Brexit discussion thread IV

Charles Babbage

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

I said long ago that the DUP would torpedo any deal that led to additional checks between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. This was blatantly always going to happen. We've known this since the last UK General Election.

There will have to be another UK General Election. That is the only way forward. I reckon it will lead to a no deal scenario and by default a hard-Brexit. No one really wants this, but it will happen. Politics in the UK has failed and by default we will see a hard-Brexit.

An election will only help if the two big parties have distinct policies on Brexit and if the candidates are actually going to follow their own manifesto.

prinzeugen

Infini wrote: »

Difference though is Sturgeon is at least representing the majority will of Scotland. The DUP are only interested in representing the narrow minded view of a MINORITY of NI and are only after their own self interests and have no interest in the national interest even if it triggers a UK breakup.

Sturgeon is not representing the majority though. Less than 50% of people voted SNP in the last Westminster and Scottish elections. Like the Conservative party in Westminster, the SNP is being propped up by another party in Edinburgh.

Britex was a UK wide referendum. The UK voted leave. The SNP bang on about "democracy" yet are ignoring the majority of people that voted for Scotland to remain in the UK and the majority in the UK that voted to leave the EU.

Hypocrites!

road_high

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

I said long ago that the DUP would torpedo any deal that led to additional checks between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. This was blatantly always going to happen. We've known this since the last UK General Election.

There will have to be another UK General Election. That is the only way forward. I reckon it will lead to a no deal scenario and by default a hard-Brexit. No one really wants this, but it will happen. Politics in the UK has failed and by default we will see a hard-Brexit.

Even if they torpedo a deal now what will it achieve? The alternatives are a Corbyn Labour (Gerry Adams bff) or the Tories not needing the DUP anymore- they were useful idiots for a year or two but once things get serious and England has to make real decisions (they’re not interested in spending billions on a folly Irish border...) then protecting the “mainland” GB border was always going to take priority and is the obvious cheaper, pragmatic option.

BonnieSituation

prinzeugen wrote: »

Sturgeon is not representing the majority though. Less than 50% of people voted SNP in the last Westminster and Scottish elections. Like the Conservative party in Westminster, the SNP is being propped up by another party in Edinburgh.

Britex was a UK wide referendum. The UK voted leave. The SNP bang on about "democracy" yet are ignoring the majority of people that voted for Scotland to remain in the UK and the majority in the UK that voted to leave the EU.

Hypocrites!

I had a big post refuting your nonsense... but I figured it would be easier for you you to have a look at the actual results for Holyrood 2016:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliament_election,_2016

That you would compare the SNP's results in that election to the Conservative's current state in Westminster shows you up really.

---

How are they ignoring the 2014 referendum result? Did I miss Sturgeon's UDI for Scotland?

BonnieSituation

More like it...

RTÉ now reporting of possible dual certification for NI goods:

Tony Connelly, RT&#201 wrote:

European Union officials are considering a dual certification system so that goods produced in Northern Ireland will be able to circulate freely in both the EU and UK markets, RTÉ News understands.

Another proposal is that goods moving from Britain to Northern Ireland could be checked at Dublin Port for EU customs and regulatory compliance before continuing on northwards, as a way of limiting checks and controls at British ports.

Both ideas are among a range of possibilities that the EU Task Force are considering as part of the ongoing effort to "de-dramatise" the backstop.

If the Irish backstop to avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland comes into effect, then customs and regulatory checks would have to be carried out on goods moving from Britain to Northern Ireland, because those goods would then be able to circulate freely throughout the EU’s single market, due to the lack of land border.

Sources close to the negotiations have confirmed that Task Force officials have been exploring such ideas as they redraft the Irish Protocol within the Withdrawal Agreement.

Under a dual certification scheme, goods produced in Northern Ireland would be deemed compliant with both EU and UK standards, so that they could move freely through the island of Ireland and beyond to the Single Market, and throughout the UK... (CONT'D AT LINK)

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2018/1010/1002349-brexit-border/

lawred2

prinzeugen wrote: »

Same could be said about Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP. Leader of a regional assembly and she thinks she should be treated like a world leader.

The SNP think they are relevant outside Scotland. They are not.

What's the relevance?

Peregrinus

prinzeugen wrote: »

Same could be said about Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP. Leader of a regional assembly and she thinks she should be treated like a world leader.

The SNP think they are relevant outside Scotland. They are not.

They have 35 seats at Westminster. They are.

seamus

Completely predictable but still jaw-dropping to see the DUP's resistance over the latest proposal. NI gets the best Brexit deal - Between the EU, UK & NI, NI actually gets the best deal of all 3, arguably a position even better than they have right now.

And the DUP would resist on the basis of some conceptual borders - the sea/air border already exists with the UK, in this new proposal it would basically be in their heads. And they're willing to sacrifice economic prosperity for this.

As I've said before, this is the perfect opportunity for SF to take their Westminster seats once, and for the good of NI, and put the first nails in the DUP's coffin. By they're also too blinded by ethereal concepts to do it.

Peregrinus

seamus wrote: »

As I've said before, this is the perfect opportunity for SF to take their Westminster seats once, and for the good of NI, and put the first nails in the DUP's coffin. By they're also too blinded by ethereal concepts to do it.

Sinn Fein's object has never been to put the first, or the final, nails in the DUP's coffin. It has always been to secure the political independence of Ireland.

Rightly or wrongly, they see participation in British institutions which govern in Ireland as an acceptance or endorsement of the role of those institutions, and they have never been willing to do that. This has been their consistent policy since 1908. Indeed, it's the very policy which they were founded to implement. Lots of other aspects of Sinn Fein's platform have changed over the years but this, never.

I'm not saying that this is a good thing; just that it's a consistent, coherent and deeply-entrenched thing. They're not going to abandon it because current but temporary circumstances offer short-term political opportunities to frustrate the Tories or the DUP.

road_high

seamus wrote: »

Completely predictable but still jaw-dropping to see the DUP's resistance over the latest proposal. NI gets the best Brexit deal - Between the EU, UK & NI, NI actually gets the best deal of all 3, arguably a position even better than they have right now.

And the DUP would resist on the basis of some conceptual borders - the sea/air border already exists with the UK, in this new proposal it would basically be in their heads. And they're willing to sacrifice economic prosperity for this.

As I've said before, this is the perfect opportunity for SF to take their Westminster seats once, and for the good of NI, and put the first nails in the DUP's coffin. By they're also too blinded by ethereal concepts to do it.

Unless they are the exact same (in their heads) as Kent or Cumbria then they will go nuts regardless of what is proposed. That's the level of mind numbing stupidity and childishness they bring. I can sense the UK govt are weary of it by now.

Leroy42

It is not really jaw-dropping though. Would don't want a border in NI because of the problems that would cause, they don't look at Dublin they look to London. They see this as a direct attack on their union with the EU, being driven by a foreign force and gleefully egged on by Dublin.

They are putting principles ahead of economics, it is no different that any other Brexiteer in that respect.

In really don't see what choice they have, it is clear that the UK don't care about them. They are doing everything they can to try to stay relevant as the ground shifts beneath their feet.

FrancieBrady

The logic of partition (of Ireland specifically) has brought the DUP and 'unionism' in general to this impasse.

Partition was illogical here and would always be. Any upset to the concept of the UK was always going to cause something like this. Scottish independence also pushes unionists up against the wall.

Seth Brundle

Peregrinus wrote: »

Rightly or wrongly, they see participation in British institutions which govern in Ireland as an acceptance or endorsement of the role of those institutions, and they have never been willing to do that. This has been their consistent policy since 1908. Indeed, it's the very policy which they were founded to implement. Lots of other aspects of Sinn Fein's platform have changed over the years but this, never.

They don't want to participate in British politicss yet are happy to stand in British elections and take the British MPs salary and expenses!
Talk about having your cake and eating it.

One could also say that they don't want to be in government in the UK. They want the benefits without the responsibilities of office.
Same as in NI.
And in the RoI.

BonnieSituation

seamus wrote: »

Completely predictable but still jaw-dropping to see the DUP's resistance over the latest proposal. NI gets the best Brexit deal - Between the EU, UK & NI, NI actually gets the best deal of all 3, arguably a position even better than they have right now.

And the DUP would resist on the basis of some conceptual borders - the sea/air border already exists with the UK, in this new proposal it would basically be in their heads. And they're willing to sacrifice economic prosperity for this.

As I've said before, this is the perfect opportunity for SF to take their Westminster seats once, and for the good of NI, and put the first nails in the DUP's coffin. By they're also too blinded by ethereal concepts to do it.

Yes. It's SFs fault.

Please for the umpteenth time explain to me what SFs votes will do?

Other than destroy the very fabric of the party?

The Irish Govt are doing sterling work keeping NI at the top of the agenda. Why would SF start to interfere?

The nails are slowly being driven into the DUP coffin. Let them continue to use the hammer.

SF getting involved in the process at any point and for any reason will only galvanise unionism.

lawred2

Seth Brundle wrote: »

They don't want to participate in British politicss yet are happy to stand in British elections and take the British MPs salary and expenses!
Talk about having your cake and eating it.

One could also say that they don't want to be in government in the UK. They want the benefits without the responsibilities of office.
Same as in NI.
And in the RoI.

What do you mean? They've been in power sharing in the North for nearly two decades (last while apart).

They put forward candidates for local elections and have many elected councillors across Northern Ireland.

Is that not partaking in British politics?

Peregrinus

Seth Brundle wrote: »

They don't want to participate in British politicss yet are happy to stand in British elections and take the British MPs salary and expenses!
Talk about having your cake and eating it.

One could also say that they don't want to be in government in the UK. They want the benefits without the responsibilities of office.

One could say that, but it wouldn't be fair or accurate. The primary benefit of being in office is power - the ability to control and direct the discharge of public business. This, and not the mobile phone allowance or whatever, is what motivates most politicians to take on what is generally a pretty thankless role. And SF renounces that benefit through their abstentionist policy.

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Same as in NI.
And in the RoI.

How is it they same? The do take up their seats in both NI and the RoI.

prawnsambo

We all knew it was a bribe. But just in case you were in any doubt...

BonnieSituation

Seth Brundle wrote: »

They don't want to participate in British politicss yet are happy to stand in British elections and take the British MPs salary and expenses!
Talk about having your cake and eating it.

One could also say that they don't want to be in government in the UK. They want the benefits without the responsibilities of office.
Same as in NI.
And in the RoI.

Hmmmm... I'm sorry? When did SF get an opportunity to participate in Government in the South? I missed that.

And, blaming then for the lack of the Stormont assembly is beyond fanciful.

Taking a principled stand against the DUP yet again going against agreements that were previously made is something to barrack them about?

Also the principled stance of not participating in parliament in Britain like they have since their foundation is also something to berate them about?

How about you aim your ire correctly at the people and parties who caused all this nonsense, namely, the Tories, Labour for allowing it to continue as it is, and the DUP for being the bigoted shower that they are.

---
It reads like you want to preclude them from participating in represent politics in the UK, a bit discriminatory that. James Craig would be proud.

BonnieSituation

prawnsambo wrote: »

We all knew it was a bribe. But just in case you were in any doubt...

They will have to pay it back?

Did it go direct to the DUP?

---

How is anyone surprised that voting against a budget (supply) would bring down a "confidence and supply" agreement?
I was reading reports yesterday that a budget failure apparently doesn't necessarily indicate a loss of confidence in the government. (Apparently it's in the Fixed Term Parliament Act)

Has it really gotten so bad that the bastion of parliamentary of democracy that Britain is, has forgotten the basics?

lawred2

prawnsambo wrote: »

We all knew it was a bribe. But just in case you were in any doubt...

lol

How does that work then?

Did this money go to Arlene herself?

These people have lost their minds

jm08

Seth Brundle wrote: »

They don't want to participate in British politicss yet are happy to stand in British elections and take the British MPs salary and expenses!
Talk about having your cake and eating it.

One could also say that they don't want to be in government in the UK. They want the benefits without the responsibilities of office.
Same as in NI.
And in the RoI.

Sinn Fein MPs don't take a salary.

A Dub in Glasgo

prinzeugen wrote: »

Sturgeon is not representing the majority though. Less than 50% of people voted SNP in the last Westminster and Scottish elections. Like the Conservative party in Westminster, the SNP is being propped up by another party in Edinburgh.

Britex was a UK wide referendum. The UK voted leave. The SNP bang on about "democracy" yet are ignoring the majority of people that voted for Scotland to remain in the UK and the majority in the UK that voted to leave the EU.

Hypocrites!

This has been refuted numerous times but still you persist in your crusade

Westminster is FPTP where you can rule with a massive majority on 38%-40% of the vote

Holyrood is as form of PR which was deliberately designed to prevent one party ruling with a majority

Sturgeon is competently representing the majority of people in Scotland with regards to Brexit. It is unfortunate for the people of Scotland that their view can be swept to one side by a Tory party which did not even get a majority in a FPTP election!

fergiesfolly

BonnieSituation wrote: »

More like it...

RTÉ now reporting of possible dual certification for NI goods:



https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2018/1010/1002349-brexit-border/

Another proposal is that goods moving from Britain to Northern Ireland could be checked at Dublin Port for EU customs and regulatory compliance before continuing on northwards, as a way of limiting checks and controls at British ports.

Just referencing that line from the post
Are they saying that all British good traveling to NI would have to come through Dublin port?
How would that be acceptable to anyone in the North?

Leroy42

And lets us not forget that TM invited the DUP into the tent, gave them the power they now have, and they must have been told, and certainly it has been TM's stated position thus far, that she would never give on the on position of NI within the Union.

They had the warning in December, but a quick phonecall from Foster seemed to sort that wobble out. Is it so outrageous for the DUP to think that 2 years into supporting this government (remember without the DUP TM may not even be the PM) they felt they had a supported position.

TL;DR, basically whilst the DUP can take some of the blame, their position has been very clear from the start and thus the blame lies solely with TM accepting their support to get her into power and then doing nothing it seems over the last two years to prepare them for the climbdown.

A Dub in Glasgo

People should not be naive to think that the minute SF steps into Westminster to participate in parliamentary votes, that all the other MPs will vote the same way they would have if SF were not there. There is more liklihood of plenty more MPs voting against anything SF vote for than the number of votes SF bring to the table. With this in mind it is a total irrelevance to include SF in any calculation

swampgas

fergiesfolly wrote: »

Another proposal is that goods moving from Britain to Northern Ireland could be checked at Dublin Port for EU customs and regulatory compliance before continuing on northwards, as a way of limiting checks and controls at British ports.

Just referencing that line from the post
Are they saying that all British good traveling to NI would have to come through Dublin port?
How would that be acceptable to anyone in the North?

It's actually quite a clever solution.

Something's got to give. Everything can't stay the same as it is today, major changes are inevitable if the conflict between Brexit and the GFA is to be resolved.

Working class heroes

Don't normally watch it my self but there are a couple of guests on tomorrow evening's The Late Late Show that might interest a few around here. Alastair Campbell and Nigel Farage.

https://www.independent.ie/entertainment/television/tv-news/nigel-farage-to-face-off-with-alastair-campbell-in-late-late-show-london-special-brexit-debate-37407630.html

PopePalpatine

lawred2 wrote: »

lol

How does that work then?

Did this money go to Arlene herself?

These people have lost their minds

Nah, they spent that money on heating bills for barns.

VinLieger

Working class heroes wrote: »

Don't normally watch it my self but there are a couple of guests on tomorrow evening's The Late Late Show that might interest a few around here. Alastair Campbell and Nigel Farage.

https://www.independent.ie/entertainment/television/tv-news/nigel-farage-to-face-off-with-alastair-campbell-in-late-late-show-london-special-brexit-debate-37407630.html

Tubs is going to make fool of himself interviewing both of them. As detestable as they both are they will run rings around him.

Sam Russell

fergiesfolly wrote: »

Another proposal is that goods moving from Britain to Northern Ireland could be checked at Dublin Port for EU customs and regulatory compliance before continuing on northwards, as a way of limiting checks and controls at British ports.

Just referencing that line from the post
Are they saying that all British good traveling to NI would have to come through Dublin port?
How would that be acceptable to anyone in the North?

According to the RTE report, 60% of such goods already transit through Dublin.

Current situation.

1. People travelling from NI to GB are already checked by the ferries and airlines, and anyway people are controlled through employers, landlords, etc.

2. Trade in goods from NI to GB can be ignored as it is up to the UK Gov how that is treated. Could goods be shipped from Ireland through Belfast into the UK and sneak in?

3. 60% of trade in goods going GB to NI transits through Dublin. Could this be increased if it is cheaper or easier?

4. All trade in agriculture and such products is checked at a rate of 10% inspection. This is proposed to increase to 100%.

5. EU has proposed that goods travelling from UK could use the system used between Canary Islands and Spain, where goods are checked on ferries.

So overall, not much to get excited about.