Brexit discussion thread IV

BonnieSituation · 12-10-2018 8:32am

P_1 wrote: »

Is that inherently a bad thing? Sooner NI has cooler heads in power and drops the bollox over the interpretation of a bronze age text from their politics the better.

Theres a theory that the SF/DUP duopoly is only maintained because any right thinking person in NI gets the fook out of dodge as soon as the opportunity presents itself

But that bollox as you so eloquently put it, is all over the side of the DUP.

The endless comparison that they're "as bad as each other" really does wear thin when you see the petulance of the DUP the last week (or month or year or decade...).

The duopoly as you put it is maintained for a variety of reasons. Too numerous to go into now.

Stormont isn't up and running because (though not solely) of discrimination over the Irish Language Act as agreed previously -lets not forget Paul Givan's disgraceful decision re Líofa Scheme (https://www.irishnews.com/news/2017/04/27/news/dup-minister-paul-givan-told-of-irish-language-scheme-advantages-before-he-axed-it-1008840/)- really added fuel (wood pellets I would wager) to the fire in the administration in the North.

This all came during the insane tensions that had arisen because of the criminal implementation of the RHI scheme which was rumbling and brought it down in the end.

All because of DUP thick headedness and their bizarre superiority complex.

You have had endless racist and sectarian comments from Campbell's yogurt in 2014 to Arlene (First Minister at the time) Foster to likening equality for nationalists and SF to being "like crocodiles always coming back for more".

And not does it go on and on.

In all that time you have had a gob****e of a SF MP making his Kingsmill jibe and he was rightly censured almost straightaways for it.

They're not comparable on any scale.

---

The end game for SF and their supporters is a UI. If that comes about because of brexit then so be it. Why the hell would they interfere now while Unionism is hell-bent on handing it to them in such a way that the benefits start to become clear to small-u Unionists and small-n Nationalists who up until now we're content with the status quo.

FrancieBrady · 12-10-2018 8:34am

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I thought the IRA got a foothold when the British army went about shooting innocent people on the streets of Derry?
The British are delivering unity not FG and certainly not SF. Yet a other page from the SF can do no wrong book

Your grasp of history and the present is one dimensional.

Have a look at how strong the IRA were when Unionists supported by the British were suppressing the people of Derry.
If SF didn't exist and nationalists were represented by supplicants like the SDLP there would be no issue at all with Brexit. Currently northern Ireland would be doing like it was told. And Irish Taoiseach's would be taking phonecalls in the subservient manner that Jack Lynch was back at the start of the troubles.

As I say, do some research.

prawnsambo · 12-10-2018 8:38am

Sinn Fein (and I'm no supporter) would be absolutely mad to get involved at this stage. This is going to be a clusterf*ck of epic proportions and no-one involved will come out unscathed.

Strazdas · 12-10-2018 8:42am

Peregrinus wrote: »

This tweet from Tony Connelly confirms that the UK-wide customs arrangement is under discussion, and suggests that the point of difference between the two sides is whether it should be time-limited (as the UK wants) or indefinite (as the EU wants), rather than whether there should be a UK-wide customs deal at all.

The whole thread is worth your time.

The obvious problem here is that even "a" customs union would represent a crushing defeat for the Brexit movement. This is something the loons have been railing against for the last year. It would be hard to disguise from anyone that Brexit had gone pear shaped and is leaving the country worse off economically than pre-referendum.

FrancieBrady · 12-10-2018 8:47am

prawnsambo wrote: »

Sinn Fein (and I'm no supporter) would be absolutely mad to get involved at this stage. This is going to be a clusterf*ck of epic proportions and no-one involved will come out unscathed.

They are not calling for SF to get involved out of concern for Irish people living in the north, they are calling for SF to save their bacon because Irish people in the south are going to suffer.

prawnsambo · 12-10-2018 9:05am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They are not calling for SF to get involved out of concern for Irish people living in the north, they are calling for SF to save their bacon because Irish people in the south are going to suffer.

Ah, I don't think you can ascribe a specific motive to this. People (myself included) do not want to see a hard border re-imposed. I had plenty of experiences of what that entailed and that's not something anyone with even a modicum of knowledge would want.

And this is still possible. There's a very delicate balance and a hard brexit would be a devastating blow to peace.

Zubeneschamali · 12-10-2018 9:09am

Peregrinus wrote: »

If there's no deal the possible consequences are diverse, but they are all pretty horrendous and May will want to be able to blame someone else for it. Therefore she will in the end accept a deal that she can't get through the party or through Parliament rather than reject that deal because she knows she can't get it through the party or through Parliament.

Agreed - and while it is high stakes, she is up against Boris and Rees-Mogg, both of whom seem to prefer sniping from the backbenches to taking the lead. Torpedoing May's deal would surely mean having to take the reins, and lead Britain into the worst disaster since WWII on purpose.

I think the Brexiteers will allow May to have her deal.

Now the DUP, on the other hand...

Calina · 12-10-2018 9:11am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They are not calling for SF to get involved out of concern for Irish people living in the north, they are calling for SF to save their bacon because Irish people in the south are going to suffer.

If you want unification at some point in the future, this attitude is going to have to change. I owe you nothing. Comments like this suggest nationalists in the north despise the population in the south. Why should we unite with people for whom we can never do enough, see your comments about the GFA pages back.

People in both the North and the Republic are going to suffer. Sinn Féin is afaik the only all island party. It could be argued that yes, they have an interest in acting in a way that benefits the island as a whole. Could they contribute by taking up their seats in Westminster? Maybe, maybe not. But their policy of abstention is dumb and has always been dumb. If they truly believed that Westminster should not be recognised, then perhaps they should never have stood for election to it and abstained from the institution on principle and completely.

But the funny thing is, UKIP did not abstain from European elections and they did take up their seats. Arguably they achieved by not following a policy of abstention something which Sinn Fein has failed to achieve.

Either the people in the north and the people in the south are one people or they are not. If you truly see them as one, then stop criticising the south. The more you do it, the more the south doesnt see you as one with us. In the meantime, the Dublin government can do x amount, the Belfast government is indefinitely not sitting and even if the impact of the numbers might be limited, diverse opinioins could have had an impact in Westminster. God knows Westminster desperately needs diverse voices.

But oh no, it is only an issue cos the south will be impacted. Maybe you might want to remember that we are having this debate because the south is also trying to mitigate the impact of Brexit on the island as a whole and the one all island party is abstaining its responsibilities in the north as a matter of principle. I would argue that in this respect the EU and the Irish government are doing more for people in the north. But the interests of the people in the south matter too and yes, if people want to criticise SF here they have the absolute right to do so when the policy they are criticising does not just hurt people in the south but also robs people in the north of support and representation in a time of major political and economic crisis.

BonnieSituation · 12-10-2018 9:21am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Your grasp of history and the present is one dimensional.

Have a look at how strong the IRA were when Unionists supported by the British were suppressing the people of Derry.
If SF didn't exist and nationalists were represented by supplicants like the SDLP there would be no issue at all with Brexit. Currently northern Ireland would be doing like it was told. And Irish Taoiseach's would be taking phonecalls in the subservient manner that Jack Lynch was back at the start of the troubles.

As I say, do some research.

I will not stand idly by... While I stand idly by...

FrancieBrady · 12-10-2018 9:22am

Calina wrote: »

If you want unification at some point in the future, this attitude is going to have to change. I owe you nothing. Comments like this suggest nationalists in the north despise the population in the south. Why should we unite with people for whom we can never do enough, see your comments about the GFA pages back.

People in both the North and the Republic are going to suffer. Sinn Féin is afaik the only all island party. It could be argued that yes, they have an interest in acting in a way that benefits the island as a whole. Could they contribute by taking up their seats in Westminster? Maybe, maybe not. But their policy of abstention is dumb and has always been dumb. If they truly believed that Westminster should not be recognised, then perhaps they should never have stood for election to it and abstained from the institution on principle and completely.

But the funny thing is, UKIP did not abstain from European elections and they did take up their seats. Arguably they achieved by not following a policy of abstention something which Sinn Fein has failed to achieve.

Either the people in the north and the people on the north are one people or they are not. If you truly see them as one, then stop criticising the south. The more you do it, the more the south doesnt see you as one with us. In the meantime, the Dublin government can do x amount, the Belfast government is indefinitely not sitting and even if the impact of the numbers might be limited, diverse opinioins could have had an impact in Westminster. God knows Westminster desperately needs diverse voices.

But oh no, it is only an issue cos the south will be impacted. Maybe you might want to remember that we are having this debate because the south is also trying to mitigate the impact of Brexit on the island as a whole and the one all island party is abstaining its responsibilities in the north as a matter of principle. I would argue that in this respect the EU and the Irish government are doing more for people in the north. But the interests of the people in the south matter too and yes, if people want to criticise SF here they have the absolute right to do so when the policy they are criticising does not just hurt people in the south but also robs people in the north of support and representation in a time of major political and economic crisis.

Fully agree with most of that.
I was referring to 'some' southern people, not them all. The type of southerner who hasn't taken the time to research what actually happened on this island. The type of southener who perpetually blames it all on a single player in the events of history. The type of southener who accepts no responsibility for what happened.
Regardless of yours or other people's opinion there is a field of thought that sees SF leaving the field to the Irish government on Brexit as an astute move and a sensible one. It isn't that hard to imagine how it would now be played out if SF were the principal Irish objectors to Brexit.
They stood aside and forced/allowed (whatever you wish to see) the Irish government to take the lead. That is good for all of us.

LeinsterDub · 12-10-2018 9:22am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Your grasp of history and the present is one dimensional.

Have a look at how strong the IRA were when Unionists supported by the British were suppressing the people of Derry.
If SF didn't exist and nationalists were represented by supplicants like the SDLP there would be no issue at all with Brexit. Currently northern Ireland would be doing like it was told. And Irish Taoiseach's would be taking phonecalls in the subservient manner that Jack Lynch was back at the start of the troubles.

As I say, do some research.

What has SF got to do with your original point? I don't disagree with this post well apart from the first and last lines. But this has literally nothing to do with your last post.

BonnieSituation · 12-10-2018 9:23am

Calina wrote: »

If you want unification at some point in the future, this attitude is going to have to change. I owe you nothing. Comments like this suggest nationalists in the north despise the population in the south. Why should we unite with people for whom we can never do enough, see your comments about the GFA pages back.

People in both the North and the Republic are going to suffer. Sinn Féin is afaik the only all island party. It could be argued that yes, they have an interest in acting in a way that benefits the island as a whole. Could they contribute by taking up their seats in Westminster? Maybe, maybe not. But their policy of abstention is dumb and has always been dumb. If they truly believed that Westminster should not be recognised, then perhaps they should never have stood for election to it and abstained from the institution on principle and completely.

But the funny thing is, UKIP did not abstain from European elections and they did take up their seats. Arguably they achieved by not following a policy of abstention something which Sinn Fein has failed to achieve.

Either the people in the north and the people in the south are one people or they are not. If you truly see them as one, then stop criticising the south. The more you do it, the more the south doesnt see you as one with us. In the meantime, the Dublin government can do x amount, the Belfast government is indefinitely not sitting and even if the impact of the numbers might be limited, diverse opinioins could have had an impact in Westminster. God knows Westminster desperately needs diverse voices.

But oh no, it is only an issue cos the south will be impacted. Maybe you might want to remember that we are having this debate because the south is also trying to mitigate the impact of Brexit on the island as a whole and the one all island party is abstaining its responsibilities in the north as a matter of principle. I would argue that in this respect the EU and the Irish government are doing more for people in the north. But the interests of the people in the south matter too and yes, if people want to criticise SF here they have the absolute right to do so when the policy they are criticising does not just hurt people in the south but also robs people in the north of support and representation in a time of major political and economic crisis.

Given that good oul Francie is a Monaghan man...

FrancieBrady · 12-10-2018 9:26am

LeinsterDub wrote: »

What has SF got to do with your original point? I don't disagree with this post well apart from the first and last lines. But this has literally nothing to do with your last post.

I was replying to your self serving, inventive post.

lawred2 · 12-10-2018 9:30am

Calina wrote: »

If you want unification at some point in the future, this attitude is going to have to change. I owe you nothing. Comments like this suggest nationalists in the north despise the population in the south. Why should we unite with people for whom we can never do enough, see your comments about the GFA pages back.

People in both the North and the Republic are going to suffer. Sinn Féin is afaik the only all island party. It could be argued that yes, they have an interest in acting in a way that benefits the island as a whole. Could they contribute by taking up their seats in Westminster? Maybe, maybe not. But their policy of abstention is dumb and has always been dumb. If they truly believed that Westminster should not be recognised, then perhaps they should never have stood for election to it and abstained from the institution on principle and completely.

But the funny thing is, UKIP did not abstain from European elections and they did take up their seats. Arguably they achieved by not following a policy of abstention something which Sinn Fein has failed to achieve.

Either the people in the north and the people in the south are one people or they are not. If you truly see them as one, then stop criticising the south. The more you do it, the more the south doesnt see you as one with us. In the meantime, the Dublin government can do x amount, the Belfast government is indefinitely not sitting and even if the impact of the numbers might be limited, diverse opinioins could have had an impact in Westminster. God knows Westminster desperately needs diverse voices.

But oh no, it is only an issue cos the south will be impacted. Maybe you might want to remember that we are having this debate because the south is also trying to mitigate the impact of Brexit on the island as a whole and the one all island party is abstaining its responsibilities in the north as a matter of principle. I would argue that in this respect the EU and the Irish government are doing more for people in the north. But the interests of the people in the south matter too and yes, if people want to criticise SF here they have the absolute right to do so when the policy they are criticising does not just hurt people in the south but also robs people in the north of support and representation in a time of major political and economic crisis.

Actually that would be more dumb as that would end up handing even more seats to unionists in Westminster.

However there may come a time where they start taking seats in Westminster. But they would have to go to the ballot telling those that vote for them in advance of a GE that the plan is to take up seats in Westminster if elected.

You seriously can't expect SF after how many years of abstentionism to change tack without actually getting tacit or explicit approval from those they represent to do so?

prawnsambo · 12-10-2018 9:31am

It looks to me that May will have to soft soap the DUP until after the budget. Which means that no deal will come out of next weeks EUCO meeting. Can kicked down the road at least until after the budget and then the DUP will be cut adrift. Which will then precipitate an election unless in the very unlikely event of Labour MPs rowing in behind May.

VinLieger · 12-10-2018 9:37am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The type of southener who accepts no responsibility for what happened.

I was born in 1986, so didnt get to vote until 2004 so please tell me what responsibility for the f*cking mess in NI that I should be accepting please? Nobody born after 1980 even had a vote in the GFA referendum, what responsibility for the situation should they be accepting?

FrancieBrady · 12-10-2018 9:43am

VinLieger wrote: »

I was born in 1986, so didnt get to vote until 2004 so please tell me what responsibility for the f*cking mess in NI that I should be accepting please? Nobody born after 1980 even had a vote in the GFA referendum, what responsibility for the situation should they be accepting?

You thought I was talking about 'personal' responsibility????? Dear me. I won't drag the thread further off topic answering that one, if you don't mind.

:rolleyes:

FrancieBrady · 12-10-2018 9:44am

prawnsambo wrote: »

It looks to me that May will have to soft soap the DUP until after the budget. Which means that no deal will come out of next weeks EUCO meeting. Can kicked down the road at least until after the budget and then the DUP will be cut adrift. Which will then precipitate an election unless in the very unlikely event of Labour MPs rowing in behind May.

It's either that or she has found a way around them. Or she has decided to drive headlong for the cliff and see what happens. She doesn't really have much choice at this juncture

VinLieger · 12-10-2018 9:46am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You thought I was talking about 'personal' responsibility????? Dear me. I won't drag the thread further off topic answering that one, if you don't mind. :rolleyes:

No I didnt think you meant personal responsibility, i know what you meant but please explain to me how i should be accepting responsibility as an ROI citizen born post 1980 and for what exactly? you made the statement, now back it up.

Its also not off topic as seemingly according to you it directly relates to NI's current position RE brexit.

FrancieBrady · 12-10-2018 9:55am

VinLieger wrote: »

No I didnt think you meant personal responsibility, i know what you meant but please explain to me how i should be accepting responsibility as an ROI citizen born post 1980 and for what exactly? you made the statement, now back it up.

Its also not off topic as seemingly according to you it directly relates to NI's current position RE brexit.

If you voted for the GFA you signed up to taking responsibility. The GFA includes in it's title the word 'Agreement', it was an agreement to end the conflict in Ireland and it accepted that all sides in the conflict had duties and responsibilities that had heretofore not been lived up to. One of those committments was the Irish government on behalf of us all in the south, accepting responsibility for the interests of those who identify as Irish, something it hadn't been doing adequately, up to then.

If you wish to argue that, then you will have to open a thread for it I think. I am not going further off topic on this great thread.

prawnsambo · 12-10-2018 10:09am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If you voted for the GFA you signed up to taking responsibility. The GFA includes in it's title the word 'Agreement', it was an agreement to end the conflict in Ireland and it accepted that all sides in the conflict had duties and responsibilities that had heretofore not been lived up to. One of those committments was the Irish government on behalf of us all in the south, accepting responsibility for the interests of those who identify as Irish, something it hadn't been doing adequately, up to then.

If you wish to argue that, then you will have to open a thread for it I think. I am not going further off topic on this great thread.

He just said he wasn't old enough to vote for the GFA.

trellheim · 12-10-2018 10:11am

But the funny thing is, UKIP did not abstain from European elections and they did take up their seats

UKIP voting and attendance in the EP is a matter of some ridicule

OTOH

Tom Newton Dunn retweets

Good news PM will accept an indefinite customs union with EU. Will provide necessary stability over the 5-10 years it will take to get a functioning trade agreement #commonsense

1:13 AM - 12 Oct 2018

Bet you that will be bs'd out of existence

FrancieBrady · 12-10-2018 10:14am

prawnsambo wrote: »

He just said he wasn't old enough to vote for the GFA.

Well if he doesn't accept it, join those who are against it or who want to discard it.
Plenty of things I wasn't born for that I accept as my responsibility to uphold.
If I don't, I work for and vote for change, like same sex marraige legislation or other constitutional reforms.
Pretty simple really.

LeinsterDub · 12-10-2018 10:22am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I was replying to your self serving, inventive post.

Ad hominem, well that's that argument won so.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You thought I was talking about 'personal' responsibility????? Dear me. I won't drag the thread further off topic answering that one, if you don't mind. :rolleyes:

Shall I set up a other thread for you to ignore?

You constantly imply SF are the universally right, that the southerner and the Irish government are wrong, when it get pointed out to you it mightn't be this simple you say owe this is off topic , stop replying and then 5 pages later start up the same discussion.

FrancieBrady · 12-10-2018 10:40am

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Ad hominem, well that's that argument won so.

Shall I set up a other thread for you to ignore?

You constantly imply SF are the universally right, that the southerner and the Irish government are wrong, when it get pointed out to you it mightn't be this simple you say owe this is off topic , stop replying and then 5 pages later start up the same discussion.

Simply wrong. There are so many things that SF do that I do not defend or advocate on here.
They are not universally right. No party is.

Your other thread does not interest me so far. I do contribute to many other threads on all kinds of things. Stop trying to paint a picture of me that serves your agrument, as much as it is an argument and not a personal attack.

Winters · 12-10-2018 10:40am

https://news.sky.com/story/larne-the-northern-ireland-port-town-thats-brexit-in-a-microcosm-11524037

Super article by Faisal Islam about Larne and the Backstop. Interesting tidbits from Sammy Wilson.

Leroy42 · 12-10-2018 10:44am

Seriously guys, Brexit is and continues to be a Tory led clusterfu3k. Could other parties have done more, probably, but that would not have fundamentally changed the fact that the Tories have been split on this for years, are split now, and TM is a terrible leader that has avoided dealing with reality

Blaming the EU, DUP, SF, ROI, SNP etc is all just a distraction. The Tories, and by extension UKIP which played the Tories, take 100% of the blame and regardless of what others may/may not have done, we can see from their actions over the last number of years that they would have found some way to blame it or mess it up.

You can't blame the DUP for doing exactly what everyone knew they would do. You can't blame SF for not taking their seats as anything to do with BRexit outcome.

The fact is that nearly all the actors in this sorry saga have played their roles as everyone would have expected them to prior to the start. The only stand out is the Tory party which have been naive, lying, cowardly, indecisive, unprepared, shown a staggering lack of control and foresight and been nothing more than a omnishambles.

trellheim · 12-10-2018 10:49am

Same old crap from the tories since Maastricht . I recently finished John Major's bio and there is just so much in common.

The ERG etc view it religiously; there is no benefit to being out but that does not matter; sovereignty outwith the EU is all that matters. From that narrow point of view I see it from the Ireland point of view, but the EU is in no way the same as Ireland was in 1916 , Juncker is not going to send a gunboat up the thames.

FrancieBrady · 12-10-2018 10:50am

Leroy42 wrote: »

Seriously guys, Brexit is and continues to be a Tory led clusterfu3k. Could other parties have done more, probably, but that would not have fundamentally changed the fact that the Tories have been split on this for years, are split now, and TM is a terrible leader that has avoided dealing with reality

Blaming the EU, DUP, SF, ROI, SNP etc is all just a distraction. The Tories, and by extension UKIP which played the Tories, take 100% of the blame and regardless of what others may/may not have done, we can see from their actions over the last number of years that they would have found some way to blame it or mess it up.

You can't blame the DUP for doing exactly what everyone knew they would do. You can't blame SF for not taking their seats as anything to do with BRexit outcome.

The fact is that nearly all the actors in this sorry saga have played their roles as everyone would have expected them to prior to the start. The only stand out is the Tory party which have been naive, lying, cowardly, indecisive, unprepared, shown a staggering lack of control and foresight and been nothing more than a omnishambles.

Personally I think FG's role has been a surprise. I didn't think I would ever hear a FG Taoiseach stressing that they were the United Ireland party tbh.

LeinsterDub · 12-10-2018 10:51am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Simply wrong. There are so many things that SF do that I do not defend or advocate on here.
They are not universally right. No party is.

Your other thread does not interest me so far. I do contribute to many other threads on all kinds of things. Stop trying to paint a picture of me that serves your agrument, as much as it is an argument and not a personal attack.

Yet discussing the GFA interested you here ? Odd that.