Brexit discussion thread IV

Jim2007

blinding wrote: »

Democracy is absolutely brilliant . Cameron was great the way he let the British people decide how there future relationship with the Eu would be . Democracy is the most beautiful thing .

The people had to reelect Cameron in order to get a referendum, as they have no right to be consulted under the UK constitution and an unwritten one at that, depending on tradition rather than an actual legally binding democratic framework. And even then it had no legal force as referenda in the UK can only ever be consultative.

They have a sovereign parliament and when asked to give that parliament a mandate to implement the opinion expressed in the referendum they failed to do so. Which has got them to where they are today - a Tory party ready to break asunder, being held in office by a bribe to the DUP.

And when we consider that supposedly sovereign parliament we discover it is not so sovereign, through the FOA we know that both the Queen and Prince Charles have both interfered with the legislative process and that the PM has used the Queen's prerogative to subvert parliament and in fact it took a ruling from the Supreme Court to prevent May from invoking A50 without consulting parliament.

Democracy is a great thing, but the UK is very far from the yardstick when it comes to the democratic process.

trellheim

If they break their redlines they will be given more time imo.

They are slow learners but we (the EU) need to soften the impact on us as much as possible and save them from themselves too. A lot of the less well off will suffer because of this shambles.

But whats the process for that ? EU (all ) have said no extension unless theres a change in politics, and the UK have to ask for it too ( and A50 extension ) ; thatll precipitate a GE I reckon .

* I doubt the EU will grant it without being asked first ...

blinding

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If they break their redlines they will be given more time imo.

They are slow learners but we (the EU) need to soften the impact on us as much as possible and save them from themselves too. A lot of the less well off will suffer because of this shambles.

I don’t think the Eu has shown much concern for the less well off when it is so happy with Mass Immigration of cheap exploitable / slave labour . That sure don’t add up . The British electorate looked around what was going on around them and gave their answer in the referendum . = Bye Bye Eu .

trellheim

I don’t think the Eu has shown much concern for the less well off

You may not be aware of it but the EU gives you the opportunity to live and work in any member state in order to improve your lot. Its one of the benefits of the EU.

FrancieBrady

trellheim wrote: »

But whats the process for that ? EU (all ) have said no extension unless theres a change in politics, and the UK have to ask for it too ( and A50 extension ) ; thatll precipitate a GE I reckon .

* I doubt the EU will grant it without being asked first ...

The breaking of their redlines (which is inevitable at this stage) will be the sufficient 'change' needed.
They will then ask for an extension (why would they break relines otherwise) and be given it.

Leroy42

blinding wrote: »

I don’t think the Eu has shown much concern for the less well off when it is so happy with Mass Immigration of cheap exploitable / slave labour . That sure don’t add up . The British electorate looked around what was going on around them and gave their answer in the referendum . = Bye Bye Eu .

I think you are confusing immigration with FoM. The EU has no policy on immigration for outside the EU, that is left to each country.

So, have you an answer, apart from Democracy is great, on why they are pursuing leaving the SM when nobody was calling for that during the campaign?

And with your love of democracy, don't you agree that since MEPs are elected democratically, that anything the EU does is, by extension, democratic.

trellheim

The breaking of their redlines (which is inevitable at this stage) will be the sufficient 'change' needed.
They will then ask for an extension (why would they break relines otherwise) and be given it.

I think you are missing the bit where they accept such 'breaking' , that is the bit I think they will get the hump over.

blinding

trellheim wrote: »

You may not be aware of it but the EU gives you the opportunity to live and work in any member state in order to improve your lot. Its one of the benefits of the EU.

And handily enough that provides Mass Immigration of cheap exploitable / slave Labour for the Elite in Britain . The British electorate said No Thanks , Nein Danke , Non Merci or words to that affect . Ya can’t fool all of the People all of the time .

blinding

Leroy42 wrote: »

I think you are confusing immigration with FoM. The EU has no policy on immigration for outside the EU, that is left to each country.

So, have you an answer, apart from Democracy is great, on why they are pursuing leaving the SM when nobody was calling for that during the campaign?

And with your love of democracy, don't you agree that since MEPs are elected democratically, that anything the EU does is, by extension, democratic.

And the British elected plenty of UKIP MEP’s . Were they trying to tell the arrogant and out of touch Eu something . Even that did not work . Talk about not seeing the writing on the wall .

trellheim

blinding wrote: »

And handily enough that provides Mass Immigration of cheap exploitable / slave Labour for the Elite in Britain . The British electorate said No Thanks , Nein Danke , Non Merci or words to that affect . Ya can’t fool all of the People all of the time .

A: As people above have said - that option was not on the table. It was a straight leave/remain

B : You can't have it both ways. EU FOM is a benefit of being in the EU; it has massively improved countless people's lives.

Turning it around as a negative is daily mail headlines; it might suit a narrative people are trying to flog but other than that its groundless.

FrancieBrady

blinding wrote: »

The British electorate looked around what was going on around them and gave their answer in the referendum . = Bye Bye Eu .

This is pure fantasy again and complete ignorance of what actually happened in the referendum.

The areas with the highest immigration (urban areas) returned the lowest average Leave vote.

So they weren't 'looking around them' and seeing what you claim, at all.

Leroy42

blinding wrote: »

And the British elected plenty of UKIP MEP’s . Were they trying to tell the arrogant and out of touch Eu something . Even that did not work . Talk about not seeing the writing on the wall .

But unless the UKIP MEPs had a majority, then, and I know you agree with this because of your love of democracy, then then UKIP seem to be the ones that are out of touch with the majority of the EU.

Or should we discard democracy when it doesn't suit?

Capt'n Midnight

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Of course.

By the way, Cameron was forced to hold a referendum by internal Tory strife. He didn't do it for a love of democracy.

And only because he was certain Remain would win.

His attempt to stare down his critics in the party cost him his career, took 10% off Sterling and 2% off the UK's £ GDP so far, and it ain't over yet. Also has damaged UK relations with us and the EU and lots of third parties are taking notes on how to cherry pick future trade deals with the UK.

Epic fail.

blinding

trellheim wrote: »

A: As people above have said - that option was not on the table. It was a straight leave/remain

B : You can't have it both ways. EU FOM is a benefit of being in the EU; it has massively improved countless people's lives.

Turning it around as a negative is daily mail headlines; it might suit a narrative people are trying to flog but other than that its groundless.

So the Mass immigration of cheap exploitable / slave labour has no influence on pay and conditions / housing / use of services etc .

The British people looked around them in their everyday lives and gave their verdict . They are not for having it and quite right too .

Igotadose

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

And only because he was certain Remain would win.

His attempt to stare down his critics in the party cost him his career, took 10% off Sterling and 2% off the UK's £ GDP so far, and it ain't over yet. Also has damaged UK relations with us and the EU and lots of third parties are taking notes on how to cherry pick future trade deals with the UK.

Epic fail.

Worst PM since Chamberlain.

blinding

Leroy42 wrote: »

But unless the UKIP MEPs had a majority, then, and I know you agree with this because of your love of democracy, then then UKIP seem to be the ones that are out of touch with the majority of the EU.

Or should we discard democracy when it doesn't suit?

I haven’t checked but UKIP MEPs may well have been the majority of British MEPs .

blinding

Leroy42 wrote: »

But unless the UKIP MEPs had a majority, then, and I know you agree with this because of your love of democracy, then then UKIP seem to be the ones that are out of touch with the majority of the EU.

Or should we discard democracy when it doesn't suit?

UKIP were pro Brexit . They won the Big One . The referendum = Great result for Brexiteers .

Leroy42

blinding wrote: »

So the Mass immigration of cheap exploitable / slave labour has no influence on pay and conditions / housing / use of services etc .

The British people looked around them in their everyday lives and gave their verdict . They are not for having it and quite right too .

Slave labour? Really, where are you getting this from.

THere are standards and regulations in the UK, minimum wages etc. All set and controlled by the UK. If these are not being adhered to then that is the fault of the very politicians that the people, in their infinite wisdom, have opted to give even more power to

Calina

blinding wrote: »

trellheim wrote: »

You may not be aware of it but the EU gives you the opportunity to live and work in any member state in order to improve your lot. Its one of the benefits of the EU.

And handily enough that provides Mass Immigration of cheap exploitable / slave Labour for the Elite in Britain . The British electorate said No Thanks , Nein Danke , Non Merci or words to that affect . Ya can’t fool all of the People all of the time .

Dude, I live in a country where 48% of the population is foreign born. It is an EU country with consistently high approval ratings for the EU. What makes you think that only the UK's opinion matters? Other countries have absorbed large numbers of foreigners. Parts of Spain are little England.

There are major social issues in the UK. They aren't caused by intra EU migration to the UK. Education is a key problem particularly for those dependent on the state sector. It limits opportunities for a lot of people. Government inaction in the face of de-industrialisation did not help.

Bit lets blame Pawel who had the guts to leave his village in Poland to build a better life when Trevor in Sunderland wouldn't.

FrancieBrady

blinding wrote: »

Great result for Brexiteers .

They haven't managed to find a way to do it yet = not a great result so far.

Rhineshark

blinding wrote: »

I don’t think the Eu has shown much concern for the less well off when it is so happy with Mass Immigration of cheap exploitable / slave labour . That sure don’t add up . The British electorate looked around what was going on around them and gave their answer in the referendum . = Bye Bye Eu .

Lol! I guess you don't live in a deprived (or relatively so in RoI region or you'd have seen the investments in the region. Around here in particular there is also investment in the local culture (like community-run language classes) so the relatively small local community has a chance to absorb newcomers rather than being overwhelmed by them.

None so blind as the ones that refuse to see - or listen.

By the way, the UK refused to implement the controls they had and appear to have pretended to their own people that they didn't have the while exploiting it themselves. Thing is, because of that whole sovereignty thing, not much the EU can do about that. That was always within British control. No-one, for instance, forced Britain, Sweden and Ireland to be the only countries to immediately start taking migrants from Romania and Bulgaria when they joined. Sovereign choice. Same for the ridiculous zero hour contracts hire in the UK. Their government's choice, not that of the EU.

Leroy42

blinding wrote: »

And the British elected plenty of UKIP MEP’s . Were they trying to tell the arrogant and out of touch Eu something . Even that did not work . Talk about not seeing the writing on the wall .

blinding wrote: »

I haven’t checked but UKIP MEPs may well have been the majority of British MEPs .

So the EU should have ridden roughshod over the majority of the EU since the majority of the UK wanted something? Didn't NI vote to Remain, so by your logic NI should have decide on what happens.

blinding wrote: »

UKIP were pro Brexit . They won the Big One . The referendum = Great result for Brexiteers .

Yes, and they are leaving. Nobody is stopping them from leaving. The EU are merely saying that they can't take all the furniture and fittings with them when they leave.

Again, why are the UK having such a hissy fit about all this. Just get on with it. Two years and they are still complaining

blinding

Calina wrote: »

Dude, I live in a country where 48% of the population is foreign born. It is an EU country with consistently high approval ratings for the EU. What makes you think that only the UK's opinion matters? Other countries have absorbed large numbers of foreigners. Parts of Spain are little England.

There are major social issues in the UK. They aren't caused by intra EU migration to the UK. Education is a key problem particularly for those dependent on the state sector. It limits opportunities for a lot of people. Government inaction in the face of de-industrialisation did not help.

Bit lets blame Pawel who had the guts to leave his village in Poland to build a better life when Trevor in Sunderland wouldn't.

The Brits were given a vote on it and the said No Thanks . Democracy is the most beautiful thing . Love it .

Calina

blinding wrote: »

Leroy42 wrote: »

But unless the UKIP MEPs had a majority, then, and I know you agree with this because of your love of democracy, then then UKIP seem to be the ones that are out of touch with the majority of the EU.

Or should we discard democracy when it doesn't suit?

I haven’t checked but UKIP MEPs may well have been the majority of British MEPs .

They arent and not close. equal to Tories, 2 less than Labour. Not hard to check and deeply unlikely even now.

blinding

Leroy42 wrote: »

So the EU should have ridden roughshod over the majority of the EU since the majority of the UK wanted something? Didn't NI vote to Remain, so by your logic NI should have decide on what happens.



Yes, and they are leaving. Nobody is stopping them from leaving. The EU are merely saying that they can't take all the furniture and fittings with them when they leave.

Again, why are the UK having such a hissy fit about all this. Just get on with it. Two years and they are still complaining

I don’t understand why the Eu don’t just shake hands and say good bye . “ Lets have a few drinks now and then "

Leroy42

blinding wrote: »

I don’t understand why the Eu don’t just shake hands and say good bye . “ Lets have a few drinks now and then "

They have. And they have also given the UK options about when and what drinks.

The problem is the UK don't want to stand by their current obligations, and don't like the drinks on offer - to really pull out the analogy.

Do you think the EU should just let them off without settling their obligations?

blinding

Rhineshark wrote: »

Lol! I guess you don't live in a deprived (or relatively so in RoI region or you'd have seen the investments in the region. Around here in particular there is also investment in the local culture (like community-run language classes) so the relatively small local community has a chance to absorb newcomers rather than being overwhelmed by them.

None so blind as the ones that refuse to see - or listen.

By the way, the UK refused to implement the controls they had and appear to have pretended to their own people that they didn't have the while exploiting it themselves. Thing is, because of that whole sovereignty thing, not much the EU can do about that. That was always within British control. No-one, for instance, forced Britain, Sweden and Ireland to be the only countries to immediately start taking migrants from Romania and Bulgaria when they joined. Sovereign choice. Same for the ridiculous zero hour contracts hire in the UK. Their government's choice, not that of the EU.

There has never been a Pound or Euro of Eu money spent in Britain . Britain has always contributed more than it got out . In any case the Eu has no money . They spend other peoples Money . Great racket .

Re the Immigration Controls the British Electorate gave their opinion on their governments Eu Immigration Policies in the referendum ; Answer = No thanks .

I love democracy .

blinding

Leroy42 wrote: »

They have. And they have also given the UK options about when and what drinks.

The problem is the UK don't want to stand by their current obligations, and don't like the drinks on offer - to really pull out the analogy.

Do you think the EU should just let them off without settling their obligations?

The Eu should tell them to sling their Hook and the British can respond as best they wish .

trellheim

There has never been a Pound or Euro of Eu money spent in Britain . Britain has always contributed more than it got out . In any case the Eu has no money . They spend other peoples Money . Great racket .

Re the Immigration Controls the British Electorate gave their opinion on their governments Eu Immigration Policies in the referendum ; Answer = No thanks .

I love democracy .

You keep saying this. That was not an option on the vote. It was straight leave/remain. I'm going to keep calling you out on this.

Leroy42

blinding wrote: »

The Eu should tell them to sling their Hook and the British can respond as best they wish .

Wait, you just posted suggesting that the EU should says thanks and where the next drinks meet up.

Now the EU should tell the UK to feck off without any offers. Yet you also called the EU out of touch for not listening to the UKIP MEP's.

The EU have given them a selection of options. From stomping out in a huff, to staying in. They are giving the UK every option that works within the rules of the EU.

As you love democracy, do you think the EU should break the rules, voted on by the people of the EU, to give the much smaller population of the UK what they want?

27 countries agree to the four pillars, the UK doesn't. But you think the 27 should give up that position because 1 member has a vote? Love love democracy when it suits you it seems.

You must recall, that it was Thatcher who was a leading advocate of the CU. That up until 2016, every UK party that was in government, and thus voted for by the public, and agreed and the direction of the EU. So the UK democratically agreed to the EU position.

Fine that they have changed their minds, that great for them. But should all the other countries now simply put aside their democracies because of that?