Ireland Under 20 2019 6 Nations and World Championships

Heymans

Flannery is a disgrace.

10M touch finds from penalties out on the fifteen.

Dropping up and under the second before he is about to get crucified in a tackle.

It's amateur.

kingofthekong

Impressive reffereing there, clearly accidental

connemara man

Heymans wrote: »

Me take underage rugby less seriously? Never.

At my sons U7's games this season I ref the whole game from the sideline.

It's my attitude that breeds champions.

I would absolutely hate to be at your son's under 7s

If you can't inspire or get a better performance without berating a player you're doing it wrong

Heymans

connemara man wrote: »

I would absolutely hate to be at your son's under 7s

If you can't inspire or get a better performance without berating a player you're doing it wrong

In your opinion. My methods require discipline from the player.

Nothing wrong with barking demands and getting the player to follow step.

Did you ever watch Ultimate Hell Week on RTE? Something similar.

connemara man

Heymans wrote: »

In your opinion. My methods require discipline from the player.

Nothing wrong with barking demands and getting the player to follow step.

Did you ever watch Ultimate Hell Week on RTE? Something similar.

So you'll have a kid who'll be great and hate the sport

cool

thomond2006

You'd have to be quite a dose to roar from the sidelines at six year olds.

kingofthekong

Watters has really impressed me this tournament and perhaps one of the silver linnings of injuries is he has got his chance and shined brightly,

Really aggressive never give up type of player, deserves a contract of some sort

DonVito

Woosh.

Diabhal Beag

Heymans wrote: »

Did you ever watch Ultimate Hell Week on RTE? Something similar.

I sure hope the answer to this is No. Utter **** much like Flannery this tournament.

molloyjh

Why do some people give oxygen to this rubbish?

Disappointing end to the tournament for the lads. But they were screwed over by injuries. Sometimes that just happens, crap luck though it may be. It doesn't change a lot of the very real positives we saw over the course of the last 4-5 months.

Locke_Lamora

The injuries before and during the tournament really hurt us - Penny, Hawkshaw, Moloney and Byrne would've made a massive difference. Not the end of the world, developing professionals is the aim of this tournament and quite a few lads got more minutes to showcase themselves than they would otherwise have gotten.

Thought Baird was our player of the tournament, and looks basically ready-made for senior rugby. If I had to guess a few lads from this crop that are most likely to have decent international careers, I'd go with: Harry Byrne, John Hodnett, Josh Whycherly, Ryan Baird and Stewart Moore. I reckon there will be a lot more who'll be great provincial players and get a couple of caps, and there's plenty who have the potential to be regular internationals, but I just have a few question marks over them right now.

Not sure how strong next years crops is supposed to be, but we could have a handy enough forward pack - McCann, Clarkson and Ahern really impressed me and Deeny looked ok. Not sold on McKee but at least he'll have experience at this level, as will Ward.

Buer

Cracking final here. Irishman McDonald with a lengthy kick to go ahead with just over 10 to play. Had the legs but slightly left.

He doesn't have a fraction of the passing ability of Casey but I've been impressed with how scrappy and smart he is. Obviously a big voice in the team. Used very well as a sweeper in defence where he bosses things and organises his side. Good kicker too.

I wonder if a province will be in touch.

sydthebeat

Joseph is either very economical with his movements or he's bolloxed.... He's walking around the pitch and not making any effort to chase back

PetKing

This 'Les Bloo-aay' lark our of the commentator is really annoying me!

Buer

Jesus, if Australia lose by a point and go through the final 3/7 off the tee, they'll be utterly sick.

Digifriendly

Buer wrote: »

Jesus, if Australia lose by a point and go through the final 3/7 off the tee, they'll be utterly sick.

They must be sick. This was a very well prepared Australia U20s team, maybe one of the best they've had for some time and they kept NZ U20s scoreless in the Oceania Championship. So to lose as they did must be gut wrenching.
I must say despite France being the defending champions I didn't see them winning the title this time. But fair play to them. They timed their run well.

Squidgy Black

Well I was completely wrong, going into the knockout stages I thought France hadn't got anywhere near close to the level to win it and Australia were the clear favourites by a mile.

They must be absolutely devastated to miss out on it by that little a margin, given they've had probably their best u20 campaign in quite a long time, but it all comes down to the best performance on the pitch at a given time I suppose.

Buer

We've an incredible crop of locks coming through. Ryan, Baird, Ahern, Murray and Deeny (who didn't even make the squad) ...all deserving of academy deals.

I thought Turner had a fine tournament. Scrappy and intelligent. Probably not going to top level but can see him having a pro career. Our starting front row are all potential future test players. Each of them are excellent. Would have liked to have seen more of Ahern. Hopefully he gets a cap for Munster this season.

Casey is something of an engima. Wonderfully talented but his size kills him. He was physically dominated multiple times today. Led to turnovers and being caught in possession. The NZ try where the ref deemed the ball was out happened because we had no scrum half after he was manhandled at the previous ruck. I thought he was our best player in the 6N but I'm less convinced of his potential to be a senior international now.

All in all, an odd tournament. The results were poor but the promise is great. Really enthusiastic about Baird, Casey, Ryan, Clarkson, DTM, Hodnett and Wycherley without mentioning those who didn't travel due to injury. Solid pro careers at least ahead of most of those.

hype101

Heymans wrote: »

In your opinion. My methods require discipline from the player.

Nothing wrong with barking demands and getting the player to follow step.

Did you ever watch Ultimate Hell Week on RTE? Something similar.

Are you the bad-guy coach from the Karate Kid remake?

typhoony

watching Baird today I couldn't figure out is his real position, he plays like a lock, backrow, winger and centre all rolled into one. will be interesting to see what Leinster do with him. probably end up in the front row

Utopia Parkway

The U-20's probably didn't get their just rewards this tournament. Suffered a really bad run of injuries. Very likely could have beaten Australia only for the red card in that game and would have been in the semis. Fantastic strength in depth in the squad but no doubt they were running on fumes by the end.

Dubinusa

I was most impressed with Charlie Ryan. I think he really showed up all year, very consistent and a good leader. Turner and Wren look very capable also. Overall, the lads played some ballsy stuff. Mass injuries and some very poor luck.
Next year could be another good one. Several lads returning.

Digifriendly

If Eir Sport cease to exist or are subsumed under Premier Sport after Sky/BT Sport arrangement kicks in as some are suggesting, TV viewers will likely have to depend on ITV's poor coverage (only highlights for pool stages) for next year's u20's tournament. Fortunately Youtube had all matches streamed live this tournament although I couldn't get the final live for some reason.

Hands Like Flippers

Buer wrote: »

Casey is something of an engima. Wonderfully talented but his size kills him. He was physically dominated multiple times today. Led to turnovers and being caught in possession. The NZ try where the ref deemed the ball was out happened because we had no scrum half after he was manhandled at the previous ruck. I thought he was our best player in the 6N but I'm less convinced of his potential to be a senior international now.

I'm not as big a fan as some here although I've only seen him this year but not sure that's entirely fair in relation to his size. Plenty of 6 foot guys get man handled. Generally when a 9 gets caught its because he made a bad decision, eg a snipe where he gets isolated.

DonVito

He got scragged numerous times against the Baby Blacks and has gotten turned over a little too easy in the tournament.

His passing is just on another level though. I think he helped Healy & Flannery to look better then they actually are.

He's also got some electric footwork and tracks well.

He's in a good place in that there's very little legitimate long term competition across the provinces.

Buer

Hands Like Flippers wrote:

I'm not as big a fan as some here although I've only seen him this year but not sure that's entirely fair in relation to his size. Plenty of 6 foot guys get man handled. Generally when a 9 gets caught its because he made a bad decision, eg a snipe where he gets isolated.

He was getting caught and manhandled at the base. It wasn't a case of being turned over, more of not being able to shake off an opposition player when they got a hand on him which will happen in every game. It happened at least 4 or 5 times yesterday when he was hammered including the occasion it led to the second NZ try. A more physical 9 takes that and gets to ground to recycle or shakes off the player.

It's interesting how he's deployed in defence. Many modern scrumhalves are sweepers and play 5m behind the defensive line in phase play, plugging gaps, corner flagging and organising. Murray does it brilliantly. The Aussie 9, McDonald was very good at it. Casey is put out on the wing though which I assume is a tactic to limit his exposure.

I think his natural ability is excellent. The speed of his pass is a tad freakish and his running game is very strong too. But there are inherent issues in his game that will be hard to overcome.

I think he's the type of guy who is going to look world class when his pack give him clean ball on a conveyor belt but in a scrappy game where his pack is on the back foot, he'll struggle to influence the game.

Tim Robbins

Casey is a super passer. Surely the best 9 we have had at U20's for a few years?

Buer

Tim Robbins wrote:

Casey is a super passer. Surely the best 9 we have had at U20's for a few years?

I'd be surprised if there was a better passer we have ever had at U20 level. Stringer is the only one in his league, for me. At U20 level, McGrath was a terrible passer. Marmion was average at best. Conor Murray couldn't even get his game ahead of Matt Healy!

Shanahan was actually not too bad but that may be because he was replacing Luke McGrath who played passing roulette. Place your bets and see where the ball ends up.

Tim Robbins

Heymans wrote: »

Injuries or no injuries this is unacceptable.

Not sure if you are trolling but there are playing their 5th game of Rugby in three weeks.

DonVito

Niall Saunders was very impressive back in '16. But obviously health issues have set him back a lot.

baas baa

Buer wrote: »

I'd be surprised if there was a better passer we have ever had at U20 level. Stringer is the only one in his league, for me. At U20 level, McGrath was a terrible passer. Marmion was average at best. Conor Murray couldn't even get his game ahead of Matt Healy!

Shanahan was actually not too bad but that may be because he was replacing Luke McGrath who played passing roulette. Place your bets and see where the ball ends up.

Marmion had a very floaty pass which seemed to hang in the air for an age, still don't think he's entirely eradicated it from his game.

realhorrorshow

Nick McCarthy has quite a good pass IMO although I can’t specifically remember him at u20 level.

ClanofLams

Stephen Kerins had a very impressive World Cup in 16, iirc his passing was excellent and probably the best part of his game. Hasn’t broken through for Connacht yet but should get chances at the start of this season with Marmion away at World Cup.

The Lost Sheep

Didnt see game as working but while disappointing to finish 8th after the 6 nations still very good year

A grand slam, just 3 losses from 10 games in the year
2020 pools are:
France, Wales, NZ, Trophy Winner
Australia, England, Ireland, Fiji
Argentina, South Africa, Italy, Georgia

Dubinusa

Awfully tough group. But, teams change every year.
France have really come on these last 2 years. You would think the senior team will benefit.
It's a shame we finished so low after a cracking 6nations. But, that's were our depth is really lacking.

kingofthekong

Dubinusa wrote: »

Awfully tough group. But, teams change every year.
France have really come on these last 2 years. You would think the senior team will benefit.
It's a shame we finished so low after a cracking 6nations. But, that's were our depth is really lacking.

I dont think our depth was lacking, I think the opposite we were still able to compete with an injury raveged squad

No other country had even a fraction of the injuries we suffered

Also other countries can call up talented player who are still in School , we cant do that so as soon as a few injuries take place the standard can drop off fast

England and France regularly bring in extremely talented 18 year olds etc we cant do that unfortunatley

Buer

So Clarkson, Deeny, Ahern, Paddy Kelly, McCann, McKee, Milne and Moloney all to come back next season. That's a fairly solid crop. Potentially the bulk of a starting pack.

If this season taught us anything it's that there may be the need for a focus on defensive work or the presence of someone with good defensive acumen on the coaching staff. 155 points conceded in 5 games in the JWC and, in the Grand Slam campaign, we still conceded 92 points which is much better but it's also against sides like Scotland (who were relegated entirely from the JWC) and on poor pitches during winter.

I don't think there should be wholesale emphasis on defence as this level should be as much about cultivating confidence and encouraging players to be comfortable at a higher level. But there's items such as our back three defence which was consistently terrible from us.

Dubinusa

Defense was very poor last year too! It's strange cos I thought they'd have focused on that aspect of our game.

Heymans

kingofthekong wrote: »

I dont think our depth was lacking, I think the opposite we were still able to compete with an injury raveged squad

No other country had even a fraction of the injuries we suffered

Also other countries can call up talented player who are still in School , we cant do that so as soon as a few injuries take place the standard can drop off fast

England and France regularly bring in extremely talented 18 year olds etc we cant do that unfortunatley

You'd have to ask questions as to why there were so many injuries.

On looking at the team against Australia and New Zealand we really looked out on our feet.

Perhaps over training is the reason?

kingofthekong

Heymans wrote: »

You'd have to ask questions as to why there were so many injuries.

On looking at the team against Australia and New Zealand we really looked out on our feet.

Perhaps over training is the reason?

I wouldve said the six nations is hugely physical and really deplets the six nations teams players and often means the souther hemisphere teams are fresher by the time the JWC comes around

^ But having said that Ireland were the only team to really suffer that badly

Maybe overtraining, lack of physical maturity compared to other teams, not as good s&C or diet.

Could also just be bad luck but Ireland seem to get hit with a ton of injuries every year

ArmchairQB

kingofthekong wrote: »

I wouldve said the six nations is hugely physical and really deplets the six nations teams players and often means the souther hemisphere teams are fresher by the time the JWC comes around

^ But having said that Ireland were the only team to really suffer that badly

Maybe over training, lack of physical maturity compared to other teams, not as good s&C or diet.

Could also just be bad luck but Ireland seem to get hit with a ton of injuries every year

Pushing many to play senior to quickly and manufacturing size to quickly may be a reason for so many injuries. The difference in the size of some of these lads from leaving school to 6 nations & RWC can be staggering. Very few lads coming out of school are ready for 1a or indeed 1b AIL at a decent level. Manufacturing big men in the gym & with suppliments takes a toll on the body

kingofthekong

ArmchairQB wrote: »

Pushing many to play senior to quickly and manufacturing size to quickly may be a reason for so many injuries. The difference in the size of some of these lads from leaving school to 6 nations & RWC can be staggering. Very few lads coming out of school are ready for 1a or indeed 1b AIL at a decent level. Manufacturing big men in the gym & with suppliments takes a toll on the body

Many other countries would be doing similar gym programs, perhaps more gym then our lads

D14Rugby

It's just the nature of how the Irish system works that we get lots of injuries, everything about the system points to that happening. The Irish system also picks up injuries much quicker and is a lot more cautious than other countries so a lot of them aren't as big a deal as you'd think just seeing them on paper.

Also at development level injuries aren't actually the end of the world and sometimes can actually benefit the player just look at James Ryan or to borrow an example from this year's crop Ryan Baird, you could say injuries helped their development.

mogwai81

D14Rugby wrote: »

It's just the nature of how the Irish system works that we get lots of injuries, everything about the system points to that happening. The Irish system also picks up injuries much quicker and is a lot more cautious than other countries so a lot of them aren't as big a deal as you'd think just seeing them on paper.

Also at development level injuries aren't actually the end of the world and sometimes can actually benefit the player just look at James Ryan or to borrow an example from this year's crop Ryan Baird, you could say injuries helped their development.

Why do you think it is „the nature of the how the Irish system works that we get lots of injuries“? I’m not agreeing or disagreeing, just interested in your reasons.
My main issue with the Irish system is that while it does brilliantly to avoid the players being fatigued by usually not playing 4,5 or 6 games in a row. That system undermines us come World Cup time because the players rarely have to play continuously, compared to the Southern Hemisphere or some European teams.

D14Rugby

mogwai81 wrote: »

Why do you think it is „the nature of the how the Irish system works that we get lots of injuries“? I’m not agreeing or disagreeing, just interested in your reasons.
My main issue with the Irish system is that while it does brilliantly to avoid the players being fatigued by usually not playing 4,5 or 6 games in a row. That system undermines us come World Cup time because the players rarely have to play continuously, compared to the Southern Hemisphere or some European teams.

There's loads of reasons I'll probably miss a few.
- for majority of squad it's their first season playing mens rugby, be it a couple of games or a whole season that takes its toll on the body.
- its only the players first/second season in a near professional setup near full-time, compared to some other countries who are in them from 16 at least.
- most players still juggle playing rugby with work and/or education so they're not full-time like other countries.
- the 6 nations is very taxing on the body. High intensity games, close together against players that have been in pro set ups for years.
- the world cup is at the end of a long season that has basically been going for a whole year by the time it comes around.
- the current Irish coaching philosophy is very much add skill first size second just now you need a certain amount of size to start with but it's not the primary focus at 20s for most, which I completely agree with but it can cause some issues for those first few years out of school.


I've probably missed a few and articulated some badly but that's the general gist. I reckon if you looked at injury rate of first vs second year 20s that'd be interesting and probably back up a few of my points.

mogwai81

D14Rugby wrote: »

There's loads of reasons I'll probably miss a few.
- for majority of squad it's their first season playing mens rugby, be it a couple of games or a whole season that takes its toll on the body.
- its only the players first/second season in a near professional setup near full-time, compared to some other countries who are in them from 16 at least.
- most players still juggle playing rugby with work and/or education so they're not full-time like other countries.
- the 6 nations is very taxing on the body. High intensity games, close together against players that have been in pro set ups for years.
- the world cup is at the end of a long season that has basically been going for a whole year by the time it comes around.
- the current Irish coaching philosophy is very much add skill first size second just now you need a certain amount of size to start with but it's not the primary focus at 20s for most, which I completely agree with but it can cause some issues for those first few years out of school.


I've probably missed a few and articulated some badly but that's the general gist. I reckon if you looked at injury rate of first vs second year 20s that'd be interesting and probably back up a few of my points.

All your points seem logical. My issue regarding the Irish team above is related to the senior team and not the U20‘s, more suited to the Irish Team thread.

Tim Robbins

DonVito wrote: »

Niall Saunders was very impressive back in '16. But obviously health issues have set him back a lot.

Pat Patterson was super at school, didn't feature at 20's and is now rising at Leinster. His cousin, can't remember name was also super that year at schools, not sure what happened to him. But he was brilliant.

Lucas44

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Pat Patterson was super at school, didn't feature at 20's and is now rising at Leinster. His cousin, can't remember name was also super that year at schools, not sure what happened to him. But he was brilliant.

James Kenny was his name plays for lansodwne 20s and seconds, he wasn’t brilliant at school, he stood out on a very good gonzaga team in 2/3 games, got completely outclassed by Patterson in the Blackrock game, subsequently went on to be capped for Irish 19s due to stewart playing 20s and Patterson getting injured In the final

Chico Flores

Lucas44 wrote: »

James Kenny was his name plays for lansodwne 20s and seconds, he wasn’t brilliant at school, he stood out on a very good gonzaga team in 2/3 games, got completely outclassed by Patterson in the Blackrock game, subsequently went on to be capped for Irish 19s due to stewart playing 20s and Patterson getting injured In the final

It probably still is his name!! :cool:

Tim Robbins

Lucas44 wrote: »

James Kenny was his name plays for lansodwne 20s and seconds, he wasn’t brilliant at school, he stood out on a very good gonzaga team in 2/3 games, got completely outclassed by Patterson in the Blackrock game, subsequently went on to be capped for Irish 19s due to stewart playing 20s and Patterson getting injured In the final

That's mad. I reffed their seconds, didn't notice. They'd a super 10 they all called Doc because he's a Doctor. Pretty funny.