Brexit discussion thread IV

Beechwoodspark

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Bojo is being quoted on the BBC News ticker: 'backstop is an attempt to annex NI'.

Dangerous language from a dangerous clown.

He’s a desperate man desperate for attention at this stage.

FrancieBrady

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Bojo is being quoted on the BBC News ticker: 'backstop is an attempt to annex NI'.

Dangerous language from a dangerous clown.

It is how the DUP will see it, have no doubt about that Tom.

Water John

The whole paradox being, it stabilises NI's present constitutional position.
The deluded clowns. The cows of NI were Irish cows when it suited Ian Paisley Snr.

Nody

Infini wrote: »

Calm yourself now, I said WORST CASE POSSIBILITY. I doubt that it could get to that stage expecially if the likes of the anti-border groups were to organise into a reunification movement. That being said it could get ugly if there's the forced implimentation of a Hard Border against the wishes of the local population. My point was that no other border in the EU has the same historical connotations associated with it than the Irish Border or the fact that a bloody and vicious sectarian conflict was fought precisely over this border.

I guess then that the Bosnian war was something you forgot then? Or how about the Basque seperation movement? Turkish invasion of Cyprus? Corsica's liberation groups? Sorry but the NI border is not somehow unique in having a bloody past connected to it and honestly on the low end in total number of deaths by comparison.

Junkyard Tom

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It is how the DUP will see it, have no doubt about that Tom.

They have to be careful that the British public don't come to view them as the problem. Polls have shown that brexiters favour leaving the EU over keeping the northeast of Ireland under UK jurisdiction.

VonZan

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Johnson isn't an idealist, he is a populist. Freed from having to actually accept any responsibility for how the negotiations pan out, he can now relax and take pot shots at Theresa May knowing that she'll be the one to suffer the consequences. I don't know if it's to sate his ego or if he believes that he is the better man. That it's likely the former is a chilling thought.

Just because he's a populist doesn't mean he can't be an idealist but that may be lost on you.

First Up

VonZan wrote:

Just because he's a populist doesn't mean he can't be an idealist but that may be lost on you.

A dangerous combination.

flatty

May is ramming through what she always planned to, either her deal or no deal. She is the poster person for anti-democracy.
Decent chance of no deal here.

FrancieBrady

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

They have to be careful that the British public don't come to view them as the problem. Polls have shown that brexiters favour leaving the EU over keeping the northeast of Ireland under UK jurisdiction.

Too far into Never Never territory now I fear. They simply won't care.

flatty

I think most mainland brits would absolutely vote for the reunification of Ireland

Anthracite

VonZan wrote: »

Just because he's a populist doesn't mean he can't be an idealist but that may be lost on you.

An idealist tends to have principles. A populist does not.

Does Johnson strike you as a principled man? How so?

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-09-17/irish-said-to-face-eu-tax-pressure-in-return-for-brexit-support?utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&utm_content=canada&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&cmpid%3D=socialflow-twitter-canada

Irish May Face EU Tax Pressure in Return for Brexit Support

mayo.mick

https://twitter.com/cirian75/status/1041675450853060609

VonZan

Anthracite wrote: »

An idealist tends to have principles. A populist does not.

Does Johnson strike you as a principled man? How so?

No they don't... Idealists tend to be out of touch with reality, hence the word 'ideal'. I'm not sure why some people on here think you can't be both a populist and an idealist.

Simply, you're wrong; Idealists aren't people with strong principles by their very nature.

judeboy101

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-09-17/irish-said-to-face-eu-tax-pressure-in-return-for-brexit-support?utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&utm_content=canada&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&cmpid%3D=socialflow-twitter-canada

Irish May Face EU Tax Pressure in Return for Brexit Support

The penny dropeth

El Weirdo

judeboy101 wrote: »

The penny dropeth

Some European Union members may press Ireland to drop its opposition to wide-ranging corporate tax reform in return for the bloc’s backing on Brexit, a person familiar with the matter said.

.

Hurrache

The random times I catch the press review on Sky News I'm unfortunate that Brendan O'Neil is on it. No deal would not at all be a disaster, it's the EU pushing them towards a no deal, and he claims the EU won't let the UK leave. Oh, and politics of fear from the ruthless unpleasant EU, a nasty organisation. All his words.

Hurrache

judeboy101 wrote: »

The penny dropeth

How will they convince every other country with the same stance as Ireland then?

I think Brexit is of much more importance to the EU than them letting things slide out of spite to Ireland.

Some European Union members may press Ireland to drop its opposition to wide-ranging corporate tax reform in return for the bloc’s backing on Brexit, a person familiar with the matter said.

While no explicit link has yet been made between Ireland’s resistance to a digital tax and the EU’s efforts to avoid a hard border after Brexit, solidarity doesn’t come for free, according to the European official, who asked not to be identified because they aren’t authorized to speak publicly on the matter.

Reads like nonsense and mischievous making.

Christy42

El Weirdo wrote: »

judeboy101 wrote: »

The penny dropeth

Some European Union members may press Ireland to drop its opposition to wide-ranging corporate tax reform in return for the bloc’s backing on Brexit, a person familiar with the matter said.

.

Wonder if they have gone with the business insider tactic of quoting UKIP anonymously so they don't admit the story is bogus.

Water John

Just listened to Sir Martin Donnelly on Newsnight. What a clear voice among the noise in the UK. Jobs going and not coming back.

Junkyard Tom

Watching Newsnight it seems as if the BBC suddenly woke up and started putting real issues in front of the public instead of providing a platform to Brexit fantasists who believe Britain holds all the cards.

Trasna1

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-09-17/irish-said-to-face-eu-tax-pressure-in-return-for-brexit-support?utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&utm_content=canada&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&cmpid%3D=socialflow-twitter-canada

Irish May Face EU Tax Pressure in Return for Brexit Support

It was always likely that some European countries would try and extract a price from Ireland for support. I wouldn't expect anything less.

The key for Ireland is to build a blocking coalition of other countries to see off these challenges. Paying more into the budget is clearly part of the strategy.

Panrich

Ireland will be the most affected EU member from Brexit and we cannot also afford to potentially lose FDI from changing our corporation tax policies.

It would be a very poor move politically to isolate us after Brexit. The EU have to guard against a domino effect.

Professor Moriarty

VonZan wrote: »

No they don't... Idealists tend to be out of touch with reality, hence the word 'ideal'. I'm not sure why some people on here think you can't be both a populist and an idealist.

Simply, you're wrong; Idealists aren't people with strong principles by their very nature.

There is no reason why you can't be a populist and principled idealist. Boris isn't an idealist nor is he principled. He is a bit of a populist but essentially he's just a pragmatist with a deep need for self-aggrandisment.

Enzokk

judeboy101 wrote: »

The penny dropeth

Did you read the article before commenting?

Still, Ireland is far from alone in its concerns around the digital tax and efforts to link it to Brexit may flounder. Earlier this month, Malta’s finance chief poured cold water on European efforts to strike a deal on taxing digital companies by the end of the year, saying such a levy should be agreed at a global level.

“This is not just Ireland or Luxembourg or Malta,” Finance Minister Edward Scicluna said in an interview with Bloomberg. “Half of the council, especially the northern countries, understand that it’s foolish to go for a quick fix tax in a complicated area like that.”

Responding to a request for comment, a spokeswoman for Irish Finance Minister Paschal Donohoe pointed to an interview he gave to Politico earlier this month. He said Ireland accepts there needs to be a change to the way the digital economy is taxed, but it can’t be confined to the bloc.

“There are a number of other member states that have concerns in relation to development of policy in this area if it’s done just in Europe,” he said. “We have said that we need to take great care in bringing in further policies that run the risk of undermining progress that could be made globally in relation to this.”

EdgeCase

I'd strongly suspect the anonymous source is probably someone in or close to the British Government who is trying to make mischief tbh.

I think we're going to be faced with a full spin assault form the UK over the next few weeks and months. Things are getting serious and their main aim is to either fracture the Irish government or fracture EU/Irish relations or set a laid of EU countries on Ireland over tax to fracture EU/Irish relations.

The whole thing smells of their usual divide and conquer or 'find the gaps and drive wedges into them' tactics.

Unless a story has a named source, I'd be extremely iffy about it.

Rain Ascending

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Watching Newsnight it seems as if the BBC suddenly woke up and started putting real issues in front of the public instead of providing a platform to Brexit fantasists who believe Britain holds all the cards.

Agreed. It was a remarkable edition of Newsnight

... and I wouldn't be surprised if there is some fallout from some of the editorial decisions. The introduction piece was straightforward enough, but the two panels had a major shift in tone.

On the first, they led with the business editor, who coolly dismantled the claims of "Project Fear", by starting with Jaguar, but continuing on to point out that the story there is consistent with what she was hearing from the rest of the automotive industry. It put the following discussion with the political editor, Nick Watt in context of the realities of Brexit. One gets the feeling that political correspondents generally are struggling to understand the implications of what politicians are saying. A case in point, Newsnight's Evans complained only a week or two ago that the EU's position was difficult to work out!! It was refreshing tonight.

On the second panel, Mairead McGuinness was, as per usual, very unambiguous and logical -- but defending the EU's position very effectively. Martin Donnelly's calm, measured presentation was the eye-opener. His explanation of the NI border issue is one of the best I've heard, focusing as it did on the social dimensions of a hard border -- showing just how important regulatory alignment is to border communities, even more than customs alignment. We haven't heard much on that angle recently ... the focus has been nearly 100% on impediments to trade. I suspect Donnelly is familar with the joint work done by British, Irish and EU officials analyzing the impact of Brexit on the GFA's Strand 2 activities. (Tony Connelly has documented that that analysis showed that leaving the Single Market negatively impacted on all areas of north/south corporation under Strand 2.)

It will be interesting to see if this edition of Newsnight is a once off or represents a shift in the BBC's policy towards Brexit.

Peregrinus

VonZan wrote: »

No they don't... Idealists tend to be out of touch with reality, hence the word 'ideal'. I'm not sure why some people on here think you can't be both a populist and an idealist.

Simply, you're wrong; Idealists aren't people with strong principles by their very nature.

No offence, but this is nonsense.

In the first place, it's simply not true that "idealists tend to be out of touch with reality". On the contrary, they are acutely aware of the gap between the real and the ideal, distressed by it, and preoccupied with bridging it. You may think that these are good traits or that they are not but, either way, they certainly do not support the claim that idealists are out of touch with reality.

In the second place, even if idealists were out of touch with reality, how would it follow that "they aren't people with strong principles"? Principles are ideals; if anything idealists are more likely to consider principles to be important, and to be worth making sacrifices for, than realists.

Peregrinus

Sassygirl1999 wrote: »

its clear the EU are getting cold feet about the strength of the back stop , watering it down today

Not at all. The EU has been keen to "de-dramatize" the backstop for months now, and has said so repeatedly. What this means, basically, is getting the UK to stop hyperventilating about increased regulatory controls between GB and NI being an attempt to "annex" NI and an international crime on a parallel with the Partitions of Poland. What we are seeing today is the UK preparing to make this shift, by positioning the acceptance of de-dramatization as a victory for the UK and a climbdown by the EU. The EU is quite happy for the UK to spin the thing this way, if it smooths the road to agreement. The EU gets the substance of the win; the UK gets the spin - that's a fairly common way of fudging a difficult issue, and one the EU is entirely comfortable with.

Peregrinus

judeboy101 wrote: »

How does this solve the free movement of eu non Irish across the ni "border"? Or services north and south?

Free movement across the Irish border was never seen by the UK as a problem. They have intended all along to maintain the CTA. Their mode of controlling migration from EU was never going to be through border controls, but through employment checks, rental checks, checks on school enrolment, accessing health services, social security, etc, etc. Whatever other problems an open border presents, it's not a problem for UK enforcement of its migration policy.