Brexit discussion thread IV

Chips Lovell · 31-07-2018 9:59am

That's very unlikely to happen. There isn't a single party who'll halt Brexit without a second referendum.

FrancieBrady · 31-07-2018 9:59am

blinding wrote: »

If Brexit is stopped with out a second Referendum or a General Election where the winning party of parties have a different manifesto that states clearly that they are now for remaining in the Eu , Democracy will have Fallen in Britain .

No, it wouldn't. Democracy in Britain decrees that a referendum is 'non-binding'.

The Tories would be going back on their word, that is all, full stop.

Akrasia · 31-07-2018 10:07am

blinding wrote: »

In the General election 84% of Voters voted for Parties that said they would respect the referendum result .

.

I hate this statistic. There were an awful lot of people who voted for labour because they thought they were their best chance of getting a 2nd referendum or the softest possible brexit. If it wasn't for the effing DUP they might have achieved this.

In a 2 party dominated FPTP system people often have to vote the lesser of two evils to prevent the party or candidate they really hate from getting into power.

lawred2 · 31-07-2018 10:08am

Heard a snippet on the radio this morning (so forgive me the absence of a link) but I'd swear I heard that certain Brexit MPs are accusing the Irish Government of conspiring with Patrick Coveney the Greencore CEO through the British Sandwich Board to spread stories about shortages of fresh food post Brexit...

That's many levels of crazy if true

I'll see if I can find something

edit - found something https://twitter.com/KeohaneDan/status/1024068176081035264

Frank Bullitt · 31-07-2018 10:08am

Strazdas wrote: »

I saw the interview. Very telling that Emily angrily told this nutcase he was churning out platitudes when he referred to "respecting the will of the people". It might just be starting to dawn on the mainstream media that they are dealing with a loony religious cult every time they invite a Brexiteer on.

For anyone that would like to see this, i'ts really something.

Leroy42 · 31-07-2018 10:08am

blinding wrote: »

If Brexit is stopped with out a second Referendum or a General Election where the winning party of parties have a different manifesto that states clearly that they are now for remaining in the Eu , Democracy will have Fallen in Britain .

Yeah, so you keep saying, but nobody, nobody at all, is calling for that.

A second ref is being asked for, a soft brexit is being asked for, a vote on the final deal is being asked for.

All of these things are actually what a true democracy is.

Why are you bringing up a hypothetical situation that nobody is even calling for and then knocking your own creation down?

blinding · 31-07-2018 10:10am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No, it wouldn't. Democracy in Britain decrees that a referendum is 'non-binding'.

The Tories would be going back on their word, that is all, full stop.

Cameron could not have been clearer in the £ 9 million leaflet .

In the following election people voted 84% for parties that said they would respect the result of the Election .

Were Brexit not to happen in this situation Democracy would have fallen .

Leroy42 · 31-07-2018 10:12am

blinding wrote: »

Cameron could not have been clearer in the £ 9 million leaflet .

In the following election people voted 84% for parties that said they would respect the result of the Election .

Were Brexit not to happen in this situation Democracy would have fallen .

Again, can you point to anybody who is asking for Brexit to be stopped without a 2nd ref or a GE or Parliament having a vote?

blinding · 31-07-2018 10:13am

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

That's very unlikely to happen. There isn't a single party who'll halt Brexit without a second referendum.

I certainly hope not . I would trust a Blairite Labour Party on anything if they were to gain control of that Party . Thankfully they are not in Power at the moment !

Peregrinus · 31-07-2018 10:16am

So, basically, if something you think won't happen does happen, democracy will fall?

blinding · 31-07-2018 10:16am

Leroy42 wrote: »

Again, can you point to anybody who is asking for Brexit to be stopped without a 2nd ref or a GE or Parliament having a vote?

There has been all sorts of political shenanigans to do exactly that particularly in the Unelected House of Lords = Not real democrats .

Thankfully the British People will not allow Democracy to Fall in their Country .

Democracy is way more important than the eu .

FrancieBrady · 31-07-2018 10:18am

blinding wrote: »

Cameron could not have been clearer in the £ 9 million leaflet .

In the following election people voted 84% for parties that said they would respect the result of the Election .

Were Brexit not to happen in this situation Democracy would have fallen .

Cameron was a Tory, Yes?

The Tories would be going back on their promise about a 'non-binding' referendum.

That is all.

Look up the meaning of 'non-binding'. There is nothing undemocratic about choosing the 'unbinding' option.

Water John · 31-07-2018 10:19am

In the UK democaracy is simple in one context. Citizens elect MPs who have complete power to decide the Laws and Treaties of the country.
So MPs decide, can change their minds, force the Govn't of the day etc. Parliament is sovereign. So democracy is fine.

blinding · 31-07-2018 10:20am

Peregrinus wrote: »

So, basically, if something you think won't happen does happen, democracy will fall?

There has been all sorts of nefarious tactics afoot to thwart the will of the People .

The house of Lords are not supposed to go against the General election Manifesto of the ruling party / parties . They have gone against this in a big way .

Leroy42 · 31-07-2018 10:20am

blinding wrote: »

There has been all sorts of political shenanigans to do exactly that particularly in the Unelected House of Lords = Not real democrats .

Thankfully the British People will not allow Democracy to Fall in their Country .

Democracy is way more important than the eu .

The house of Lords called for the cancellation of Brexit?

And that was passed into law? Really? I missed that

Or maybe they made suggestion, as is their remit as part of the democratic process in the UK which includes oversight, and those were rejected by the democratically elected House of Commons.

So any actual names at all.

Leroy42 · 31-07-2018 10:22am

blinding wrote: »

There has been all sorts of nefarious tactics afoot to thwart the will of the People .

The house of Lords are not supposed to go against the General election Manifesto of the ruling party / parties . They have gone against this in a big way .

Not supposed? What does that mean? Does it mean they cannot question? And in the end they can only suggest, it is the Commons, and the majority, that make any final decisions. The Lords is toothless.

kunst nugget · 31-07-2018 10:23am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Cameron was a Tory, Yes?

The Tories would be going back on their promise about a 'non-binding' referendum.

That is all.

Look up the meaning of 'non-binding'. There is nothing undemocratic about choosing the 'unbinding' option.

Seriously, if the Tories turned around and said we've changed our mind, we're not going to follow the referendum result now because it's non-binding they would be annihilated even if public opinion had swung firmly to staying in the EU. They only way out for them is a second referendum but that also leads them into the same criticism that the Irish government got of 'keep holding referendums until you get the right result'.

The thing is, the ERG will frustrate any attempt to hold a second referendum until it is too late.

blinding · 31-07-2018 10:23am

Akrasia wrote: »

I hate this statistic. There were an awful lot of people who voted for labour because they thought they were their best chance of getting a 2nd referendum or the softest possible brexit. If it wasn't for the effing DUP they might have achieved this.

In a 2 party dominated FPTP system people often have to vote the lesser of two evils to prevent the party or candidate they really hate from getting into power.

There was none of that in the Labour party Manifesto . Respecting the Vote of the Referendum was .

Hurrache · 31-07-2018 10:23am

lawred2 wrote: »

Heard a snippet on the radio this morning (so forgive me the absence of a link) but I'd swear I heard that certain Brexit MPs are accusing the Irish Government of conspiring with Patrick Coveney the Greencore CEO through the British Sandwich Board to spread stories about shortages of fresh food post Brexit...

That's many levels of crazy if true

I'll see if I can find something

He then posts that video on his own Twitter feed as if somehow it makes him look good, bizzare.

jooksavage · 31-07-2018 10:26am

It's a bit rich to bring in the "will of the people" when talking about a narrow vote margin from 2 years ago, long before soft-brext/hard-brexit/Canada-plus model/no-deal were even concepts and practically every poll for the last four months has turned sharply against the whole thing.

blinding · 31-07-2018 10:27am

Leroy42 wrote: »

Yeah, so you keep saying, but nobody, nobody at all, is calling for that.

A second ref is being asked for, a soft brexit is being asked for, a vote on the final deal is being asked for.

All of these things are actually what a true democracy is.

Why are you bringing up a hypothetical situation that nobody is even calling for and then knocking your own creation down?

A soft Brexit was not on offer in the referendum . Mr Cameron made this clear .

Neither the Labour Party or the Conservative party (total 84% vote ) had anything about a soft Brexit in their manifestos . They actually explicitly said they would respect the Cameron Referendum .

Hurrache · 31-07-2018 10:30am

blinding wrote: »

A soft Brexit was not on offer in the referendum

So tell us exactly what sort of Brexit was documented as being the one that was voted on?

blinding · 31-07-2018 10:30am

Leroy42 wrote: »

Not supposed? What does that mean? Does it mean they cannot question? And in the end they can only suggest, it is the Commons, and the majority, that make any final decisions. The Lords is toothless.

Its a convention that the House of Lords will not go against anything that was in the ruling parties General Election Manifestos . Its a respecter of democracy = The people have voted on this sort of thing and of course they are more important than the un-elected Lords .

Leroy42 · 31-07-2018 10:32am

Cameron lost the argument, so the majority didn't go with him

But now the losing side gets to be the ones to be listened to.

Again, please explain what the ref actual said in terms of Brexit.

I have provided you with the actual question, it was simply do you want to leave the EU. That can be achieved by joining the EEA, or Norway. Nowhere did it mention red lines.

Where is the £350m pw people did vote for? How does leaving the NI open and not imposing any tariffs or checking any goods coming into Uk tie in with taking back control?

blinding · 31-07-2018 10:32am

Hurrache wrote: »

So tell us exactly what sort of Brexit was documented as being the one that was voted on?

Google Cameron's Leaflet on Brexit . He could not have made it clearer what voting for Brexit meant .

lawred2 · 31-07-2018 10:34am

blinding wrote: »

A soft Brexit was not on offer in the referendum . Mr Cameron made this clear .

Neither the Labour Party or the Conservative party (total 84% vote ) had anything about a soft Brexit in their manifestos . They actually explicitly said they would respect the Cameron Referendum .

where and when?

trellheim · 31-07-2018 10:34am

A soft Brexit was not on offer in the referendum . Mr Cameron made this clear .

Neither the Labour Party or the Conservative party (total 84% vote ) had anything about a soft Brexit in their manifestos . They actually explicitly said they would respect the Cameron Referendum .

And so what ? Now that it has become abundantly clear that Brexit is an exercise in Tory party politics fuelled by Daily Mail "de immigrants tuk ur jobs" media, the outcome of which can only be catastrophic for UK , it seems democratic enough to go

"hang on a second you never said any of that, thats horrendous, lets take another look at this"

Hurrache · 31-07-2018 10:34am

blinding wrote: »

Google Cameron's Leaflet on Brexit . He could not have made it clearer what voting for Brexit meant .

That's not what I asked.

Show us the referendum documentation which explicitly outlined what the people were ticking the Yes/No box for in the polling booth.

Leroy42 · 31-07-2018 10:35am

blinding wrote: »

Google Cameron's Leaflet on Brexit . He could not have made it clearer what voting for Brexit meant .

Cameron lost. Why are you bringing him up. I don't understand. Do you think the losing party in a GE should dictate government policy?

blinding · 31-07-2018 10:37am

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/515068/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk.pdf

This is Cameron's Leaflet on Brexit sent to every house at a cost of £ 9 million .

Even with all this the People voted for Brexit . There is no basis what so ever that the People Voted for a soft Brexit .

Brexit discussion thread IV

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