Brexit discussion thread IV

P_1

Angry bird wrote: »

That would be wrong. There's no denying the tribal politics and most vote for their side. The DUP are competing vs the UUP and it pays to have tougher language, slogans and so on. Same on the other side. All aimed at not giving into the other tribe. Nationalists have turned their back on Westminster, they see how unimportant they are in London re Brexit, with a NI secretary who hasn't a clue. Deal or no deal, this genie won't easily be put back in its bottle. Border poll in 10 years.

How do we eliminate the tribal aspect from ni politics?

Should we encourage a home to vote among the progressive people from ni who have fled the madness to Manchester, London, Dublin and Liverpool?

MrMusician18

P_1 wrote: »

How do we eliminate the tribal aspect from ni politics?

Should we encourage a home to vote among the progressive people from ni who have fled the madness to Manchester, London, Dublin and Liverpool?

Encouraging voter fraud is no better than the leave campaigns lies.

It's an issue that needs to be tackled here too before it generates a constitutional crisis, although there are no particularly divisive referendums on the horizon here.

P_1

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Encouraging voter fraud is no better than the leave campaigns lies.

It's an issue that needs to be tackled here too before it generates a constitutional crisis, although there are no particularly divisive referendums on the horizon here.

I'm not too sure. If people leave somewhere for economic or societal reasons they should have a say in how the reasons they left in the first place are resolved. This is likely a debate for elsewhere mind

Angry bird

P_1 wrote: »

How do we eliminate the tribal aspect from ni politics?

Should we encourage a home to vote among the progressive people from ni who have fled the madness to Manchester, London, Dublin and Liverpool?

It'll just have to develop at its own pace over time. The tribes have no problem mixing in work, socially and so, just that the political divide is based on centuries old opposition. Barely one generation on from the GFA, things have moved forward a good bit, obviously there is more to do. Should a situation present itself that saw a boom in NIs economy, the best and brightest will stay, some would be tempted back. Not that different to us lot down south.

P_1

Angry bird wrote: »

It'll just have to develop at its own pace over time. The tribes have no problem mixing in work, socially and so, just that the political divide is based on centuries old opposition. Barely one generation on from the GFA, things have moved forward a good bit, obviously there is more to do. Should a situation present itself that saw a boom in NIs economy, the best and brightest will stay, some would be tempted back. Not that different to us lot down south.

I'm guessing theres no real mainstream appetite for eliminating it on a political scale right now is there? We all saw what happened with NI21

I presume any other non tribal party that attempts to form will be attacked from all sides by those with a vested interest in maintaining the tribal status quo

Angry bird

P_1 wrote: »

I'm guessing theres no real mainstream appetite for eliminating it on a political scale right now is there? We all saw what happened with NI21

I presume any other non tribal party that attempts to form will be attacked from all sides by those with a vested interest in maintaining the tribal status quo

The situation re Brexit could certainly be a catalyst for change or it could reinforce existing dominance of the DUP and SF. But of all the parties there, the DUP has the most to lose. And yes they're prepared to accept economic negatives as long as the union holds. By definition, being unionists means exactly that. It's the equivalent of us possibly rejoining the UK, simply not to be thought about.

FrancieBrady

Angry bird wrote: »

It'll just have to develop at its own pace over time. The tribes have no problem mixing in work, socially and so, just that the political divide is based on centuries old opposition. Barely one generation on from the GFA, things have moved forward a good bit, obviously there is more to do. Should a situation present itself that saw a boom in NIs economy, the best and brightest will stay, some would be tempted back. Not that different to us lot down south.

It won't ever develop past tribal politics because that is what an unnatural partition created. Two tribes concentrated into a small statelet.

There is only one way to fix that. End partition.

LeinsterDub

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Eh, can you reread what I actually said?

'The evidence is there that SF made all the early running....etc etc'

I was referring to your original suggestion before you attempted to move the goal posts. So you admit it's idle speculation based on absolutely nothing. Perhaps you you should make it clearer in the future when you're speculating

FrancieBrady

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I was referring to your original suggestion before you attempted to move the goal posts

Which was speculation/opinion. You don't have to accept it. There is no way to prove or disprove just your opinion on it. And mine is that FG having originally been against special status for northern Ireland had their minds changed.

Don't get so upset because somebody has a contrary opinion to yours.

Angry bird

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It won't ever develop past tribal politics because that is what an unnatural partition created. Two tribes concentrated into a small statelet.

There is only one way to fix that. End partition.

It doesn't need to shift much is all I'm saying. The tribal aspect will remain partition or no partition.

LeinsterDub

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Which was speculation/opinion. You don't have to accept it. There is no way to prove or disprove just your opinion on it. And mine is that FG having originally been against special status for northern Ireland had their minds changed.

Don't get so upset because somebody has a contrary opinion to yours.

I'm most certainly not upset and I've no issue with people offering up an opinion but if you are doing so make it clear it's purely speculation . So the rest of us can ignore it if we want

Angry bird

At some point SF and FG had private discussions. Since then FG and SF have been singing from the same hymn sheet re Brexit with SF content to let FG lead, as the party in government. Theres nothing contriversial about that, it happened. The important point is a united nationalist front that does not leave behind nationalists in NI.

FrancieBrady

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I'm most certainly not upset and I've no issue with people offering up an opinion but if you are doing so make it clear it's purely speculation . So the rest of us can ignore it if we want

Oh I thought I mentioned it was a 'matter of opinion' in the original post. As I said to you before, maybe read the posts properly?

Something changed FG's mind on special status for northern Ireland. Kenny's government absolutely opposed it.
What that was is a matter of opinion I suppose, but given SF have been advocating for it since the UK decided to leave, it is fair to say that they changed FG's mind or led on that issue.

flutered

prawnsambo wrote: »

I don't know if she can survive. She's consistently used the A50 negotiations to try and get a post-brexit trade deal with the EU. Her party (and the press) has gone along with this charade because they all (bar a few) seem to be as dumb as a bucket of hair. Extraordinarily so. As soon as the realisation dawns - and she's been kicking the day of reckoning down the road as far as she can - she has to be gone.

the duperswant her gone, will the tory's agree to that, i kinda doubt it, as they will not want to be seen to be under the cosh from a ni party, or any party for that matter

An Ciarraioch

FrancieBrady wrote: »

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I'm most certainly not upset and I've no issue with people offering up an opinion but if you are doing so make it clear it's purely speculation . So the rest of us can ignore it if we want

Oh I thought I mentioned it was a 'matter of opinion' in the original post. As I said to you before, maybe read the posts properly?

Something changed FG's mind on special status for northern Ireland. Kenny's government absolutely opposed it.
What that was is a matter of opinion I suppose, but given SF have been advocating for it since the UK decided to leave, it is fair to say that they changed FG's mind or led on that issue.

Lancaster House, I would imagine - yes, that was six months before Varadkar took over, but presumably FG continued to pursue the CU route for sometime afterwards, and the backstop was then formulated when the usefulness of the previous approach was exhausted.

LeinsterDub

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Oh I thought I mentioned it was a 'matter of opinion' in the original post. As I said to you before, maybe read the posts properly?

I read that as it's a matter of opinion what changed their mind but it's fair to say (aka true) SF changed their minds. Perhaps I picked you up wrong if so I apologise

J Mysterio

Faisal Islam in Galway today. Impressed with the Governments Brexit preparedness schemes:

https://mobile.twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1050774444740882432

Also, his interview with Coveney at same event:

https://mobile.twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1050793024727474182

judeboy101

"Ireland cannot accept time limit on back stop" Simon says

https://news.sky.com/story/ireland-cannot-accept-brexit-backstop-time-limit-republics-deputy-pm-says-11524506

Water John

Just the mention of Farage by Tubs tonight to the Irish audience in London, set off the boos.

Imreoir2

Latest set of Brexit Preparedness Notices from HMG confirm that the Eurostar service would be at risk of suspension, and that power outages in NI might be a consequence of a no deal Brexit.

judeboy101

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Latest set of Brexit Preparedness Notices from HMG confirm that the Eurostar service would be at risk of suspension, and that power outages in NI might be a consequence of a no deal Brexit.

And Netflix might not get shown .

Imreoir2

judeboy101 wrote: »

And Netflix might not get shown .

Truely the real tragedy of Brexit.

FrancieBrady

judeboy101 wrote: »

"Ireland cannot accept time limit on back stop" Simon says

https://news.sky.com/story/ireland-cannot-accept-brexit-backstop-time-limit-republics-deputy-pm-says-11524506

Good to hear that. I was suspecting Ireland would be forced to rollover on that one. Well said Simon.

LeinsterDub

judeboy101 wrote: »

"Ireland cannot accept time limit on back stop" Simon says

https://news.sky.com/story/ireland-cannot-accept-brexit-backstop-time-limit-republics-deputy-pm-says-11524506

Said Simon speaking exclusively to Sky News from ten months in past. Simon of December 2017 said he was looking forward to Christmas and was sure we could get to stage 2 of the negotiations soon.

murphaph

judeboy101 wrote: »

And Netflix might not get shown .

Well they won't need to worry about that in NI at least, what with having no electricity and all.

On a more serious note I once again find myself wishing there were more Faisal Islams in the UK media.

listermint

Farage making a show on late late as usual

Call me Al

listermint wrote: »

Farage making a show on late late as usual

"Own your **** Nigel!" has to be the most pointed statement so far.

FrancieBrady

Call me Al wrote: »

"Own your **** Nigel!" has to be the most pointed statement so far.

A slagging match hosted by a man afraid of his shadow.

P_1

Angry bird wrote: »

It doesn't need to shift much is all I'm saying. The tribal aspect will remain partition or no partition.

Why though? Its 2018 ffs as humans we should have evolved past that by now

Professor Moriarty

P_1 wrote: »

Why though? Its 2018 ffs as humans we should have evolved past that by now

Absolutely. The sh1te we must endure from the likes of Foster,, Farage and Mogg should never quench our belief in what is true and real.