Brexit discussion thread IV

Imreoir2

Imreoir2 wrote: »

I think the legal framework underpining the single eletricity market will disapear on the 30th of March if the UK does not agree a deal. Eirgrid's options may well be limited in that scenario. The UK government seems to think that the problem is big enough to require an emergency bilateral agreement to keep the lights on.

But I'm sure it will all be grand. Let's just not think about it, right?

Governments look at a worst case scenario, multiply it by ten and then plan for it.

If there was a serious concern it would happen, they would be planning to divert the current connectors from Arklow to Larne.

trellheim

So that’s a yes then.

March 30th sees all electricity interconnectors between Wales/Ireland/Northern Ireland will be turned off?

You are being disingenuous. The CEO of Eirgrid must not break the law, . Now if Leo etc get a fix through in time thats OK - thats what we have a Government for. Feel free to lobby your TD.

trellheim

trellheim wrote: »

You are being disingenuous. The CEO of Eirgrid must not break the law, . Now if Leo etc get a fix through in time thats OK - thats what we have a Government for. Feel free to lobby your TD.

How is supply something to a subsidiary company breaking the law and what law are they breaking?

listermint

trellheim wrote: »

You are being disingenuous. The CEO of Eirgrid must not break the law, . Now if Leo etc get a fix through in time thats OK - thats what we have a Government for. Feel free to lobby your TD.

No man. Sure companys can break the law. Sure its for the greater good.

You know , sure that's why the UK government was looking at bringing military generators back from Afghanistan... Because they obviously believed the power can't just be turned off.

listermint

listermint wrote: »

No man. Sure companys can break the law. Sure its for the greater good.

You know , sure that's why the UK government was looking at bringing military generators back from Afghanistan... Because they obviously believed the power can't just be turned off.

It’s contingency planning. Just like handing out iodine tablets.

Iteland fuels many of its power stations via gas pipes from the UK. Should I nip out to hire all and get a Jenny just in case?

listermint

Aegir wrote: »

It’s contingency planning. Just like handing out iodine tablets.

Iteland fuels many of its power stations via gas pipes from the UK. Should I nip out to hire all and get a Jenny just in case?

Yep that's why the UK government are out trying to push through a bilateral trade deal for the ni energy market. As we speak.

You realise it cannot simply be left on once the day roles over.

Or do you not..... Contingency planning or just pure waffling

trellheim

How is supply something to a subsidiary company breaking the law and what law are they breaking?

Like I said... you are being disingenuous. If you want to have the debate then have the debate. Questions like that aren't it.

Spook_ie

Aegir wrote: »

It’s contingency planning. Just like handing out iodine tablets.

Iteland fuels many of its power stations via gas pipes from the UK. Should I nip out to hire all and get a Jenny just in case?

Harold Wilson wanted to dock nuclear sub's in Belfast in 1974 to link the reactors into the NI Grid during the strikes
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/4132635.stm

Anthracite

Aegir wrote: »

no one will be reinventing the wheel, it will simply be a case of the UK adopting the exact same standards it has already adopted and the EU recognising that. Just as it does with Malaysia, Japan, China and every other country who has aircraft flying in and out of the EU.

The same will go for electricity (not sure how ou chage the standards of electricity though), currently the UK and Ireland have the same standard, whjy would that change.

And what happens the day that the UK changes a single 'standard'? And how does the EU know that even existing regulations are being monitored?

Anthracite

Anthracite wrote: »

And what happens the day that the UK changes a single 'standard'? And how does the EU know that even existing regulations are being monitored?

How does it know Australia, India or Singapore are?

Spook_ie

Anthracite wrote: »

And what happens the day that the UK changes a single 'standard'? And how does the EU know that even existing regulations are being monitored?

Would the EU even be bothered if the UK as an importer / consumer changed anything? As long as it's one way I don't see it being a problem.

Nate--IRL--

Anthracite wrote: »

And what happens the day that the UK changes a single 'standard'? And how does the EU know that even existing regulations are being monitored?

He's already accepted that the UK would have to continue to abide by the current arrangement for the operation of the single energy market in Ireland.

Nate

trellheim

trellheim wrote: »

Like I said... you are being disingenuous. If you want to have the debate then have the debate. Questions like that aren't it.

I asked a question. What laws will be broken. Will it be illegal for European companies to trade with the UK on March 30th?

Of course not.

Feel free to debate.

Anthracite

Bit cynical wrote: »

So the brexiters aren't even proper racists! That's your criticism of them.

That's a fairly spectacular misunderstanding of a pretty clear post.

Anthracite

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

He's already accepted that the UK would have to continue to abide by the current arrangement for the operation of the single energy market in Ireland.

Nate

But what if there is no legal framework there for the current arrangement to operate in?

Nate--IRL--

Aegir wrote: »

I asked a question. What laws will be broken.

A better question is what Laws will contracts operate under?

Nate

listermint

Aegir wrote: »

I asked a question. What laws will be broken. Will it be illegal for European companies to trade with the UK on March 30th?

Of course not.

Feel free to debate.

Because the UK is refusing to be under EU law post brexit and for the SEM to continue then either the UK will have to accept the European Courts or NI has to be a designated special economic zone.


It's not that difficult to comprehend.

Why do you think civil servants from Britian are presently scrambling to push a bilateral trade deal for NI energy market.

Feel free to give us some facts at any point

Imreoir2

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

A better question is what Laws will contracts operate under?

Nate

Indeed, if there is a contractual dificulty, where will the case be heard if NI is no longer subject to the ECJ?

Nate--IRL--

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

A better question is what Laws will contracts operate under?

Nate

Whatever laws two privately owned companies choose to operate under, same as with any commercial contract.

Imreoir2

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Indeed, if there is a contractual dificulty, where will the case be heard if NI is no longer subject to the ECJ?

Where does any international contract get resolved?

Any commercial contract will specify what laws and what courts have jurisdiction.

Capt'n Midnight

Spook_ie wrote: »

Harold Wilson wanted to dock nuclear sub's in Belfast in 1974 to link the reactors into the NI Grid during the strikes
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/4132635.stm

The aircraft carrier U.S.S. Lexington provided power to Tacoma back in 1929

Back then NI only needed 354 megawatts. Today the Moyle East West interconnector can carry more.

Anyway electrictity doesn't need passports or visas or customs inspections. So it should at worst be no more than an issue of VAT or tariff which can be sorted out on the next bill.

From a technical point of view the electricity backstop for North would be to keep open the big plants due for closure. Dead money. But that's Brexit all over.

listermint

listermint wrote: »

Because the UK is refusing to be under EU law post brexit and for the SEM to continue then either the UK will have to accept the European Courts or NI has to be a designated special economic zone.


It's not that difficult to comprehend.

Why do you think civil servants from Britian are presently scrambling to push a bilateral trade deal for NI energy market.

Feel free to give us some facts at any point

So, once again.

What law is the CEO of eirgrid breaking if they continue to supply electricity to their subsidiary company post Brexit?

Will it be illegal for an Irish owned company to continue trading with a subsidiary in the UK.

The simple fact is that securing energy supply for vital services is an essential obligation of any government and Brexit poses a potential risk to that.

At the momemt, eirgrid is pretty much obligated under the SEM to provide power, but going forward it will not be. That doesn’t mean they can’t, just that they can flip the switch any time they choose.

It presents a small risk so it has to be addressed and I would hazard a guess and say that someone decided that shipping a couple of generators back from Bastion is enough mitigation.

That doesn’t mean the power will go off, only that supply is not secured and needs to be.

listermint

listermint wrote: »

This is pointless

It's like debating with jrm.

Do you take all your queues from fox on twitter?

Because it's nonsense and its head in the sand nonsense

So you can’t name any laws that have been broken, so you go for the poster instead.

Capt'n Midnight

Day before yesterday
Leaked paper. EU migrants will be given right to stay in event of no-deal Brexit, Cabinet papers reveal

Yesterday
Official confirmation. EU residents will be secure if no Brexit deal says Raab

Today, it's Windrush again.
Right down to the destruction of Government records.
More than 1,000 children born in the UK to parents from eight EU countries have been refused British passport renewals because of a Home Office error.

The WRS was scrapped in 2011 and families have said it is impossible to obtain copies of the certificates as the records are no longer kept by the government.

"Trust me, I know what I'm doing"
- Sledge Hammer!

Jaggo

One of the big problems with electricity supply is the need for redundancy. If electricity demand is at a certain level, you have to supply 10% extra electricity to avoid brown outs during short spikes in demand. This requires generation of extra electricity that will not be used. This will be difficult in NI as we will be charging them for electricity that they do not receive.
We will need agreements in place to charge northern Ireland for this.

It gets more complex when you consider that you need more redundancy to cover accidental power station shut down. You need at least one power plant on stand by. Again this requires agrees and payments for a good that, hopefully, will not be needed. The northern Ireland connector with Scotland has been offline for significant periods of time making it too unreliable for something as critical as power.

The final difficulty comes with emergency situations - how do we deal with an undersupply of electricity. Let say the ROI is facing a blackout but electricity is being send north, do we continue doing that or do we divert it south?

There will also be difficulty with esb workers doing jobs north of the border etc..

Bit cynical

listermint wrote: »

This is pointless

It's like debating with jrm.

Do you take all your queues from fox on twitter?

Because it's nonsense and its head in the sand nonsense

In fairness, it is very unlikely that there will be disruption to energy supply to the North after Brexit (even an no deal one). We will also, as pointed out, continue to buy gas from interconnections with the UK. Our Sunday roast is safe! Energy will continue to be traded.

Jaggo

Jaggo wrote: »

One of the big problems with electricity supply is the need for redundancy. If electricity demand is at a certain level, you have to supply 10% extra electricity to avoid brown outs during short spikes in demand. This requires generation of extra electricity that will not be used. This will be difficult in NI as we will be charging them for electricity that they do not receive.
We will need agreements in place to charge northern Ireland for this.

It gets more complex when you consider that you need more redundancy to cover accidental power station shut down. You need at least one power plant on stand by. Again this requires agrees and payments for a good that, hopefully, will not be needed. The northern Ireland connector with Scotland has been offline for significant periods of time making it too unreliable for something as critical as power.

The final difficulty comes with emergency situations - how do we deal with an undersupply of electricity. Let say the ROI is facing a blackout but electricity is being send north, do we continue doing that or do we divert it south?

There will also be difficulty with esb workers doing jobs north of the border etc..

I would guess that this is where the east-west connector comes in handy as it gives access to the fairly rapid electric mountain power station in north Wales.

Well worth a visit by the way.

Nate--IRL--

Aegir wrote: »

Whatever laws two privately owned companies choose to operate under, same as with any commercial contract.

And where the contracts laws bind the parties to operate under EU regulation (in particular 714/2009)?

Nate

Capt'n Midnight

Sassygirl1999 wrote: »

NI have a power vacuum

EU regulations say it can't be more than 900 Watts. :pac:

Seriously next week NI sorta beats Belgium for going without a government.



From the FAQ for the Petition to Remove the MP for North Antrim, Ian Paisley for those in the constituency

Am I eligible to sign the petition?

You are eligible to sign if you are on the electoral register as of 25 July 2018 and you are aged 18 on or before 19 September 2018.

...
How do I sign the petition by post or proxy?

You need to complete an application form to sign the petition by post or proxy. The form is available to download here or contact 028 9044 6668 and we will post one out to you.

The deadline for submitting your application to sign by post or proxy is 5.00pm on Tuesday 4 September 2018.

SF and the UUP have a lot more money in the kitty per seat than the DUP so it could get interesting.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-45270294

Bit cynical

Havockk wrote: »

No. Think you have the wrong end of the stick as far as the old racism is concerned.

I'm making a prediction that the far-right will use that to attempt to gain strength.

Sure, but is that a good reason either? Yes, when the UK leaves the EU, it won't be drawing so many immigrants from predominantly white EU countries. But to be against a rise in non-white immigrants on the basis that it gives the far-right something to be upset about strikes me as appeasement, a form of tacit support.