Brexit discussion thread IV

Igotadose

trellheim wrote: »

There was a rumour doing the rounds that IAA were charging €600 a pop to exchange CAA licenses to IAA ones in advance of Brexit, and apparently business was brisk

There was a video going around some months back by a barrister saying that "Brexit, most of all, is a legal agreement." Nobs that are saying things in comments like 'it'll sort itself out' and 'Spain wouldn't want to lose the tourism' don't understand this; everything in daily life is, at some level, controlled by a legal agreement somwhere. Brexit tosses a huge amount of them up in the air without replacements ready on the day Brexit goes into effect.

So, no agreement ready, Spain loses its tourists, private pilots can't fly from the UK to the EU, and so on and so on. And if the UK government plan is, 'we'll just copy everything that we had from the EU and make it ours,' the devil'll be in the details of what 'copy and paste' entails. And, of course, on Brexit day, it means for all intents and purposes, nothing'll have changed since the existing laws will still be in effect, under a UK imprimatur.

Imreoir2

May pledged at PMQ's today that after Brexit the UK would be outside the Customs Union, the Single Market, CAP, CFP, end freedom of movement, leave the UK in full controll of it's borders and with an independant trade policy.

The only way this is possible is to agree to allow NI stay within the Customs Union and Single Market, or a no-deal Brexit.

trellheim

And, of course, on Brexit day, it means for all intents and purposes, nothing'll have changed since the existing laws will still be in effect, under a UK imprimatur.

Have to stop you there - no it doesn't without a transition agreement

Hard Brexit - for example - means no ECJ oversight so the laws CAN'T be in effect - the rest of the EU cant deal with that . Unless you have an agreed transition - which we do not have as "nothing's agreed till everything's agreed".

Imreoir2

trellheim wrote: »

Have to stop you there - no it doesn't without a transition agreement

Hard Brexit - for example - means no ECJ oversight so the laws CAN'T be in effect - the rest of the EU cant deal with that . Unless you have an agreed transition - which we do not have as "nothing's agreed till everything's agreed".

Sure the UK will have all the same laws, but the EU won't recognise them so the permits, certs, licences etc issued under those laws may as well be toilet paper in the EU.

Igotadose

trellheim wrote: »

Have to stop you there - no it doesn't without a transition agreement

Hard Brexit - for example - means no ECJ oversight so the laws CAN'T be in effect - the rest of the EU cant deal with that . Unless you have an agreed transition - which we do not have as "nothing's agreed till everything's agreed".

Thanks, forgot that key point. There's no transition agreement in place (yet another problem the UK government has.)

ambro25

Igotadose wrote: »

And if the UK government plan is, 'we'll just copy everything that we had from the EU and make it ours,' the devil'll be in the details of what 'copy and paste' entails. And, of course, on Brexit day, it means for all intents and purposes, nothing'll have changed since the existing laws will still be in effect, under a UK imprimatur.

A copy-paste, even verbatim, cannot work without also subjecting to the jurisdiction of the ECJ nor, depending on the quals/field, amendments to EU Directives themselves.

Short of that, come Brexit day, much will have indeed changed regardless of statutory alignment (refer my earlier post about U.K. legal quals currently permitting a U.K. solicitor to practice across the EU28 because they’re EEA (UK) quals and the professional is EEA (UK) based: once the UK is out of the EEA, the first condition will always fail to be met, both in the U.K. and across the EU27, regardless of what U.K. statutes say).

CelticRambler

John Redwood, in that C4 video, still (still) sticking to the line that it's the EU who's dragging their feet. "Would they like a comprehensive free trade agreement with us or not? I think it's deeply in their interest to do so ... and it's up to the EU to decide whether that's yes or no."

Jolly generous of you, old chap, to allow Johnny Foreigner continue to do business with you when you've unilaterally decided to tear up a perfectly good free trade agreement.

Nody

CelticRambler wrote: »

John Redwood, in that C4 video, still (still) sticking to the line that it's the EU who's dragging their feet. "Would they like a comprehensive free trade agreement with us or not? I think it's deeply in their interest to do so ... and it's up to the EU to decide whether that's yes or no."

Jolly generous of you, old chap, to allow Johnny Foreigner continue to do business with you when you've unilaterally decided to tear up a perfectly good free trade agreement.

Beyond the fact that the FTA can only be negotiated AFTER they have left in the first place; but hey why have facts stop a nice sound piece in true Brexit tradition.

Sam Russell

Imreoir2 wrote: »

May pledged at PMQ's today that after Brexit the UK would be outside the Customs Union, the Single Market, CAP, CFP, end freedom of movement, leave the UK in full controll of it's borders and with an independant trade policy.

The only way this is possible is to agree to allow NI stay within the Customs Union and Single Market, or a no-deal Brexit.

As summarised below.



The above does not include the promise that here will be no ECJ oversight.

trellheim

That is a superb graphic

trellheim

So :


https://www.channel4.com/news/by/gary-gibbon/blogs/brexit-strains-in-the-cabinet

Ministers are getting sessions with Brexit supremo Olly Robbins and the PM’s Chief of Staff Gavin Barwell in the coming days. Some have had them already. Some are also seeing the PM herself to discuss where she wants to take the Brexit policy and to check they can live with it. They’ve been told to gather 9.30-10 at Chequers on Friday for the full day of talks and dinner.

expect the leaky ship to start leaking soon unless they have all been told to keep schtumm - in which case it will be leaked in minutes !

Does anyone else think the BBC is being severely muzzled in a lot of this ?

BonnieSituation

Imreoir2 wrote: »

May pledged at PMQ's today that after Brexit the UK would be outside the Customs Union, the Single Market, CAP, CFP, end freedom of movement, leave the UK in full controll of it's borders and with an independant trade policy.

The only way this is possible is to agree to allow NI stay within the Customs Union and Single Market, or a no-deal Brexit.

So nothing has changed.

I'm finding myself in London over the next few days. Friday is gonna be extra fun in the bubble.

trellheim

Here is May's statement to the Commons on Monday ref EUCO

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2018-07-02/debates/EC4648D4-9B09-4D6A-A2E0-C38E425AF318/JuneEuropeanCouncil

I recommend its reading entire as you will get a decent picture of the view in Parliament of Brexit.

LuckyLloyd

trellheim wrote: »

Here is May's statement to the Commons on Monday ref EUCO

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2018-07-02/debates/EC4648D4-9B09-4D6A-A2E0-C38E425AF318/JuneEuropeanCouncil

I recommend its reading entire as you will get a decent picture of the view in Parliament of Brexit.

Corbyn’s response very thorough imo, highlighted all the major problems and impending road blocks

Capt'n Midnight

Another reminder that Brexit is a mega project, lots and lots of systems will need to be updated or changed or even invented.

Only two projects out of 133 are in the "Green" category
"Successful delivery of the project on time, budget and quality appears highly likely"

Max-Fac is just wishful thinking from a technical point of view.

Maybe the EU should say "yes, provided you deliver it, working and debugged by a certain date" and watch them fail while pouring money down the drain ?


Most of the other projects are late or over budget.
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/07/04/ipa_report_home_office_projects_undeliverable_and_risky/

Infrastructure and Projects Authority annual report (IPA), which this year assessed 133 large and risky programmes the government has on the go.

...
Overall, the IPA noted a general increase in the proportion of projects ranked red or amber-red – which indicates projects are undeliverable or at high risk of failure – from 38 to 46, and a decline in the proportion given amber-green or green, from 28 to 24.

Enzokk

trellheim wrote: »

So :


https://www.channel4.com/news/by/gary-gibbon/blogs/brexit-strains-in-the-cabinet



expect the leaky ship to start leaking soon unless they have all been told to keep schtumm - in which case it will be leaked in minutes !

Does anyone else think the BBC is being severely muzzled in a lot of this ?

Either they are being muzzled, or they have abandoned their duty and they are fully rowing behind Brexit and ignoring their duty. Seeing that they gave Vote Leave a platform to refute a report that is yet to be released, I think it is very clear that they are not being muzzled. They are rowing behind Brexit all the way.

Vote Leave broke electoral law, Electoral Commission expected to say

The story is a scoop, allowing Vote Leave the opportunity to reply to the report when it hasn't been released so no scrutiny by the "journalist" in this case can be done is a dereliction of duty. The journalist in this case is Laura Keunssberg who is the political editor of BBC News. She is one of the highest in the news organization, yet if you see her past where she was rapped over the knuckles by the BBC themselves on how she treated an interview with Jeremy Corbyn you wonder what is happening to the BBC.

As if to confirm what the EU is dealing with, here we have another minister lying to parliament. Esther McVey has apologised for misleading parliament, yet she was given a report and then duly made statement contrary to said report. This is another case of either the minister being incompetent for not reading important reports related to her department, or she read the report and lied openly. Either way she should be fired, my guess is she will keep her job just like others who has lied in this cabinet has done.

McVey apologises for misleading MPs on welfare changes

Esther McVey, the work and pensions secretary, has been forced to apologise to parliament after making misleading statements about the government’s faltering welfare changes.

The MP for Tatton’s statement followed the release of a damning letter from Sir Amyas Morse, who told the minister she had misinterpreted a report by the National Audit Office on universal credit to make it look as if the new welfare system was working well.

On Theresa May proclamations at PMQs today, again this reads as a hard Brexit. How do you reconcile leaving all those EU institutions without a border between NI and Ireland? This is a disgrace and if the white paper this Friday doesn't clear up a reasonable and workable solution the EU should walk away and start preparations for a hard border. We cannot continue this merry dance where she tries to satisfy all parties.

Jaggo

Enzokk wrote: »

On Theresa May proclamations at PMQs today, again this reads as a hard Brexit. How do you reconcile leaving all those EU institutions without a border between NI and Ireland? This is a disgrace and if the white paper this Friday doesn't clear up a reasonable and workable solution the EU should walk away and start preparations for a hard border. We cannot continue this merry dance where she tries to satisfy all parties.

Yeah, it doesn't look good.

She has had 2 years to realise the potential disaster of her red lines. At some point she needs to start making the case for the benefits of the single market if she is to garner support for any type of u-turn or wriggle room.

She has boxed herself in and with a cabinet of clowns this is really rather depressing.

fash

A potentially innovative solution to the Northern Ireland border problem discussed here:
https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-divided-kingdom/comment-page-1/#comment-2373983

Put the border between Scotland and England.
Does need the EU to extend things a bit, but other than that, it resolves a lot.

An Ciarraioch

fash wrote: »

A potentially innovative solution to the Northern Ireland border problem discussed here:
https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-divided-kingdom/comment-page-1/#comment-2373983

Put the border between Scotland and England.
Does need the EU to extend things a bit, but other than that, it resolves a lot.

The EU are only prepared to make a special case for NI precisely because it borders us, no chance they would extend it to Scotland. Meanwhile, it seems May is still trying to be all things to all people:

https://mobile.twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1014567427768807427

Capt'n Midnight

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

The EU are only prepared to make a special case for NI precisely because it borders us, no chance they would extend it to Scotland.

NI is a lot smaller, isn't viable on it's own ,and a sea border wouldn't require much infrastructure beyond more parking space.


Agri vehicles from GB are already subject to strict inspection and it's back on the next ferry if there's any muck or dirt on them.

flutered

trellheim wrote: »

If I was in TM's shoes a few heads on spikes in advance might concentrate minds; lord knows a few people need to be taught about collective cabinet responsibility.

mrs dithers would spend too much time dithering about things, that is unless nick timothy is on the fone to here first

flutered

Leroy42 wrote: »

And I think that is where the UK is really going to come unstuck after Brexit (regardless of how it ends up). They seem to be under the illusion that all these other countries will do almost anything to get a trade deal with the UK. The UK will set the regulation, the tariffs, it will be their courts that legislate.

But apart from the smallest nations, few of any actual worth in trade terms, will simply accept the UK rules and regulations. And they will certainly be looking for something in return (ie India has already said it wants more open immigration to the UK).

did not the uk veto an eu deal with india over this very thing, but since the uk decided to leave the deal is being negoitated

First Up

flutered wrote: »

Leroy42 wrote: »

And I think that is where the UK is really going to come unstuck after Brexit (regardless of how it ends up). They seem to be under the illusion that all these other countries will do almost anything to get a trade deal with the UK. The UK will set the regulation, the tariffs, it will be their courts that legislate.

But apart from the smallest nations, few of any actual worth in trade terms, will simply accept the UK rules and regulations. And they will certainly be looking for something in return (ie India has already said it wants more open immigration to the UK).

did not the uk veto an eu deal with india over this very thing, but since the uk decided to leave the deal is being negoitated

Correct, and you can bet that immigration will still be high on India's list when the UK tries to negotiate one of those great trade deals after Brexit.

An Ciarraioch

Starmer in agreement with Coveney on NI - the only problem being that Corbyn needs to be convinced:

https://mobile.twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1014588823609724928

flutered

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Danke.

Didn't realise this was on the cards already.

this law is scattering some pidgeons, methinks


s

An Ciarraioch

Still no movement on services, it would seem:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/04/mps-warn-may-tories-will-be-toast-if-reneges-on-brexit-promises

J Mysterio

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

"All of us, we are Irish." That's a very powerful message.

I love this. Reminds one of JFK's 'ich bin ein Berliner' moment.

Capt'n Midnight

Brexit: UK 'to keep more of its fish', Michael Gove says

Mr Gove said market access for fish exports - which has yet to be negotiated between the UK and the EU - would be treated separately from the question of access to each other's waters. The EU has previously suggested the two issues should be tied together.

Expect quotas to be sold to the highest bidder rather than held for small local fishermen

Also the devolved Parliaments can be overriden on this.

And of course the EU hasn't signed off on the cherry picking.



(typo - sherry picking, might be a thing ? )

An Ciarraioch

An intriguing NI poll on possible Border options, but even an electronic East-West solution seems politically unsellable:

http://theconversation.com/new-brexit-poll-finds-a-plan-for-the-irish-border-both-unionists-and-nationalists-can-agree-on-99266

Imreoir2

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

An intriguing NI poll on possible Border options, but even an electronic East-West solution seems politically unsellable:

http://theconversation.com/new-brexit-poll-finds-a-plan-for-the-irish-border-both-unionists-and-nationalists-can-agree-on-99266

They should know better than to try to solve an irrational problem with logic. Border in the Irish sea is the obvious solution, but the DUP will still never go for it.

briany

Imreoir2 wrote: »

They should know better than to try to solve an irrational problem with logic. Border in the Irish sea is the obvious solution, but the DUP will still never go for it.

We can surely see why the DUP wouldn't go for this agreement, though. The GFA guarantees parity of esteem for both identities, but those identifying as British could rightly wonder how this is if it comes to pass that they find themselves cut off economically and politically from the rest of the United Kingdom, and in a scenario that artificially hastens Irish unification. We've all seen mention of a possible return to Republican violence of one level or another if a hard border comes in on this island, but the paranoia of Loyalists is going to go through the roof in the event of sea border and they're capable of violence themselves (see the Belfast Hall flags protests and the clashes with police over parade re-routing). Any border more than there is right now in or around NI harms the conversation.

Really, the only answer as far as Ireland goes is a soft Brexit or no Brexit at all, but that's a whole other can of worms.

fash

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

fash wrote: »

A potentially innovative solution to the Northern Ireland border problem discussed here:
https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-divided-kingdom/comment-page-1/#comment-2373983

Put the border between Scotland and England.
Does need the EU to extend things a bit, but other than that, it resolves a lot.

The EU are only prepared to make a special case for NI precisely because it borders us, no chance they would extend it to Scotland. Meanwhile, it seems May is still trying to be all things to all people:

https://mobile.twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1014567427768807427

They certainly would if it involved Scotland staying in the EEA/EFTA.

Rhineshark

fash wrote: »

They certainly would if it involved Scotland staying in the EEA/EFTA.

I doubt it, unless Scotland actually left the UK. A land border between Scotland and England would also be a nightmare, albeit for a whole new set of reasons.

I don't think they're going to risk the UK demanding to stay in one country at a time and an exemption to Scotland removes the argument that NI is a unique situation, which various countries wanted reassurance on.

Dymo

I can never see Scotland leaving the UK now that it would mean a border across the land.

Nody

And now Jaguar Land Rover is the latest to join the queue of businesses Boris can tell to shut up.

Jaguar Land Rover says 'bad Brexit' would force it to stop investing in the UK

Company says it 'urgently need greater certainty' to protect jobs of its 40,000 British-based employees

"A bad Brexit deal would cost Jaguar Land Rover more than £1.2 billion profit each year.

"As a result, we would have to drastically adjust our spending profile. We have spent around £50 billion in the UK in the past five years, with plans for a further £80 billion more in the next five.

"This would be in jeopardy should we be faced with the wrong outcome.

Enzokk

The BBC has more information on the new plan the UK will present to the EU. Seems cake is very much there to be eaten and to be had.

Downing Street sets out some details of new Brexit customs plan

According to No 10, the new plan would allow the UK the freedom to set its own tariffs on goods arriving into the country.

Technology would be used to determine where the goods will ultimately end up - and therefore whether UK or EU tariffs should be paid.

Downing Street says it is confident the arrangement would be partly in place by the end of the proposed transition period in December 2020 - with the system being fully operational by the next general election.

On regulations, it is understood that the UK would closely mirror the EU's rules - but parliament would be able to decide where to deviate.

However, the arrangement has not been explained in full - and it is not clear whether the cabinet will back the plan, or whether the EU would agree.

So just to see if I have this right, they want to be have an open border with no tariffs, but only because they will set their own tariffs and will monitor the goods and determine whether there is any to be paid. This has already been rejected, but sure let them propose it again.

On regulations they will closely mirror the EU, but will decide where to deviate. So what happens when PM Johnson or PM JRM or PM Gove decide they don't want to closely mirror the EU any longer? Have they actually thought this through? Are people getting paid for presenting this as options?

VinLieger

Enzokk wrote: »

The BBC has more information on the new plan the UK will present to the EU. Seems cake is very much there to be eaten and to be had.

Downing Street sets out some details of new Brexit customs plan



So just to see if I have this right, they want to be have an open border with no tariffs, but only because they will set their own tariffs and will monitor the goods and determine whether there is any to be paid. This has already been rejected, but sure let them propose it again.

On regulations they will closely mirror the EU, but will decide where to deviate. So what happens when PM Johnson or PM JRM or PM Gove decide they don't want to closely mirror the EU any longer? Have they actually thought this through? Are people getting paid for presenting this as options?

Ahh once again we are back to the magical "technology" that doesn't exist

Nody

Enzokk wrote: »

The BBC has more information on the new plan the UK will present to the EU. Seems cake is very much there to be eaten and to be had.

Downing Street sets out some details of new Brexit customs plan



So just to see if I have this right, they want to be have an open border with no tariffs, but only because they will set their own tariffs and will monitor the goods and determine whether there is any to be paid. This has already been rejected, but sure let them propose it again.

On regulations they will closely mirror the EU, but will decide where to deviate. So what happens when PM Johnson or PM JRM or PM Gove decide they don't want to closely mirror the EU any longer? Have they actually thought this through? Are people getting paid for presenting this as options?

That is not even the best part; they openly admit that the solution will not be ready in time as well but hey, EU will surely accept the mixed solution of two solutions previously rejected, right?

Zubeneschamali

Enzokk wrote: »

Have they actually thought this through?

Either they are the world's most incompetent government, or they already know none of this is possible and they are just tapdancing for the amusement of the UK press.

Imreoir2

Enzokk wrote: »

The BBC has more information on the new plan the UK will present to the EU. Seems cake is very much there to be eaten and to be had.

Downing Street sets out some details of new Brexit customs plan



So just to see if I have this right, they want to be have an open border with no tariffs, but only because they will set their own tariffs and will monitor the goods and determine whether there is any to be paid. This has already been rejected, but sure let them propose it again.

On regulations they will closely mirror the EU, but will decide where to deviate. So what happens when PM Johnson or PM JRM or PM Gove decide they don't want to closely mirror the EU any longer? Have they actually thought this through? Are people getting paid for presenting this as options?

I think the European angle is fairly clear to be fair, the answer is no, no it will not be accepted.

Leroy42

There appears to be a collective head in the sand moment going on over in the UK (I am sure there is a psychological term for it).

Following a long battle to get information released it appears that the members of parliament really don't care about actual studies.

Brexit impact papers viewing requests made by just 6% of MPs and peers
Out of 1,450 parliamentarians, just 83 have visited the files, FoI figures show

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/05/brexit-impact-papers-viewing-requests-made-by-just-6-of-mps-and-peers

So nobody as any real idea what they are talking about. A massive decision is being put through parliament with little or no actual knowledge of what the probable outcomes of any decision will actually be.

briany

Leroy42 wrote: »

There appears to be a collective head in the sand moment going on over in the UK (I am sure there is a psychological term for it).

Following a long battle to get information released it appears that the members of parliament really don't care about actual studies.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/05/brexit-impact-papers-viewing-requests-made-by-just-6-of-mps-and-peers

So nobody as any real idea what they are talking about. A massive decision is being put through parliament with little or no actual knowledge of what the probable outcomes of any decision will actually be.

'The only thing we need to know is that we'll be out of this dreadful union!' - Peter Bone, probably.

Imreoir2

briany wrote: »

'The only thing we need to know is that we'll be out of this dreadful union!' - Peter Bone, probably.

Thats the population of NI in two years time.

Infini

Imreoir2 wrote: »

I think the European angle is fairly clear to be fair, the answer is no, no it will not be accepted.

Of course it won't be accepted. It can't be secured and it would be like a backdoor being left wide open. EU might bend rules for member's but it's strict and to the letter on 3rd parties which the UK will become. I get the feeling that this whole farce is gonna end very soon and the real shyte show is about to begin.

LuckyLloyd

Leroy42 wrote: »

There appears to be a collective head in the sand moment going on over in the UK (I am sure there is a psychological term for it).

Following a long battle to get information released it appears that the members of parliament really don't care about actual studies.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/05/brexit-impact-papers-viewing-requests-made-by-just-6-of-mps-and-peers

So nobody as any real idea what they are talking about. A massive decision is being put through parliament with little or no actual knowledge of what the probable outcomes of any decision will actually be.

Reminds me of David Davis's impressed statement of 'they read everything, they're very well informed'.

Leroy42

Infini wrote: »

Of course it won't be accepted. It can't be secured and it would be like a backdoor being left wide open. EU might bend rules for member's but it's strict and to the letter on 3rd parties which the UK will become. I get the feeling that this whole farce is gonna end very soon and the real shyte show is about to begin.

Not sure about it ending soon. Parliaments, both in the UK and Brussels, are soon to go into Summer recess. So nothing will likely happen until at least October, and I really am not expecting anything even at that stage.

The EU seem to have accepted that there is only two options. UK step down from their red lines or hard brexit. TM continues to say that all red lines will be delivered on. That leaves only hard Brexit. The only question now is whether then the hard brexit will commence on 30 March 2019 or December 2020.

The only way to postpone it is for the UK to agree to the December agreement, but that would mean separating NI from the rest of the UK, which whilst it solves our problem really only raises the probability of further problems in NI. But TM has already rules out doing that. So even the transition looks in danger.

FrancieBrady

What is the story with the Chequers thing?
Is it a one day meeting with a definitive statement or is it going to be more?

ambro25

Leroy42 wrote: »

Following a long battle to get information released it appears that the members of parliament really don't care about actual studies.

So nobody as any real idea what they are talking about. A massive decision is being put through parliament with little or no actual knowledge of what the probable outcomes of any decision will actually be.

Nothing we haven’t previously seen from the U.K. Parliament across all of (1) their vote to approve Theresa May’s triggering of Article 50, (2) their serial looking-the-other-way at repeated, serious abuses of Parliamentary process by May’s ministers over the period and, more recently, (3) their capitulation about Henry VIII powers in the EU Withdrawal Act vote.

Brits get the representation and governance they deserve, tbh.

Leroy42

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What is the story with the Chequers thing?
Is it a one day meeting with a definitive statement or is it going to be more?

From my understanding, it was originally planned as a two day event, but has been shortened.

The plan seems to be that an agreement is reached on the final position of the government on Brexit by the close of the summit. That is what TM stated in the house yesterday.

It appears that a new 3rd way has been drafted by NO 10 which is in the process of being distributed to the ministers and MP's under strict controls and it is this new policy that No 10 is putting forward at the summit.

My guess, is that this will become the governments position and when it is rejected by the EU, then the UK will opt for hard Brexit with the excuse that they tries everything else.

That guess is based on the current insanity continuing rather than someone actually taking a responsible approach.

LuckyLloyd

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Reminds me of David Davis's impressed statement of 'they read everything, they're very well informed'.

Despite everything else since that has to be my favorite one.