Brexit discussion thread IV

seamus

Leroy42 wrote: »

We (EU passport holders) will expect that the UK people cannot simply join our queue at the control wouldn't we?

Only if it makes sense to segregate them tbh.

I would expect the line in Dublin Airport to say "EU & UK Passport holders" come 31st March next year, and I wouldn't be at all annoyed about it. Because it doesn't seem to me to make much sense to make them queue at the "all others" line when the CTA still applies.

An Claidheamh

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/clive-bull/brexiteer-has-solution-irish-border-problem-war/



What could possibly go wrong?

trellheim

UK nationals do not have to show any passport at all currently ( off a UK flight to Ireland ) same way we don't have to show one inbound into the UK. This is not supposed to change.

lawred2

seamus wrote: »

Leroy42 wrote: »

We (EU passport holders) will expect that the UK people cannot simply join our queue at the control wouldn't we?

Only if it makes sense to segregate them tbh.

I would expect the line in Dublin Airport to say "EU & UK Passport holders" come 31st March next year, and I wouldn't be at all annoyed about it. Because it doesn't seem to me to make much sense to make them queue at the "all others" line when the CTA still applies.

There could be a UK passport holder line however

Spook_ie

Don't see any reason for passport controls to change post Brexit unless Ireland signs up to Schengen in which case they would have to put up a passport control.

Charles Babbage

seamus wrote: »

Only if it makes sense to segregate them tbh.

I would expect the line in Dublin Airport to say "EU & UK Passport holders" come 31st March next year, and I wouldn't be at all annoyed about it. Because it doesn't seem to me to make much sense to make them queue at the "all others" line when the CTA still applies.

The EU might not be happy with randomers getting into the EU queue.

Peregrinus

Leroy42 wrote: »

TBF, if I was a UK citizen I would expect there to be a separate line. Why should they have to queue with the people that need visas?

The proposal isn't to separate those who need visas and those who don't. It's to separate UK passport holders from all others, regardless of whether those others need visas or not.

Leroy42 wrote: »

TM is right on this. It might the the only thing they can actually point to as being a Brexit dividend.

Well, yes, in so far as the blue passport seem to be the only positive that can be seen as emerging from Brexit.

Of course, that's pretty damning, when you consider (a) that they could have had a blue passport any time they wanted, without troubling about Brexit, and (b) the colour of the cover is a pretty trivial thing.

But, yeah, May reckons that the extra-special specialness of the blue passport is underlined if it gets you into a line that's only for extra-special people who have blue passports. What an exclusive benefit! The fact that being in this line doesn't confer any concrete advantage in terms of queuing or processing time just underlines the point that the benefit of the blue passport is entirely illusory.

Peregrinus

Charles Babbage wrote: »

The EU might not be happy with randomers getting into the EU queue.

The EU is fine with the continuation of the CTA, so won['t object to UK passport holders being handled along with Irish (and therefore EU) passport holders at Irish ports.

By the same token, if the UK does proceed to have a separate line for UK passport holders, assuming the CTA continues then Irish passport holders can join that one. Though, by all accounts, it may be quicker to join the other one.

Spook_ie

Anyways your more likely to be delayed by a RyanAir strike ( probably)

ancapailldorcha

An Claidheamh wrote: »

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/clive-bull/brexiteer-has-solution-irish-border-problem-war/



What could possibly go wrong?

Please don't just dump links here please without any sort of opinion or comment.

Spook_ie

A thought just struck me about the missing labor for picking fruit n veg after Brexit, just get all the people serving community sentances out picking the fruit n veg. Simple problem meets simple solution.

LeinsterDub

Spook_ie wrote: »

A thought just struck me about the missing labor for picking fruit n veg after Brexit, just get all the people serving community sentances out picking the fruit n veg. Simple problem meets simple solution.

Picking fruit is extremely hard back breaking work. The people who are currently doing it work extremely hard because they are paid by the kilo. Do you honestly expect some lad on community service to pick anywhere near as much?

Spook_ie

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Picking fruit is extremely hard back breaking work. The people who are currently doing it work extremely hard because they are paid by the kilo. Do you honestly expect some lad on community service to pick anywhere near as much?

Yeah I would as I'd sentance them to pick (for arguments sake) 25Kg, if they did it in a day they get off early if it takes them 5 days well that's their fault and they spend 5 days.

In fact it sounds so good we should introduce it here

MBSnr

trellheim wrote: »

UK nationals do not have to show any passport at all currently ( off a UK flight to Ireland ) same way we don't have to show one inbound into the UK. This is not supposed to change.

Wait a sec - That's not true. Any incoming flight to Ireland that I've been on (Shannon/Knock/Dublin) from the UK requires all passengers to show their passport, as there is no dedicated channel for UK only flights in any of these airports.

Flying to the UK, however, you can walk off the plane straight out into arrivals as they have a dedicated channel for Irish originating flights - CTA agreement.

Imreoir2

Spook_ie wrote: »

Yeah I would as I'd sentance them to pick (for arguments sake) 25Kg, if they did it in a day they get off early if it takes them 5 days well that's their fault and they spend 5 days.

In fact it sounds so good we should introduce it here

Why not put chains on them while we are at it?

Community service works because no one makes a profit from it. The US penal system is already slipping back into parctices that are closer to the slavery system of old than a modern correctional system. You can imagine Gardaí being sent out to round up x number of able bodied men and charge them with whatever spurious crime they can stick on them to keep a farm or a mine or whatever staffed. I won't have that coming to our shores, and the British would be fools to allow it there either.

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Please don't just dump links here please without any sort of opinion or comment.

Link dump deleted. No more please.

Spook_ie

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Why not put chains on them while we are at it?

Community service works because no one makes a profit from it. The US penal system is already slipping back into parctices that are closer to the slavery system of old than a modern correctional system. You can imagine Gardaí being sent out to round up x number of able bodied men and charge them with whatever spurious crime they can stick on them to keep a farm or a mine or whatever staffed. I won't have that coming to our shores, and the British would be fools to allow it there either.

It would be a punishment imposed by a court not by a Gard. Which do you think an OAP would feel the better, a community order to a mugger helping out painting some old dears fence or in a field picking a specified amount of produce?

Doesn't need any chains anyway because until you've picked the sentance imposed you don't get off.

Too many do gooders letting feral scum off with a slap of the wrist IMO but we digress from Brexit to what's wrong with Ireland's Yob culture and how to punish them. So I'll leave it there.

Imreoir2

Spook_ie wrote: »

It would be a punishment imposed by a court not by a Gard. Which do you think an OAP would feel the better, a community order to a mugger helping out painting some old dears fence or in a field picking a specified amount of produce?

Doesn't need any chains anyway because until you've picked the sentance imposed you don't get off.

Too many do gooders letting feral scum off with a slap of the wrist IMO but we digress from Brexit to what's wrong with Ireland's Yob culture and how to punish them. So I'll leave it there.

The penal system and private profit should be kept well seperated. If an industry relys on forced labour to function, then there will be pressure to ensure that the supply of labour remains constant. This opens up the potential for the system to be corrupted to meet this need. There are too many examples of abuse when personal gain is brought into the system.

You can call me a "do godder" for recognising this potential for abuse, and wanting to ensure the system is designed in such a way as to prevent this corruption, if you like. I don't really care.

An Ciarraioch

YouGov released a survey today - it appears the opening for a new political party in the UK is on the right, with voters feeling that the justice system isn't harsh enough, immigration should be tightened, and benefits are too generous:

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2018/08/01/where-most-fertile-ground-new-party/

Strazdas

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

YouGov released a survey today - it appears the opening for a new political party in the UK is on the right, with voters feeling that the justice system isn't harsh enough, immigration should be tightened, and benefits are too generous:

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2018/08/01/where-most-fertile-ground-new-party/

The laugh is their benefits system is not generous at all. It's one of the worst in the developed world.

Leroy42

Project fear has been replaced by project reality. Not as catchy, I'll admit, but it seems the reports about tailbacks and food shortages might indeed be based on actual evidence and expert opinion rather than simply hope and belief!

When he was speaking to reporters after his meeting with his Austrian counterpart Karin Kneissl, Jeremy Hunt, the foreign secretary, also dismissed claims that British government warnings about the consequences of a no deal Brexit amounted to scaremongering. According to the Reuters report, he said:

This is not project fear, this is project reality. We have to make a decision on Britain’s future relationship with the EU by the end of this year and we have to be very honest with ourselves about the choices that we face.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/aug/01/chequers-brexit-plan-would-cost-economy-equivalent-of-500-per-head-says-thinktank-politics-live

trellheim

Wait a sec - That's not true. Any incoming flight to Ireland that I've been on (Shannon/Knock/Dublin) from the UK requires all passengers to show their passport, as there is no dedicated channel for UK only flights in any of these airports.

Flying to the UK, however, you can walk off the plane straight out into arrivals as they have a dedicated channel for Irish originating flights - CTA agreement.

`

With respect, you are wrong. Irish and UK nationals do not need to show any passport whatsoever if you land from a CTA flight or ferry. Just because we apply the CTA rules differently does not change that. UK have dedicated bypasses for UK and Ireland flights. Ireland have decided not to ( huge argument in the Aviation forum, many here will know it ) , but that does not change the essence of the rule; you dont' need to show a passport. Ryanair require you to have one to travel with them on CTA flights but thats just them - you don't need it for Aer Lingus, BA, Flybe, Cityjet, or getting on the ferry in Holyhead.

For example present a driving license at the hatch - they may ask you for a boarding pass to prove you came off a CTA flight but there is no requirement for passport card or passport.

MBSnr

trellheim wrote: »

`

With respect, you are wrong. Irish and UK nationals do not need to show any passport whatsoever if you land from a CTA flight or ferry. Just because we apply the CTA rules differently does not change that. UK have dedicated bypasses for UK and Ireland flights. Ireland have decided not to ( huge argument in the Aviation forum, many here will know it ) , but that does not change the essence of the rule; you dont' need to show a passport. Ryanair require you to have one to travel with them on CTA flights but thats just them - you don't need it for Aer Lingus, BA, Flybe, Cityjet, or getting on the ferry in Holyhead.

For example present a driving license at the hatch - they may ask you for a boarding pass to prove you came off a CTA flight but there is no requirement for passport card or passport.

Ok - Your initial post suggested otherwise as it was not clear you meant that Ireland applied the CTA rules differently...

trellheim

Dont mistake whats going on as anything other than frantically trying to find a workable brexit that avoids the beans and shotguns

Strazdas

trellheim wrote: »

`

With respect, you are wrong. Irish and UK nationals do not need to show any passport whatsoever if you land from a CTA flight or ferry. Just because we apply the CTA rules differently does not change that. UK have dedicated bypasses for UK and Ireland flights. Ireland have decided not to ( huge argument in the Aviation forum, many here will know it ) , but that does not change the essence of the rule; you dont' need to show a passport. Ryanair require you to have one to travel with them on CTA flights but thats just them - you don't need it for Aer Lingus, BA, Flybe, Cityjet, or getting on the ferry in Holyhead.

For example present a driving license at the hatch - they may ask you for a boarding pass to prove you came off a CTA flight but there is no requirement for passport card or passport.

You must have proper photo ID though such as a Public Service Card or international student card, otherwise they won't allow you board a flight.

trellheim

You must have proper photo ID though such as a Public Service Card or international student card, otherwise they won't allow you board a flight.

Thats true but its an airline requirement not an immigration one. For example you can get on the train from Belfast to Connolly and you'll not see any immigration checks( most of the time).

( PS this also stops John Smith type ticketing , for example my job could buy 50 gatwick flights for 50 quid under the name of John Smith and hand them out to people as needed but you can't do this as you need photo ID that matches . See high name change fees for all airlines. )

Imreoir2

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Didnt they have (mostly black) prisoners in Mississippi working on picking cotton, I mean the optics of that in context of history.

I suppose next he would recommend they send prisoners to Australia or something, I mean Brexiteers really do want to go back in time

They still have a system like that working today is some places. I remember hearing about a story of a young black man being arrested and scentenced to six months in jail for loitering in Florida as recently as the 50's. The county did not even bother to have a jail, all prisoners were rented out to the local lumber mill. The young man in question did not survive the brutal corporal punishment (torture system including whiping) that was legally in place to correct misbehaviour on the job.

There was even a while when itinerancy was illegal, aka if you could not prove that you had a job, you would be arrested and forced to work for a company that would make profit from your labour.

That some people want to start down that kind of path boggels the mind. You have to wonder if there is anything that is beyond justification in the Brexit fantisy world.

McGiver

Strazdas wrote: »

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

YouGov released a survey today - it appears the opening for a new political party in the UK is on the right, with voters feeling that the justice system isn't harsh enough, immigration should be tightened, and benefits are too generous:

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2018/08/01/where-most-fertile-ground-new-party/

The laugh is their benefits system is not generous at all. It's one of the worst in the developed world.

That's not entirely true. It's just not well designed. I never understood the "In Work Benefits" - somebody who works is getting a top up from the government as a welfare payment - that makes no sense. The Government should better ensure sufficient enough minimum wage instead of this system. Or use tax credits for low earners, that is a better system than keeping wages low and then trying to balance that with welfare payments.

Their cover in unemployment is quite bad, very low, even compared to Ireland. Their pensions are much better than in Ireland. In fact, Ireland has the worst pension cover in OECD.

Overall, including pensions, they spend more as a % of GDP than Ireland. Actually, Irish welfare payment as a % of GDP is in the lowest third in EU 28. If you discount the pensions then it's kind of mid-tier and more or less in line with the UK.

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=File:Total_general_government_expenditure_on_social_protection,_2016_(%25_of_GDP).png

Strazdas

McGiver wrote: »

That's not entirely true. It's just not well designed. I never understood the "In Work Benefits" - somebody who works is getting a top up from the government as a welfare payment - that makes no sense. The Government should better ensure sufficient enough minimum wage instead of this system. Or use tax credits for low earners, that is a better system than keeping wages low and then trying to balance that with welfare payments.

Their cover in unemployment is quite bad, very low, even compared to Ireland. Their pensions are much better than in Ireland. In fact, Ireland has the worst pension cover in OECD.

Overall, including pensions, they spend more as a % of GDP than Ireland. Actually, Irish welfare payment as a % of GDP is in the lowest third in EU 28. If you discount the pensions then it's kind of mid-tier and more or less in line with the UK.

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=File:Total_general_government_expenditure_on_social_protection,_2016_(%25_of_GDP).png

You're talking about the old age pension? The full rate in the UK is £164 per week and the basic is £126.

Leroy42

Rumours are starting, denied by Germany, that the EU is willing to give a 'vague' deal on the future relationship to avoid no deal.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/01/german-sources-deny-brexit-deal-offer-amid-panic-in-remain-campaign

It is always likely that the EU will compromise to avoid a crash out, which whilst bad for the UK is also bad for the EU and doesn't look good either.

What do people think the EU will concede in order to get a deal?

By bet would be a open ended acceptance of common regulations allowing trade to continue as it currently does with the idea that this will be part of a negotiation over time, certainly the transition period, but possibly longer.

But the trade off is that UK get to leave and remove their MEPs and don't get involved in the next budget round.