Brexit discussion thread IV

McGiver

Hard Brexit it is. If this is representative of an average Joe in England, which I think it is, then good luck and God speed.
https://www.facebook.com/irishtv/videos/10157472242718452

Leroy42

I have to say, I really can't see the version of the white paper as per Preston getting anyway in the UK never mind the EU.

It really is the worst of all worlds. They end up having to follow a whole load of laws and regulations but now they have no say in them.

Whatever version of the CU/SM they actually bring up it can't, almost be definition, be as good as the one they have now.

They will be severely limited in what foreign trade deals they can actually do given their need to regulate for EU.

So not really taking back control. Not really getting control of the laws. Probably still end up paying large amounts of money to retain access (for less return).

Jebus, if May thinks a hard Brexit is bad why not come out and say it and aim to stay in. If she believes in a hard brexit well do that then. This is a mess and a disaster.

Capt'n Midnight

EdgeCase wrote: »

Well, they forget that :

1. They are still in the EU
2. GBP has fallen in value, giving them a temporary boost.
3. Brexit has yet to happen and most of the markets seem to still believe it probably won't.

You cannot conclude anything from the current economic conditions.

You can.

The economy is 2.1% smaller than you'd expect. The high street is being decimated. More people are eating into their savings.


https://www.cer.eu/insights/whats-cost-brexit-so-far

New analysis by the CER – which we will update quarterly – estimates that the UK economy is 2.1 per cent smaller as a result of the vote to leave the EU. The knock-on hit to the public finances is now £23 billion per annum – or £440 million a week.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-44523513
* Note the UK has kinda commited to matching the £3Bn per year the farmers get, so realistically only £2Bn more in total by 2023 and that's before you count items like the £5Bn to replace the EU GPS system

After this the UK might start seeing more of the £8Bn that goes to the EU, but they will have to fund lots of agencies and borders and stuff from that. And they will get less ESA contracts for space stuff.

There's been a reduction in investment by companies too, stuff that won't affect day to day business but will cause trouble further down the road.

An Ciarraioch

Meanwhile, a debate has started across the water as to whether progress for England at the World Cup would be seized upon by Brexiteers, and how it can be reclaimed by Remainers. In truth, the article comes across as virtue signalling, but worth a read while waiting for the match to liven up:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/03/england-team-48-remain-players-brexit

BonnieSituation

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

So you agree that partition was a choice, good.

It absolutely wasn't a "choice". How you could be so glib about it is beyond me.

KingNerolives

Is any industry not going to crap after brexit?

Trasna1

KingNerolives wrote: »

Is any industry not going to crap after brexit?

Legal

flutered

Imreoir2 wrote: »

I think it might have been envisaged by Mogg and his fellow travelers.

to me the new tax laws coming into force next april/may, is the real reason behind mogg and companys no deal brexit

listermint

flutered wrote: »

to me the new tax laws coming into force next april/may, is the real reason behind mogg and companys no deal brexit

They'll mean nothing with no access to the financial services market of your nearest neighbours.

Jaggo

Trasna1 wrote: »

Legal

Actually that will get hit too. A lot of the inter european financial contracts (pensions, insurance) are written in London but require eu law to enforce them.

Post brexit, you won't have a financial contract between a French firm and a German bank enforced by a London common law court.

It is actually quite a big business.

BonnieSituation

flutered wrote: »

to me the new tax laws coming into force next april/may, is the real reason behind mogg and companys no deal brexit

What's all this then?

listermint

BonnieSituation wrote: »

What's all this then?

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/company-tax/anti-tax-avoidance-package/anti-tax-avoidance-directive_en


Tax enforcement directive

Lemming

Trasna1 wrote: »

Legal

Jaggo wrote: »

Actually that will get hit too. A lot of the inter european financial contracts (pensions, insurance) are written in London but require eu law to enforce them.

Post brexit, you won't have a financial contract between a French firm and a German bank enforced by a London common law court.

It is actually quite a big business.

Parts of the legal sector are going to get decimated Trasna1; facing 100% non-tariff barriers overnight into the EU. If you search the previous incarnations of this thread you will find some excellent posts by ambro25, who has outlined the issues facing the UK legal sector, the UK government's pitiful attempts at engagement with the legal sector to understand the issues, and the fallout that is already occurring in lost business to other destinations in the EU, less investment into patent registry, startup business ventures, etc.

CelticRambler

McGiver wrote: »

Hard Brexit it is. If this is representative of an average Joe in England, which I think it is, then good luck and God speed.
https://www.facebook.com/irishtv/videos/10157472242718452

That
is
just



Alas, it does seem to be entirely typical of the current administration's attitude: everyone else is causing problems for England, and it's just not cricket. One would hope that there's a better level of intellect meeting in Chequers, but seeing as that nutcase's suggestion of mirochipping every Republic of Ireland resident (if they don't agree to quit the EU and re-unite with Britain) is not a million miles away from IDS's comment about using mobile phones to track cross-border freight ... well,

johnnyskeleton

Trasna1 wrote: »

Legal

If only there was another small english speaking common law system in the European Union that could take up the business of the UK Commercial Contracts industry

An Ciarraioch

Tusk speaks out on the Border:

https://www.rte.ie/amp/976075/?__twitter_impression=true

Anthracite

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Robert Peston has seen leaked elements of the White Paper, and it would appear to be the worst of all worlds, combining the customs partnership plan to collect taxes on behalf of the EU, with max fac smart technology at the Border. All in all, hard to see Brussels being remotely impressed.

https://m.facebook.com/1498276767163730/posts/2093159307675470/

You're walking down a dark alley and a couple of guys spring out on you. "We're going to beat you up!" says one. "Or we're going to rob you!" says the other.

You let these guys know that you don't like either of those ideas, so they go into a huddle for a minute and come back to you. "Ok, we can see why those plans didn't really appeal to you", they say. "We have a new idea!" You let out a sigh of relief. "How about we beat you up and rob you?"

ambro25

Trasna1 wrote: »

KingNerolives wrote: »

Is any industry not going to crap after brexit?

Legal

So insulated, that I resigned my legal firm directorship, sold up and moved to the continent this past February, when the U.K. firm I was working at decided to expand domestically instead of opening an EU27 subsidiary

Last I heard, since February 2018 they’re down 3 more bodies (1 attorney, 2 support) and at least 25% on figures YTD.

Much of the U.K. legal industry doesn’t interface with, or actually practice, EU and international law. In my niche sector (IP), that’s our daily bread and butter, so forecasting outcomes from the various flavours of Brexit has never been a problem at all: they’re effectively all flowcharted already in existing domestic and supranational statutes (in the same way Barnier’s stairs are arrived at).

Most of these ‘domestic’ Brit legal types, certainly the vast majority of those I spoke to since the referendum was announced in February 2016, still completely fail to appreciate the cumulative jurisdictional qualifiers (EU or EEA-obtained qualification and EU or EEA domiciliation) attaching to the recognition of professional qualifications for practice across the EU.

And don’t even mention their ‘understanding’ of non-tariff barriers applied to services and the irrelevance of WTO rules to them. They’re common law legal types who, accordingly, believe everything can be fudged.

All those Brit solicitors who’ve been busy enrolling in the Irish Roll are in for a rude awakening in case the recognition issue is not addressed (negotiated + ratified) in good time: enrolment on the Irish Roll does not magically turn your U.K. quals into Irish quals, it’s just a U.K.-RoI recognition mechanism (indeed) and, even if it did, that counts for sod all unless you’re also practicing from the RoI post-Brexit.

BonnieSituation

listermint wrote: »

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/company-tax/anti-tax-avoidance-package/anti-tax-avoidance-directive_en


Tax enforcement directive

Danke.

Didn't realise this was on the cards already.

Igotadose

McGiver wrote: »

Hard Brexit it is. If this is representative of an average Joe in England, which I think it is, then good luck and God speed.
https://www.facebook.com/irishtv/videos/10157472242718452

Never call in to talk radio or TV unless you're good with being humiliated, that's what those guys do best.

That said, the caller's a complete eejit and the 'ideas' are madness. Force a referendum (that has to agree on reunification) or get microchipped. Microchipped...

And he thought his call-in on a scale of 1-10 was a 7.

UK really is turning into the US. Everyone full of their own native brilliance and entitled to share their god-like opinions with us all, which we should agree with aren't we just awed by their brilliance?

EdgeCase

@Ambro25

I think you hit the nail on the head with "common law types". The English legal and political system is, by nature, far "woolier", not being a based around code, but rather on precedent and interpretation of precedents. It's full of fudge and open to a lot of interpretation and reinterpretation.

The EU is based around highly codified treaty law and continental countries use civil code based legal systems. Ireland (common law) and the Nordic countries are outliers. Nordic law is a modification of civil law. Like our system it uses a lot of case law / precedent. You could argue that Ireland is becoming more like that model too with increasing codification, especially in criminal law and it also sits on top of a written constitution. We are a common law jurisdiction with aspects of codification. They're civil law jurisdictions, with aspects that look like common law. So maybe we might eventually meet in the middle.

The English approach can be a bit like reading the tea leaves. There's always room for reinterpretation, loop holes, bizzare fudges and so on. Even their Constitution is largely just cobbled together ancient documents and precedent.

As such they place a huge emphasis on "because this is the way things are done, we can do them." That's not how civil law works. It's a logical and transparent code and is embedded in text. Ireland has some understanding of this due to our own fairly codified approach to constitutional law. You can't just bend the rules and tradition and precedent doesn't mean much where it's unconstitutional.

The English system, compared to US federal law and many other systems they have their roots in English common law, is far less codified, especially at high level. Most other common law systems seem to have adopted a lot more codification.

You've even still got a lot of ambiguity about things like how the UK is actually structured and governed. Most things are based in legislation but some are more embedded in legal traditions, precedent and so on.

I think the UK is about to get a very painful lesson in the difference between legal code and common law. Article 50 and the Treaty of Lisbon are very, very simple examples of legal code. There's nothing fluffy about them at all.

I know that continental systems all display some degree of elements that look a bit like common law too - precedence etc being referred to, but at the core of it is a huge difference in legal and political traditions, at a very basic level.

I'm not saying Common Law is bad or that Civil Code is bad. Both approaches have their positive band negative features. All I'm saying is that English Law and politics & EU Treaty Law are two very different beasts.

CelticRambler

Igotadose wrote: »

Never call in to talk radio or TV unless you're good with being humiliated, that's what those guys do best.

That said, the caller's a complete eejit and the 'ideas' are madness. Force a referendum (that has to agree on reunification) or get microchipped. Microchipped...

I was dying for the host (one of the few to seriously challenge his interviewees on their irrational lines of thought, unlike the enablers on Sky/BBC) to ask yer man if he'd be happy to be microchipped too, so that the British could tracked when they crossed the NI-RoI border.


Regardless of the stupidity of the idea (not to mention the fact that it wouldn't help in the least to limit the traffic in Chinese or American crap) it is an example of how the Little Englander mentality sees "sovereignty" as a purely British right, and simply cannot understand how another state might want to define its own identity and live by different rules.

Sam Russell

CelticRambler wrote: »

I was dying for the host (one of the few to seriously challenge his interviewees on their irrational lines of thought, unlike the enablers on Sky/BBC) to ask yer man if he'd be happy to be microchipped too, so that the British could tracked when they crossed the NI-RoI border.


Regardless of the stupidity of the idea (not to mention the fact that it wouldn't help in the least to limit the traffic in Chinese or American crap) it is an example of how the Little Englander mentality sees "sovereignty" as a purely British right, and simply cannot understand how another state might want to define its own identity and live by different rules.

I was amused to hear Rees Mog outlining why he would oppose a universal ID system for English people. [I am not sure whether he would approve it for non-English people].

"An Englishman should not have to explain what he does when he does what he does!".

Brilliant in summing up his arrogance, God given superiority, and utter disdain for 'others'.

I think that is a more sophisticated way of saying xenophobic racist.

Leroy42

And I think that is where the UK is really going to come unstuck after Brexit (regardless of how it ends up). They seem to be under the illusion that all these other countries will do almost anything to get a trade deal with the UK. The UK will set the regulation, the tariffs, it will be their courts that legislate.

But apart from the smallest nations, few of any actual worth in trade terms, will simply accept the UK rules and regulations. And they will certainly be looking for something in return (ie India has already said it wants more open immigration to the UK).

EdgeCase

The other aspect is a lot of countries have post colonial memories of Britian that it tends to not understand or realise exist. India is a prime example of this. The English think that India will welcome the old oppressor back with open arms, like an old friend. Many Indians would prefer to point out that India is now a global power and economic force to be reckoned with.

Also their relationship with China is both steeped in negative history. The UK did basically attack and seize parts of China to force it to accept British opium exports ... and then there’s the whole issue with the UK being hostile towards Chinese ambitions in the South China Sea. Even if you don’t agree with Chinese policy on that, the UK will be in no position to attempt to negotiate trade deals with a huge economic power like China while simultaneously trying to lay down the law on against its territorial expansion.

I think the UK has a future of being relatively poorer and being bounced around by big powers : US, EU and China.

It'll go from being part of a major trade rule maker, to being a rule taker that has to balance political influence, military objectives and so on against economic interests all the time in a way that it hasn’t had to do almost ever before. It’s setting foot into the world as a medium sized county without an empire or the EU.

You’ve also got magical thinking going on in the assumption that British business will even be able to take up these supposed post Brexit opportunities. Their market access, supply chains, possibly access to credit lines and all sorts of regulatory and environmental issues are being turned upside down and things are being ripped pot from under them, yet somehow there supposed to just prosper and take chunks of already established markets?

What is to say they’re even able to do that?
Many businesses simply won’t be able to and will just flounder.

It’s reminding me of the logic of the clearance of the glens in Scotland where a bunch of upper class morons sent Scottish tenant farmers to the coasts, clearing the land for sheep and expected them to somehow to make a living as fishermen - they died or emigrated.

High level ideological politics dictating how companies operate is a recipe for disaster.

Silent Running

EdgeCase wrote: »

The other aspect is a lot of countries have post colonial memories of Britian that it tends to not understand or realise exist. India is a prime example of this. The English think that India will welcome the old oppressor back with open arms, like an old friend. Many Indians would prefer to point out that India is now a global power and economic force to be reckoned with.

Also their relationship with China is both steeped in negative history. The UK did basically attack and seize parts of China to force it to accept British opium exports ... and then there’s the whole issue with the UK being hostile towards Chinese ambitions in the South China Sea. Even if you don’t agree with Chinese policy on that, the UK will be in no position to attempt to negotiate trade deals with a huge economic power like China while simultaneously trying to lay down the law on against its territorial expansion.

I think the UK has a future of being relatively poorer and being bounced around by big powers : US, EU and China.

It'll go from being part of a major trade rule maker, to being a rule taker that has to balance political influence, military objectives and so on against economic interests all the time in a way that it hasn’t had to do almost ever before. It’s setting foot into the world as a medium sized county without an empire or the EU.

You’ve also got magical thinking going on in the assumption that British business will even be able to take up these supposed post Brexit opportunities. Their market access, supply chains, possibly access to credit lines and all sorts of regulatory and environmental issues are being turned upside down and things are being ripped pot from under them, yet somehow there supposed to just prosper and take chunks of already established markets?

What is to say they’re even able to do that?
Many businesses simply won’t be able to and will just flounder.

It’s reminding me of the logic of the clearance of the glens in Scotland where a bunch of upper class morons sent Scottish tenant farmers to the coasts, clearing the land for sheep and expected them to somehow to make a living as fishermen - they died or emigrated.

High level ideological politics dictating how companies operate is a recipe for disaster.

Isn't Ireland a perfect example of this. The UK still think that we will follow them around like a puppy. They seem to think that we owe them something because they "looked after" us for hundreds of years. They still haven't copped on that we are now the EU.

Infini

Silent Running wrote: »

Isn't Ireland a perfect example of this. The UK still think that we will follow them around like a puppy. They seem to think that we owe them something because they "looked after" us for hundreds of years. They still haven't copped on that we are now the EU.

Neither have they copped onto the fact that Ireland thanks to the EU is in a far stronger negotiating position than at any time in the past and if we were like them we could trash their economy if we wanted to just to spite then. Thing is were not we generally try to avoid problems if its possible but if they choose to crash out then they can whinge all they like but we can simply turn around and say "We gave you an out".

LeinsterDub

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xt4u1ASzdU

Very interesting video.

TM has changed her position for a 3rd time.

TM understood to now accept the risk of resignations from the cabinet is smaller than the risk of time running out.

Friday will be interesting!

Imreoir2

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Very interesting video.

TM has changed her position for a 3rd time.

TM understood to now accept the risk of resignations from the cabinet is smaller than the risk of time running out.

Friday will be interesting!

May is begging EU leaders not to reject her white paper out of hand because it will put her in a "perilously exposed" position domesticly.

At least she knows her White Paper is bull****, she just wants the EU to play along for a while to give her cover at home. Unless she is privatly promising to capitulate once she has seen off the Brexiteers, then I don't see why the EU should bother playing along.

EdgeCase

They won’t play along as everything she says turns out to be spin.
Also, think about this from a domestic perspective. Why would Macron basically help Marine Le Pen with her PR drive or Angela Merkel or any other centrist German politician help out the AfD? That’s the political space the Tories now occupy.

May is presenting a jingoistic, borderline xenophobic set of policies and has been very hostile towards her EU partners.

The EU 27 owe her no favours at all.

You’re talking about a party who vilified Poles, Czechs, Romanians and other Eastern European EU citizens and that has more or less threatened Ireland, blames all of the country’s woes and its own bad policies on Brussels ...

Not only that but May has proven time and time again to be a master of political miscalculation. I wouldn’t back her cunning domestic political plans under any circumstances.

flatty

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xt4u1ASzdU

Very interesting video.

TM has changed her position for a 3rd time.

TM understood to now accept the risk of resignations from the cabinet is smaller than the risk of time running out.

Friday will be interesting!

I don't actually believe anything I read on this anymore. TM will change again with whatever wind is blowing. Jrm seems to have overplayed his hand though. I think tm is finally becoming aware of what a hard brexit will entail, and the fact that her smug face will be the "posterboy" for it.
Like I said before, she has put herself in a position where she will be unable to safely walk in public without abuse in the future. She is widely despised now, before Brexit has even happened. One of my best pals is a major league property guy, and an intensely bright individual. Until now, he had always said to me "don't worry, it'll never happen". Last night he told me he was liquidising the bulk of his assets and hunkering down for a major recession, as, unbelievably, it will.

Water John

The Electoral Commission has found that the Leave campaign, broke the law. This sort of dents any hyperbole being thrown around just before the Chequers meeting by Brexiteers.

ArmaniJeanss

Water John wrote: »

The Electoral Commission has found that the Leave campaign, broke the law. This sort of dents any hyperbole being thrown around just before the Chequers meeting by Brexiteers.

I've seen something called the Venice Convention on Elections bandied around the last few hours. Apparently the UK is a signatory to it which includes the clause

. In the event of a failure to abide by the statutory requirements, for instance if the cap on spending is exceeded by a significant margin, the vote must be annulled

http://www.venice.coe.int/webforms/documents/default.aspx?pdffile=cdl-ad(2007)008-e

I don't how true or relevant any of this is or what legalese caveats there are at the bottom - kinda looks like a potential get out clause if that was the prevailing wind, or an irrelevancy to be ignored coz 'will o' the people' etc.

trellheim

May is begging EU leaders not to reject her white paper out of hand because it will put her in a "perilously exposed" position domesticly.

At least she knows her White Paper is bull****, she just wants the EU to play along for a while to give her cover at home. Unless she is privatly promising to capitulate once she has seen off the Brexiteers, then I don't see why the EU should bother playing along.

In fairness the EU has given her all the rope that should be needed since 2016 to come up with the relationship they want to have. Frustration and a need to damage control is now overriding.

trellheim

If you want a fun topic look at EASA licensing its real canary in a coalmine stuff.

see https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/transport/files/legislation/brexit-notice-to-stakeholders-aviation-safety.pdf

and for discussion

https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/607757-ec-notice-brexit-issued-licenses-certificates-invalid.html

Gerry T

ArmaniJeanss wrote:

I don't how true or relevant any of this is or what legalese caveats there are at the bottom - kinda looks like a potential get out clause if that was the prevailing wind, or an irrelevancy to be ignored coz 'will o' the people' etc.

You may have a point, but A50 was enacted and unless all remaining 27 agree come march next yr the UK is out.
The election was only advisory so ultimately the decision to trigger A50 was not legally bound to the election. This may get some press but it's a storm in a tea cup and won't have any lasting impact imo.

EdgeCase

I would assume the UK Government will ignore the overspend, unless it's forced to do something by the courts.

Dymo

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I've seen something called the Venice Convention on Elections bandied around the last few hours. Apparently the UK is a signatory to it which includes the clause

http://www.venice.coe.int/webforms/documents/default.aspx?pdffile=cdl-ad(2007)008-e

I don't how true or relevant any of this is or what legalese caveats there are at the bottom - kinda looks like a potential get out clause if that was the prevailing wind, or an irrelevancy to be ignored coz 'will o' the people' etc.

That could be 1000 percent true but I can never see the validity of the referendum being brought to a stage where the vote could be invalid.

There was a 72.21 percent turnout and it was people who cast their vote based on the information they believed and the outcome they wanted. There was loads of evidence on both sides of what would happen but people preferred to believe project fear was a lie, after all the fearmongering during the Scotland referendum.

LeinsterDub

“We have been waiting for months for the White Paper of 10 Downing Street and we will analyse it on its merits,” Juncker said in French, referring to the May government’s expected proposal.

“But I want to say here that we will not accept the isolation of the Irish question so that it remains the only unresolved issue at the end of the negotiations,” he said.

“All of us, we are Irish,” concluded Juncker, this time speaking in English.

Juncker’s comments reflected the EU’s refusal to advance on trade talks until a breakthrough is found on the stalled question of how to avoid border checks between British Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland after Brexit.

https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/news/eus-juncker-warns-britain-we-are-all-irish-on-brexit/


Juncker to TM remember what you agreed in December basically.

Professor Moriarty

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/news/eus-juncker-warns-britain-we-are-all-irish-on-brexit/


Juncker to TM remember what you agreed in December basically.

"All of us, we are Irish." That's a very powerful message.

BonnieSituation

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/news/eus-juncker-warns-britain-we-are-all-irish-on-brexit/


Juncker to TM remember what you agreed in December basically.

And yet some would posit that we'll be thrown under a bus.

Imreoir2

BonnieSituation wrote: »

And yet some would posit that we'll be thrown under a bus.

If it's a Brexit bus, it might run out of fuel before it hits us.

An Ciarraioch

UK Parliament's International Trade Committee hearing testimony today on the Turkish-Bulgarian border (which has been known to have regular tailbacks for up to 30 hours), to examine the implications for the Irish frontier:

https://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/international-trade-committee/news-parliament-2017/northern-ireland-border-evidence-17-19/

Meanwhile, the Tánaiste is to meet the UK's Deputy PM in London today.

trellheim

Meanwhile, the Tánaiste is to meet the UK's Deputy PM in London today

Empty job according to wikipedia lol

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deputy_Prime_Minister_of_the_United_Kingdom

IAF its Lidington, Gove, Hammond and Karen Bradley. So two hard and two soft ..

( sorry link from it https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/simon-coveney-to-meet-top-level-soft-brexiteers-in-london-1.3552875 )

Professor Moriarty

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

"All of us, we are Irish." That's a very powerful message.

It's been said before but it must be really annoying for Unionists in the North to read that. London doesn't give a toss about them, and here's other countries standing by us.

Nody

trellheim wrote: »

and for discussion

https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/607757-ec-notice-brexit-issued-licenses-certificates-invalid.html

And the UK attitude prevails...

This will be sorted - too much would be lost by all Brexit affected parties. Landing rights, overflights,, etc. The potential to seriously damage the industry will prevent this ridiculous posturing from happening.

I can't help believing that this is just ' process ' from the EU and as far as our industry is concerned, in two years' time we'll be wondering why any of us even thought it was worth contributing to this thread.

Setting aside the European pilot force as massive net beneficiaries of the UK employment market, even outside aviation, I'm afraid Europe needs the UK far more than they seem to realise.

Whilst the EU may wish to sabotage/punish the UK. I’m sure the tourist industries of places like Spain, Portugal, Greece, France, Italy etc would miss their British tourists spending their British pounds!

An Ciarraioch

trellheim wrote: »

Empty job according to wikipedia lol

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deputy_Prime_Minister_of_the_United_Kingdom

IAF its Lidington, Gove, Hammond and Karen Bradley. So two hard and two soft ..

( sorry link from it https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/simon-coveney-to-meet-top-level-soft-brexiteers-in-london-1.3552875 )

Yes, technically he's a Minister without Portfolio, but he was promoted to the position when Damien Green resigned.

Inquitus

Seems it is all likely to kickoff at Chequers later this week, if May really wants to provide the EU with a clear and concise Whitepaper then she has to finally face down the 2 wings of her party, we could have Cabinet resignations, a Leadership challenge, or a fudge which kicks it down the road some more, but realistically speaking the road runs out on Friday and hits a big brick wall!

trellheim

If I was in TM's shoes a few heads on spikes in advance might concentrate minds; lord knows a few people need to be taught about collective cabinet responsibility.

trellheim

This will be sorted - too much would be lost by all Brexit affected parties. Landing rights, overflights,, etc. The potential to seriously damage the industry will prevent this ridiculous posturing from happening.

There was a rumour doing the rounds that IAA were charging €600 a pop to exchange CAA licenses to IAA ones in advance of Brexit, and apparently business was brisk