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Brexit discussion thread IV

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  • Registered Users Posts: 632 ✭✭✭Rhineshark


    Works both ways, who is the Irish people going to blame for a disastrous Brexit ?

    UK as it entirely deserves.

    I'm sure some people will lie blue in the face that it was all the EU bullying the UK and we should leave because corporation tax but those people are a) liars, b) were listening to liars, c) zealots and/or d) generally badly disguised UKIPpers.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,170 ✭✭✭flatty


    Imreoir2 wrote: »
    Harika wrote: »
    So his hate on the EU is bigger than the will to power? Strange politician he is.
    And as said, as long he wants to go over the cliff edge, a GA won't miraculously put greens and lib dems in power.

    Oh he wants power all right, but after Brexit, when he can implement his policies without the EU holding him back and still blame everything on the Tories for making a mess of Brexit in the first place.
    His problem here, although it may end up being someone else's, is that the tories will then simply blame the ongoing deep recession on Labour, and the country will vote Labour out at the earliest opportunity.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,629 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    It seems TM made a boo boo this morning. That is what unleashed the anger. She told Varadkar that their proposal to solve the Irish border would not be delivered in time for the October summit. Really pi***d off the other EU leaders when they heard it. Tusk was told to deliver the message.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/20/macron-puts-the-boot-in-after-mays-brexit-breakfast-blunder

    The EU were all for giving her positive words prior to her party conference, before this.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,135 ✭✭✭kowtow


    Water John wrote: »
    It seems TM made a boo boo this morning. That is what unleashed the anger. She told Varadkar that their proposal to solve the Irish border would not be delivered in time for the October summit. Really pi***d off the other EU leaders when they heard it. Tusk was told to deliver the message.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/20/macron-puts-the-boot-in-after-mays-brexit-breakfast-blunder

    The EU were all for giving her positive words prior to her party conference, before this.

    Good article that and no reason to disbelieve it. It shows just what a knife edge these negotiations are on.

    The immediate briefing from downing st is to "give the EU one more chance" on the basis that they often overstep the mark...

    The problem for May is that a breakdown like today makes her look incompetent and simultaneously garners support for a "harder" line vs the EU - i.e. a JRM approach.

    She now needs to go to conference justifying both Chequers and the EU's behaviour.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,053 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Rhineshark wrote: »
    UK as it entirely deserves.

    I'm sure some people will lie blue in the face that it was all the EU bullying the UK and we should leave because corporation tax but those people are a) liars, b) were listening to liars, c) zealots and/or d) generally badly disguised UKIPpers.

    Will anyone believe them though? If Brexit goes belly up, it will be nearly impossible for the English nationalists to pin it on the EU.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,746 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    I would not walk away that's for certain. Play the game till the end when you put the cards on the table.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBJYl4YgwMY


    I don't know if I can take any advice from Donald Trump seriously. He talks from the point of view of the USA, which will be the dominant partner in 99% of negotiations. If she goes that way she will tie herself to the US, which may be what he wants, and that will be a disaster for the UK.

    Anyone give any thoughts what would happen to the border between us and NI in the case of no deal and what the GFA would mean in that case? I understand that there will need to be borders between the UK and the EU, but what effect will the GFA have on this? Surely a signed international treaty will need to be adhered to by the UK so they will need to keep the border open as per the GFA.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,282 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Strazdas wrote: »
    Will anyone believe them though? If Brexit goes belly up, it will be nearly impossible for the English nationalists to pin it on the EU.

    Enough of the right people won't believe them. Once job losses ramp up and SMEs start collapsing and the cost of basic consumer goods rocket, JRM and Redwood and the rest of the swivel eyed loons will be left stammering 'but..but...but:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,135 ✭✭✭kowtow


    Enzokk wrote: »
    I don't know if I can take any advice from Donald Trump seriously. He talks from the point of view of the USA, which will be the dominant partner in 99% of negotiations. If she goes that way she will tie herself to the US, which may be what he wants, and that will be a disaster for the UK.

    Anyone give any thoughts what would happen to the border between us and NI in the case of no deal and what the GFA would mean in that case? I understand that there will need to be borders between the UK and the EU, but what effect will the GFA have on this? Surely a signed international treaty will need to be adhered to by the UK so they will need to keep the border open as per the GFA.

    If there is a no deal I'd be deadly certain that the UK would do nothing whatsoever to put a border there until they had exhausted every possibility and were forced to do so by the WTO or whatever.

    Virtually every mainland British politician has come out and said that no border is wanted or needed if they have been asked the question.

    Varadkar will try to do the same (he mentioned it again yesterday...)

    It's a game of reverse chicken.

    So ironically the best way to really ensure that there is never a border is probably to make sure there is no deal!


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,730 ✭✭✭brickster69


    Water John wrote: »
    It seems TM made a boo boo this morning. That is what unleashed the anger. She told Varadkar that their proposal to solve the Irish border would not be delivered in time for the October summit. Really pi***d off the other EU leaders when they heard it. Tusk was told to deliver the message.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/20/macron-puts-the-boot-in-after-mays-brexit-breakfast-blunder

    The EU were all for giving her positive words prior to her party conference, before this.
    My God, are you guy's believing the UK press now ?
    https://www.independent.ie/business/brexit/eu-leaders-to-hold-extra-brexit-summit-in-november-sources-37336456.html
    https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/taoiseach-meets-with-theresa-may-in-austria-870264.html

    "if you get on the wrong train, get off at the nearest station, the longer it takes you to get off, the more expensive the return trip will be."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,806 ✭✭✭An Ciarraioch


    Water John wrote: »
    It seems TM made a boo boo this morning. That is what unleashed the anger. She told Varadkar that their proposal to solve the Irish border would not be delivered in time for the October summit. Really pi***d off the other EU leaders when they heard it. Tusk was told to deliver the message.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/20/macron-puts-the-boot-in-after-mays-brexit-breakfast-blunder

    The EU were all for giving her positive words prior to her party conference, before this.
    My God, are you guy's believing the UK press now ?
    https://www.independent.ie/business/brexit/eu-leaders-to-hold-extra-brexit-summit-in-november-sources-37336456.html
    https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/taoiseach-meets-with-theresa-may-in-austria-870264.html

    In fairness, Water John's post is pretty much verbatim what RTE were saying this afternoon.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,806 ✭✭✭An Ciarraioch


    Corbyn rules out a second referendum - cue voter exodus to the Lib Dems?

    https://mobile.twitter.com/nickeardleybbc/status/1042806209240342528


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,629 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    brickster, your looking at stories filed earlier today. Your 2 sources and The Guardian are reputable sources. Nationality of the news source is irrelevant.
    the story has moved on during the day.
    The Independent simply didn't cop that what TM said re: Oct summit was important.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    but why do it now? Why not wait until after the Tory conference and deny her enemies the opportunity to stick the knife in?


    They offered to help her out, said chequers was positive (with some work needed) and de-dramatized the Irish Sea border by using her "technology" baloney as code.


    And she flat rejected it, said Chequers or nothing to their faces in Salzburg.
    Okey-dokey - nothing it is.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,730 ✭✭✭brickster69


    So ironically the best way to really ensure that there is never a border is probably to make sure there is no deal!
    That's the only way to guarantee a hard border i'm afraid. The two parties whose border it is do not want a hard border, but the EU have to insist on it. ( i think )

    "if you get on the wrong train, get off at the nearest station, the longer it takes you to get off, the more expensive the return trip will be."



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,730 ✭✭✭brickster69


    @waterjohn
    Nationality of the news source is irrelevant.
    Of course, but they are when no quotes from specific people are involved. How many UK papers are making reports from " unconfirmed sources " and people on here believing them ?

    "if you get on the wrong train, get off at the nearest station, the longer it takes you to get off, the more expensive the return trip will be."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,629 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    I prefaced my post with the fact that all 3 sources are reputable. Extreme rags are not included.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,135 ✭✭✭kowtow


    Water John wrote: »
    I prefaced my post with the fact that all 3 sources are reputable. Extreme rags are not included.

    There are those who would think the grauniad an extreme rag.

    Whenever my lefty sister chance to open it at home my Father would set light to it!


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,746 ✭✭✭Enzokk



    I am not sure what your point is here. It is obvious from the tweets of journalists and the way the stories have changed during the afternoon that journalists were being briefed on how the talks and meetings were progressing. This changed very quickly with Macron changing the EU position and throwing Theresa May under the bus. It will then seem that the stories from earlier are wrong, but that is because the talks changed very quickly.

    So ironically the best way to really ensure that there is never a border is probably to make sure there is no deal!
    That's the only way to guarantee a hard border i'm afraid. The two parties whose border it is do not want a hard border, but the EU have to insist on it. ( i think )


    I was just wondering seeing that the GFA is an agreement that is apart from the EU so even with the UK outside of the EU they still have a signed international agreement they have to abide by. Being a member of the EU has nothing to do with it, otherwise Brexit would have been cancelled already, right?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,730 ✭✭✭brickster69


    Yes it is a signed agreement between the UK and Ireland. The guarantors were the USA ie. only 3 parties involved. Why did Ireland get the EU to negotiate that agreement on behalf of themselves ?

    Were they not confident enough to sort things out together and then go to the EU  with a joint proposal both sides were happy with ?

    "if you get on the wrong train, get off at the nearest station, the longer it takes you to get off, the more expensive the return trip will be."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,058 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    So ironically the best way to really ensure that there is never a border is probably to make sure there is no deal!
    That's the only way to guarantee a hard border i'm afraid. The two parties whose border it is do not want a hard border, but the EU have to insist on it. ( i think )


    We are the EU.



    ...


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,058 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Yes it is a signed agreement between the UK and Ireland. The guarantors were the USA ie. only 3 parties involved. Why did Ireland get the EU to negotiate that agreement on behalf of themselves ?

    Were they not confident enough to sort things out together and then go to the EU  with a joint proposal both sides were happy with ?

    Because we are the EU.

    And yeah we are the EU


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,264 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    kowtow wrote: »
    There are those who would think the grauniad an extreme rag.

    Whenever my lefty sister chance to open it at home my Father would set light to it!

    Mod: Use proper names please.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,730 ✭✭✭brickster69


    listermint wrote: »
    So ironically the best way to really ensure that there is never a border is probably to make sure there is no deal!
    That's the only way to guarantee a hard border i'm afraid. The two parties whose border it is do not want a hard border, but the EU have to insist on it. ( i think )


    We are the EU.



    ...
    You're not, you are Ireland. You decide where and if a  border goes on your territory. How can you give that up to another party ?

    "if you get on the wrong train, get off at the nearest station, the longer it takes you to get off, the more expensive the return trip will be."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,135 ✭✭✭kowtow


    Mod: Use proper names please.

    I'm at a loss?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 320 ✭✭VonZan


    Of course an idealist can have principles. That's just a fact. Ergo, a principled idealist.

    I described him as a self-aggrandising pragmatist who tends towards populism. He is self-aggrandising because he places personal ambition above ethics as is evident by his career in and out of politics. He's a pragmatist because he places ambition above ideals, loyalty and principle. His recent volte face on Chequers being a prime example. If you need proof that he tends towards populism then you should read some of his articles.

    I suggest you look up the definition of pragmatic before we continue. I have already stated that I think he's a bit of a populist and that isn't an example of pragmatism.


  • Registered Users Posts: 855 ✭✭✭mickoneill31


    You're not, you are Ireland. You decide where and if a  border goes on your territory. How can you give that up to another party ?

    We're part of the single market. If we want to exit the single market we can open our borders up to the world. If we want to remain with it, there are requirements. We are not that stupid that we'd leave it (I hope).

    How can people not have an understanding of this at this late stage?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,234 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    From The Guardian again, I haven't read such a scathingly stick the knife in article in a long time

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/20/theresa-may-in-denial-after-her-salzburg-ordeal


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,689 ✭✭✭flutered


    demfad wrote: »
    Trasna1 wrote: »
    I suppose it would solve the problem of needing imported labour to pick fruit, since it would put all growers out of business.
    VinLieger wrote: »
    That would make the whole new plan of having checks between the UK and NI absolutely pointless, its almost like none of them know what the others are up to.

    Also agreed it will destroy the UK produce industry, cant wait to see them wondering why all their traditional foodstuffs suddenly taste sh1te while paying 50% less for them
    Leroy42 wrote: »
    ^ and that is why, IMO, all this compromising and working together by the EU towards the UK is pointless.

    A large driver of BRexit is wanting to Take Back Control, and in order to get better trade deals that the UK currently have they will need to drop standards.  It is only a matter of time before large differences exist.  What the UK are hoping for is that small divergences won't, of themselves, be enough to create a problem.

    But this is only going one way if the UK are allowed to special treatment.

    I think there is going to be a major crises. It is actually vital for the EU that the truth that the cause is with UK side is visible. If impressionable people in the UK (and there are many clearly) blame the EU for their misfortunes, what rises next could be very ugly indeed.

    We also see the establishment of a permanent US sentry in Europe as a strategic move against the third superpower (EU). Having this in our Union is bad enough, on our Island intolerable.
    has not poland offered trump $2m to open an american base there


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,058 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    You're not, you are Ireland. You decide where and if a  border goes on your territory. How can you give that up to another party ?

    The EU has borders presently the UK polices the EU borders of which the UK is the EU.


    I'm not sure why this is so difficult.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,135 ✭✭✭kowtow


    listermint wrote: »
    The EU has borders presently the UK polices the EU borders of which the UK is the EU.


    I'm not sure why this is so difficult.

    Difficult aside

    As late as yesterday Varadkar said we were investing in infrastructure for no deal - and added hurriedly something like "but not a border, well never do that!"... I may not have his words exactly.

    In the event of a no deal who do you think will be the first to put infrastructure on the border? And if it's us, will it be politically manageable?


This discussion has been closed.
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