitted that the Church in the past church has made mistakes in alienating people with rigid rules and a harshly judgmental attitude. He's not saying, "If you don't do X, Y, and Z, you can't be a Catholic." Quite the opposite.

ohnonotgmail

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Ireland is a very catholic country. Just look at the education system, the healthcare system alone. Regardless of whether they go to mass or not the Irish are cultural Catholics to some degree or other.

The amount of power it exerts over our education and healthcare systems is not indicative of how catholic this country is. Catholic in name only not in practice.

murpho999

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

I think Pope Francis himself would disagree with that, given his own emphasis on a Church that offers empathy and comfort rather than one that imposes rigid codes of conduct.

Then he needs to change the rules.

I don't think the pope in any way supports gay marriage, abortion or contraception.

It still baffles me that people need the church at all in their lives.

Trasna1

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The fall is spectacular.
1n 1990 81% said they attended weekly mass. Extrapolate what that percentage fall means...
Another 20 years at this rate and mass will be in a phone box, if you can find one of them.

It really depends on your frame of reference. Going from 80% to 20ish% is indeed a spectacular fall, but when you put it in the context of the wider economy and society in how we have equalised and surpassed the European average in many other societal indices - it has held up surprisingly well - but it has to be acknowledged it is being largely supported by a base whose faith formation preceded the liberalisation of Irelands economy and society. Catholicism in Ireland is dying in it's beds.

In terms of whether the numbers attending the event in the Phoenix Park were important - yes the numbers matter very much. One of the main points of the papal visit was to show Catholics in Ireland that after many years of being at the pointed end of scandal, and after losing two referendums was to show that they were still a sizeable cohort, that they mattered. To be perfectly honest, (rain notwithstanding) before the official attendance is released, there was obviously significantly less than half the expected crowd there. So rather than it being the hoped for show of strength, it turned out to be a show of weakness. If after loss of the 8th there were still questions over how relevant the Catholic caucus was, it has been answered in a clear - it does not.


The real smooth running of the event can possibly be put down in no small part to the overstaffing. But it was run well too to be fair. In relation to tickets, it must have been clear to event control that the numbers weren't materialising early on so overcrowding was never going to be an issue and therefore the idea of ticket checks was abandoned. I did enjoy the day however, and it was a nice experience.

Crowd estimation is hard so I'm reluctant to put a figure on it, but when it is released it will be extremely disappointing for the organisers.

Avatar MIA

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

Pope Francis haes admitted that the Church in the past church has made mistakes in alienating people with rigid rules and a harshly judgmental attitude. He's not saying, "If you don't do X, Y, and Z, you can't be a Catholic." Quite the opposite.

So, you can get into heaven by claiming rather than acting like a Catholic. Good to know.

Beechwoodspark

Lots of ppl are not at all devout but still adamant they are Catholics.

jmayo

NIMAN wrote: »

In the great scheme of things, it was a flop.

There will be some who defend it like their lives depend on it, but it was a flop, end of.

Just to rock the boat, places exist outside Dublin.
And just in case some of the cosmopolitans dare swing the attendance that did show up as the culchies turning out, the culchies stayed away in droves this time, just like their city counterparts.

Rath than just concentrate on just the Phoenix Park and how much lower it was than the over 1 million in 1979.

Lets look at the rest.

The pope went to Drogheda where there were something like 300,000.
When he came back to Dublin there were over 500,000 out on the streets to greet him.

When he visited Clonmacnoise there were nearly 20,000 people.

He visited Ballybirt where there were 200,000 young people that he professed he loved.
Of course we were later to find out a lot of his priests loved young people in a different way. :rolleyes:
Oh and the two high profile clergy he shared the altar with had kids.

He then went on to Knock where there were something like 450,000.
My mother and most of our neighbours included.
And to dispel the myth being put out now about the weather having major affect on attendances, the weather that day in Knock was shyte.
As a kid at home, I couldn't even see the cattle in the fields due to the mist and drizzle.
Still happier than sitting waiting to see the pope 30 miles away in Knock.

And the crowds this time in Knock by all accounts were even shy of the 45,000 expected and planned for.

When the pope in 1979 visited Maynooth seminary there were supposedly something like 50,000 there.

And he then finished off the visit with Limerick racecourse another 400,000 odd were there.

All in all the pope in 1979 was greeted by something in the region of nearly 2.5 million people out of a population of roughly 3.5 million.

This time he might have been greeted by 300,000 odd.

I would equate it to the once great rock or pop act that filled out Croke Park, but now bearly fill the Olympia.

The times have changed.

The CC are still covering up child care abuse. News reports saying one of the pedo priests from the latest scandal in the US was retired from public services by the CC. Only to be sent then sent to China and Cuba..

Also its alledged the CC top brass knew all about it.

Nothing to see here. It's only children..

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

murpho999 wrote: »

I don't think the pope in any way supports gay marriage, abortion or contraception.

The pope has said in a recent interview: "It is not necessary to talk about [abortion, gay marriage and contraception] all the time. The dogmatic and moral teachings of the church are not all equivalent. The church’s pastoral ministry cannot be obsessed with the transmission of a disjointed multitude of doctrines to be imposed insistently."

In short, there's much more to being a Catholic, in the eyes of Pope Francis, than "following the rules" on a narrow spectrum of issues.

It still baffles me that people need the church at all in their lives.

Well, many do want and need it. It's a personal decision.

kunst nugget

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

Pope Francis has admitted that the Church in the past church has made mistakes in alienating people with rigid rules and a harshly judgmental attitude. He's not saying, "If you don't do X, Y, and Z, you can't be a Catholic." Quite the opposite.

Pope Francis has made certain pronouncements that seem to run completely contrary to Canon Law and which have caused considerable consternation with some cardinals and Catholic scholars.

amdublin

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Ireland is a very catholic country. Just look at the education system, the healthcare system alone. Regardless of whether they go to mass or not the Irish are cultural Catholics to some degree or other.

There are (a lot) of people out there who object to the examples you gave.

It's a bit ridiculous. The church and state must be separated imo.

People can continue to choose their religion/faith/church etc.

But Catholicism is definitely fading in Ireland imo.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

kunst nugget wrote: »

Pope Francis has made certain pronouncements that seem to run completely contrary to Canon Law and which have caused considerable consternation with some cardinals and Catholic scholars.

Yes, and he should be applauded for it, in my view. He is the most forward-thinking pope in a very long time, and is more than willing to acknowledge the many mistakes that the church has made in the past.

Currache

Not me anyway!

harr

So the pope was asked about Leo’s comments about new types of family in Ireland (same sex couples) the popes reply was to open dialogue with a child who might think they are gay and to include psychiatric if possible.
That was said in the interview on the plane as he departed Ireland..

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

seamus wrote: »

You added the "16-29" part, the article doesn't qualify what "Young Irish" is, nor does it clarify what the ESS defines it as.

The 16-29 part is indeed in the article, as the definition of what is meant by young adults. You must have overlooked it, along with all the other parts you somehow managed to overlook.

I'm just using the figures that I can find.

And yet you somehow managed to miss the headline figure in the article. Let me quote it for you again, from the second paragraph: "around 24% of young people attend Mass weekly, according to the latest figures from the European Social Survey (ESS)."

FrancieBrady

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

The pope has said in a recent interview: "It is not necessary to talk about [abortion, gay marriage and contraception] all the time. The dogmatic and moral teachings of the church are not all equivalent. The church’s pastoral ministry cannot be obsessed with the transmission of a disjointed multitude of doctrines to be imposed insistently."

In short, there's much more to being a Catholic, in the eyes of Pope Francis, than "following the rules" on a narrow spectrum of issues.


.

So what was all the objection and campaigning against the recent referendums about?

I will tell you what it was - this hypocritical church saying one thing while doing another in actuality and reality. Lying and waffling to cover the truth.

It is what has plagued it and led to it's stunning decline and it seems no closer to solving that on this Monday than it was last Monday and the Monday before.

You are witnessing the end of something not the begining.

harr

harr wrote: »

So the pope was asked about Leo’s comments about new types of family in Ireland (same sex couples) the popes reply was to open dialogue with a child who might think they are gay and to include psychiatric if possible.
That was said in the interview on the plane as he departed Ireland..

The CC are decades behind the developing world.

Glad they are dying off in Ireland. They have twisted views and cover up child abuse. Sick.

hatrickpatrick

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Oh never underestimate the power of faith and ultimately hope, catholicism isn't dead yet

Isn't that the issue, though? Right wing Catholicism has managed to totally separate "faith" and "hope" and place them diametrically opposed to one another, by vilifying a universal and unavoidable aspect of being a human. It's difficult to see the message of Catholicism as a "hopeful" one when there are sincere prachers within Catholicism who think that even entertaining the thought that someone you're looking at is sexually attractive is something you have to go home and desperately plead forgiveness for in order to avoid ending up burning for all eternity.

Again I can only speak for myself, but my estrangement from Catholicism as a teenager was precisely because I couldn't reconcile the idea that Catholicism was a "positive" or "hopeful" message when there were so many voices interpreting that "adultery in one's heart" passage to mean "have a crush on a girl in school, find her sexy? Congratulations, you're now in God's bad books."

The message around this needs to fundamentally change or it will never again resonate in a world which has moved on from seeing deliberately self-inflicted suffering and anguish as a positive virtue.

Trasna1

jmayo wrote: »

He then went on to Knock where there were something like 450,000.
My mother and most of our neighbours included.
And to dispel the myth being put out now about the weather having major affect on attendances, the weather that day in Knock was shyte.
As a kid at home, I couldn't even see the cattle in the fields due to the mist and drizzle.
Still happier than sitting waiting to see the pope 30 miles away in Knock.
d.

As someone who has intimate knowledge of the running of a free public event (obviously nothing close to this scale) weather has a huge impact on attendance - though it wouldnt want to point the finger at that as the reason for poor attendance yesterday. The reason probably knocked a couple of percent off the attendance at most - since attending this had to be planned for.

One of the more significant barriers to attending would have been the long walks involved. As I said in my previous post, many of the most devout are elderly and therefore wouldn't have been fit for the day, so didn't go. This obviously contrasts with 79 when it was a broad following the CC had. That visit though was cloaked in positivity and generated it's own momentum which had a huge impact on turnout. The same can't be said for this one.

The size of the crowd will probably reflect how the Catholic Church see itself and it's congregation size in about 10 years, when today's old and infirm are gone.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

harr wrote: »

So the pope was asked about Leo’s comments about new types of family in Ireland (same sex couples) the popes reply was to open dialogue with a child who might think they are gay and to include psychiatric if possible.
That was said in the interview on the plane as he departed Ireland..

To the question on how a family should treat a gay or lesbian child, the pope said: "To ignore a son or daughter with homosexual tendencies is a lack of paternity and maternity. You are my son, you are my daughter as you are! I’m your father, mother. Let’s talk! And if you, father and mother aren’t up to it, ask for help, but always in dialogue because that son and that daughter have the right to a family and that family of not being chased out of the family."

This is a message of acceptance. He's telling parents who reject gay children that they are not fulfilling their parental role. He's telling gay children that they too have the right to a family. So where's the problem?

ohnonotgmail

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

The 16-29 part is indeed in the article, as the definition of what is meant by young adults. You must have overlooked it, along with all the other parts you somehow managed to overlook.



And yet you somehow managed to miss the headline figure in the article. Let me quote it for you again, from the second paragraph: "around 24% of young people attend Mass weekly, according to the latest figures from the European Social Survey (ESS)."

I posted the actual ESS figures earlier.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

and yet the actual figures don't say that at all. I suspect that he is, in the parlance of the youth, talking out of his hoop

Guy:Incognito

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

It really isn't.

78 percent of the Irish population still self-identify as Catholics. We have the third highest church attendance in Europe, behind Portugal and Poland. Fewer than 10 percent of the population identify as having no religion.

Ireland remains one of the most religious countries in the Western world, with Catholicism predominating.

I wonder how many of the people actually fill in the form themselves rather than a mother/father filling it in and ticking Catholic for everyone in the house?

Beechwoodspark

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

The pope has said in a recent interview: "It is not necessary to talk about [abortion, gay marriage and contraception] all the time. The dogmatic and moral teachings of the church are not all equivalent. The church’s pastoral ministry cannot be obsessed with the transmission of a disjointed multitude of doctrines to be imposed insistently."

In short, there's much more to being a Catholic, in the eyes of Pope Francis, than "following the rules" on a narrow spectrum of issues.



Well, many do want and need it. It's a personal decision.

It’s called freedom of religion and our constitution protects it

Dannyriver

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

To the question on how a family should treat a gay or lesbian child, the pope said: "To ignore a son or daughter with homosexual tendencies is a lack of paternity and maternity. You are my son, you are my daughter as you are! I’m your father, mother. Let’s talk! And if you, father and mother aren’t up to it, ask for help, but always in dialogue because that son and that daughter have the right to a family and that family of not being chased out of the family."

This is a message of acceptance. He's telling parents who reject gay children that they are not fulfilling their parental role. He's telling gay children that they too have the right to a family. So where's the problem?

Selective use of his statement he also suggested that psychiatric intervention also be an option thus alluding to conversion therapy which is out lawed by the American Psychiatric association for it being dangerous and damaging for those that have been put through it

Beechwoodspark

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

I wonder how many of the people actually fill in the form themselves rather than a mother/father filling it in and ticking Catholic for everyone in the house?

Loads of ppl are not at all devout or mass goers but are adamant they are Catholics and would tell you forcefully that they are catholic

Sardine

Money isn’t the new religion. And social media.

ohnonotgmail

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Loads of ppl are not at all devout or mass goers but are adamant they are Catholics and would tell you forcefully that they are catholic

There is a word for that : Hypocrisy.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

Dannyriver wrote: »

Selective use of his statement he also suggested that psychiatric intervention also be an option thus alluding to conversion therapy which is out lawed by the American Psychiatric association for it being dangerous and damaging for those that have been put through it

He said:

Then, at what age does this restlessness of the child express itself? It’s important. One thing is when it shows itself in a child. There are many things to do with psychiatry, to see how things are. Another thing is when it manifests itself after 20 years of age… But I’ll never say that silence is a remedy.

Where in this does he support conversion therapy?

Beechwoodspark

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

There is a word for that : Hypocrisy.

Maybe so. That’s for them to ponder I guess

FrancieBrady

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Loads of ppl are not at all devout or mass goers but are adamant they are Catholics and would tell you forcefully that they are catholic

Generally when they want something only Roman Catholics can have. Otherwise it is 'whatever'.

Dannyriver

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

He said:



Where in this does he support conversion therapy?

You don t think the use of the word 'psychiatry' is pertinent no?

Currache

Probably not!

Trasna1

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

I wonder how many of the people actually fill in the form themselves rather than a mother/father filling it in and ticking Catholic for everyone in the house?

If you're not a dependent you should be filling in your section yourself.

Maybe many would see Catholicism as almost a meaningless label, just something that you are but doesn't impart any obligations on you.

When it comes to faith, it's not something that many are comfortable thinking about or questioning imo, hence you get a sort of default answer.

FrancieBrady

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

To the question on how a family should treat a gay or lesbian child, the pope said: "To ignore a son or daughter with homosexual tendencies is a lack of paternity and maternity. You are my son, you are my daughter as you are! I’m your father, mother. Let’s talk! And if you, father and mother aren’t up to it, ask for help, but always in dialogue because that son and that daughter have the right to a family and that family of not being chased out of the family."

This is a message of acceptance. He's telling parents who reject gay children that they are not fulfilling their parental role. He's telling gay children that they too have the right to a family. So where's the problem?

Even the language here is offenxive to gay people I would imagine.
'homosexual 'tendencies'???

You are either gay or you are not, I would have thought.

Dannyriver

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

He said:



Where in this does he support conversion therapy?

As a matter of interest why do you think he used the word 'psychiatry' as a possible intervention at the parents disposal.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

Dannyriver wrote: »

You don t think the use of the word 'psychiatry' is pertinent no?

Not especially. You seem to have jumped to the conclusion that "The pope said the word 'psychiatry.' OMG he supports conversion therapy!"

It's clear from the context that he supports dialogue between Catholic parents and their gay children, and acceptance of those gay children into the family structure.

Dannyriver

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

Not especially. You seem to have jumped to the conclusion that "The pope said the word 'psychiatry.' OMG he supports conversion therapy!"

It's clear from the context that he supports dialogue between Catholic parents and their gay children, and acceptance of those gay children into the family structure.

As a matter of interest why do you think he used the word 'psychiatry' as a possible intervention at the parents disposal.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I posted the actual ESS figures earlier.

You clearly aren't able to make head nor tail of the ESS figures.

Here's a chart from the BBC, also based on the ESS figures.



I'll wait for you to tell the BBC that they're wrong now as well.

RoryMac

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

Yes, and he should be applauded for it, in my view. He is the most forward-thinking pope in a very long time, and is more than willing to acknowledge the many mistakes that the church has made in the past.

Hes certainly the pope best versed in PR for a very long time and while he acknowledges many of the mistakes made in the past he's done little of substance to bring the perpetrators of this crimes to justice

ohnonotgmail

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

You clearly aren't able to make head nor tail of the ESS figures.

Here's a chart from the BBC, also based on the ESS figures.



I'll wait for you to tell the BBC that they're wrong now as well.

It is funny how they apparently looked at the same data as the IT and came up with a different figure. the IT said 36% and they are saying over 40%. I posted the figures directly from the ESS website. Which do you think are more accurate?

FrancieBrady

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

You clearly aren't able to make head nor tail of the ESS figures.

Here's a chart from the BBC, also based on the ESS figures.



I'll wait for you to tell the BBC that they're wrong now as well.

We know Roman Catholics routinely lie about these things, you have admitted it yourself.

No figure can be trusted. But by all means visit churches and the evidence is there. Like the vast area put aside for this visit yesterday you will find vast buildings with a smattering of people inside celebrating mass.

Currache

No I don't see any point in going to be honest

lawred2

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

You clearly aren't able to make head nor tail of the ESS figures.

Here's a chart from the BBC, also based on the ESS figures.



I'll wait for you to tell the BBC that they're wrong now as well.

ahem

I'll say it again

% of Catholics

What are we supposed to take that number as?

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

Dannyriver wrote: »

As a matter of interest why do you think he used the word 'psychiatry' as a possible intervention at the parents disposal.

He didn't mention "intervention." Read his comments in context. He was talking about people who realize they are gay as children, versus people who don't realize until much later, and suggested that psychiatry might be able to provide some insight on this.

You have jumped to the conclusion that he supports "psychiatric intervention" and "conversion therapy," which he clearly does not. He said in his press conference that there have always been homosexual people in society. He advocates for them to be accepted by their families, and indicates that a mother or father who cannot accept a gay child is neglecting his or her parental responsibility to that child. This is actually the opposite of what supporters of conversion therapy would say.

cozar

and still there will be thousands of children making their communion and confirmation next year.?

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

It is funny how they apparently looked at the same data as the IT and came up with a different figure. the IT said 36% and they are saying over 40%. I posted the figures directly from the ESS website. Which do you think are more accurate?

It's remarkable how the BBC, the Irish Times, and numerous other media sources are all publishing entirely different interpretations of the ESS data -- and yet you're the one dancing around insisting that you are right and everyone else is wrong.

FrancieBrady

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

He didn't mention "intervention." Read his comments in context. He was talking about people who realize they are gay as children, versus people who don't realize until much later, and suggested that psychiatry might be able to provide some insight on this.

You have jumped to the conclusion that he supports "psychiatric intervention" and "conversion therapy," which he clearly does not. He said in his press conference that there have always been homosexual people in society. He advocates for them to be accepted by their families, and indicates that a mother or father who cannot accept a gay child is neglecting his or her parental responsibility to that child. This is actually the opposite of what supporters of conversion therapy would say.

Why would a gay child need psychiatry?

Such demeaning language. Perpetuating the myth that there is something wrong with a child who is gay.

Give it up Francis, you don't have a clue.

Dannyriver

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

He didn't mention "intervention." Read his comments in context. He was talking about people who realize they are gay as children, versus people who don't realize until much later, and suggested that psychiatry might be able to provide some insight on this.

You have jumped to the conclusion that he supports "psychiatric intervention" and "conversion therapy," which he clearly does not. He said in his press conference that there have always been homosexual people in society. He advocates for them to be accepted by their families, and indicates that a mother or father who cannot accept a gay child is neglecting his or her parental responsibility to that child. This is actually the opposite of what supporters of conversion therapy would say.

What kind of insight do you feel he is referring to?

ohnonotgmail

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

It's remarkable how the BBC, the Irish Times, and numerous other media sources are all publishing entirely different interpretations of the ESS data -- and yet you're the one dancing around insisting that you are right and everyone else is wrong.

I am just posting the actual data. How is then that the BBC and IT quote different figures? they can't both be right.



I redid the figures only including those who claim to be catholic. still nowhere near the figures given by either the BBC or the IT

spurious

If you are already self-identifying as Catholic, 40% weekly (or even regular) Mass attendance is still low.