Brexit discussion thread IV

blinding

Imreoir2 wrote: »

They already had control of their own country. Part of having control of your own country is the ability to enter into treaties with other countries. Entering into a treaty does not mean you lose control of your own country, withdrawing from a treaty does not give you more control.

You seem to be just going anrond in circles, repeating slogans like "take back control". You still did not answer my questions, how does leaving the EU benefit the man or women on the street in the UK? What will they be able to do once they are no longer part of the EU, which supposidly has too much effect on their lives, that they can't do now? What is it that makes all of the economic self harm worth while?

They have told their Politicians that they do not want Mass Immigration from the Eu . That ‘ Fourth freedom ' is no longer available to the British Elite in Britain . Well and truly scuppered .

FrancieBrady

blinding wrote: »

They have told their Politicians that they do not want Mass Immigration from the Eu . That ‘ Fourth freedom ' is no longer available to the British Elite in Britain . Well and truly scuppered .

Where did they tell their politicians this?

Leroy42

blinding wrote: »

The Eu realise that Britain is special .

The other two are small enough to have ways of being influenced .

So the EU is willing to take account of a sovereign nations wishes!

Doesn't that kinda sink your entire position?

PeadarCo

blinding wrote:

The overwhelming majority of People on the Island of Britain could not give two hoots for the Irish Border . It has little or no impact / interest in their lives . Maybe if some one stared up a viable IRA or something . Thankfully no chance of that .

My point was not about the Irish border specifically but how ignorant some politicians are of the consequences of Brexit. Its a good example.

The Irish border is the UKs only land border with the EU. It should have been obvious that it would impact Brexit. The Irish border will directly impact the lives of everyone in the UK because it will have a big impact on the deal if any the UK has when it leaves.

Lemming

blinding wrote: »

They have told their Politicians that they do not want Mass Immigration from the Eu . That ‘ Fourth freedom ' is no longer available to the British Elite in Britain . Well and truly scuppered .

I'm sorry, that option wasn't on the ballot paper that I marked back in 2016. Can you tell me which vote it was that gave that particular option?

Imreoir2

blinding wrote: »

The Eu has huge say over your borders and what goes on there .

Eu law has primacy over domestic law .

The Eu has control over the Euro if that is your currency .

You seem to be missing the fact that the EU is not some external force imposing itself on EU states.

EU states chose to create a single market and customs unon because doing so was to their own benefit. They chose to work together on border controls to make the single market and customs union work properly. The EU does not have huge say over our borders, the EU is how we chose to regulate our borders along with other EU states so that together we can make the Single Market and Customs Union work properly.

EU law has primacy over domestic law, becuase EU states chose to give it primacy. They did this so that the decisions they have taken along with the other EU states can be implemented consistantly across the Union. It's not imposed from the outside, it's agreed between the members.

The EU does not have control over our currency, we have joint control over the currency we decided to create with the other members.

blinding

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Where did they tell their politicians this?

The referendum was the big guide-ing sign . The politicians have got that message anyway .

FrancieBrady

blinding wrote: »

The referendum was the big guide-ing sign . The politicians have got that message anyway .

The referendum asked, do you wish to leave the EU or remain.
There was sweet nothing about immigration on that paper.

So you have invented something there.

blinding

Lemming wrote: »

I'm sorry, that option wasn't on the ballot paper that I marked back in 2016. Can you tell me which vote it was that gave that particular option?

The Politicians certainly have taken the hint . Have you been listening to them since they got the message . Message received loud and clear .

That ‘ Fourth freedom ‘ is a non runner .

Leroy42

blinding wrote: »

The referendum was the big guide-ing sign . The politicians have got that message anyway .

So is it leave the EU but stay in the SM, because Hannon, Boris etc claimed during the campaign that leaving the SM was not part of Brexit.

So is ERG and Boris not accepting the will of the people?

Dyr

Imreoir2 wrote: »

U

EU states chose to create a single market and customs unon because doing so was to their own benefit. They chose to work together on border controls to make the single market and customs union work properly.

Until The Germans decided to unilaterally open their floodgates of course.

Imreoir2

Lemming wrote: »

I'm sorry, that option wasn't on the ballot paper that I marked back in 2016. Can you tell me which vote it was that gave that particular option?

Careful now. You might find yourself on the end of a short rope for "Extreme EU Loyalty" if you persist in questioning the Brexiteers god given right to rewrite the referendum question after the fact.

Lemming

blinding wrote: »

The Politicians certainly have taken the hint . Have you been listening to them since they got the message . Message received loud and clear .

That ‘ Fourth freedom ‘ is a non runner .

Again, where was the option that said "no to mass immigration" on the ballot paper? Everything and anything else is just dog-whistle racism playing at politics.

Ask 10 people who voted to leave on why they voted to leave and you'll get 11 answers, almost none of which ever stand up to scrutiny.

ancapailldorcha

trellheim wrote: »

What ? stop trolling please. fk sake and miles off topic.

Report posts if you have an issue with them please.

blinding

Imreoir2 wrote: »

You seem to be missing the fact that the EU is not some external force imposing itself on EU states.

EU states chose to create a single market and customs unon because doing so was to their own benefit. They chose to work together on border controls to make the single market and customs union work properly. The EU does not have huge say over our borders, the EU is how we chose to regulate our borders along with other EU states so that together we can make the Single Market and Customs Union work properly.

EU law has primacy over domestic law, becuase EU states chose to give it primacy. They did this so that the decisions they have taken along with the other EU states can be implemented consistantly across the Union. It's not imposed from the outside, it's agreed between the members.

The EU does not have control over our currency, we have joint control over the currency we decided to create with the other members.

The British people decided they did not want this . Democracy will have to fall for Britain not to leave the Eu unless there is a general election with hugely different manifestos especially from the winner if there is a winner or another referendum with a different result . Neither the Labour Leader or the Tory leader have gone along with a second referendum . Perhaps something to do with both of their manifestos saying that the would honour the referendum . I think you would need a General Election before there could be another referendum myself .

FrancieBrady

blinding wrote: »

The Politicians certainly have taken the hint . .

If they have why did May climb down on EU immigration during a transition period?


You are not making any sense here.

Imreoir2

Bambi wrote: »

Until The Germans decided to unilaterally open their floodgates of course.

Immigration from outside the EU, for economic or humanitarian reasons, does not effect the SIngle Market or Customs Union. Each EU country has it's own system for regulating migration from outside the EU. The Germans can "open the floodgates" as you somewhat crassly put it. The UK can build a wall if they like. Can't blame the EU there.

The irony is that in the interests of restircting migration from the EU, the UK may well be forced to "open the floodgates" to migration from countries outside the EU to keep their economey going.

Imreoir2

blinding wrote: »

The British people decided they did not want this.

Yes, I did notice that.

I am not questioning the fact that Leave won in the referendum, simply pointing out that the reasons given, like "taking back control" or "the EU has too much effect on peoples lives" are largely nonsence.

The UK is inflicting serious economic harm on themselves, and you have still not been able to show any real benefit from doing so.

They are free to go off and be poorer if they like, but we are free to point out the stupidity of that decision.

Calina

blinding wrote: »

They have told their Politicians that they do not want Mass Immigration from the Eu . That ‘ Fourth freedom ' is no longer available to the British Elite in Britain . Well and truly scuppered .

Elite. That is very divisive language.

But the problem is this. Many of the people who don't want Polish plumbers do want to retire to Spain. They want the fourth freedom alright and they aren't all rich, educated people. The fourth freedom is not limited to those you dismiss as the elite. Everyone in the UK has that freedom and a few million of them use it. The people who talk about not having the fourth freedom want it alright. They want their places in the sun. They just don't want non-British people to have the reciprocal right to live in Britain.

And you know what? It is because the bog standard immigrant arriving in the UK speaking decent English makes the bogstandard English Brexit man on the street feel inadequate. It isn't like too many English born tradesmen are educated enough to have learned a second language at school. At its core is not immigration, but insularity. The proBrexit vote leaned more towards those areas with few arrivals and little internal UK migration.

blinding

Democracy is absolutely brilliant . Cameron was great the way he let the British people decide how there future relationship with the Eu would be . Democracy is the most beautiful thing .

FrancieBrady

blinding wrote: »

Democracy is absolutely brilliant . Cameron was great the way he let the British people decide how there future relationship with the Eu would be . Democracy is the most beautiful thing .

Cameron may very well go down in history as that, but he stands a greater chance of going down in history as the PM who tore the UK apart.

blinding

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Cameron may very well go down in history as that, but he stands a greater chance of going down in history as the PM who tore the UK apart.

If its done democratically . So be it .

Imreoir2

blinding wrote: »

Democracy is absolutely brilliant . Cameron was great the way he let the British people decide how there future relationship with the Eu would be . Democracy is the most beautiful thing .

Democracy also elected Hitler, like most things, its how you use it.

Strazdas

blinding wrote: »

The Eu has huge say over your borders and what goes on there .

Eu law has primacy over domestic law .

The Eu has control over the Euro if that is your currency .

The EU has no 'control' over borders. Are you talking about freedom of movement for EU workers? That's an agreement entered into by anyone who wishes to be an EU member.

What domestic laws are you referring to? Criminal law is completely outside their jurisdiction. EU laws are mainly concerned with the environment, health and safety issues and working conditions and workers rights.

FrancieBrady

blinding wrote: »

If its done democratically . So be it .

Of course.

By the way, Cameron was forced to hold a referendum by internal Tory strife. He didn't do it for a love of democracy.

trellheim

Cameron may very well go down in history as that, but he stands a greater chance of going down in history as the PM who tore the UK apart.

There is very much an insight about party over country in that, as the referendum was to buy off the Eurosceptics in the Conservative Party and for no other reason. You can see the same from May at the moment in a bid to keep a majority in the tent.

Theres a crunch coming I think; Robbins and Barnier have been keeping very quiet ( the press above is just mood music ) about the actual negotiations . I suspect Robbins will have to go back with some unpalatable "this is what it will look like/has to look like" at the end of next week which breaks one or more of the red lines. It is then you will see the real fault line in the Tories.

Postscript : Getting a trade deal past 27 EU countries as well before March ? Am I nuts or does that sound utterly mental ?

blinding

trellheim wrote: »

There is very much an insight about party over country in that, as the referendum was to buy off the Eurosceptics in the Conservative Party and for no other reason. You can see the same from May at the moment in a bid to keep a majority in the tent.

Theres a crunch coming I think; Robbins and Barnier have been keeping very quiet ( the press above is just mood music ) about the actual negotiations . I suspect Robbins will have to go back with some unpalatable "this is what it will look like/has to look like" at the end of next week which breaks one or more of the red lines. It is then you will see the real fault line in the Tories.

Postscript : Getting a trade deal past 27 EU countries as well before March ? Am I nuts or does that sound utterly mental ?

Is this Robbins fella elected anywhere ? Giving an unelected fella too much say in stuff the electorate is very interested in , is very dangerous ground .

ancapailldorcha

blinding wrote: »

Is this Robbins fella elected anywhere ? Giving an unelected fella too much say in stuff the electorate is very interested in , is very dangerous ground .

Robbins is a civil servant, none of whom are elected which is something that Brexiteers seem not to be bothered with for some reason.

FrancieBrady

trellheim wrote: »

There is very much an insight about party over country in that, as the referendum was to buy off the Eurosceptics in the Conservative Party and for no other reason. You can see the same from May at the moment in a bid to keep a majority in the tent.

Theres a crunch coming I think; Robbins and Barnier have been keeping very quiet ( the press above is just mood music ) about the actual negotiations . I suspect Robbins will have to go back with some unpalatable "this is what it will look like/has to look like" at the end of next week which breaks one or more of the red lines. It is then you will see the real fault line in the Tories.

Postscript : Getting a trade deal past 27 EU countries as well before March ? Am I nuts or does that sound utterly mental ?

If they break their redlines they will be given more time imo.

They are slow learners but we (the EU) need to soften the impact on us as much as possible and save them from themselves too. A lot of the less well off will suffer because of this shambles.

Capt'n Midnight

blinding wrote: »

Unless the IRA ceasefire a resonable UK proposal, was in the offing these politicians would not have touched it ( certainly publicly ) with a barge Pole....too much aggro for no result .

FYP


https://sluggerotoole.com/2018/07/27/focusing-on-the-bigger-picture-is-how-to-prevent-a-brexit-disaster/
The EU have been waiting for the ferrets fighting in the sack to come up with something to discuss.
They briefly emerged from the sack at Chequers - and they dived straight back into it arguing over changing it.