Brexit discussion thread IV

judeboy101

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Excellent article. Johnson toasted May's deal on Friday night and resigned because he couldn't stomach the deal on Monday. Shallow, elitist and incompetent ambition in a nutshell.

In fairness, we have all been at weekend office parties where we promise some fugly the moon and stars because all your friends were doing it too and then regreted it Monday when you see her with the beer goggles off.

Professor Moriarty

judeboy101 wrote: »

In fairness, we have all been at weekend office parties where we promise some fugly the moon and stars because all your friends were doing it too and then regreted it Monday when you see her with the beer goggles off.

You weren't foreign secretary of Britain at the time. Or am I being presumptuous?

listermint

judeboy101 wrote: »

In fairness, we have all been at weekend office parties where we promise some fugly the moon and stars because all your friends were doing it too and then regreted it Monday when you see her with the beer goggles off.

Erm??

This is not a weekend office party, its the future of an entire nation.

Should'nt be so glib. Boris is a detestable individual and exemplifies a typical tory.

judeboy101

So we have to be flexible now?

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2018/0710/977567-brexit-cabinet/

Leroy42

judeboy101 wrote: »

Future of an entire nation? That's a wee bit melodramatic.

Which bit? The future, it is certainly dealing with that.

Entire nation? well this isn't just about Cornwall or Dorset.

Is it the ' of an' that you think is overplayed?

judeboy101

Leroy42 wrote: »

Which bit? The future, it is certainly dealing with that.

Entire nation? well this isn't just about Cornwall or Dorset.

Is it the ' of an' that you think is overplayed?

Because the day after it crashes out, it will still be the UK, trading under wto rules just like loads of other countries do. No apocalypse, no rivers of blood, just average everyday boring Brits. Blitz mentality will kick in and they will do just fine.

VinLieger

judeboy101 wrote: »

Because the day after it crashes out, it will still be the UK, trading under wto rules just like loads of other countries do. No apocalypse, no rivers of blood, just average everyday boring Brits. Blitz mentality will kick in and they will do just fine.

Blitz mentality will magically nullify the massive customs queues that will happen with a hard brexit that they needed to start preparing and planning for last year and still have done nothing on?

charlie14

VinLieger wrote: »

Blitz mentality will magically nullify the massive customs queues that will happen with a hard brexit that they needed to start preparing and planning for last year and still have done nothing on?

The British invented queuing. They love a nice orderly queue. Even if it is over a cliff.

Sam Russell

judeboy101 wrote: »

Because the day after it crashes out, it will still be the UK, trading under wto rules just like loads of other countries do. No apocalypse, no rivers of blood, just average everyday boring Brits. Blitz mentality will kick in and they will do just fine.

I suppose the Blitz mentality will help with the lack of planes flying overhead.

The WTO rules will require loads of customs declarations that they have not had to deal with for twenty years. Yea, Blitz mentality will help with that.

The 'fresh' food products rotting in the back of trucks waiting for days at Calais trying to get on a ferry. Yea, Blitz mentality will help with that as well.

I do not think there are many still alive that actually experienced the 'Blitz' first hand, (they would be well over 80 by now) so mentality is perhaps the wrong word for it - perhaps myth might be more accurate. If the V2 bombs had gone on a few weeks more, the spirit would have evaporated, and Londoners would have been looking for serious relief.

It will not be pretty.

Imreoir2

judeboy101 wrote: »

Because the day after it crashes out, it will still be the UK, trading under wto rules just like loads of other countries do. No apocalypse, no rivers of blood, just average everyday boring Brits. Blitz mentality will kick in and they will do just fine.

Sure, no flights in or out of the country for an indefinate period of time will hardily be noticed.

TomOnBoard

judeboy101 wrote: »

Because the day after it crashes out, it will still be the UK, trading under wto rules just like loads of other countries do. No apocalypse, no rivers of blood, just average everyday boring Brits. Blitz mentality will kick in and they will do just fine.

Seems very strange for a whole people to place themselves in a situation where a blitz mentality is needed for survival... Talk about national self-harming on a grand scale...

Igotadose

judeboy101 wrote: »

Because the day after it crashes out, it will still be the UK, trading under wto rules just like loads of other countries do. No apocalypse, no rivers of blood, just average everyday boring Brits. Blitz mentality will kick in and they will do just fine.

Uhh... the NHS has a delay and the country goes insane, and this is the personality that'll turn into 'Blitz mentality?' What happens when the welfare checks are delayed/food prices soar/no airplanes...

UK seems like it's all about whingeing for benefits and not sacrificing for the greater good. Generations of hands-out just wanting enough for drinks, smokes and soccer tickets.

First Up

judeboy101 wrote: »

Because the day after it crashes out, it will still be the UK, trading under wto rules just like loads of other countries do. No apocalypse, no rivers of blood, just average everyday boring Brits. Blitz mentality will kick in and they will do just fine.

If you think applying customs delays, paperwork and duties to 45% of your exports and 56% of your imports isn't going to make a difference you are indeed imbued with the spirit of the blitz. Congratulations.

lawred2

judeboy101 wrote: »

Because the day after it crashes out, it will still be the UK, trading under wto rules just like loads of other countries do. No apocalypse, no rivers of blood, just average everyday boring Brits. Blitz mentality will kick in and they will do just fine.

You know the blitz was a horror show right?

kunst nugget

lawred2 wrote: »

You know the blitz was a horror show right?

If it brings us back the likes of Arthur Atkinson and Fred Halibut & His Little Banjolele, it'll all be worth it.

J Mysterio

breatheme wrote: »

Or maybe if he had come out in favour of Remain, they could've won.

London voted to remain anyway. He didn't command much influence in places like the North, Wales and Midlands who voted to leave in high numbers.

Professor Moriarty

Comparisons with the Blitz mindset are pointless. British/English society has changed completely in the past 75 years. What was important then is unimportant now and vice versa.

ancapailldorcha

J Mysterio wrote: »

London voted to remain anyway. He didn't command much influence in places like the North, Wales and Midlands who voted to leave in high numbers.

Farage has said a few times that much of the UKIP vote came from disaffected Labour voters in Northern English towns. Johnson likely held more sway over metropolitan and rural conservatives in the Southeast.

Not surprising when you consider that 6 of the EU's 10 poorest regions by GDP are in the UK:

LeinsterDub

It's been nearly 24 hours since someone quit.

Two vice chairs of the Conservative Party, Maria Caulfield and Ben Bradley, are quitting their posts in protest at Theresa May's Chequers Brexit compromise plan.

Both have warned they will lose their seats unless the Tories deliver Brexit.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-44785797?ns_linkname=news_central&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_breaking&ns_source=twitter

Dymo

LeinsterDub wrote: »

It's been nearly 24 hours since someone quit.


https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-44785797?ns_linkname=news_central&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_breaking&ns_source=twitter

That's good to see, I like people who stick to their principles and the will of the people. If their constitutes want Brexit, give it to them.

I think Brexit is getting stronger day by day, it's becoming a rebellion of sorts.

ancapailldorcha

judeboy101 wrote: »

In fairness, we have all been at weekend office parties where we promise some fugly the moon and stars because all your friends were doing it too and then regreted it Monday when you see her with the beer goggles off.

This is a forum for serious discussion. Please do not post like this again here.

Rjd2

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Farage has said a few times that much of the UKIP vote came from disaffected Labour voters in Northern English towns. Johnson likely held more sway over metropolitan and rural conservatives in the Southeast.

Not surprising when you consider that 6 of the EU's 10 poorest regions by GDP are in the UK:

There shouldn't be a debate in whether arguably the most popular politician in the UK at the time converting to leave was not a game changer. He was the face of the leave campaign and fronted all the main tv debates for a reason.

Also as alluded to above, a lot of anger from leavers and she does seem to be provoking them. I wouldn't be a leaver and I understand why May is doing it, but its something that she needs to a bit more careful with.

https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1016680405095903232

https://twitter.com/oflynnmep/status/1016696576977391616

Akrasia

LeinsterDub wrote: »

It's been nearly 24 hours since someone quit.


https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-44785797?ns_linkname=news_central&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_breaking&ns_source=twitter

According to insiders, if it comes to a No confidence vote, the magic number is about 1/3 of MPs voting No Confidence for there to be a full scale heave against her.

Tories have 316 seats at the moment, so if Tory mps 106 vote no confidence, her position would be untenable. More than a 50% vote of no confidence in the House of Commons would force a re-election, but the conservatives could force a change of leadership without risking an election if they feel they have the numbers

WoollyRedHat

Theresa May would want to establish a Department of Resignations with the amount of Tories stepping down since her tenure and the last week alone. Although perhaps she is fearful that the minister who she appoints to this role might just resign as well. Better make it her then...,

Call me Al

judeboy101 wrote: »

In fairness, we have all been at weekend office parties where we promise some fugly the moon and stars because all your friends were doing it too and then regreted it Monday when you see her with the beer goggles off.

This "fugly" as you so gentlemanly call it, is the consequence of his actions.
He is purely self-serving with no thought for the consequences of his actions.

judeboy101

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Sure, no flights in or out of the country for an indefinate period of time will hardily be noticed.

I remember a time before cheap flights when only the rich could fly. People adapt.

Leroy42

judeboy101 wrote: »

Because the day after it crashes out, it will still be the UK, trading under wto rules just like loads of other countries do. No apocalypse, no rivers of blood, just average everyday boring Brits. Blitz mentality will kick in and they will do just fine.

judeboy101 wrote: »

I remember a time before cheap flights when only the rich could fly. People adapt.

True, but it is the job of every government to work towards making the lives of the citizens better, not drag them backwards.

There was a time before the internet and mobiles and electricity.

What happens when someones parents in Spain get sick. Just adapt I suppose? Or if people want a holiday, taking back control means removing their ability to travel abroad on a plane?

Calina

judeboy101 wrote: »

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Sure, no flights in or out of the country for an indefinate period of time will hardily be noticed.

I remember a time before cheap flights when only the rich could fly. People adapt.

grand if you are happy to adapt to life being worse rather than better.

Call me Al

judeboy101 wrote: »

I remember a time before cheap flights when only the rich could fly. People adapt.

So the UK is destined to go backwards, not forwards?
I'm sure they'll be delighted at the prospect of adapting to empty supermarket shelves and job losses..
But chin up and Dunkirk spirit aplenty.

Imreoir2

judeboy101 wrote: »

I remember a time before cheap flights when only the rich could fly. People adapt.

If it happens, they will adapt, by rioting.

McGiver

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-boris-johnson-lied-about-eu-safety-regulation-in-his-resignation-letter
BoJo even lied in his resignation letter. Pathetic.

Capt'n Midnight

judeboy101 wrote: »

So we have to be flexible now?

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2018/0710/977567-brexit-cabinet/

No,

Not unless they relax their red lines first.


This is noting new.
It's just taking a long time for Barnier's red-line infographic to sink in over there.
Imagine if they had to do a trade deal with a third party ?

Taoiseach Leo Varadkar has claimed that the European Union would be flexible in Brexit negotiations if the UK could relax from some of its red line issues in the wake of last Friday’s Chequers statement.

Beechwoodspark

Imreoir2 wrote: »

If it happens, they will adapt, by rioting.

It wouldn’t take long for society especially in poor parts of London and other urban centers to get very strained.

Major riots. Mindless violence. Vandalism. Arson. Looting on a grand scale. Breakdown of law and order. Huge xenophobic and Racial tensions possibly fanned by the likes of Farage or even more extreme far right groups. The vulnerable and weak will make suitable scapegoats.

Capt'n Midnight

Sam Russell wrote: »

I suppose the Blitz mentality will help with the lack of planes flying overhead.

Hundreds of thousands of German Civilians were slaughered during WWII by the Bomber Harris and others because of a complete disconnect. They could see how Londoners endured the Blitz and yet the same tatic would collapse* Germany ?

Brexit is a bit like that too, somehow the UK is special and Johnny Foreigner will cave in. :rolleyes:


* Peak German production was in 1944 around the time of the D-Day landings. Shortage of raw materials and fuel limited production after that.

LeinsterDub

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1016751492311732226

MP to May :"Your not my fwriend anymore"

I mean it would make a great sitcom but all the while the clock ticks on

BonnieSituation

I don't like May and think she's a most heinous human but that is a rather childish move on his part. Trying to pluck himself from obscurity it seems.

Trasna1

McGiver wrote: »

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-boris-johnson-lied-about-eu-safety-regulation-in-his-resignation-letter
BoJo even lied in his resignation letter. Pathetic.

I also thought it was fairly pathetic that he got a photographer in for a photo of him signing his resignation letter. What a self absorbed clown...

jimmycrackcorm

Professor Moriarty wrote:

Excellent article. Johnson toasted May's deal on Friday night and resigned because he couldn't stomach the deal on Monday. Shallow, elitist and incompetent ambition in a nutshell.

Surely a man of integrity and compunction would have simply disagreed on the day, stood his ground, resigned and called for an uber?

Strazdas

judeboy101 wrote: »

So we have to be flexible now?

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2018/0710/977567-brexit-cabinet/

I've a feeling Varadkar's comments (or the tone of what he was saying) were completely misinterpreted here. The implication was that he was suggesting that the EU needed to be much more flexible with the UK and perhaps even meet them halfway but I don't think he was getting at that at all. It's more like he was just talking in very general terms about flexibility from the EU.

Trasna1

Strazdas wrote: »

I've a feeling Varadkar's comments (or the tone of what he was saying) were completely misinterpreted here. The implication was that he was suggesting that the EU needed to be much more flexible with the UK and perhaps even meet them halfway but I don't think he was getting at that at all. It's more like he was just talking in very general terms about flexibility from the EU.

The tone from parts of the Irish media has been strange over the last week or two I have to say. It's almost as if they are trying to generate a softening of Irish opinion on Brexit in order to either force/let the government abandon in part it's core Brexit strategy wrt NI and trade. Coupled with the British PR push with two royal visits after one another and that the UK has been briefing in Europe against Varadkar and Coveney, this has the smell of coordination about it.

joeysoap

Anyone see this from Maria Caulfield’s letter of resignation.

For me the backstop agreement for Northern Ireland was neither necessary or constructive for the future prosperity of the UK. Having strong links to the Republic of Ireland I feel the backstop position is not appropriate and should have been rejected. It has been used by the EU as a way of blocking a mutually beneficial deal.

Odd from someone ‘having strong links’ to ROI.


Good reporting (IMO)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/america-should-support-theresa-mays-soft-brexit/2018/07/10/e2d399fc-8458-11e8-8553-a3ce89036c78_story.html??noredirect=on

flatty

BonnieSituation wrote: »

judeboy101 wrote: »

Isn't the church of England, technically, the national religion? The UK has freedom of religion but the CoE is the national religion, its peppered in all its law, heck, the head of state and the PM have to belong to it.

There's a whoosh right there.

---

@flatty, I'm surprised at your positive feedback re Hunt. His reputation from my pov isn't that great and that he's involved in the dismantling of the NHS as it stands through chronic underfunding.

Am I missing something?

I was out in a pub last night in Crystal Palace as the news came through of his appointment. Both of us exhaled exasperationally. So I'm defo missing something it seems.

Underfunding had nothing to do with hunt. He, rightly or wrongly, faced down the junior doctors, a stance which made him highly unpopular, and highly likely to be removed, but one he felt was right, and took nonetheless, and actually came to an uneasy compromise. He then offered his resignation if NHS funding wasn't increased, and it was (rightly or wrongly)
I have heard quite positive things from people who have met him. He certainly cared about his role, and was prepared to make a stand.

Dymo

Strazdas wrote: »

I've a feeling Varadkar's comments (or the tone of what he was saying) were completely misinterpreted here. The implication was that he was suggesting that the EU needed to be much more flexible with the UK and perhaps even meet them halfway but I don't think he was getting at that at all. It's more like he was just talking in very general terms about flexibility from the EU.

The way the BBC reported it on their news was, that the EU was ready now to relax their stance and come to an agreement with the UK (according to the Irish Prime minister)

Zubeneschamali

Imreoir2 wrote: »

If it happens, they will adapt, by rioting.

Short term yes, but long term, I think they will adapt by voting for someone that will undo this disastrous mistake.

But it'll take a few years for the full consequences to play out.

Akrasia

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Short term yes, but long term, I think they will adapt by voting for someone that will undo this disastrous mistake.

But it'll take a few years for the full consequences to play out.

Its nuts really. Is this the first time in history a country is going into trade negotiations looking to deliberately worsen their existing trade position with a vital trading partner?

If they win, they lose, if they lose, they definitely lose. The only way they benefit is if they think the EU is about to break up, and by jumping first they'll have a headstart on everyone else, and this is the rhetoric I've seen the likes of Farage hinting at recently.

kunst nugget

Akrasia wrote: »

Its nuts really. Is this the first time in history a country is going into trade negotiations looking to deliberately worsen their existing trade position with a vital trading partner?

If they win, they lose, if they lose, they definitely lose. The only way they benefit is if they think the EU is about to break up, and by jumping first they'll have a headstart on everyone else, and this is the rhetoric I've seen the likes of Farage hinting at recently.

And for the EU to capitulate to any of the UK's red lines would surely spell the beginning of the end for the union. Other countries would start bailing if they thought they could get a deal on trade of goods without having to allow free movement or any of the other four freedoms.

lawred2

kunst nugget wrote: »

And for the EU to capitulate to any of the UK's red lines would surely spell the beginning of the end for the union. Other countries would start bailing if they thought they could get a deal on trade of goods without having to allow free movement or any of the other four freedoms.

well if the UK has achieved anything it's to seemingly change the narrative that these four freedoms are actually not freedoms at all - but shackles imprisoning all these unfortunate EU member nations...

everyone now wants to break free from these freedoms...

bizarro world

Leroy42

And this is it in a nutshell. For all the talk of wanting a FTA, that our economies are so interlinked etc, the real issue that the EU faces is how to protect itself.

NI, 4 pillars etc, these are all just excuses (albeit very strong and correct ones). But in reality, whilst the EU can give leeway to countries looking to join, to be seen to give in to UK would be akin to agreeing that membership is not that important.

What is to stop the likes of Germany then deciding to push for ever greater things in their favour with the threat they could leave with no consequence? How could the other countries not give in to their demands?

And that is precisely the way the EU is not supposed to work. The whole point is that every country should see the benefits of being within the EU, rather than outside. Why would any country stay in once they reach the net contributor level, if they can get all the benefits, but without the costs, outside. The whole thing would fall apart.

So, sure, in isolation I am sure that each country in the EU would be more than happy to give a FTA deal et al, to the UK. But the EU has to consider that this isn't in isolation. This is very much part of the ploy by Russia,US, China etc to destablise the EU as it is one of the major players in the world. Breaking it up would only increase their relative power.

UK love going on about WWII (and IMO have every right to) but even they must surely see that it wasn't them alone that defeated Germany. It was countries coming together to help. Sure in that case it was the US, and of course Russia to the east, but in terms of the UK it was mainly the US, but the EU played that role for the last 40+ years in terms of trade.

Water John

Barnier also was positive saying, 80% had been agreed. Glass more than half full type of encouragement.
Both sides know further compromise is now necessary. Anyone in the UK who believes that Chequers deal is the end, is a fool and not a realist.
UK will end up staying in CU until technology is developed and proven.

Zubeneschamali

Water John wrote: »

UK will end up staying in CU until technology is developed and proven.

i.e. forever