How to alert driver of presence?

Fian

Greybottle wrote: »

Anybody who uses this is at the level of a holigan or thug IMO. I'm saying this as a committed cyclist.

120db and up can cause injury, 130db+ causes damage.

Why the utter fcuk some cyclists seem to believe they are above the law and use these things I don't know. Using those things causes animosity in a wider circle of people, be it road users, pedestrians or residents of an area and just enforces the "Cyclists are tossers" mentality that a lot of us are trying to combat.

Car horns are limited to 110db in the EU, though some older models are at 115db. Try to respect the rules of the road instead of going out antagonising people.

OP: Correct procedure is to try to avoid the accident, so hitting the brakes is a first step, even though you are in the right.
Second step would be to tap on their window and ask them to take more care. I admit this is difficult when the adrenaline is up, but it's the only correct procedure (and I've been guilty of not adhering to it myself on more than one occasion).

My airzound sounds similar to a car horn, but it is definitely not quite as loud. which is not surprising since it is just a soft drinks bottle pumped up to 80 psi and released through the horn. It has been a valuable safety feature in dublin traffic. Not something to use to express irritation or when right behind a pedestrian though. TBH this is going to cause far less irritation than a car beeping at traffic, is unlikely to be used other than in an emergency and in fact cannot be used persistently since the air would run out if you blew it continuously for a few seconds.

I have a touch of hay fever and let out a sneeze earlier this week which was definitely louder than the airzound. I did startle a cyclist in front of me with that sneeze, for which i apolgised.

bmc58

comanche_cor wrote: »

So yesterday on my commute home I had a driver veer into a dedicated cycle lane (solid white line) as I was on their inside. I tapped the rear panel of their car gently with my knuckles as I slowed down and they moved back out of the lane.

As I passed I got a beep of the horn and when stopped at the traffic lights we were approaching the driver got out of the car to confront me and ask me "what the hell I was doing" and to tell me that "there better on be any scratches on his car"

Seems like my actions lit this driver up like a roman candle! https://b-static.net/vbulletin/images/smilies/eek.png

So when I got home I started to thing about this a bit more. Although my actions kept me safe (and prevented the driver from having a bigger scrape and a large insurance claim) perhaps I could have handled the situation better. I don't think my actions did me any favours apart from creating another pissed off driver.

So how could I have handled this situation better, just slammed on the brakes and done nothing? How do others alter drivers of their presence!?

(btw when out of the car the driver had the phone in their hand - so I think we all know what was going on, unfortunately I wasn't quick enough to point that out)

Why did you not just slow down and let this idiot off.Why did you need to "tap" his car.This is only looking for trouble.As for the phone you are only assuming he was on it at the time he came into your lane.Sometimes it's just best to let things go to avoid confrontation.Confrontation can be dangerous nowdays in todays violent society.

Taxuser1

bmc58 wrote: »

Why did you not just slow down and let this idiot off.Why did you need to "tap" his car.This is only looking for trouble.As for the phone you are only assuming he was on it at the time he came into your lane.Sometimes it's just best to let things go to avoid confrontation.Confrontation can be dangerous nowdays in todays violent society.

because sometimes other people are just wrong and need to be held to account.

Sometimes you need to stand up for what you think is right and defend your rights and not be afraid of the consequences.

Borderfox

The one where I knocked on the window was coming up behind and on top of me, no way to slow down. If someone wants to leave the safety of their car and come over and start threatening me they better have the courage of their convictions

bmc58

Taxuser1 wrote: »

because sometimes other people are just wrong and need to be held to account.

Sometimes you need to stand up for what you think is right and defend your rights and not be afraid of the consequences.

Sorry my friend I do not agree.Sometimes you just have to let stupid idiotic things go that people do.As a CAR driver for nearly 40 years(no convictions,pen points) if I was to jump out of the car and stand up for my rights when someone does something stupid on the road,I would hardly never be in my car.A small beep of the horn is enough as drivers know when they have overstepped the mark.If you go around with the attitude of standing up for your rights all the time you will end up with a very high blood pressure reading.

AndrewJRenko

average_runner wrote: »

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Amazing how Invisible someone on a bicycle can be to a driver, even in the best of Hi-Vis, yet everyone on a bicycle who may proceed past a red light is visible to every single motorist out there!! :eek:

That's because there is a blind spot on cars

The blind spot on the car is the driver's issue to manage. You don't get to outsource the danger arising from your dodgy equipment on the rest of the population.

average_runner

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The blind spot on the car is the driver's issue to manage. You don't get to outsource the danger arising from your dodgy equipment on the rest of the population.

You can put that on your tombstone !

magicbastarder

bmc58 wrote: »

Sorry my friend I do not agree.Sometimes you just have to let stupid idiotic things go that people do.As a CAR driver for nearly 40 years(no convictions,pen points) if I was to jump out of the car and stand up for my rights when someone does something stupid on the road,I would hardly never be in my car.A small beep of the horn is enough as drivers know when they have overstepped the mark.If you go around with the attitude of standing up for your rights all the time you will end up with a very high blood pressure reading.

you should try cycling. telling us your experience as a car driver does little to help cyclists when they find themselves in similar situations. especially when your line of defence - the car horn - is not available to us.
(speaking as a car driver with 24 years experience, no convictions or penalty points).

Wishbone Ash

bmc58 wrote: »

.....As a CAR driver for nearly 40 years(no convictions,pen points) if I was to jump out of the car and stand up for my rights when someone does something stupid on the road,I would hardly never be in my car.A small beep of the horn is enough.....

There's a huge difference between being the victim of a 'small' transgression when driving a car compared to cycling. When I'm driving, I let almost everything go (much to the annoyance of my wife) as it's highly unlikely to cause me any injury. Totally different on the bike though.

Sleeper12

I'd rather you hammer on my van even if you dent it than me injuring you. It's a no brainer

Driver was being a dick.

bmc58

Borderfox wrote: »

The one where I knocked on the window was coming up behind and on top of me, no way to slow down. If someone wants to leave the safety of their car and come over and start threatening me they better have the courage of their convictions

My point exactly.Agression and a fight or worse to sort out even the slightest of incidents is what we in ireland are witnessing today.

bmc58

magicbastarder wrote: »

you should try cycling. telling us your experience as a car driver does little to help cyclists when they find themselves in similar situations. especially when your line of defence - the car horn - is not available to us.
(speaking as a car driver with 24 years experience, no convictions or penalty points).

Can't cycle.I'm a Disabled Driver..ha,ha.

bmc58

magicbastarder wrote: »

you should try cycling. telling us your experience as a car driver does little to help cyclists when they find themselves in similar situations. especially when your line of defence - the car horn - is not available to us.
(speaking as a car driver with 24 years experience, no convictions or penalty points).

As a moderator on Boards you should not be so quick to judge people.Not everyone who drives is able to cycle.Once again i say,people need to calm down a bit.

Wishbone Ash

bmc58 wrote: »

As a moderator on Boards you should not be so quick to judge people.Not everyone who drives is able to cycle.Once again i say,people need to calm down a bit.

In fairness to magicbastarder, you did say....

bmc58 wrote: »

... if I was to jump out of the car and stand up for my rights.....

magicbastarder

I'm not sure where I'm guilty of any judgment to be fair.

bmc58

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

In fairness to magicbastarder, you did say....

Well ok,I could have said it better.But being disabled I can still get out of and in to my car .Maybe "jump" was not the right word as I walk with the use of crutches.I'll give you that one.

bmc58

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

In fairness to magicbastarder, you did say....

But my point still stands.People in cars and on bikes have become so agressive to each other.We all need to calm down and if there's bad behaviour from either group there's no need for punching or kicking each other .

AndrewJRenko

bmc58 wrote: »

If you go around with the attitude of standing up for your rights all the time you will end up with a very high blood pressure reading.

Quite the opposite - being assertive is generally quite relaxing, cathartic and maybe even life-affirming. There is generally no aggression or swearing involved - just one adult talking to another adult. Maybe it's the advantage of being on the bike, that you don't need to 'jump out' to have a chat. You'll usually catch up with the driver at the next lights, so it's not hard to ask them to give you more room or put their phone down or whatever.

average_runner wrote: »

You can put that on your tombstone !

Why don't you put it on Rose Hoey's tombstone? Are you really happy to take dangerous, life-threatening equipment out on the road and blame others for it's poor design?

ted1

bmc58 wrote: »

magicbastarder wrote: »

you should try cycling. telling us your experience as a car driver does little to help cyclists when they find themselves in similar situations. especially when your line of defence - the car horn - is not available to us.
(speaking as a car driver with 24 years experience, no convictions or penalty points).

Can't cycle.I'm a Disabled Driver..ha,ha.

Plenty of disabled cyclists.

average_runner

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Quite the opposite - being assertive is generally quite relaxing, cathartic and maybe even life-affirming. There is generally no aggression or swearing involved - just one adult talking to another adult. Maybe it's the advantage of being on the bike, that you don't need to 'jump out' to have a chat. You'll usually catch up with the driver at the next lights, so it's not hard to ask them to give you more room or put their phone down or whatever.



Why don't you put it on Rose Hoey's tombstone? Are you really happy to take dangerous, life-threatening equipment out on the road and blame others for it's poor design?

Accidents will happen, we are humans. Unless you never broke a rule on the road. Very sorry about Rose, but there were two wrongs in that accident, the trucks lights and not crossing the road at the pedestrian lights.


We need all to be aware of the blind spots.

AndrewJRenko

average_runner wrote: »

Accidents will happen, we are humans. Unless you never broke a rule on the road. Very sorry about Rose, but there were two wrongs in that accident, the trucks lights and not crossing the road at the pedestrian lights.


We need all to be aware of the blind spots.

There are no pedestrian lights. She was crossing a cul-de-sac side road joining a main road when she crushed by a reversing driver with no reversing alarm on his truck. But you want to blame the victim, right?

https://goo.gl/maps/1wBtJ82LT2J2

They're not 'accidents'. The Gardai don't call them accidents. The RSA don't call them accidents. The whole 'accident' terminology was a masterstroke PR campaign from the motor industry in the 1930s USA to get drivers off the hook for killing people, and it has stuck ever since.

https://www.crashnotaccident.com/

They are collisions, not crashes. They are not inevitable. Any HGV operator sending drivers out on the road, knowing that they have blind spots and not fitting enough special mirrors, or cameras or providing extra crew on watch has blood on their hands.

Lumen

If a car is alongside you and moving into your space, and you have nowhere laterally to move, the most sensible course of action is to brake.

Since you can brake easily at 6m.s-2, within one second you are 3m further back, i.e. behind the car, more or less.

Aside from anything else, if you're possibly about to have a crash it is usually better to have it going more slowly, and so if you're 1 second away from a crash you should use that second to reduce your speed differential with the ground.

Of course, humans are not sensible.

average_runner

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

There are no pedestrian lights. She was crossing a cul-de-sac side road joining a main road when she crushed by a reversing driver with no reversing alarm on his truck. But you want to blame the victim, right?

https://goo.gl/maps/1wBtJ82LT2J2

They're not 'accidents'. The Gardai don't call them accidents. The RSA don't call them accidents. The whole 'accident' terminology was a masterstroke PR campaign from the motor industry in the 1930s USA to get drivers off the hook for killing people, and it has stuck ever since.

https://www.crashnotaccident.com/

They are collisions, not crashes. They are not inevitable. Any HGV operator sending drivers out on the road, knowing that they have blind spots and not fitting enough special mirrors, or cameras or providing extra crew on watch has blood on their hands.

Maybe take it up with the government. Truck drivers attend a course each year and the blind spots are highlighted to them. Until the law changes we need to be smart and safe.

AndrewJRenko

average_runner wrote: »

Maybe take it up with the government. Truck drivers attend a course each year and the blind spots are highlighted to them. Until the law changes we need to be smart and safe.

It doesn't require the law to change. It just requires people to stop victim blaming and start actually blaming those who are actually responsible - the HGV operators who send out drivers with dangerous equipment and no plan to address the risk arising.

Effects

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Totally illegal. You don't even have to be on a call for it to be illegal.

ted1 wrote: »

I'm certain

That can't be the case. 7 out of 8 drivers use their phone like the image below.
I mean if that was as illegal as someone holding the phone to their ear then why would they be doing it?

AndrewJRenko

Effects wrote: »

That can't be the case. 7 out of 8 drivers use their phone like the image below.

Four out of five drivers break speed limits. It's illegal, but they still do it.

yesto24

Bull****.
Everything has blindspots. Trucks, cars, cyclists and pedestrians.
It is up to all users to be aware of blind spots and not to put themselves into one.
Mirrors and cameras are good but can fail or be broken.
Putting yourself in a blind spot is just stupid.

ted1

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Effects wrote: »

That can't be the case. 7 out of 8 drivers use their phone like the image below.

Four out of five drivers break speed limits. It's illegal, but they still do it.

Don’t feed the trolls

average_runner

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It doesn't require the law to change. It just requires people to stop victim blaming and start actually blaming those who are actually responsible - the HGV operators who send out drivers with dangerous equipment and no plan to address the risk arising.

They have passed all the quality tests safety tests .

Effects

ted1 wrote: »

Don’t feed the trolls

You got me.

I just don't get the spas who think holding your phone in front of you while using speaker phone is any different than having a phone up to your ear.

AndrewJRenko

yesto24 wrote: »

Bull****.
Everything has blindspots. Trucks, cars, cyclists and pedestrians.
It is up to all users to be aware of blind spots and not to put themselves into one.
Mirrors and cameras are good but can fail or be broken.
Putting yourself in a blind spot is just stupid.

So you're blaming 85 year old Rose Hoey for getting run down by a reversing truck?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/coroner-s-court/reverse-lights-broken-on-truck-which-killed-ranelagh-pedestrian-1.2567865

AndrewJRenko

average_runner wrote: »

They have passed all the quality tests safety tests .

Did they pass the test of Section 8 of the 2005 Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act requires employers to ensure that machinery is designed, provided and maintained so as to be safe and without risk to health. Was the machinery covered by a risk assessment in accordance with section 19 of that Act.

Wildly Boaring

To the OP I'd fully agree with your actions.

A rap or open hand smack on a roof is fair game in my opinion if a vehicle is closing you into the kerb and putting you in danger.

You will not damage their car or paintwork once you've no ring on. If captain oblivious is that oblivious he needs to be alerted to it.

People awful protective of their vehicles and talk about all the things they'd do if a cyclist dare touch their property. Bull****. They have no moral compass? They have no problem with injuring a cyclist through carelessness or ineptitude? A tin box will not be damaged by a wrap or a slap. And no driver is actually gonna attack a cyclist for not damaging his car. He'll shout and maybe whinge and go very red in the face and tell all.his mates what a big tough guy he is.

I would however never bother getting into an argument. No one who opens a window or gets out of a vehicle or opposingly pulls up on a bike ; is looking for a constructive discussion. They are looking to be right. All a bit pointless really.

If a driver closed in close enough that I could rap on their car and then jumped out for a row I would shrug and be on my way.

Speaking as a CAR driver, VAN driver, HGV driver, TRACTOR driver, EXCAVATOR driver, cyclist, MOXY driver, JCB driver.........

yesto24

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So you're blaming 85 year old Rose Hoey for getting run down by a reversing truck?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/coroner-s-court/reverse-lights-broken-on-truck-which-killed-ranelagh-pedestrian-1.2567865

I don't know.
I don't know all the details of that case.
But it is possible she was responsible.
The point of my comment was that we all have to be aware of blind spots.
I drive a small van and have big blind spots I wish everyone else was aware of them.
Just today I had a fool of a motorcyclist hang in my blindspots. Lucky for him I saw him before when he was further back behind me.
But if I had moved lanes I would have taken him out, and why would I have moved lane? Because he was overtaking on my left.
So to repeat all road users need to know about blindspots and all users should avoid being in one.

Wishbone Ash

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

......- the HGV operators who send out drivers with dangerous equipment and no plan to address the risk arising.

The operator may not have been aware of the defects, and, in fairness, would have no way of knowing unless it is reported to them. Every HGV driver is required to do routine daily checks on any vehicle assigned to them and to report any irregularities to their employer.

TheBeach

I didn't read all the thread. If someone knocked on my car I would definately get a fright. I think a bell would be good /less aggressive.

magicbastarder

and pretty much inaudible to a driver. to the point of being irrelevant.

07Lapierre

TheBeach wrote: »

I didn't read all the thread. If someone knocked on my car I would definately get a fright. I think a bell would be good /less aggressive.

Maybe you should read the whole thread?

Effects

TheBeach wrote: »

I didn't read all the thread. If someone knocked on my car I would definately get a fright. I think a bell would be good /less aggressive.

A driver won't hear your bell. Now it's too late and you've been knocked down.

railer201

An effective air horn is the way to go - cyclists need to be more proactive in warning car/truck/bus drivers. With a horn a developing incident can be headed off 50 metres or so before it happens.

ATM cyclists effectively cannot be heard, especially by drivers of large vehicles - a situation worth remediation in a proactive manner.

tomasrojo

I cycled for many years without a bell or a horn, so I don't really think either is necessary. If you're incapable of shouting, I suppose an air horn, though illegal, might be a good idea. A bell is useful for a gentle to a modestly strident warning if you think a pedestrian or other cyclist is about to do something that one of you will regret, which is quite a common scenario. Despite my long-standing bell scepticism, I ended up with one, as the Dutch bike I bought came with a bell, and I actually did end up finding it quite useful; useful enough that I put bells on my other bikes.

Thud

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

To the OP I'd fully agree with your actions.

A rap or open hand smack on a roof is fair game in my opinion if a vehicle is closing you into the kerb and putting you in danger.

You will not damage their car or paintwork once you've no ring on. If captain oblivious is that oblivious he needs to be alerted to it.

People awful protective of their vehicles and talk about all the things they'd do if a cyclist dare touch their property. Bull****. They have no moral compass? They have no problem with injuring a cyclist through carelessness or ineptitude? A tin box will not be damaged by a wrap or a slap. And no driver is actually gonna attack a cyclist for not damaging his car. He'll shout and maybe whinge and go very red in the face and tell all.his mates what a big tough guy he is.

I would however never bother getting into an argument. No one who opens a window or gets out of a vehicle or opposingly pulls up on a bike ; is looking for a constructive discussion. They are looking to be right. All a bit pointless really.

If a driver closed in close enough that I could rap on their car and then jumped out for a row I would shrug and be on my way.

Speaking as a CAR driver, VAN driver, HGV driver, TRACTOR driver, EXCAVATOR driver, cyclist, MOXY driver, JCB driver.........

Had a guy start ranting at me out his window after i banged on his car when he encroached on a cycle lane i was in while he was trying to pass a car (on the left) that was turning right in his lane, asked him if he wanted to get out of his car to sort it out, he muttered and drove on pretty quickly after that

tomasrojo

It isn't quite true that bells can't be heard inside cars either. If the driver is playing loud music or driving fast, there's no chance, but there are quite a lot of scenarios where cars are, say, lane drifiting in slow-moving traffic, where the driver can hear distinctive noises, even with the windows closed.

tomasrojo

Thud wrote: »

Had a guy start ranting at me out his window after i banged on his car when he encroached on a cycle lane i was in while he was trying to pass a car (on the left) that was turning right in his lane

It probably wasn't possible in your case, but I'd recommend manoeuvring out of the cycle lane when you see the right-turning car to block the approach of following cars rather than reacting when they do the passing-on-the-inside manoeuvre.

magicbastarder

speaking of being able to hear things, it's notable how much difference an open window makes to sorting out 'differences' with motorists.

Thud

tomasrojo wrote: »

It probably wasn't possible in your case, but I'd recommend manoeuvring out of the cycle lane when you see the right-turning car to block the approach of following cars rather than reacting when they do the passing-on-the-inside manoeuvre.

There was traffic about 200m up the road so didn't think anyone would go up the left and the space was barely a car width...logic didn't apply there though

Johnnio13

TheBeach wrote: »

I didn't read all the thread. If someone knocked on my car I would definately get a fright. I think a bell would be good /less aggressive.

I had an incident recently, travelling along the Thomas Hynes road towards the west wood hotel in Galway. Lights were red. They stay red for some time. There was 5 cars at the light. To the right of the cars is a short cycle lane to bikes turning right and going straight. And outside that again is another stopping box for cars going right.
As I cycled up behind cars at lights I signaled to move to cycle lane, a d£$khead tried to overtake me and then force himself back into the lane of stationary cars going left. i BASHED the window as there was no where for me to go but under the left wheel of his car or over the kerb. He rolled down the window shouting abuse about banging on his window. I told him to look at his surroundings. Trying to overtake me moving into stationary traffic after I signaled. His response. "Touch my car again and I'll kill you and why aren't you in the cycle lane". Waste of time trying to explain all the things he was doing wrong . At that point I just told him to cop the fu£k on and moved over to the cycle lane.
Generally drivers on that stretch are accommodating because the road is so wide. Banging on windows for me has had mixed results.

07Lapierre

Lumen wrote: »

If a car is alongside you and moving into your space, and you have nowhere laterally to move, the most sensible course of action is to brake.

Since you can brake easily at 6m.s-2, within one second you are 3m further back, i.e. behind the car, more or less.

Aside from anything else, if you're possibly about to have a crash it is usually better to have it going more slowly, and so if you're 1 second away from a crash you should use that second to reduce your speed differential with the ground.

Of course, humans are not sensible.

Its the More or less bit thats the problem.. some cars pull in when the front bumper is right at your feet, leaving a lot of the car still behind. your also assuming its a car and not a van, a car with a trailer, a Bus or a HGV which are all significantly longer than 3m.

Diemos

Lumen wrote: »

If a car is alongside you and moving into your space, and you have nowhere laterally to move, the most sensible course of action is to brake.

Since you can brake easily at 6m.s-2, within one second you are 3m further back, i.e. behind the car, more or less.

Aside from anything else, if you're possibly about to have a crash it is usually better to have it going more slowly, and so if you're 1 second away from a crash you should use that second to reduce your speed differential with the ground.

Of course, humans are not sensible.

That's a fair point, but the reaction can be instinct.

If you are cycling along in the cycle lane, and a vehicle comes from behind and starts pushing in on you, these situations tend to play out in milliseconds.

Having the time for deductive reasoning is a luxury you may not have.

Plus tell me about braking when a wing mirror hits your elbow as a car pushes past in rush hour traffic while using the bus lane to try to jump traffic.:mad:

Johnny Jukebox

Thud wrote: »

Had a guy start ranting at me out his window after i banged on his car when he encroached on a cycle lane i was in while he was trying to pass a car (on the left) that was turning right in his lane, asked him if he wanted to get out of his car to sort it out, he muttered and drove on pretty quickly after that

This. I think if you bang windows, you have to be prepared to go toe-to-toe with the driver because the reaction is hysterically OTT in most cases...