Brexit discussion thread IV

Rhineshark

blinding wrote: »

There has never been a Pound or Euro of Eu money spent in Britain . Britain has always contributed more than it got out . In any case the Eu has no money . They spend other peoples Money . Great racket .

Re the Immigration Controls the British Electorate gave their opinion on their governments Eu Immigration Policies in the referendum ; Answer = No thanks .

I love democracy .

See, I love history. And I happen to recall exactly how bad a state Britain was in when it joined. When it was known as the "sick man of Europe". And the rebate has to go into deprived areas. Also, CAP doesn't come from the Tories. Nor does the money that goes into places like Cornwall.

You really do make it needlessly hard for yourself by always talking in hyperbolic absolutes you know.

Also, they may have given their opinion, but it's a pity they didn't target the right group with their ire. Also a pity that it wasn't particularly democratic. Changing the rules on the electorate with an unfamiliar democratic tool to get something past Parliament (ie how they chose their democracy to work) without discussion was an travesty of democracy in this case.

Strazdas

blinding wrote: »

The Brits were given a vote on it and the said No Thanks . Democracy is the most beautiful thing . Love it .

The UK is a parliamentary democracy. British referendums are only meant to be a sideshow and to have much less power than the parliament (which is why they have been used so rarely....in the British context, they are only a glorified opinion poll).

Somehow Britain has become effed up for the last two years up by a referendum that has virtually no legal validity.

blinding

Strazdas wrote: »

The UK is a parliamentary democracy. British referendums are only meant to be a sideshow and to have much less power than the parliament (which is why they have been used so rarely....in the British context, they are only a glorified opinion poll).

Somehow Britain has become effed up for the last two years up by a referendum that has virtually no legal validity.

Cameron said this referendum was the real deal and that the Government would respect the decision of the Electorate .

I love Democracy .

blinding

trellheim wrote: »

You keep saying this. That was not an option on the vote. It was straight leave/remain. I'm going to keep calling you out on this.

The politicians have got the message . Continuing with freedom of movement is a non starter = dead duck

Imreoir2

blinding wrote: »

I haven’t checked but UKIP MEPs may well have been the majority of British MEPs .

Nope, not even close. UK has 73 MEPs, UKIP only had 24 elected, and only have 18 left now (6 decided to jump ship).

Infini

blinding wrote: »

The Brits were given a vote on it and the said No Thanks . Democracy is the most beautiful thing . Love it .

51.9/48.1 aint beautiful or a solid vote either. It was divisive and on top of that the vote itself was won on cheating and lies. Truth is it's a bad decision based on trolling and distortion of facts.

Imreoir2

blinding wrote: »

The Brits were given a vote on it and the said No Thanks . Democracy is the most beautiful thing . Love it .

Why do I get the feeling that your professed love of democracy only extends as far as the result goes your way.

blinding

Infini wrote: »

51.9/48.1 aint beautiful or a solid vote either. It was divisive and on top of that the vote itself was won on cheating and lies. Truth is it's a bad decision based on trolling and distortion of facts.

Didn’t Cameron spend 9 million of taxpayers money with his frightener leaflet .

Still didn’t work . The British People do not want to be in the Eu . The Eu is like an X that will not get the message . Please leave Britain alone . Just let them leave / escape as amicably as possible .

blinding

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Why do I get the feeling that your professed love of democracy only extends as far as the result goes your way.

No , I lost the abortion referendum and have accepted the result . I really Love democracy . Love it .

blinding

blinding wrote: »

The politicians have got the message . Continuing with freedom of movement is a non starter = dead duck

So stop asking if the EU will cover damages for what happens in Ireland in the case of a hard border. That sort of logic only really passes if the EU somehow screwed us.

You've just made is exceptionally clear that the UK voted against a core tenet of the EU, and as Leroy I think pointed out, your love of democracy would make the EU's bastardisation of that tenet unacceptable since over 400m people have signed up to it.

If you continue to try and imply that the EU has some hand in the fall out of this, you're going to have to go past simple analogies of family visits and actually start talking some Realpolitik.

Enzokk

blinding wrote: »

The Eu has huge say over your borders and what goes on there .

I know it has been addressed before, but please link to where the EU decides on whether South Africans are allowed to travel to Ireland without a visa but they need one for the UK. I am aware you probably mean FOM, but you will need to be clear in your posts. In any case, if you do mean FOM, were you aware the UK can expel EU citizens if they have not found work within 3 months of their arrival in the UK?

EdgeCase wrote: »

It's strange that she would do that but I get the impression the BBC is stuck in "we must balance all sides of debate" mode. It's a common issue that results in two sides being given equal weighting, facts and expertise get ignored.

The illustration used by Dara O'Briain is a fictional interview with a dentist where a toothiologist is brought on for balance, even though their opinions are just that and are clearly ludicrous, yet they're given equal weighting.

I saw a tweet that illustrated the solution for the BBC. If one person says it is raining and another that its not, you don't have to give both equal airtime. You look outside and dismiss the opinion of the person who is wrong. That is called journalism. The BBC gave Vote Leave a chance to defend themselves before the decision was released and is now seemingly trying to fight their corner as well to undermine the findings of the election commission.

blinding wrote: »

Democracy is absolutely brilliant . Cameron was great the way he let the British people decide how there future relationship with the Eu would be . Democracy is the most beautiful thing .

Please tell me what Brexit means. What was the choice when people decided to leave, was it leaving EURATOM? Did it include leaving EASA, what about the GFA?

Imreoir2

blinding wrote: »

Didn’t Cameron spend 9 million of taxpayers money with his frightener leaflet .

Still didn’t work . The British People do not want to be in the Eu . The Eu is like an X that will not get the message . Please leave Britain alone . Just let them leave / escape as amicably as possible .

What message has the EU not gotten? When has the EU refused to let the UK leave?

The UK will be out in March, if they dont get the message that without agreeing a withdrawl treaty, including a backstop and setteling their debts, then their economey is going to crash.

trellheim

Please tell me what Brexit means. What was the choice when people decided to leave, was it leaving EURATOM? Did it include leaving EASA, what about the GFA?

This conversation normally leads to a conversation about having cake and eating it. To some extent a brexiter who says "out with no deal, I've taken onboard all the facts and I believe I know what is best for the UK" is something to be admired .

Unfortunately these folks are like fairies... they don't exist.

trellheim

trellheim wrote: »

This conversation normally leads to a conversation about having cake and eating it. To some extent a brexiter who says "out with no deal, I've taken onboard all the facts and I believe I know what is best for the UK" is something to be admired .

Unfortunately these folks are like fairies... they don't exist.

My Brexit-voting friend who heavily regrets his vote explained that when he voted,

his American girlfriend has just been denied a work visa or whatever, so because the UK has a definite quota of immigrants, and X number that quota has to go to EU citizens, he thought that was unfair,

so he voted Leave so immigration policy was more fair to people around the world, so the best people, like his girlfriend, could move to the UK.


My brother was sitting there and the look on his face was priceless. Classic jaw-drop features going on. Immediately after the referendum, he said he voted for "something different". I guess he tried to make up the most humane and respectable reason possible, even if it's all nonsense.

No need to reply. It was a conversation that happened recently and it still breaks my brain thinking about it.

trellheim

Reminder
a:245 days from today to Brexit.
b: with no deal a border goes up in NI. The backstop does not apply to no deal.

Imreoir2

Deleted User wrote: »

My Brexit-voting friend who heavily regrets his vote explained that when he voted,

his American girlfriend has just been denied a work visa or whatever, so because the UK has a definite quota of immigrants, and X number that quota has to go to EU citizens, he thought that was unfair,

so he voted Leave so immigration policy was more fair to people around the world, so the best people, like his girlfriend, could move to the UK.


My brother was sitting there and the look on his face was priceless. Classic jaw-drop features going on. Immediately after the referendum, he said he voted for "something different". I guess he tried to make up the most humane and respectable reason possible, even if it's all nonsense.

No need to reply. It was a conversation that happened recently and it still breaks my brain thinking about it.

Not to mention all the people who voted leave "for a laugh" not thinking it would ever happen.

blinding

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Not to mention all the people who voted leave "for a laugh" not thinking it would ever happen.

You’d have to stark raving mad to vote to stay in the Eu given the chance . Its a mad house particularly with regard to Mass Immigration . Look what the Eu expected Italy to go through .

Leroy42

blinding wrote: »

You’d have to stark raving mad to vote to stay in the Eu given the chance . Its a mad house particularly with regard to Mass Immigration . Look what the Eu expected Italy to go through .

You really don't see any advantage to being in the EU?

Access to a massive market, massive trade strength to push back against the US/China blocks.

Ability to travel, to learn new cultures, new languages.

And of course the biggest single advantage, peace. We have gone from a war ravaged continent to the most peaceful period in history.

You are prepared to give all that up?

And on the mass immigration. The EU have tried, far more than the US and China, to deal with a humanitarian disaster. They have made a bit of a mess of it, but the problems in Italy are caused by the likes of the UK refusing to take their share of the problem. It is not an EU problem, it is countries such as the UK (and Ireland) refusing to help out.

You are using a humanitarian disaster to further your own political agenda. Rather can come up with a solution you blame the people trying to help.

Calina

Deleted User wrote: »

My Brexit-voting friend who heavily regrets his vote explained that when he voted,

his American girlfriend has just been denied a work visa or whatever, so because the UK has a definite quota of immigrants, and X number that quota has to go to EU citizens, he thought that was unfair,

so he voted Leave so immigration policy was more fair to people around the world, so the best people, like his girlfriend, could move to the UK.

There was no quota for EU citizens. If one wanted to move to the UK, they could. The rationale - and it was sold to the Asian ethnic community as such - that there would be more need for nonEU migration and thus easier.

Typically third party visas in most countries are limited to jobs which cannot be filled locally. Technically same here.

Igotadose

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Not to mention all the people who voted leave "for a laugh" not thinking it would ever happen.

Had a discussion on Facebooger about Brexit, with a stranger in a common hobby group. After he finally stopped talking about WWII, it came down to, "Our welfare systems a joke, everyone stays home on the dole so we need to not allow in any more immigrants so I voted Leave." When I said to him, "Brexit won't help with subcontinent immigrants, and the politicians that created your dole mess will now have to fix it," he stopped talking to me.

Really no point talking to those that voted Leave. It's like talking to members of Cult45 (Trumplodytes) in the US - it's religion, not based on fact or reason.

cml387

When the EU had its eastward expansion in 2007, many EU countries were able to insist that new accession countries workers would require work permits for up to two years (I think) afterwards. So it was within the power of individual EU states to decide. Ireland and the UK both chose unlimited access. Hardly the case that it was forced on the UK then.

blinding

Leroy42 wrote: »

You really don't see any advantage to being in the EU?

Access to a massive market, massive trade strength to push back against the US/China blocks.

Ability to travel, to learn new cultures, new languages.

And of course the biggest single advantage, peace. We have gone from a war ravaged continent to the most peaceful period in history.

You are prepared to give all that up?

And on the mass immigration. The EU have tried, far more than the US and China, to deal with a humanitarian disaster. They have made a bit of a mess of it, but the problems in Italy are caused by the likes of the UK refusing to take their share of the problem. It is not an EU problem, it is countries such as the UK (and Ireland) refusing to help out.

You are using a humanitarian disaster to further your own political agenda. Rather can come up with a solution you blame the people trying to help.

The EEC was well enough for me . I don’t want to be part of a Superstate . I don’t want Mass Immigration of any type in to my Country .

Anthracite

blinding wrote: »

You’d have to stark raving mad to vote to stay in the Eu given the chance . Its a mad house particularly with regard to Mass Immigration . Look what the Eu expected Italy to go through .

What did the EU expect Italy to go through?

(not sure why I'm asking, you'll ignore this engagement just as you've ignored all the rest)

blinding

cml387 wrote: »

When the EU had its eastward expansion in 2007, many EU countries were able to insist that new accession countries workers would require work permits for up to two years (I think) afterwards. So it was within the power of individual EU states to decide. Ireland and the UK both chose unlimited access. Hardly the case that it was forced on the UK then.

Isn’t that Potential opt out long gone ?

Imreoir2

blinding wrote: »

The EEC was well enough for me . I don’t want to be part of a Superstate . I don’t want Mass Immigration of any type in to my Country .

What mass immigration? Immigration levels to and from Ireland are stable and relativly mild. Being in the EU allows Irish people to live and work in 27 countries. It also allows people from 27 countries to live and work here, creating job opportunities and economic growth for everyone.

THe UK leaving the EU wont stop immigration, but it will cause economic damage and huge numbers of job losses.

blinding

Anthracite wrote: »

What did the EU expect Italy to go through?

(not sure why I'm asking, you'll ignore this engagement just as you've ignored all the rest)

It expected Italy to keep taking huge Numbers of Immigrants from across the Mediterranean sea. No country was going to carry on with that indefinitely . The Italians should have stopped it much sooner .

Leroy42

blinding wrote: »

The EEC was well enough for me . I don’t want to be part of a Superstate . I don’t want Mass Immigration of any type in to my Country .

Even if any of that was actually based in reality, doesn't your love of democracy mean that you accept that it is the wish of the majority.

I starting to think that maybe you really don't love democracy at all.

blinding

Imreoir2 wrote: »

What mass immigration? Immigration levels to and from Ireland are stable and relativly mild. Being in the EU allows Irish people to live and work in 27 countries. It also allows people from 27 countries to live and work here, creating job opportunities and economic growth for everyone.

THe UK leaving the EU wont stop immigration, but it will cause economic damage and huge numbers of job losses.

The British people have made it quite clear they do not want Mass immigration from the Eu . The British Politicians have got the message .

blinding

Leroy42 wrote: »

Even if any of that was actually based in reality, doesn't your love of democracy mean that you accept that it is the wish of the majority.

I starting to think that maybe you really don't love democracy at all.

Oh I love democracy . I love the democracy of the Eu referendum . The people telling the Politicians what they want them to do . Its beautiful , gorgeous , lovely .

FrancieBrady

blinding wrote: »

The British people have made it quite clear they do not want Mass immigration from the Eu . The British Politicians have got the message .

So explain why May climbed down on EU migrant rights if she 'had got the message'?