Water charges revisited?

thomas 123

The point im making is The government have enough money.

The problem is how they spend it.

Throwing money in any direction is not going to fix the water problem.

Creating a billing entity with a call center to call people to ask for money and spending millions on water meters definitely isn't going to fix it...

BarryD2

blanch152 wrote: »

An absolute no-brainer, yet there were really stupid protests led by opportunistic populist politicians that caused the whole thing to be compromised.

Metered water charges were and are an absolute no brainer and some people allowed themselves to be manipulated and used by both elected and unelected characters, to oppose what was in their own best interests. Madness.

Nobody likes paying tax, but if they have to be paid, people want to see the money spent on clearly identifiable projects that improve their lives. Such was the case with water charges and now the suckers who swallowed the Ogle line may suffer.

BarryD2

Hitman3000 wrote: »

The 50% leakage rate is what's causing the real problem. Government bashing?

Whatever the leakage rate is, just pony up and get it fixed. If you're on a public water supply, then pony up and pay to have it fixed and improved. The rest of us already paying our own way for water have no interest in bailing you out.

thomas 123

BarryD2 wrote: »

Whatever the leakage rate is, just pony up and get it fixed. If you're on a public water supply, then pony up and pay to have it fixed and improved. The rest of us already paying our own way for water have no interest in bailing you out.

Would the problem here not be the rest of us paying for water already?(I too am on a GWS)

Why does it have to be an us vs them mentality?

FreudianSlippers

thomas 123 wrote: »

The point im making is The government have enough money.

The problem is how they spend it.

Throwing money in any direction is not going to fix the water problem.

Creating a billing entity with a call center to call people to ask for money and spending millions on water meters definitely isn't going to fix it...

1. The government quite clearly does not have enough money - that's just factual and there is a mountain of evidence to support that;
2. Throwing money at it would totally solve the problem - we even know how much money we need;
3. That "call center" was supposed to be a utility company and protesters who know nothing about infrastructure, government spending or, frankly, much of anything turned it into this.

FreudianSlippers

BarryD2 wrote: »

Whatever the leakage rate is, just pony up and get it fixed. If you're on a public water supply, then pony up and pay to have it fixed and improved. The rest of us already paying our own way for water have no interest in bailing you out.

I think that was the initial plan for Irish Water - they could borrow the money as a semi-private utility and make the repairs, keeping the cost of the borrowing off the books (and therefore within EU budgetary rules) whilst also complying with the "polluter pays principle" by ensuring high-use customers are paying for this use.

Irish Water, despite the conspiracy theorists claiming otherwise, was never about profitability of water - it was about ensuring that water infrastructure development and funding were kept off-book and ensuring that we weren't fined by the EU for failure to comply with the WSD. Certainly, the expert report dealt with the WSD compliance problem but it did nothing to address the infrastructure borrowing quandary.

FreudianSlippers

Oh by the way, I just checked again and it's going to cost at least €13bn to fix the water infrastructure in Ireland.

thomas 123

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

1. The government quite clearly does not have enough money - that's just factual and there is a mountain of evidence to support that;
2. Throwing money at it would totally solve the problem - we even know how much money we need;
3. That "call center" was supposed to be a utility company and protesters who know nothing about infrastructure, government spending or, frankly, much of anything turned it into this.

1.A.Rainy day fund - enough money to put away to give to the EU at a later date... B. NDP, why no mention of water there? Im sure we could come up with more examples if needed.

2.USC & Property Tax & VAT @23%? They didn't have it before the recession now we are doing great apparently? why not use this or whats it being spent on?

3.It became quite clear what it was when people refused to pay. Imagine if the people of rural Ireland where asked to pay for high speed internet years before they received it.

fxotoole

thomas 123 wrote: »

The point im making is The government have enough money.

The problem is how they spend it.

Throwing money in any direction is not going to fix the water problem.

Creating a billing entity with a call center to call people to ask for money and spending millions on water meters definitely isn't going to fix it...

They don't have nearly enough money to deal with the water infrastructure properly. Not matter whatever way you slice it, water charges are inevitable.

FreudianSlippers

thomas 123 wrote: »

1.A.Rainy day fund - enough money to put away to give to the EU at a later date...

1. The so-called "rainy day fund" is not to give to the EU.
2. It doesn't exist yet.
3. It's expected to be €1.5bn - so about half the cost of fixing pipes in Dublin.

B. NDP, why no mention of water there? Im sure we could come up with more examples if needed.

NDP 2018-2027, Chapter 5, Page 83 - National Strategic Outcome 9. Sustainable Management of Water and other Environmental Resources

2.USC & Property Tax & VAT @23%? They didn't have it before the recession now we are doing great apparently? why not use this or whats it being spent on?

We have a government deficit of 0.3% of GDP - simply put, we don't take in as much money as we spend.

3.It became quite clear what it was when people refused to pay. Imagine if the people of rural Ireland where asked to pay for high speed internet years before they received it.

Nobody, to my knowledge, was being asked to pay for water before they received it.

CeilingFly

Hitman3000 wrote: »

50% of processed water leaking into the ground before the tap.

Current figure is circa 45% and the current infrastructure programme will bring that down to well under 40% within 2 years.

But massive money is needed to redo the archaic pipework

Generally around the world, unaccounted water represents 20-25% of treated water. Even in california who claim to have the most efficient water system in the world, unaccounted water is over 15%. So the real leakage/unaccounted target should be in the region of 20/25% - after that its uneconomical.

Hence, the current hosepipe ban that is in place to ensure supply of water even if we have another 6 weeks of dry weather is the right thing to do.

The Bishop Basher

blanch152 wrote: »

But that doesn't mean that a particular protest isn't stupid, misguided, ignorant, dangerously populist, crazy or wrong. And the Irish Water protests were all of those.

In your opinion..

The protesters, myself included, felt differently.

You only seem to like democracy when people agree with you which isn't how it works.

We won. The refunds are being processed. Water charges are off the table.

Move on..

FreudianSlippers

Rennaws wrote: »

In your opinion..

The protesters, myself included, felt differently.

You only seem to like democracy when people agree with you which isn't how it works.

We won. The refunds are being processed. Water charges are off the table.

Move on..

Water charges very much aren't off the table; they're back in January 2019 for any domestic user that uses over 213,000 litres per annum.

Water protesters didn't "win" anything - they assisted in ensuring that the Irish people will be unable to access a steady supply of a commodity. Funny enough, the protesters claimed that free water is a human right (which it isn't) and this "win" of yours could potentially impact negatively on the actual human rights regarding access to safe water.

Congratulations?

thomas 123

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Water charges very much aren't off the table; they're back in January 2019 for any domestic user that uses over 213,000 litres per annum.

Water protesters didn't "win" anything - they assisted in ensuring that the Irish people will be unable to access a steady supply of a commodity. Funny enough, the protesters claimed that free water is a human right (which it isn't) and this "win" of yours could potentially impact negatively on the actual human rights regarding access to safe water.

Congratulations?

How did we manage to provide clean water up until now?

Will you be happy when the government takes all our money or just 90% ?

FreudianSlippers

thomas 123 wrote: »

How did we manage to provide clean water up until now?

We don't. There's literally no water right now.

Will you be happy when the government takes all our money or just 90% ?

I'll be happy when government taxation policy is burnt to the ground and re-built in a fair and equitable manner to everyone and not just the lowest earners in society.

I'll be happy when we stop wasting tax money on utilities, such as water, and we have a well-run, regulated and subsidized semi-state water utility.

bladespin

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I'll be happy when we stop wasting tax money on utilities, such as water, and we have a well-run, regulated and subsidized semi-state water utility.

That could never happen here, they like their quangos and cronies too much, knew the old IW was doomed as soon as they started appointing, no thought at all just jobs for the boys and wages to beat the bank, wasted opportunity, VBTW it wasn't just the low incomes that protested, plenty of the middle guys did to.

Slightly alarmist, there is water now, Ireland didn't suddenly turn into sub Saharan Africa just because of a bit of sun, it'd take longer than a couple of weeks.

McMurphy

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

We don't. There's literally no water right now.

Ah come on, there is too.

There's a hose pipe ban in place in Dublin to try and conserve the water, but stating there literally isn't water at all is a bit of a stretch.

Hitman3000

FreudianSlippers wrote:

There's literally no water right now.

Are people just going to make nonsense claims now and expect to be taken serious?

thomas 123

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

We don't. There's literally no water right now.


I'll be happy when government taxation policy is burnt to the ground and re-built in a fair and equitable manner to everyone and not just the lowest earners in society.

I'll be happy when we stop wasting tax money on utilities, such as water, and we have a well-run, regulated and subsidized semi-state water utility.

Like said above - we cant do that in this country.

It would be great for 5-10 years then it will be sold to the likes of Nestle.

thomas 123

Sorry forgot to Add the few years of scandals tribunals and golden handshakes.

thomas 123

thomas 123 wrote: »

How did we manage to provide clean water up until now?

Will you be happy when the government takes all our money or just 90% ?

Are you suggesting that the government are just pocketing our money? How very dare they.

Hitman3000

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Are people just going to make nonsense claims now and expect to be taken serious?

Post of the day!

FreudianSlippers

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Ah come on, there is too.

There's a hose pipe ban in place in Dublin to try and conserve the water, but stating there literally isn't water at all is a bit of a stretch.

Hose pipe ban just for the craic? No, because we're seriously and dangerously short on water supplies. What do you suggest the rationale is for the hose pipe ban and general national request to conserve water?

thomas 123

Deleted User wrote: »

Are you suggesting that the government are just pocketing our money? How very dare they.

Good one - 10/10 contribution to the debate.

You should stay in the background and keep thanking comments.

And yes they pocket and misuse quite a lot of our money eg: Nama, Anglo Irish, Noreen O'Sullivans Pension.

thomas 123

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Hose pipe ban just for the craic? No, because we're seriously and dangerously short on water supplies. What do you suggest the rationale is for the hose pipe ban and general national request to conserve water?

To Irish waters credit its a little bit of thinking ahead in case of the worst.

Heres RTE's List of whats banned:(Lucky you can still drink it)
https://www.rte.ie/news/newslens/2018/0702/975722-hosepipe-ban-water-restrictions/

McMurphy

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Hose pipe ban just for the craic? No, because we're seriously and dangerously short on water supplies. What do you suggest the rationale is for the hose pipe ban and general national request to conserve water?

Let me remind you that you proclaimed there was literally No water right now.

Stop trying to shift the goalposts.

bladespin

thomas 123 wrote: »

To Irish waters credit its a little bit of thinking ahead in case of the worst.

Heres RTE's List of whats banned:(Lucky you can still drink it)
https://www.rte.ie/news/newslens/2018/0702/975722-hosepipe-ban-water-restrictions/

Is it just Dublin???

FreudianSlippers

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Let me remind you that you proclaimed there was literally No water right now.

Stop trying to shift the goalposts.

There is literally not enough water to adequately supply the country. That is a fact.

Hitman3000

Deleted User wrote:

Post of the day!

Not me MA that claimed there is 'literally no water' . I think FS deserves that distinction for his hyperbolic post.

FreudianSlippers

bladespin wrote: »

Is it just Dublin???

Greater Dublin Region at present, although I heard somewhere it may be extended nationwide - I'll see if I can dig out where I saw that.

EDIT: It was on Morning Ireland this morning - found a link here: https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/0702/974655-water/

ancapailldorcha

thomas 123 wrote: »

Good one - 10/10 contribution to the debate.

You should stay in the background and keep thanking comments.

And yes they pocket and misuse quite a lot of our money eg: Nama, Anglo Irish, Noreen O'Sullivans Pension.

Enough of the snide digs, please.

thomas 123

Noted.

The Bishop Basher

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Water charges very much aren't off the table; they're back in January 2019 for any domestic user that uses over 213,000 litres per annum.

Really

Good luck with that..

I can hear the banners and megaphones being dusted off up and down the country as we speak..

I can't be metered anyway and I intend on dying here so I won't be paying on the treble but I'll get out and march in support of everyone else again if I have to..

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Water protesters didn't "win" anything - they assisted in ensuring that the Irish people will be unable to access a steady supply of a commodity. Funny enough, the protesters claimed that free water is a human right (which it isn't) and this "win" of yours could potentially impact negatively on the actual human rights regarding access to safe water.

So you're sticking to the same line as last time ? Fair enough..

It's amazing that my tap still works at all but work it does.. We even have a major infrastructural project under way at the moment so i look forward to an uninterrupted supply of fresh water for many years to come.

All paid for by me and you.. The tax payer..

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Congratulations?

Nearly but not quite. Irish Water still exist. That said, I think we're stuck with them for now and i suppose we can try and get our moneys worth by letting them handle a few projects..

But congratulations on the fact that I achieved what I set out to achieve which was not having to pay yet another tax ?

Yes for sure. I'll take the congrats. Thank you

The Bishop Basher

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Greater Dublin Region at present, although I heard somewhere it may be extended nationwide - I'll see if I can dig out where I saw that.

EDIT: It was on Morning Ireland this morning - found a link here: https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/0702/974655-water/

Water shortages happen in many countries during the Summer months including countries that have a charge.

This is a complete red herring..

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/jan/05/south-east-england-at-risk-of-water-shortages-this-summer-officials-warn

phater phagan

My water is off in Kerry. Irish Water website really doesn't give any indication when it will be back on.
I was one of those who paid the water charges - but for a country of just 4.5 million people our public services are as inadequate as if there were 64.5 million in our small country. HSE, Water, etc. costing us first world expenditure for third world services. Very frustrating.

fxotoole

thomas 123 wrote: »

Good one - 10/10 contribution to the debate.

You should stay in the background and keep thanking comments.

And yes they pocket and misuse quite a lot of our money eg: Nama, Anglo Irish, Noreen O'Sullivans Pension.

All of which has nothing to do with water charges. Nice whatabouttery. Go you.

fxotoole

Rennaws wrote: »

Water shortages happen in many countries during the Summer months including countries that have a charge.

This is a complete red herring..

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/jan/05/south-east-england-at-risk-of-water-shortages-this-summer-officials-warn

Do those countries have adequate funding to provide water to the whole country during droughts?

Coz

FreudianSlippers wrote:

There is literally not enough water to adequately supply the country. That is a fact.

There is. The issue is that for every 1 litre of water used IW has to process 2 litres due to leakage.

This is because of poor investment over the years and our 3 contributions to Water Services being frittered away and not spent where they should be.

marno21

phater phagan wrote: »

My water is off in Kerry. Irish Water website really doesn't give any indication when it will be back on.
I was one of those who paid the water charges - but for a country of just 4.5 million people our public services are as inadequate as if there were 64.5 million in our small country. HSE, Water, etc. costing us first world expenditure for third world services. Very frustrating.

And with that constant objections to efficiencies and reform by self serving unions screaming "privatisation". The issue isn't funding, it's the obscenely inefficient way in which money is wasted in this country.

It would be much more beneficial if this year's Budget sought to cut the cost of living for people rather than throwing fivers at this person and the other. The mind boggles

marno21

Coz wrote: »

There is. The issue is that for every 1 litre of water used IW has to process 2 litres due to leakage.

This is because of poor investment over the years and our 3 contributions to Water Services being frittered away and not spent where they should be.

Exactly this. This was discussed on Today FM this evening and the one point that was made clear to listeners by one guest is that there's little benefit in piping water up from the Shannon only to lose half of it to leaks. Using meters to detect customer leaks and improving larger network leaks should be done asap instead of a massive project that will ultimately only give half benefits.

The Bishop Basher

fxotoole wrote: »

Do those countries have adequate funding to provide water to the whole country during droughts?

I've no idea. I was just making an observation that the presence of water charges do not magically eliminate water shortages and it would be misleading and dishonest to suggest otherwise..

Coz wrote: »

This is because of poor investment over the years and our 3 contributions to Water Services being frittered away and not spent where they should be.

In a nut shell..

It seems some people won't be happy till they've given the government every last cent they earn to flitter away on their behalf.

We have a mantra in work. Spend it like it's your own. So we do..

The waste i see in this country every day sickens me. We don't need more taxes. We need to eliminate the waste, broaden the tax base and start using the tax take far more efficiently.

Do that first and we might entertain a conversation about paying more but then if they did it efficiently in the first place they wouldn't need to ask for more.

phater phagan

I went to university in West Texas, not known for its high level of rainfall, and subject to long periods of extreme hot weather. Despite this I never had my water turned off due to weather. I'm bemused at why a month of good weather here produces such disruption of water services.

McMurphy

BarryD2 wrote: »

Furthermore FG or whoever is in power should NOT appropriate more of the general tax take towards water infrastructure across their coming budgets. Like many rural dwellers we've been paying for our water for many years and we also pay general tax.

I've read lines like this getting trotted out on these threads countless times now.

The thought of a rural dweller paying for their own water supply and general taxation simultaneously is quite noble, I'm sure we'll all agree.

What these lads often forget to mention is that they qualify for an annual subsistence grant from the govt, which would be funded by the rest of us taxpayers, not to mention the heavily subsidised lpt.

I'm just waiting for someone to come along and whinge that part of their tax is paying foe the treatment of cancer patients, while they themselves are fit and healthy.

fxotoole

Rennaws wrote: »

I've no idea. I was just making an observation that the presence of water charges do not magically eliminate water shortages and it would be misleading and dishonest to suggest otherwise..

My point is if they funded their water infrastructure properly, they'd be able to deal with droughts. Same with Ireland.

fxotoole

phater phagan wrote: »

I went to university in West Texas, not known for its high level of rainfall, and subject to long periods of extreme hot weather. Despite this I never had my water turned off due to weather. I'm bemused at why a month of good weather here produces such disruption of water services.

Because our water infrastructure is from the Victoria era, and a large cohort of people refuse to pay more taxes to help improve it, and then complain about how **** the infrastructure is. I'm guessing West Texas have a modern infrastructure and some sort of local authority tax?

The Bishop Basher

fxotoole wrote: »

Because our water infrastructure is from the Victoria era, and a large cohort of people refuse to pay more taxes to help improve it, and then complain about how **** the infrastructure is.

That's your opinion.

Another opinion is that a large cohort of people are already paying taxes for water and have grown tired of watching our government squander our hard earned tax dollars while they still try stick the arm a bit deeper looking for more cash that just isn't there. They've already taken it all.

A large cohort of people, probably the same cohort, are also sick and tired of watching the same business men, previously found to be involved in suspect dealings regarding state contracts, get more massively lucrative government contracts while living abroad and avoiding tax liabilities here.

Then take into account the fiasco that is Irish Water itself. From the get go the expenditure was out of control. €70,000,000 on consultant fees alone :eek:
A senior appointment of a man with appalling credentials in large public infrastructural projects. Bonus's being paid without a single target delivered. And who remembers those leaked powerpoint slides about how they were going to con us all into getting on board ?

The entire setup reeked of mismanagement and waste from the outset.

That aside though, when a large cohort of people influence government policy it's called democracy. If you don't like the outcome, you're well within your rights to go get a larger cohort and change it. I gave up a huge amount of annual leave and personal time to protest as did many others I know.

I make no apologies for the fact that we were successful. It was time well spent and i'll do it again if I have to

fxotoole wrote: »

I'm guessing West Texas have a modern infrastructure and some sort of local authority tax?

Do you mean like our family home tax that currently funds Irish Water and not all those local facilities for which we were told it was absolutely essential ?

How are we funding them by the way because round here the taps are still running and the street lights are still lighting which is at odds with what all the pro water tax people were saying would happen 3 years ago.

Johnnycanyon

El Tarangu wrote: »

While I 100% agree with you, I'm sure it won't happen. Paul Murphy's rent-a-mob would only be delighted for a chance to get out and about to jump on a bandwagon in the current sunny weather; I can't see either the current government or the next government (which I presume will be coalition of either FF or FG along with some strange bedfellows, with a very narrow majority) risking the political capital needed to go after the sacred cow of "free" water.

There never has or never will be free water in this country.

Edward M

Johnnycanyon wrote: »

There never has or never will be free water in this country.

I think his quote is actually making that point, but its a perception politicians use on the gp to garner votes.
There has been in general huge underfunding of the system, hence the leakages we have now.
The investment needed will never be enough taken from general taxation, we just can't afford the billions needed.
A charge for usage would enable a water company to borrow the investment required without affecting state borrowing or spend.
The state could still continue to pay the cost of running the service and delivering the water while the charges would fund the work needed by servicing the loans.
Its easy to cry when the service is curtailed and rationed, but paying for the service is a crying job too.
You can't have your cake and eat it!

aido79

Rennaws wrote: »

Really


It's amazing that my tap still works at all but work it does..

This here is the biggest problem among people against water charges. The mentality is that regardless of how much water is lost through leaks the onus will always be on the government to supply you with water. It doesn't matter how many other services have to fight for the money from the overall general taxation fund.

Does it not make even a little bit of sense to you to take the huge cost of supplying water to a majority of the homes in the country off the government books so that more of this money can be used for things like health and housing?

General taxation is not the bottomless pit of money that some people seem to think it is.

blanch152

aido79 wrote: »

This here is the biggest problem among people against water charges. The mentality is that regardless of how much water is lost through leaks the onus will always be on the government to supply you with water. It doesn't matter how many other services have to fight for the money from the overall general taxation fund.

Does it not make even a little bit of sense to you to take the huge cost of supplying water to a majority of the homes in the country off the government books so that more of this money can be used for things like health and housing?

General taxation is not the bottomless pit of money that some people seem to think it is.

For some people, water charges were the only government charge that they were actually going to see themselves pay.

Yes, they paid VAT, which is invisible, but apart from that, they didn't pay income tax, most of them didn't pay USC, and those that did, hated that they had to pay it.

In reality, there is a cohort of 15-25% of the population who don't visibly pay any taxes and weren't prepared to pay water charges, which is what brought them down.