Brexit discussion thread IV

bilston

VinLieger wrote: »

bilston wrote: »

'Emergency Powers'...A bit OTT, Britain is one of the most non authoritarian countries on the planet. Some on here would have you believe that the Far Right are about to seize power in some kind of Putsch.

1% of the worlds population yet 20% of its cctv yeah not authoritarian at all....

Good sarcastic response.

Free elections, free speech, having an opposition, having a PM who clearly cannot do as she pleases all suggest that the UK is definitely not authoritarian.

A quick google of your stat by the way brings up a Daily Mail headline from 2007 as the first search item. I'm sure you wouldn't have referenced that rag to make a point on Boards.

judeboy101

bilston wrote: »

Good sarcastic response.

Free elections, free speech, having an opposition, having a PM who clearly cannot do as she pleases all suggest that the UK is definitely not authoritarian.

A quick google of your stat by the way brings up a Daily Mail headline from 2007 as the first search item. I'm sure you wouldn't have referenced that rag to make a point on Boards.

State religion, unelected hereditary head of state with important executive powers, unelected second chamber, state endorsed sectarian laws preventing citizens who are catholic from ever becoming pm or monarch. The UK isn't the paragon of freedom, when you scratch the surface.

CelticRambler

Getting away from hard economics for a minute ... https://www.radiotimes.com/news/radio/2018-07-25/womad-2018-festival-brexit-britain-visas/

“The saddest thing is always the number of artists struggling to get visas to come and perform. What we’re seeing this year is unexpected and even more depressing, which is artists saying we’re just not going to tackle the immigration system, saying it’s too difficult and too expensive, and it’s humiliating. Artists have accepted our invitation and then looked into the visa process and told us, sorry we’re just not going to do this. That’s a situation we should be ashamed of.”

judeboy101

CelticRambler wrote: »

Getting away from hard economics for a minute ... https://www.radiotimes.com/news/radio/2018-07-25/womad-2018-festival-brexit-britain-visas/

In fairness I'd say half those lads are on a watch list somewhere :-)

Rhineshark

bilston wrote: »

Good sarcastic response.

Free elections, free speech, having an opposition, having a PM who clearly cannot do as she pleases all suggest that the UK is definitely not authoritarian.

A quick google of your stat by the way brings up a Daily Mail headline from 2007 as the first search item. I'm sure you wouldn't have referenced that rag to make a point on Boards.

Yes, but even I didn't say that the UK IS authoritarian, I said I could see it going that way. The tense is important.

What do you think of the actual points that I made, because I would call them warning signs.

maynooth_rules

ArthurDayne wrote: »

I'm getting so tired of this talk about the Irish Government having been antagonistic in the Brexit process. This country stands to be affected significantly by Brexit -- a fact which was essentially ignored in the political debate in the UK pre-referendum.

It is ironic that the Brexiteers talk about reclaiming sovereignty and the importance of small independent nation states, yet they sneer at the prospect of a small nation state having the temerity to stand up for its own interests.

Not forgetting the gigantic point that the North rejected Brexit.

CelticRambler

judeboy101 wrote: »

In fairness I'd say half those lads are on a watch list somewhere :-)

:eek: That's my ESTA application scuppered then, as they're the kind of lads I hang out with during the summer! Had one of them (well, the lass version) in the house last week, killing time between festivals.

bilston

Rhineshark wrote: »

bilston wrote: »

Good sarcastic response.

Free elections, free speech, having an opposition, having a PM who clearly cannot do as she pleases all suggest that the UK is definitely not authoritarian.

A quick google of your stat by the way brings up a Daily Mail headline from 2007 as the first search item. I'm sure you wouldn't have referenced that rag to make a point on Boards.

Yes, but even I didn't say that the UK IS authoritarian, I said I could see it going that way. The tense is important.

What do you think of the actual points that I made, because I would call them warning signs.

When I think of an authoritarian state I think of somewhere like China. The Tories believe in less government not more. I don't see it being a problem under the Conservatives. I'd be more worried about a Corbyn government, but even then he would need the support of the House of Commons. People criticise the House of Commons here but it is precisely that legislature that keeps any UK PM and govt in check.

hill16bhoy

judeboy101 wrote: »

State religion, unelected hereditary head of state with important executive powers, unelected second chamber, state endorsed sectarian laws preventing citizens who are catholic from ever becoming pm or monarch. The UK isn't the paragon of freedom, when you scratch the surface.

There's absolutely nothing in UK law to stop a Catholic from becoming PM.

Iain Duncan-Smith is a Catholic and was when he was Tory leader. The only thing that stopped him becoming PM was his own incompetence.

Ed Miliband and Michael Howard led the opposition in the recent past and both are Jewish.

Ireland's second chamber is largely unelected and those who are elected are not elected by the general public.

blinding

maynooth_rules wrote: »

Not forgetting the gigantic point that the North rejected Brexit.

This interest in the North of Ireland is very interesting .

Irish and British governments tend to ignore the North as much as possible for as long as possible if at all possible .

Now , Suddenly the North is very useful in the tactics around Brexit and the Irish and British governments are very interested in the North . Even the Eu is in on the act . Northern Ireland is going to feel very lonely when Brexit is eventually sorted out . The British government , the Irish government , the Eu will all go missing . Northern Ireland will go back to being the unimportant place it has always been .

Water John

Rubbish, many politicians, both in the UK and ROI invested much of their time in sorting out NI, with little or no personal political gain. Fair is fair.

blinding

Water John wrote: »

Rubbish, many politicians, both in the UK and ROI invested much of their time in sorting out NI, with little or no personal political gain. Fair is fair.

None of that was happening until the IRA called off its campaign . The IRA’s decision to stop was the most important part .

Sam Russell

blinding wrote: »

This interest in the North of Ireland is very interesting .

Irish and British governments tend to ignore the North as much as possible for as long as possible if at all possible .

Now , Suddenly the North is very useful in the tactics around Brexit and the Irish and British governments are very interested in the North . Even the Eu is in on the act . Northern Ireland is going to feel very lonely when Brexit is eventually sorted out . The British government , the Irish government , the Eu will all go missing . Northern Ireland will go back to being the unimportant place it has always been .

At the time of Ian Smith and the lead up to the Rhodesian UDI, Ian Smith was under pressure to introduce 'One man - one vote' and surprised Harold Wilson by asking why there wasn't 'One man - one vote' in Northern Ireland, as Harold Wilson was unaware that that was the case. [Property owners were entitled to extra votes - that tended to favour the Unionists]

It is amazing to think that the UK PM was unaware of how NI operated the Stormont Gov.

blinding

Sam Russell wrote: »

At the time of Ian Smith and the lead up to the Rhodesian UDI, Ian Smith was under pressure to introduce 'One man - one vote' and surprised Harold Wilson by asking why there wasn't 'One man - one vote' in Northern Ireland, as Harold Wilson was unaware that that was the case. [Property owners were entitled to extra votes - that tended to favour the Unionists]

It is amazing to think that the UK PM was unaware of how NI operated the Stormont Gov.

Lets put it this Northern Ireland is going to be quare lonely after Brexit is sorted .

Like an Orphan with no takers !

murphaph

bilston wrote: »

'Emergency Powers'...A bit OTT, Britain is one of the most non authoritarian countries on the planet. Some on here would have you believe that the Far Right are about to seize power in some kind of Putsch.

The Weimar Republic was non-authoritarian. You could freely protest and during the 20's things even looked good economically. Then the economic shock of the 1929 crash arrived and 3 years later Adolf Hitler was running the show.

Do not underestimate what a catastrophic Brexit can lead to.

blinding

murphaph wrote: »

The Weimar Republic was non-authoritarian. You could freely protest and during the 20's things even looked good economically. Then the economic shock of the 1929 crash arrived and 3 years later Adolf Hitler was running the show.

Do not underestimate what a catastrophic Brexit can lead to.

And always keep an eye on the Germans .

murphaph

blinding wrote: »

And always keep an eye on the Germans .

As a German resident and soon to be citizen (appointment in 2 weeks to formally submit my application) I would say the following; Germans recognise the incredible damage their country did to Europe. Basically everything Germany has done since the war has been in an effort to make amends. Germany doesn't actually need the EU. It would probably be the least damaged by the breakup of the EU in fact, as its goods are desired the world over.

Even in Ireland we have begun facing up to the darker parts of our history.

The British are way behind in this regard. They are loathed to admit that the empire was mostly for the benefit of the motherland.

Rhineshark

bilston wrote: »

When I think of an authoritarian state I think of somewhere like China. The Tories believe in less government not more. I don't see it being a problem under the Conservatives. I'd be more worried about a Corbyn government, but even then he would need the support of the House of Commons. People criticise the House of Commons here but it is precisely that legislature that keeps any UK PM and govt in check.

Sure, China is authoritarian through a communist approach. That is not the only form though.

And it is this conservative government that is very happy to remove rights from people and Tory voices that call for a return of the death penalty, extradition to countries with the dp and now apparently criminalizing as treason being a Remainer (or at least Remainers who won't "accept democracy" by shutting up and being grateful that they're still allowed to exist). "Extreme loyalty to the EU" is stupidly subjective. Who makes -that- call? What does it even mean? If that's treason, is it ONLY treason if it is the EU? What if you're half-German and value your German ancestry? Is that "extreme loyalty" given the dread Germany is not only in the EU but apparently IS the EU according to some of the nuttier voices. What about "extreme loyalty" to non-EU countries like the US?

Will any of these actually happen? Looks like the second will (extradition) but the very fact that Tory voices are emboldened to float these ideas is already a bad sign.

And if they do actually go no deal then I actually expect emergency powers, because they will have a national emergency on their hands.

But the biggest direct threat I reckon is the withdrawel bill and the sorting out of what will remain in British legislation, regardless of how hard the swandive off the cliff is. That is an unprecedented power grab, as neccessary as it has now become...thanks to Tory actions. I do not, based on all current evidence, expect them to wield that power rationally for the good of the country.

I do expect wealth transfer to continue to corporate hands though, and politicians to continue to benefit from such arrangements.

ancapailldorcha

blinding wrote: »

And always keep an eye on the Germans .

Enough quips. Final warning.

Charles Babbage

murphaph wrote: »

The Weimar Republic was non-authoritarian. You could freely protest and during the 20's things even looked good economically. Then the economic shock of the 1929 crash arrived and 3 years later Adolf Hitler was running the show.

Do not underestimate what a catastrophic Brexit can lead to.

Germany ran into problems because of the crash in the US, an event they did not cause. Britain is unilaterally causing their own problems at a time when there is no particular pressure on them, in fact their problems are being caused by hubris and an irrational belief in their own self importance. They have zero self reflection on their own history, when most countries have had to reassess things to some extent.

blinding

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Germany ran into problems because of the crash in the US, an event they did not cause. Britain is unilaterally causing their own problems at a time when there is no particular pressure on them, in fact their problems are being caused by hubris and an irrational belief in their own self importance. They have zero self reflection on their own history, when most countries have had to reassess things to some extent.

Maybe they just want to run their own Country . The Eu has way too much power and what normally happens when Politicians get way too much power . The British people do not want the Eu having so much power in their lives / country . If you do not want the Eu having this much effect in your Country it is best to leave the Eu .

Lemming

blinding wrote: »

Maybe they just want to run their own Country . The Eu has way too much power and what normally happens when Politicians get way too much power . The British people do not want the Eu having so much power in their lives / country . If you do not want the Eu having this much effect in your Country it is best to leave the Eu .

Britain is the EU. Think about that and then read the above tripe you just wrote again. It reads like something from the darkest, most pro-unicorn pages of the Daily Express.

judeboy101

hill16bhoy wrote: »

There's absolutely nothing in UK law to stop a Catholic from becoming PM.

Iain Duncan-Smith is a Catholic and was when he was Tory leader. The only thing that stopped him becoming PM was his own incompetence.

Ed Miliband and Michael Howard led the opposition in the recent past and both are Jewish.

Ireland's second chamber is largely unelected and those who are elected are not elected by the general public.

There is a law preventing a jew or Catholic from advising the Queen or King on the the choice of Anglican Bishops when the position needs filling. They can't sit in a cabinet where such decisions are made. So I think you'll find that while a Jewish or catholic pm is technically possible, they would have to wait outside while a cabinet makes a decision without them, and cabinet decisions cannot be made without the sign off from the pm unless they are incapacitated.

blinding

Lemming wrote: »

Britain is the EU. Think about that and then read the above tripe you just wrote again. It reads like something from the darkest, most pro-unicorn pages of the Daily Express.

Britain is not going to be in the Eu much longer and the best of luck to them with it .

Trasna1

judeboy101 wrote: »

There is a law preventing a jew or Catholic from advising the Queen or King on the the choice of Anglican Bishops when the position needs filling. They can't sit in a cabinet where such decisions are made. So I think you'll find that while a Jewish or catholic pm is technically possible, they would have to wait outside while a cabinet makes a decision without them, and cabinet decisions cannot be made without the sign off from the pm unless they are incapacitated.

More than technically possible, there has been a Jewish pm I'm the past iirc.

ArthurDayne

blinding wrote: »

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Germany ran into problems because of the crash in the US, an event they did not cause. Britain is unilaterally causing their own problems at a time when there is no particular pressure on them, in fact their problems are being caused by hubris and an irrational belief in their own self importance. They have zero self reflection on their own history, when most countries have had to reassess things to some extent.

Maybe they just want to run their own Country . The Eu has way too much power and what normally happens when Politicians get way too much power . The British people do not want the Eu having so much power in their lives / country . If you do not want the Eu having this much effect in your Country it is best to leave the Eu .

This just seems like a bit of a diatribe though to be honest.  The whole concepts of 'power', 'sovereignty', 'running your own country' have been whittled down to almost pre-medieval meanings by the Brexiteers.
The entire developed world is melded together in a dazzling web of treaties, rules and obligations.  The EU was a recognition that Europe, unlike anywhere else in the world really, comprises a collection of both small/powerfully large successful developed economies separated by borders, languages and legal systems -- all of which are crammed into a relatively small area.  These divisions had been the cause of disharmony and conflict in the past -- both in terms of trade and diplomacy.  The EU treaties (and that is what the EU is after all -- a series of treaties) have done much to address that, while also impressively upholding and maintaining the interests of member states.  
In fact, the EU can well be regarded as an exemplar of the modern concept of sovereignty -- countries working with eachother for both their domestic national interests and the interests of their neighbours.  The old inward-looking view of sovereignty is long dead, and has been for centuries.

blinding

ArthurDayne wrote: »

This just seems like a bit of a diatribe though to be honest.  The whole concepts of 'power', 'sovereignty', 'running your own country' have been whittled down to almost pre-medieval meanings by the Brexiteers.
The entire developed world is melded together in a dazzling web of treaties, rules and obligations.  The EU was a recognition that Europe, unlike anywhere else in the world really, comprises a collection of both small/powerfully large successful developed economies separated by borders, languages and legal systems -- all of which are crammed into a relatively small area.  These divisions had been the cause of disharmony and conflict in the past -- both in terms of trade and diplomacy.  The EU treaties (and that is what the EU is after all -- a series of treaties) have done much to address that, while also impressively upholding and maintaining the interests of member states.  
In fact, the EU can well be regarded as an exemplar of the modern concept of sovereignty -- countries working with eachother for both their domestic national interests and the interests of their neighbours.  The old inward-looking view of sovereignty is long dead, and has been for centuries.

What if the Eu takes all your sovereignty or more than you want . Do you have to leave in that situation ?

Lemming

blinding wrote: »

What if the Eu takes all your sovereignty or more than you want . Do you have to leave in that situation ?

"The EU" can only act in so far as whatever powers you have chosen to pool allow. "It" cannot "take" anything.

Nate--IRL--

blinding wrote: »

What if the Eu takes all your sovereignty or more than you want . Do you have to leave in that situation ?

The EU can't take anything.

Nate

Charles Babbage

Trasna1 wrote: »

More than technically possible, there has been a Jewish pm I'm the past iirc.

If you mean Benjamin Disraeli, he became an Anglican at age 12, so wasn't Jewish while in office.