Brexit discussion thread IV

ancapailldorcha

revelman wrote: »

I think the Brits have said some silly and unhelpful things. But the key point I am trying to stress is the inequality of bargaining power. Half of the UK's exports go to the rest of the EU. Only 8% of the rest of the EU's exports go to the UK. In any negotiation, the more powerful party has special responsibilities

This was known before the referendum. It's yet another reason that a full plan should have been made in anticipation of a Leave vote.

An Ciarraioch

megaten wrote: »

revelman wrote: »

I know I said I was going back to the weather forum but one last point. Whatever one's views on Brexit, I think most can agree that it is better to have civil discourse in the exit negotiations. That is not to say that things wont get heated but when they do politicians on both sides have a responsibility not to dramatise.

I don't think smarmy social media post are helpful but where would you go in the UK to get civil discourse over Brexit?

EU Referendum blog and the Digital Spy Politics forum are both fairly open-minded.

megaten

revelman wrote: »

I think the Brits have said some silly and unhelpful things. But the key point I am trying to stress is the inequality of bargaining power. Half of the UK's exports go to the rest of the EU. Only 8% of the rest of the EU's exports go to the UK. In any negotiation, the more powerful party has special responsibilities

The UK don't want to see the EU as a more powerful party. Are you suggesting the EU should coddle the UK government against their will?

kowtow

megaten wrote: »

The UK don't want to see the EU as a more powerful party. Are you suggesting the EU should coddle the UK government against their will?

hedgehog to hedgehog?...

kowtow

kowtow wrote: »

hedgehog to hedgehog?...

A bit more detail would be good.

RobertKK

Leaders of other countries know England/the UK has been use to getting it's own way and now these countries including Ireland finds themselves in a far stronger position than the UK is.
I am not saying that is a factor, but the future of the EU is at stake and the UK so use to getting it's own way - Theresa May reported as telling the EU last year that the UK was a far more important country than Ireland - that talk was shot down.
The UK thought it could use the size of its economy as a bargaining chip. The major problems the UK have are it does want a cake with cherries, cream, chocolate, something for everything. They are leaving so the cake lacks the nice things they were use to.
Theresa May says she won't budge and the EU will be far less affected by Brexit. It isn't exactly a great way to bargain.
Macron obviously fed up when he rightly said the liars who pushed for Brexit were quick to disappear.

It is amazing how when the British thought they were clever when they kept a part of Ireland in the UK back in 1921, that near 100 years later it is coming back to bite them.
The people who pushed for Brexit and said this would be "the easiest trade deal in history" are looking foolish. "They need us more than we need them", the German carmakers will twist Merkel's arm.
There has been an empire mindset among some leading Brexiteers, appointing too much self importance and that others would have to jump to accommodate the demands of the UK.
The UK should be worried, they won't be the main leading power in Western Europe when they leave the EU, the EU will continue to be the main power.

Brexit happened due to lies pushed by people suffering from delusions and too much self importance. We live in a world where we need others and others include other countries.
It was funny last night on Question Time when one person said the Prime Minister is left with trying to dance in Africa to get trade deals.

ArmaniJeanss

megaten wrote: »

I don't think smarmy social media post are helpful but where would you go in the UK to get civil discourse over Brexit?

Would recommend Digital Spy Politics as suggested above.
https://forums.digitalspy.com/categories/politics
It has the advantage of being similar to this forum in that most of the posters aren't purely political animals, instead they came to the site to discuss tv programs or sport and there happened to be a political forum there.

Sassygirl1999

TM - Brexit means Brexit EU - yes but what does Brexit actually mean?TM - Brexit means Brexit EU - yes but what does Brexit actually mean?TM - Brexit means Brexit EU - yes but what does Brexit actually mean?TM - Brexit means Brexit EU - yes but what does Brexit actually mean?...we are stuck in the Brexit vortex

Infini

revelman wrote: »

I think the Brits have said some silly and unhelpful things. But the key point I am trying to stress is the inequality of bargaining power. Half of the UK's exports go to the rest of the EU. Only 8% of the rest of the EU's exports go to the UK. In any negotiation, the more powerful party has special responsibilities

We can only negotiate in good faith if the other side does so in turn. All we've gotten though is immature threats, persistent arguing over points repeately pointed out as unworkable and risking compromising the single market and arguments that aren't constuctive or helpful.

Imreoir2

Deleted User wrote: »

I wonder if perhaps the general feeling in this thread is similar to Brexit itself. Lots of posters, including me feeling that them crashing out, while not a preferable option, is seen as a greater good.

Is this an echo chamber?

No, if anything I am probably one of the more hardline posters in this thread. No-deal is still not any kind of greater good though, it is one of the worst outcomes.

It is much worse than the UK staying in the EU, it is worse than the UK leaving the EU and staying in the CU&SM, it is worse than an FTA + Backstop, but it is not worse than the kind of deal the UK wants. The UK proposal would be a disaster for the EU, our interests are far too tied up with the future of the EU to allow a deal that would undermine the EU.

No-deal is a price worth paying to prevent a bad deal, but it is still a high price to pay. It will have significant consequences, pushing a border poll in NI onto the agenda much sooner than would have been the case otherwise, pushing Scotland to reconsider independance and creating a crisis in one of our most important neighbours. This part of the world is going to be destablised for the next decade if we get a no-deal Brexit.

The thing we have to keep in mind though, is that a deal that creates a permenant agreed hard border or a deal that undermines the future of the EU are not a better outcome. If the UK gos through with a no-deal Brexit rather than accept one of the other options, then there was nothing we could have done. No-deal is the greatest leverage that we can apply. If even that does not induce them to adopt an acceptable position, then no other strategy could have had more success.

Thatnastyboy

Sassygirl1999 wrote: »

TM - Brexit means Brexit EU - yes but what does Brexit actually mean?TM - Brexit means Brexit EU - yes but what does Brexit actually mean?TM - Brexit means Brexit EU - yes but what does Brexit actually mean?TM - Brexit means Brexit EU - yes but what does Brexit actually mean?...we are stuck in the Brexit vortex

Apparently: "It means brexit, now get on with it"


To paraphrase a brexiteer I spoke with a few months ago - "It means closing our borders and basically continuing as before but without giving the EU billions every year"


The whole thing hurts my face to be honest.

Calina

revelman wrote: »

sameoldname wrote: »

To be honest, I find the most offensive stuff to be coming out of British mouths. The closest you could say anyone has been to undiplomatic on the EU side has been Guy Verhofstadt and he isn't really too much of a key figure.

I think the Brits have said some silly and unhelpful things. But the key point I am trying to stress is the inequality of bargaining power. Half of the UK's exports go to the rest of the EU. Only 8% of the rest of the EU's exports go to the UK. In any negotiation, the more powerful party has special responsibilities

Why are you trying to stress something this entire forum takes for granted? We know there is a major disparity in negotiating positions. The problem is the UK does not appear to understand it. We are not the people you need to educate about this. The UK on the other hand does not appear to be able to come to terms with this. In thd same way as the fact that they voted for Brexit so all of the negative outcomes, regardless of where they fall, be it in the EU or the UK, are owned by the UK. The UK is responsible for this mess.

It is patently obvious that they assumed that they could have all the advantages of EU membership without any of the sacrifices. Reading the treaties would have made it clear that they could not. Yet they still do not appear to have recognised or accepted this and so they keep asking for the sweeties they do not want to pay for.

You know what might have got May somewhere? Honesty to her own country. Telling them two years ago what the options were, what the costs were, what sacrifices would be necessary. But she didn't do that. Tusk has dealt with the cake and cherry metaphor several times since Johnson did his I believe We Can Have Our Cake And Eat It performance two years ago.

The EU politicians and administrators are dealing in reality and getting castigated for it. The UK is has been prancing aro6nd fantasyland for two years, aided and abetted by the Daily Express. At what point do you think the UK needs to face reality?

Calina

Thatnastyboy wrote: »

Sassygirl1999 wrote: »

TM - Brexit means Brexit EU - yes but what does Brexit actually mean?TM - Brexit means Brexit EU - yes but what does Brexit actually mean?TM - Brexit means Brexit EU - yes but what does Brexit actually mean?TM - Brexit means Brexit EU - yes but what does Brexit actually mean?...we are stuck in the Brexit vortex

Apparently: "It means brexit, now get on with it"


To paraphrase a brexiteer I spoke with a few months ago - "It means closing our borders and basically continuing as before but without giving the EU billions every year"


The whole thing hurts my face to be honest.

Yeah except the NI border. They are willing to leave that wide open because it's well, Ireland's fault a border something something

Spook_ie

RobertKK wrote: »

Leaders of other countries know England/the UK has been use to getting it's own way and now these countries including Ireland finds themselves in a far stronger position than the UK is.
I am not saying that is a factor, but the future of the EU is at stake and the UK so use to getting it's own way - Theresa May reported as telling the EU last year that the UK was a far more important country than Ireland - that talk was shot down.
The UK thought it could use the size of its economy as a bargaining chip. The major problems the UK have are it does want a cake with cherries, cream, chocolate, something for everything. They are leaving so the cake lacks the nice things they were use to.
Theresa May says she won't budge and the EU will be far less affected by Brexit. It isn't exactly a great way to bargain.
Macron obviously fed up when he rightly said the liars who pushed for Brexit were quick to disappear.

It is amazing how when the British thought they were clever when they kept a part of Ireland in the UK back in 1921, that near 100 years later it is coming back to bite them.
The people who pushed for Brexit and said this would be "the easiest trade deal in history" are looking foolish. "They need us more than we need them", the German carmakers will twist Merkel's arm.
There has been an empire mindset among some leading Brexiteers, appointing too much self importance and that others would have to jump to accommodate the demands of the UK.
The UK should be worried, they won't be the main leading power in Western Europe when they leave the EU, the EU will continue to be the main power.

Brexit happened due to lies pushed by people suffering from delusions and too much self importance. We live in a world where we need others and others include other countries.
It was funny last night on Question Time when one person said the Prime Minister is left with trying to dance in Africa to get trade deals.

The EU won't be a main power at all, it's too divided between 27 heads of state, it might be a huge trading bloc but to call them a power would be wishful thinking.

Sassygirl1999

Thatnastyboy wrote: »

Apparently: "It means brexit, now get on with it"


To paraphrase a brexiteer I spoke with a few months ago - "It means closing our borders and basically continuing as before but without giving the EU billions every year"


The whole thing hurts my face to be honest.

BBC interviewing farmers all around the UK yesterday
Majority were saying :
"I didn't vote for it but lets just get on with it"
A democratic car crash in slow motion

zapitastas

Sassygirl1999 wrote: »

TM - Brexit means Brexit EU - yes but what does Brexit actually mean?TM - Brexit means Brexit EU - yes but what does Brexit actually mean?TM - Brexit means Brexit EU - yes but what does Brexit actually mean?TM - Brexit means Brexit EU - yes but what does Brexit actually mean?...we are stuck in the Brexit vortex

To be completely fair to May, she did elaborate once when she said that it was going to be a red, white and blue brexit . That brought crystal clear clarity to the situation

Thatnastyboy

Calina wrote: »

Yeah except the NI border. They are willing to leave that wide open because it's well, Ireland's fault a border something something

Apologies, yes I was supposed to add - the response to that was "If you want a border so bad why don't you put it up"


Yaaa

Professor Moriarty

Sassygirl1999 wrote: »

BBC interviewing farmers all around the UK yesterday
Majority were saying :
"I didn't vote for it but lets just get on with it"
A democratic car crash in slow motion

It would be nice if somewhere, sometime, a British person/politician/party actually acknowledged and apologised for the damage Brexit will do to Ireland.

rob316

Just like the American Presidential election it all came down to immigration. The consequences for the UK are far worse than voting in Trump though.

Eat ****, go back to the polls and forget the whole thing ever happened.

Calina

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Sassygirl1999 wrote: »

BBC interviewing farmers all around the UK yesterday
Majority were saying :
"I didn't vote for it but lets just get on with it"
A democratic car crash in slow motion

It would be nice if somewhere, sometime, a British person/politician/party actually acknowledged and apologised for the damage Brexit will do to Ireland.

They won't. The objective in some corners is to drag Ireland with them. A chunk of Brexit supporters do not just want to leave the EU, they want to destroy it.

The US cheerleaders really should have a look at the way the US treated the UK un debt negotiations post WW II as well. Benign is not the way to describe it.

Sassygirl1999

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

It would be nice if somewhere, sometime, a British person/politician/party actually acknowledged and apologised for the damage Brexit will do to Ireland.

did ireland ever get any sort of an apology from Britain? It's a stormy historical relationship , always was always will be

Inquitus

Spook_ie wrote: »

The EU won't be a main power at all, it's too divided between 27 heads of state, it might be a huge trading bloc but to call them a power would be wishful thinking.

The EU is one of the main powers of the world, it's just soft power rather than military. As the world's 2nd largest economy it can't be anything but really, and the EU's foreign policy generally all points in the same direction despite being made up of 27 member states.

revelman

Sassygirl1999 wrote: »

did ireland ever get any sort of an apology from Britain? It's a stormy historical relationship , always was always will be

We got an apology from Cameron for the famine.

Sassygirl1999

revelman wrote: »

We got an apology from Cameron for the famine.

Blair?

Calina

revelman wrote: »

Sassygirl1999 wrote: »

did ireland ever get any sort of an apology from Britain? It's a stormy historical relationship , always was always will be

We got an apology from Cameron for the famine.

Actually Tony Blair, not Cameron

zapitastas

revelman wrote: »

We got an apology from Cameron for the famine.

That was Blair, Cameron was bloody Sunday

Professor Moriarty

Calina wrote: »

They won't. The objective in some corners is to drag Ireland with them. A chunk of Brexit supporters do not just want to leave the EU, they want to destroy it.

The US cheerleaders really should have a look at the way the US treated the UK un debt negotiations post WW II as well. Benign is not the way to describe it.

Despite the overwhelming support for EU membership in Ireland, Farage and his ilk still spout the lie that Ireland will soon follow Britain with an Irexit. As long as the EU exists in its current form, there'll be an Irexit over my dead body.

murphaph

Calina wrote: »

They won't. The objective in some corners is to drag Ireland with them. A chunk of Brexit supporters do not just want to leave the EU, they want to destroy it.

The US cheerleaders really should have a look at the way the US treated the UK un debt negotiations post WW II as well. Benign is not the way to describe it.

Yes they want to destroy (to use one of May's favourites) our precious union. To hell with them. The EU has its flaws but it is a marvel that is envied around the world. Let them leave now and discover what Brexit means. I feel terribly sad for remainers but they don't have the numbers.

Sassygirl1999

Calina wrote: »

Actually Tony Blair, not Cameron

he did not explicitly apologise for the famine.

Rather the current Middle East envoy said that the fact Ireland had gone through a famine which killed one million people was something “that still causes pain as we reflect on it today” and added: “We must not forget such a dreadful event.” There was no explicit apology.
http://www.thejournal.ie/bbc-presenter-paxman-hits-out-at-tony-blair-over-potato-famine-apology-362150-Feb2012/

Itssoeasy

I've just watched the actual speech given by Theresa May. It sounded like a temporary teacher who can't control the class and starts ranting at the pupils to respect her and she has shown them respect.

Also the transport secretary this morning(well it was from last night I think) saying the EU need to be more flexible on the Irish border.

I think lads we can put the hopes of a brexit deal in the brown bin. Utter madness from a supposed world power. These lads are meant to be one of the top crowd at sorting this stuff.