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Brexit discussion thread IV
Comments
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According to BBC review of the papers story came from a quote from
David Campbell Bannerman MEP and former leader of UKIP.
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Still nothing outside British press yet so I'm very dubious about it.
Mad conspiracy theory moment - leaked by the British government to stabilise Sterling as it hits the psychological impact rate of €1 = 90p and given some other volatility stuff going on today and tomorrow. Kick the can to the weekend and ... Well, I have no idea but they do seem to be making it up as they go along anyway. I could nearly see them thinking that this was a sensible notion.0 -
FrancieBrady wrote: »According to BBC review of the papers story came from a quote from
David Campbell Bannerman MEP and former leader of UKIP.
Oh for crissakes.
Well, there goes my lovely conspiracy theory! Just some idiot saying something he shouldn't.
Edit: This idiot specifically;
"I think it [the Treason Act] should extend to those undermining UK interests through extreme undemocratic loyalty to other states including the EU superstate."0 -
Rhineshark wrote: »Mad conspiracy theory moment - leaked by the British government to stabilise Sterling as it hits the psychological impact rate of €1 = 90p and given some other volatility stuff going on today and tomorrow. Kick the can to the weekend and ... Well, I have no idea but they do seem to be making it up as they go along anyway. I could nearly see them thinking that this was a sensible notion.
Honestly, anything is plausible right now. You really couldn't make it up. UK Parliament established the legal basis for the Brexit referendum in May 2015. It's just been one incredible, drawn out car crash since then. Grotesque, Unbelievable, Bizarre, Unprecedented.
I've been obsessing over this for three ****ıng years now and it just keeps snowballing. I vividly remember being glued to the TV that night in June 2016. I couldn't believe it. I was in a literal state of shock for a few months after that I think.
The sheer amount of news on this in the interim has kept this thread absolutely flying. The quality of debate and the level of insight here has been great. But the news though... it feels like there has barely been a day go by without-
* A misleading/ outright false/ deliberately provocative/ insulting article on the front of a/several UK paper(s)
* A misleading/ outright false/ deliberately provocative/ insulting comment by a/several UK politican(s)
* some scandal involving any number of departments in UK government, involving deciet, or gross incompetence
* infighting amongst UK parties on what they want, infighting within UK parties and infighting within UK cabinet.
* etc. etc.
Can you imagine what they will write about this in history books in a 100 years? We are actually witnessing a pivotal moment in world history and maybe the most critical point in the UK's history, the moment they destroyed themselves. We are actually on the cusp of the Mad Max wasteland.
I have to remind myself about the ordinary and good people in the UK - nice mothers and children or whatever - cos otherwise it would be very easy to feel no sympathy whatsoever given how the UK political class have carried on. Shameful.
It is actually scary for the country. I asked an English colleague today if his family in the UK were thinking of stock piling supplies, he said his mother - who voted leave - thought they should 'just get on with it.'0 -
Rhineshark wrote: »Oh for crissakes.
Well, there goes my lovely conspiracy theory! Just some idiot saying something he shouldn't.
Edit: This idiot specifically;
"I think it [the Treason Act] should extend to those undermining UK interests through extreme undemocratic loyalty to other states including the EU superstate."
If British papers turned a crazy UKIP guy into an "EU source" because he is an MEP, then the phrase "paper never refused ink" has been brought to a new level.0 -
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FrancieBrady wrote: »According to BBC review of the papers story came from a quote from
David Campbell Bannerman MEP and former leader of UKIP.
This whole Brexit thing has become an episode of Black mirror0 -
J Mysterio wrote: »Can you imagine what they will write about this in history books in a 100 years? We are actually witnessing a pivotal moment in world history and maybe the most critical point in the UK's history, the moment they destroyed themselves. We are actually on the cusp of the Mad Max wasteland.
I have to remind myself about the ordinary and good people in the UK - nice mothers and children or whatever - cos otherwise it would be very easy to feel no sympathy whatsoever given how the UK political class have carried on. Shameful.
It is actually scary for the country. I asked an English colleague today if his family in the UK were thinking of stock piling supplies, he said his mother - who voted leave - thought they should 'just get on with it.'
It's like with Trump, I'm hoping it'll just be a paragraph in the history books. :P I get your point though, it's fascinating to think how this will be thought of years from now. I suppose it's hard to compare with stuff from before the internet/TV/newspapers with just how much information is available as it happens.0 -
J Mysterio wrote: »Honestly, anything is plausible right now. You really couldn't make it up. UK Parliament established the legal basis for the Brexit referendum in May 2015. It's just been one incredible, drawn out car crash since then. Grotesque, Unbelievable, Bizarre, Unprecedented.
I've been obsessing over this for three ****ıng years now and it just keeps snowballing. I vividly remember being glued to the TV that night in June 2016. I couldn't believe it. I was in a literal state of shock for a few months after that I think.
The sheer amount of news on this in the interim has kept this thread absolutely flying. The quality of debate and the level of insight here has been great. But the news though... it feels like there has barely been a day go by without-
* A misleading/ outright false/ deliberately provocative/ insulting article on the front of a/several UK paper(s)
* A misleading/ outright false/ deliberately provocative/ insulting comment by a/several UK politican(s)
* some scandal involving any number of departments in UK government, involving deciet, or gross incompetence
* infighting amongst UK parties on what they want, infighting within UK parties and infighting within UK cabinet.
* etc. etc.
Can you imagine what they will write about this in history books in a 100 years? We are actually witnessing a pivotal moment in world history and maybe the most critical point in the UK's history, the moment they destroyed themselves. We are actually on the cusp of the Mad Max wasteland.
I have to remind myself about the ordinary and good people in the UK - nice mothers and children or whatever - cos otherwise it would be very easy to feel no sympathy whatsoever given how the UK political class have carried on. Shameful.
It is actually scary for the country. I asked an English colleague today if his family in the UK were thinking of stock piling supplies, he said his mother - who voted leave - thought they should 'just get on with it.'
It's nuts, isn't it? I stayed up for that one too with a deepening sense of oh **** from Sunderland onwards.
Although for me Brexit faded in its quieter moments behind the other pivotal generational moment for the anglosphere - Trump and his shenanigans. I'd pay attention when something happened and hunted books about the whole mad situation - Ian Dunt's, Tony Connolly's and Shipman's two on how the Tory party so monumentally screwed up are all worth reading, especially Connolly's Irish perspective, but Trump was a constant barrage there for a while.
But there's another nation with a semi-manufactured (but triggered something there, there was the potential, may have needed a kick to start) generational crisis. We are living in interesting times alright. It's like the Stupid Apocalypse. The fall of the west if everyone was on novocaine and/or coke while trying to do it. Which, hey, may save either country still. But seriously, this slow-rolling omnishambles is not a dignified period of history!
The disinformation campaign has done the damage. I think that will be a very long-lasting after-effect of these few nutcase years. That sort of damage doesn't fix easily. But both social crises laid bare something already there but that was exacerbated amongst the people in Britain by 40 years of lies and an austerity campaign by the Tories that is actually killing people and has left all social functions and provision in the UK on the brink of collapse. And ofc continued to redirect all blame onto convenient Brussels while taking credit for anything people would be in favour of. In the US, it was exacerbated by a complex range of social, economic and even religious issues (prosperity gospal, not Islam). And both have their rapacious wealthy uppercrusts deeply mired in politics that might as well be aristocrats for their attitudes and who have caused enormous damage in their efforts to destroy social provisions and increase the wealth gap.
But both were goaded on by incredible continuous lying, to the point that we're all somewhat inoculated to it, even the people not buying the bull.
It's hard to imagine going back to the days when...almost anything Trump does and half the stuff the Tories get away with would have lead to resignations and an appropriately contrite apology (meant or not).
I read somewhere that it's apparently one of those things that Irish politics is about 20years behind the rest of the West (or something). It's a little odd that while the UK and US are setting themselves on fire (and Australia's got a rather nasty lot in as well), Ireland appears to have hit the 1960s in terms of social progress. So... there's that at least. Let's avoid doing this bit in 2036..0 -
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Rhineshark wrote: »It's like the Stupid Apocalypse.
Haha, that's a fantastic phrase for it. Reminds me of Idiocracy (great film).Rhineshark wrote: »Ireland appears to have hit the 1960s in terms of social progress. So... there's that at least. Let's avoid doing this bit in 2036..
Haha, yes indeed. It is actually heartening to feel that we are a modern, progressive, open country though. We can feel proud of ourselves, especially considering we had our own recent hardship, got through it and pushed on.
Between the smoking ban, gay marraige, abortion rights (denied in Argentina today) etc., we are in a country we can be happy to raise kids in, this while we observe the utter retardation and regression of the UK and the US.
We are also now at a point where we have almost finished clearing the closet of the majority of our skeletons: church scandals etc., while the US (seperating children from parents, demonizing minorities, etc.) and the UK (Windrush, everything else) are busy creating fresh ones and packing them in.
That's not to say we dont have problems that need to be sorted out: homelesness, healthcare etc., but these are mostly issues to do with infrastructure, funding and poor management, not issues to do with the sort of foolhardy aggressive, mean spirited shıte we are see in the aforementioned.
Peoples futures are being taken away while others are being victimised. In the UK, the Hostile Environment policy in particular is just unbelievable... Even more so as this is Theresa May instituted policy.0 -
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Rhineshark wrote: »It's nuts, isn't it? I stayed up for that one too with a deepening sense of oh **** from Sunderland onwards.
Although for me Brexit faded in its quieter moments behind the other pivotal generational moment for the anglosphere - Trump and his shenanigans. I'd pay attention when something happened and hunted books about the whole mad situation - Ian Dunt's, Tony Connolly's and Shipman's two on how the Tory party so monumentally screwed up are all worth reading, especially Connolly's Irish perspective, but Trump was a constant barrage there for a while.
But there's another nation with a semi-manufactured (but triggered something there, there was the potential, may have needed a kick to start) generational crisis. We are living in interesting times alright. It's like the Stupid Apocalypse. The fall of the west if everyone was on novocaine and/or coke while trying to do it. Which, hey, may save either country still. But seriously, this slow-rolling omnishambles is not a dignified period of history!
The disinformation campaign has done the damage. I think that will be a very long-lasting after-effect of these few nutcase years. That sort of damage doesn't fix easily. But both social crises laid bare something already there but that was exacerbated amongst the people in Britain by 40 years of lies and an austerity campaign by the Tories that is actually killing people and has left all social functions and provision in the UK on the brink of collapse. And ofc continued to redirect all blame onto convenient Brussels while taking credit for anything people would be in favour of. In the US, it was exacerbated by a complex range of social, economic and even religious issues (prosperity gospal, not Islam). And both have their rapacious wealthy uppercrusts deeply mired in politics that might as well be aristocrats for their attitudes and who have caused enormous damage in their efforts to destroy social provisions and increase the wealth gap.
But both were goaded on by incredible continuous lying, to the point that we're all somewhat inoculated to it, even the people not buying the bull.
It's hard to imagine going back to the days when...almost anything Trump does and half the stuff the Tories get away with would have lead to resignations and an appropriately contrite apology (meant or not).
I read somewhere that it's apparently one of those things that Irish politics is about 20years behind the rest of the West (or something). It's a little odd that while the UK and US are setting themselves on fire (and Australia's got a rather nasty lot in as well), Ireland appears to have hit the 1960s in terms of social progress. So... there's that at least. Let's avoid doing this bit in 2036..
To me -- from what I have seen -- the thing which is destroying the West is actually Declinism. In fact I felt so strongly about this that I actually considered starting a thread on it, but I fear it might be too vague. In essence, is Declinism destroying the West, rather than actual decline?
My own perception of following the Brexit debacle and a lot of other conversations around things like immigration, terrorism etc has led me to believe that the great cancer right now in the heart of the West is the perceived belief many have that the West is in sharp decline. Despite the fact that quality of life is excellent, prosperity is generally quite widespread, peace and security remain strong, tolerance and individual social freedom are improving . . . there seems to be this strong belief that Europe is in some downward spiral.
But the only thing worse than prophecy is self-fulfilling prophecy. I feel as though those who obsess over convincing themselves that Western Europe (this corner of the earth which by all relative standards is one of the best places in the world to find oneself living) is in terminal decline are actually the very people who are causing a decline -- if there is one. It is almost as if success has made us ignorant of success -- and we can only see downfall despite the facts painting a different objective reality.
My view is that Declinism was actually a huge driver behind the Brexit vote -- spurred by a generation of older voters with rosy nostalgic memories of their younger years and a sense of bitterness towards a world which had changed-- not necessarily changed for the worse, but change itself was a cause for concern regardless. Maybe I am being harsh . . but it's just a thought.0 -
ArthurDayne wrote: »To me -- from what I have seen -- the thing which is destroying the West is actually Declinism. In fact I felt so strongly about this that I actually considered starting a thread on it, but I fear it might be too vague. In essence, is Declinism destroying the West, rather than actual decline?
My own perception of following the Brexit debacle and a lot of other conversations around things like immigration, terrorism etc has led me to believe that the great cancer right now in the heart of the West is the perceived belief many have that the West is in sharp decline. Despite the fact that quality of life is excellent, prosperity is generally quite widespread, peace and security remain strong, tolerance and individual social freedom are improving . . . there seems to be this strong belief that Europe is in some downward spiral.
But the only thing worse than prophecy is self-fulfilling prophecy. I feel as though those who obsess over convincing themselves that Western Europe (this corner of the earth which by all relative standards is one of the best places in the world to find oneself living) is in terminal decline are actually the very people who are causing a decline -- if there is one. It is almost as if success has made us ignorant of success -- and we can only see downfall despite the facts painting a different objective reality.
My view is that Declinism was actually a huge driver behind the Brexit vote -- spurred by a generation of older voters with rosy nostalgic memories of their younger years and a sense of bitterness towards a world which had changed-- not necessarily changed for the worse, but change itself was a cause for concern regardless. Maybe I am being harsh . . but it's just a thought.
Sounds about right. But what we have to guard is the values we supposedly hold dear in 'the west', as if they go, it doesn't matter anymore.
For the US, Trump is about the economy, Making America Great Again. The side effect of that is they have compromised their values for this, and the US is poorer for it. They cannot be the 'leaders of the free world', this great nation, if they unabashedly abuse, threaten and victimize others for their betterment and profit. Threatening allies.
For the UK, the population at large seem to be 'allowing' or 'tolerating' an amazing amount of bad behaviour from their elected representatives, so long as they bat for their side of the argument. It's selfish. Experts have gone out the window. The Government in bed with the backward DUP and they continue to seek to decieve and break commitments. Their reputation is in ruins.0 -
Look at the embarassing, childish shìte they are at today:
Theresa May faces Tory civil war after step taken towards investigation into Boris Johnson's niqab comments
Tories attacked the prime minister following the decision to start a process that could lead to a formal probe
That stuff might be funny to some in private, but writing an article calling muslim women 'bank robbers'? To what end did he do this? To rally support behind him of all the right wing elements flocking to Tommy Robinson and co.?
And ol' May is agonising over it now lest she start a 'civil war' within the Tories. It's a joke. She can't afford to lead as she's so terrified of losing any seats from her side of Parliament.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 13685
Kermit.de.frog wrote: »Surely every other EU country would be queuing up demanding cake as well if such a deal was made for the UK?
I dunno. Most countries are in favour of intra EU free movement. The countries which have seen the rise of right wing populists are usually concerned about non-eu mediterranian migration. I suspect its only the British who are conflating internal and external migration issues.0 -
J Mysterio wrote: »Haha, yes indeed. It is actually heartening to feel that we are a modern, progressive, open country though. We can feel proud of ourselves, especially considering we had our own recent hardship, got through it and pushed on.
To be fair, it's not the first time we have happily bucked the trend, when far-right dictatorships were all the rage back in the 30's we pushed ahead with setting up a stable democracy.
Civil war politics has a lot to answer for, but it did at least push the flavor of the month ideologies to the side. Who needs Communisim or Euroscepticism when you can just focus on hateing the blueshirts.0 -
EU Concession rumour from Business Insider
Say it aint so!
Though little chance of it passing through parliament, this will be falsely seized upon by the Brexiteers as a sign of the UK's superior diplomacy and tough negotiating strategy, further leading them down the steadfast no-compromise bottom-less pit.
It would be an even huger concession on the UK side. It would involve the UK joining the Customs Union (so very little scope FTAs with the rest of the world), accepting present and future EU regulation with no say in making it, accepting ECJ jurisdiction, and almost certainly making ongoing financial contributions to the EU budget. Plus, as far as I can see it doesn't include freedom of services, so the City of London will still be badly hit.ancapailldorcha wrote: »That's a huge concession. It's also the sort of cherrypicking the EU warned at the outset would not be permitted.
I can't see this getting through Parliament at all if it is more than just a rumor.
We'd like it a lot, because it would solve the Irish border issue, and minimise the adverse effect of Brexit on RoI-UK trade.
I think the thinking behind this is that if the present impasse is to be broken, it's politically necessary that both sides should make substantial concessions, but it recognises the reality that the EU is in the superior strategic position and has the better case, so the UK must do more conceding than the EU. The EU will concede on free movement; the UK on almost everything else.
Similar stories have been popping up in a couple of places over the last few days. Despite this one being attributed to "a senior EU source", my sense is that this is coming from the UK side. It could be that the UK are readying themselves to cave, and are trying to lay ground whereby this can be presented as a victory. (Which, honestly, I'm fine with, if it gets us where we need to be.) Or it could be that the UK is testing the waters, floating these rumours to see how the ultra-Brexiters react.0 -
Peregrinus wrote: »The EU will concede on free movement; the UK on almost everything else.
I would not hold my breath on the EU conceding on FOM.
The reality of the situation is that this is not really a negiotiation, it is the EU presenting the available options and inviting the UK to either take their pick or come up with something else the EU would be abe to accept. They don't want to take their pick from colum A, and there is very little chance of them coming up with something for colum B.
The EU has very little reason to compromise with the UK. Compromising on the foundations of the EU is a much worse outcome for the EU than allowing the UK to crash out.0 -
It's a lot to ask, and Merkel in particular has set her face against it.I would not hold my breath on the EU conceding on FOM.
Still, I wouldn't entirely rule it out. There are a couple of considerations in its favour:
- The EU would prefer to avoid a crash-out.
- Politically, it may be beneficial to the EU to be seen to compromise on something to facilitate a deal.
- They were willing to compromise on free movement to some extend with David Cameron - remember the "emergency brake"? With more at stake here, they might be prepared to compromise a bit more.
And this isn't an all-or-nothing kind of thing; it's not the case that the UK either accepts free movement as it now stands, or makes no commitments at all in relation to its migration policy. And of course UK policymakers are very aware that UK business and industry needs migrant labour, and lots of it. Expect terms like "managed movement" to start featuring a lot in the discussion. Fudge upon fudge.0 -
The British government asked Ireland to ease off on its emphasis on peace in Northern Ireland as one of the main issues at stakes in the Brexit talks
Lads, any chance you can ignore the risk of a bloody sectarian civil war so we can indulge in an act of monumental stupidity?
Some of the talk out of Britain in the last month has been more and more desperate, ill considered and desperate.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/britain-urged-ireland-to-reduce-emphasis-on-ni-peace-in-brexit-talks-1.35913100 -
LeinsterDub wrote: »Lads, any chance you can ignore the risk of a bloody sectarian civil war so we can indulge in an act of monumental stupidity?
Some of the talk out of Britain in the last month has been more and more desperate, ill considered and desperate.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/britain-urged-ireland-to-reduce-emphasis-on-ni-peace-in-brexit-talks-1.3591310
Proof, if proof was ever needed, that they have a tolerance for a certain level of violence in Ireland because fundamentally they don't care.0 -
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May's point seems to me in fact the opposite; there's no need to structure the Withdrawal Agreement so as to ensure that Brexit does not undermine the GFA because, regardless of what the WA does or doesn't say, as guarantor of the GFA, HMG will in any event ensure that Brexit proceeds in a way that doesn't undermine the GFA.FrancieBrady wrote: »Proof, if proof was ever needed, that they have a tolerance for a certain level of violence in Ireland because fundamentally they don't care.
Convinced? No, me neither. But that at least is what she is trying to say. And that's not all ba; it does at least mean that she accepts as a fundamental the principle that Brexit must not be allowed to undermine the GFA.0 -
How can you trust a government that has no plans, no idea what it's up to or how it will achieve anything, engages in magical thinking, is supported by a confidence and supply deal with the DUP and has already gone back on its word multiple times during this Brexit process ?!
She’s talking about being “hurt”. Get me the worlds smallest violin. Her government is about to destroy decades of progress in Northern Ireland and undermine their closest neighbours and the best she can do is stamp her feet like a toddler and say she’s upset and hurt.
Can she imagine how hurt and upset the people who've put decades of their lives into resolving the Northern Ireland conflict might be?!!
Forgive me if I say well Boo hoo and grow up!0 -
ArthurDayne wrote: »To me -- from what I have seen -- the thing which is destroying the West is actually Declinism. In fact I felt so strongly about this that I actually considered starting a thread on it, but I fear it might be too vague. In essence, is Declinism destroying the West, rather than actual decline?
My own perception of following the Brexit debacle and a lot of other conversations around things like immigration, terrorism etc has led me to believe that the great cancer right now in the heart of the West is the perceived belief many have that the West is in sharp decline. Despite the fact that quality of life is excellent, prosperity is generally quite widespread, peace and security remain strong, tolerance and individual social freedom are improving . . . there seems to be this strong belief that Europe is in some downward spiral.
But the only thing worse than prophecy is self-fulfilling prophecy. I feel as though those who obsess over convincing themselves that Western Europe (this corner of the earth which by all relative standards is one of the best places in the world to find oneself living) is in terminal decline are actually the very people who are causing a decline -- if there is one. It is almost as if success has made us ignorant of success -- and we can only see downfall despite the facts painting a different objective reality.
My view is that Declinism was actually a huge driver behind the Brexit vote -- spurred by a generation of older voters with rosy nostalgic memories of their younger years and a sense of bitterness towards a world which had changed-- not necessarily changed for the worse, but change itself was a cause for concern regardless. Maybe I am being harsh . . but it's just a thought.
It's also a tad ironic given that that older generation is the generation to benefit the most from the progress of the 20th century. Generally speaking asset rich and well pensioned. And not necessarily through any special endeavors of their own...
Today's youth face a far more challenging uphill battle to achieve even a fraction of the wealth and security attained by those that went before them.
Yet it was that older generational vote that carried the likes of Brexit.
All in the lament of some perceived decline in something..0 -
One thing I would point out in both Britain and Ireland is that the older generations are much less well educated than their younger counterparts. In Britain your looking at a generation that worked in manufacturing and a blue collar economy that's largely gone and been replaced by a hugely expanded services sector.
That isn't always repeated in continental Europe where some countries have had free or heavily subsided access to university for longer than either the UK or Ireland and also where full cycle secondary school completion and some kind of further education was normal sooner than it was here or in England.
It's really only adults who came of age from the 1970s who had those opportunities and an expectation of long periods in education.
There is genuinely a big cultural generational gap in British society in that regard.0 -
Peregrinus wrote: »May's point seems to me in fact the opposite; there's no need to structure the Withdrawal Agreement so as to ensure that Brexit does not undermine the GFA because, regardless of what the WA does or doesn't say, as guarantor of the GFA, HMG will in any event ensure that Brexit proceeds in a way that doesn't undermine the GFA.
Convinced? No, me neither. But that at least is what she is trying to say. And that's not all ba; it does at least mean that she accepts as a fundamental the principle that Brexit must not be allowed to undermine the GFA.
May can say what she likes, their disregard for Ireland and what happens here has been flagrant imo.0 -
I would not hold my breath on the EU conceding on FOM.
The reality of the situation is that this is not really a negiotiation, it is the EU presenting the available options and inviting the UK to either take their pick or come up with something else the EU would be abe to accept. They don't want to take their pick from colum A, and there is very little chance of them coming up with something for colum B.
The EU has very little reason to compromise with the UK. Compromising on the foundations of the EU is a much worse outcome for the EU than allowing the UK to crash out.
The EU conceded on freedom of movement before, when the last round of accessions happened for example, FOM from these States was not guaranteed0 -
Do you think honestly that HMG are that nuanced?Peregrinus wrote: »EU Concession rumour from Business Insider
Say it aint so!
Though little chance of it passing through parliament, this will be falsely seized upon by the Brexiteers as a sign of the UK's superior diplomacy and tough negotiating strategy, further leading them down the steadfast no-compromise bottom-less pit.
It would be an even huger concession on the UK side. It would involve the UK joining the Customs Union (so very little scope FTAs with the rest of the world), accepting present and future EU regulation with no say in making it, accepting ECJ jurisdiction, and almost certainly making ongoing financial contributions to the EU budget. Plus, as far as I can see it doesn't include freedom of services, so the City of London will still be badly hit.ancapailldorcha wrote: »That's a huge concession. It's also the sort of cherrypicking the EU warned at the outset would not be permitted.
I can't see this getting through Parliament at all if it is more than just a rumor.
We'd like it a lot, because it would solve the Irish border issue, and minimise the adverse effect of Brexit on RoI-UK trade.
I think the thinking behind this is that if the present impasse is to be broken, it's politically necessary that both sides should make substantial concessions, but it recognises the reality that the EU is in the superior strategic position and has the better case, so the UK must do more conceding than the EU. The EU will concede on free movement; the UK on almost everything else.
Similar stories have been popping up in a couple of places over the last few days. Despite this one being attributed to "a senior EU source", my sense is that this is coming from the UK side. It could be that the UK are readying themselves to cave, and are trying to lay ground whereby this can be presented as a victory. (Which, honestly, I'm fine with, if it gets us where we need to be.) Or it could be that the UK is testing the waters, floating these rumours to see how the ultra-Brexiters react.
I think may runs day to day.0 -
It's also a tad ironic given that that older generation is the generation to benefit the most from the progress of the 20th century. Generally speaking asset rich and well pensioned. And not necessarily through any special endeavors of their own...
Today's youth face a far more challenging uphill battle to achieve even a fraction of the wealth and security attained by those that went before them.
Yet it was that older generational vote that carried the likes of Brexit.
All in the lament of some perceived decline in something..
Classic greed and pulling up the ladder.
Same as people in Dublin who live in former corporation houses protesting against social housing in their area because of effects on property values etc.
Truly the worst generation.0 -
That's not so much a concession rather than a safety valve though. It's part of the core EU treaties and specifies hard rules and processes around restricting FOM for new members.The EU conceded on freedom of movement before, when the last round of accessions happened for example, FOM from these States was not guaranteed
That is, there are no "special cases" on FOM that the EU has allowed in one-off circumstances.
That said, the UK could potentially be allowed FOM status on the same basis as a permanent "new member". That is, there would be FOM between the UK and EU by default, but individual member states would be permitted to impose restrictions on UK citizens, and the UK likewise could impose reciprocal restrictions.
To a certain extent, this is a bit of a win-win. The restrictions only apply to employed workers, not visitors or sole traders; so they don't require border checks. And the UK gets their "immigration control", albeit in a ceremonial fashion rather than a realistic one.0 -
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I'm not sure that's fair, but some of the attitude makes my skin crawl. They really have pulled up the ladder.BonnieSituation wrote: »It's also a tad ironic given that that older generation is the generation to benefit the most from the progress of the 20th century. Generally speaking asset rich and well pensioned. And not necessarily through any special endeavors of their own...
Today's youth face a far more challenging uphill battle to achieve even a fraction of the wealth and security attained by those that went before them.
Yet it was that older generational vote that carried the likes of Brexit.
All in the lament of some perceived decline in something..
Classic greed and pulling up the ladder.
Same as people in Dublin who live in former corporation houses protesting against social housing in their area because of effects on property values etc.
Truly the worst generation.0
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