Brexit discussion thread IV

Leroy42

Thanks Peregrinus, very informative answer

Sam Russell

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, there are difficulties. But don't dismiss the system too lightly; it's the system alread in use in most European countries.

The UK and Ireland, as island nations, have until now had a relatively easy time of controlling entry at the border with the result that, once you're in, there was very little in the way of immigration enforcement.

That hasn't been the case with continental European countries, where despite the best efforts of the authorities land borders have always been much more porous. So for the past 200 years, if not for more, most of them have had systems of population registration under which everybody has a registered address and an identity card which is then the key to voting, school enrolment, tax returns, public healthcare, yadda, yadda, yadda. So if you're a migrant with no right to be there, you have to live pretty much off the radar, working in the black economy, no social welfare, limited healthcare, etc.

The UK is basically moving towards this system except that, being Tories, they are privatising it - it'll be down to employers, GPS, schools etc to do most of the frontline enforcment.

Will they let people die, starve, etc? No; if you turn up at a hospital needing emergency treatment or at a social services office needing emergency accommodation for your children, I expect you'll get it. But you'll also get drawn to the attention of the lads and lasses at the home office, and efforts to deport you will commence.

Will it work well? No, it'll be a disaster, with lots of people victimised for no reason, and other people slipping through the net because they have the good fortune not to fall ill or beget children. But it's what they're planning. And it won't affect the CTA.

The simple answer to immigration, both legal and illegal, is to introduce ID cards, carrying details of citizenship, and residency. We would have to introduce an equivalent system here.

It answers all requirements except that the Tories would absolutely hate it. To quote Rees-Mogg: 'An Englishman should not have to say what he does when he does what he does!'.

Irish Citizens are equivalent to British Citizens under UK law. [I think it is a 1948 law related to Ireland becoming a republic and leaving the Commonwealth]

ID cards would solve all the problems to do with people wrt the border with NI.

trellheim

Irish and UK nationals not having to show passports is embedded in Irish Law - Immigration Act 2004

Enzokk

Here is another industry that is feeling the effects and will suffer with a no deal Brexit. In fact any Brexit that leaves the UK outside of EU institutions even with a great FTA with the EU will severely hurt the gaming industry in the UK.

Brexit is sabotaging the British video games industry

No deal also means that we're out of the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR), an EU law on data protection and privacy. Without a data adequacy agreement we'll undermine the entire digital infrastructure of the video game economy.

Companies will scramble to separate EU players from UK players in multiplayer lobbies to prevent GDPR breaches. Stores like Steam will be unsure about VAT collection processes. Companies won't know if commercial deals that cover the EU stand. There is a real risk of the British video game economy being brought to a stand still by a no-deal Brexit.

So the choice is to keep EU laws and stay in GDPR or ruin the gaming industry in favour of the likes of fisheries. I wish someone would ask JRM what his thoughts on this would be and which he would favour. Because it seems to me that you cannot leave all EU law and keep the benefits that the industry has that allows it to thrive.

Leroy42

Enzokk wrote: »

I wish someone would ask JRM what his thoughts on this would be and which he would favour. Because it seems to me that you cannot leave all EU law and keep the benefits that the industry has that allows it to thrive.

I can already answer that for JRM.

He will simply say that the UK have traded for hundreds of years without the need for the EU, and have a pivotal role in that industry that will mean that they will continue to lead.

They may retain some of the EU regulations, in the short-term, but only in so much as it suits the UK and it will be their decision, not some faceless, unelected bureaucrat from the ivory tower in Brussels dictating law to the UK.

That the examples you brought up are the exception rather than the rule, and it is not beyond the wit of the nation that gave the world law, and language and football and rugby and cricket, to enable both sides to continue on as is now but with a greater focus on jobs and investment in the UK.

In the end, the gaming industry needs us more than we need them and UK will be a world leader forever simply because.

Rhineshark

Peregrinus wrote: »

I think myself it's a dead cat designed to reduce the heat on the ERG for still not having a Brexit plan that they themselves regard as credible enough to be exposed to public scrutiny.

One way or another though, we all seem to agree its a dead cat anyway

First Up

Leroy42 wrote:

They may retain some of the EU regulations, in the short-term, but only in so much as it suits the UK and it will be their decision, not some faceless, unelected bureaucrat from the ivory tower in Brussels dictating law to the UK.

What decisions or rules of the EU are made by faceless unelected bureaucrats?

Leroy42

First Up wrote: »

What decisions or rules of the EU are made by faceless unelected bureaucrats?

I was answering on the basis of what I would expect of JRM. And in the same vein, I don't actually have any examples, but clearly you are only asking because you want to deny the will of the people and are obviously on the payroll of the EU.

Enzokk

Leroy42 wrote: »

I can already answer that for JRM.

He will simply say that the UK have traded for hundreds of years without the need for the EU, and have a pivotal role in that industry that will mean that they will continue to lead.

They may retain some of the EU regulations, in the short-term, but only in so much as it suits the UK and it will be their decision, not some faceless, unelected bureaucrat from the ivory tower in Brussels dictating law to the UK.

That the examples you brought up are the exception rather than the rule, and it is not beyond the wit of the nation that gave the world law, and language and football and rugby and cricket, to enable both sides to continue on as is now but with a greater focus on jobs and investment in the UK.

In the end, the gaming industry needs us more than we need them and UK will be a world leader forever simply because.

Yeah, but no. This is actually one area that he cannot point to how the UK were doing it before the EU. There was no computer games industry before the UK joined the EU so that answer has no value. This is a simple choice, either the UK adopts EU regulations that this industry is involved in or they suffer the consequences. What is the answer with this binary choice. I expect that the answer would be a waffle and nonsensical but the supporters will not care. They just want to leave the EU, come what may.

trellheim

There was no computer games industry before the UK joined the EU so that answer has no value

technically not correct - Atari released Pong in '72 which kicked it all off in the big way and the UK joined the EU in '73

Enzokk

trellheim wrote: »

technically not correct - Atari released Pong in '72 which kicked it all off in the big way and the UK joined the EU in '73

I made a sweeping statement without knowing the facts. I was trying to say that there was no UK computer games industry before they joined the EU and Atari was started in the US I believe so my statement about the UK games industry not starting until after the UK joined the EU I believe still stands. In any case the industry the article refers to would be more along the lines of Rockstar Games (and their UK subsidiaries) that released the Grand Theft Auto series.

kunst nugget

trellheim wrote: »

technically not correct - Atari released Pong in '72 which kicked it all off in the big way and the UK joined the EU in '73

Hmmm, I think that's being a tad pedantic. Yes, Pong had been released but it would have been seen as a fad and not a sustainable industry and definitely not the titan it has become where the games market is worth £5 billion a year in the UK alone.

Imreoir2

trellheim wrote: »

technically not correct - Atari released Pong in '72 which kicked it all off in the big way and the UK joined the EU in '73

Not sure there was much online multiplayer pong back in '72. They had to wait till after EEC membership for that.

Leroy42

It appears that the gloves are most certainly off in terms of Chequers. We have had Johnson two telegraph articles, and now it appear Steve Baker is the willing idiot to launch the first public push in terms of demanding TM change course.

Of course they have nothing else to offer, so we are faced with a situation where the UK have put forward a deal that the EU has rejected, its own party of government is threatening to crash the party unless it is cancelled, and yet the UK has nothing else to offer save for what is being dubbed the Davies plan, which is essentially Canada with a few extra bits but which totally fails to deal with the NI border and as such has already been rejected by the EU from the very start.

Rhineshark

Leroy42 wrote: »

It appears that the gloves are most certainly off in terms of Chequers. We have had Johnson two telegraph articles, and now it appear Steve Baker is the willing idiot to launch the first public push in terms of demanding TM change course.

Of course they have nothing else to offer, so we are faced with a situation where the UK have put forward a deal that the EU has rejected, its own party of government is threatening to crash the party unless it is cancelled, and yet the UK has nothing else to offer save for what is being dubbed the Davies plan, which is essentially Canada with a few extra bits but which totally fails to deal with the NI border and as such has already been rejected by the EU from the very start.

Well, it's not a great deal different from the situation we had before which was the UK pushing a plan that the EU didn't agree with (not as a final form anyway) and that the UK had actively made parts of illegal under UK law so overall we're really still in the same holding position.

Nody

Enzokk wrote: »

Here is another industry that is feeling the effects and will suffer with a no deal Brexit. In fact any Brexit that leaves the UK outside of EU institutions even with a great FTA with the EU will severely hurt the gaming industry in the UK.

Brexit is sabotaging the British video games industry



So the choice is to keep EU laws and stay in GDPR or ruin the gaming industry in favour of the likes of fisheries. I wish someone would ask JRM what his thoughts on this would be and which he would favour. Because it seems to me that you cannot leave all EU law and keep the benefits that the industry has that allows it to thrive.

That author honestly has to be rather clueless seeing how badly they mangled things.

GDPR has nothing to do with being in or out of EU; it affects every company handling EU personal data (Hi Facebook & Google). There are data TRANSFER issues in relation to where you're allowed to send data if UK crashes out due to requirement on security etc. as the deals would not exist but that does not equal GDPR legislation. There are neither issues with EU players playing with non EU players as I regularly end up with Russians in the likes of Starcraft 2 Co-Op or Overwatch or needing seperation.

Hence what are issues comes down to:

• Talents not coming over / be available post crash out (same for all industries)
• Need a new certification process in EU as UK regulation is not valid (same for all companies)
• Charging VAT for Steam? How is this even an Brexit issue as it would only affect UK VAT collection procedures anyway?!

Honestly I'm not seeing much specific for the Gaming industry that's not UK wide.

LeinsterDub

trellheim wrote: »

Irish and UK nationals not having to show passports is embedded in Irish Law - Immigration Act 2004

A meaningless law. How do you prove you're an Irish or UK national without showing your passport?

Sam Russell

LeinsterDub wrote: »

A meaningless law. How do you prove you're an Irish or UK national without showing your passport?

Well, you ask them to pronounce Cobh, Siobhan, Maedhbh, Athenry, or Baille Ath Cliath - that is if they are Irish.

For the English, Cholmondeley might be too much of a challenge, but a bit of rhyming slang might do it.

However, there are the new Irish who might fail the above test, and then the Windrush people who got kicked out of the UK, bespite being British citizens for being the wrong colour.

ID cards work the best.

flatty

Sam Russell wrote: »

LeinsterDub wrote: »

A meaningless law. How do you prove you're an Irish or UK national without showing your passport?

Well, you ask them to pronounce Cobh, Siobhan, Maedhbh, Athenry, or Baille Ath Cliath - that is if they are Irish.

For the English, Cholmondeley might be too much of a challenge, but a bit of rhyming slang might do it.

However, there are the new Irish who might fail the above test, and then the Windrush people who got kicked out of the UK, bespite being British citizens for being the wrong colour.

ID cards work the best.

Roisin. Just ask them how to pronounce that. No need for papers.

robinph

LeinsterDub wrote: »

A meaningless law. How do you prove you're an Irish or UK national without showing your passport?

With your birth cert. The birth cert being the proof of citizenship required before you can get a passport, but lack of a passport doesn't mean you are not a citizen or free to travel between UK and Ireland.

Sam Russell

robinph wrote: »

With your birth cert. The birth cert being the proof of citizenship required before you can get a passport, but lack of a passport doesn't mean you are not a citizen or free to travel between UK and Ireland.

Even a birth cert is not enough because an Irish citizen can be born anywhere if they have a grandparent born in Ireland. A naturalised citizen could also be born anywhere.

National ID cards work for most of the EU.

kowtow

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, you ask them to pronounce Cobh, Siobhan, Maedhbh, Athenry, or Baille Ath Cliath - that is if they are Irish.

For the English, Cholmondeley might be too much of a challenge, but a bit of rhyming slang might do it.
ID cards work the best.

Or the (for the english) the two boys named Featherstonehaugh with whom I once shared a dormitory.

(It's pronounced f-a-n-s-h-a-w)

Although UK airports never seem to have passport checks on arrival from Ireland, and haven't had regular security desks since I was a student back in the 80's, the Irish airports do have passport checks for all passengers arriving from the UK. They're often a pretty cursory "welcome home, [insert name]" but they are there nonetheless.

Sam Russell

kowtow wrote: »

Or the (for the english) the two boys named Featherstonehaugh with whom I once shared a dormitory.

(It's pronounced f-a-n-s-h-a-w)

Although UK airports never seem to have passport checks on arrival from Ireland, and haven't had regular security desks since I was a student back in the 80's, the Irish airports do have passport checks for all passengers arriving from the UK. They're often a pretty cursory "welcome home, [insert name]" but they are there nonetheless.

Just came through Dublin Airport T1 (on the B gates) and my passport was scanned, so not cursory at all. Every time I have gone through the passport was scanned, either the DIY or manned.

First Up

kowtow wrote:

Although UK airports never seem to have passport checks on arrival from Ireland, and haven't had regular security desks since I was a student back in the 80's, the Irish airports do have passport checks for all passengers arriving from the UK. They're often a pretty cursory "welcome home, [insert name]" but they are there nonetheless.

Because flights from Ireland arrive at the terminal used for domestic flights in the UK. Irish airports don't have that facility.

kowtow

First Up wrote: »

Because flights from Ireland arrive at the terminal used for domestic flights in the UK. Irish airports don't have that facility.

I assumed that would be the problem.

I wonder how many people produce a driving licence or anything other than a passport? ...

Enzokk

Not sure if this has been brought up, but seems like while the ERG will not release a plan for Brexit but they will release a report that the UK will be £80bn better off on WTO rules. I look forward to the release of this data so that we can also get that windfall, as I am sure other EU countries are eager for it as well.

Britain would get £80 billion boost from a no deal Brexit, Jacob Rees-Mogg claims

Britain would receive an £80bn boost if it leaves the European Union without a deal with Brussels and moves on to World Trade Organisation rules, leading Tory Eurosceptic Jacob Rees-Mogg is arguing.

Mr Rees-Mogg, leader of the pro-Brexit European Research Group (ERG) of MPs, gave his backing to an analysis which concludes that a so-called “hard Brexit” would result in a dramatic economic stimulus for the UK.

The report by Economists for Free Trade, to be published on Tuesday, said a trade deal governed by the WTO would boost exports, lower prices at home and attract foreign investment in Britain.

It claims that the extra economic growth would swell Treasury coffers by £80bn over 15 years, leading to tax cuts and higher public spending.

trellheim

A meaningless law. How do you prove you're an Irish or UK national without showing your passport?

That law does not say you must prove you are a national, it just says nationals are exempt. The converse is not true, otherwise you would have to find an immigration official every time you cross the border on a bus or a train or anywhere just to prove you were exempt.

As we have seen someone wrote to the IT on saturday complaining about passport checks in Dublin off the Donegal flight

lawred2

Enzokk wrote: »

Not sure if this has been brought up, but seems like while the ERG will not release a plan for Brexit but they will release a report that the UK will be £80bn better off on WTO rules. I look forward to the release of this data so that we can also get that windfall, as I am sure other EU countries are eager for it as well.

Britain would get £80 billion boost from a no deal Brexit, Jacob Rees-Mogg claims

The Report by Economists for Free Trade

https://www.economistsforfreetrade.com/who-we-are/

This might be where this 80Bn figure comes from.. an attempt to discredit civil servants

https://www.economistsforfreetrade.com/News/civil-servants-totally-misleading-public-on-cost-of-leaving-customs-union/

based on a report completed in May

https://www.economistsforfreetrade.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/EFT-How-the-Civil-Service-has-misled-us-on-costs-of-Brexit-and-the-customs-union-May-2018.pdf

ancapailldorcha

First name to appear is Patrick Minford who favours abolishing all tariffs. Can't see farmers, fishermen and manufacturers doing well out of that one.

Imreoir2

Sam Russell wrote: »

Just came through Dublin Airport T1 (on the B gates) and my passport was scanned, so not cursory at all. Every time I have gone through the passport was scanned, either the DIY or manned.

Same, never came through Dublin Airport without having passport checked.