Brexit discussion thread IV

Seth Brundle

Commons approves New Clause 37
Taxation (Cross-Border Trade) Bill

MPs have approved unanimously New Clause 37 without division.

The clause rules out a border in the Irish Sea.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/uk-politics-parliaments-44849501?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=5b4d078df0f2e1066d52648d%26Commons%20approves%20New%20Clause%2037%26&ns_fee=0#post_5b4d078df0f2e1066d52648d

Leroy42

So does this 36 mean that the great frictionless trade is now resting on whether the rest of the EU agree to act as UK tax collectors?

Taking back control?

trellheim

whoevers negotiating in Brussels for the UK tonight must be saying "right off to the pub"

Thargor

sdanseo wrote: »

I absolutely detest Sinn Féin, but they don't refuse to take their seats because they "can't be arsed".

They should take them however, for the same reconciliatory reasons as McGuinness meeting the Queen, Unionists being allowed in the Seanad and so on. It's one of the points they haven't folded on yet but probably will have to at some point for reasons such as this.

They'll never swear allegiance, there would be civil war in the party, you have to swear an oath to take your seat.

Spanish Eyes

Amazing that a rump of Mogglodytes might actually achieve this impending disaster for UK isn't it?

Spanish Eyes

Now I realise that power and legacy mean a lot to PMs. But honestly if I were TM I would resign tomorrow, and leave the amendment/hard Brexit brigade to it.

I doubt anyone is ready to step up and be responsible for the mess to come, so that could be her revenge.

Oh and by the way, Yvette Cooper should be leader of the Labour Party, she was a cracker earlier in the debate. Such vibrance. But I live in hope that there will EVER be an effective opposition now.

trellheim

Amazing that a rump of Mogglodytes might actually achieve this impending disaster for UK isn't it?

its not a rump; 305 people voted to interfere with the White paper before it got negotiated with the EU

Enzokk

Seth Brundle wrote: »

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/uk-politics-parliaments-44849501?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=5b4d078df0f2e1066d52648d%26Commons%20approves%20New%20Clause%2037%26&ns_fee=0#post_5b4d078df0f2e1066d52648d

Not a surprise that I believe the amendment passed that ruled out a Irish Sea border. No party in their right mind would have voted for dividing up the UK. The ERG played a very smart one here and forced the government in their negotiations it seems.

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Now I realise that power and legacy mean a lot to PMs. But honestly if I were TM I would resign tomorrow, and leave the amendment/hard Brexit brigade to it.

I doubt anyone is ready to step up and be responsible for the mess to come, so that could be her revenge.

Oh and by the way, Yvette Cooper should be leader of the Labour Party, she was a cracker earlier in the debate. Such vibrance. But I live in hope that there will EVER be an effective opposition now.

She will not resign, she has asked for the earlier recess to preserve her time in charge. She is making Brexit harder for herself and the country by tying her hands with the negotiations with the EU, just so she can be on the job a little longer.

What we are also seeing, there aren't a lot of "soft" Brexit Tories. I know a lot of comments were made that the ERG is too small to make a difference, yet they are able to force the hand of the PM on votes and to swing from a soft to hard Brexit. As we can see the rebels aren't enough to fight back but the ERG is enough numbers to lose her votes. Chaos to ensue I suppose.

Anthracite

trellheim wrote: »

If you are all aware that Amdt 37 passed without a division at the end of 36 there.....



Am I in spacecadet land here or are we in new territory now

Click into https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/3f0453f3-e04d-403b-b749-9f0bf005cceb

look at the very end of the division at 21:44:09

Labour totally complicit in the looming disaster.

VinLieger

And we have a resignation, minister for defence is out due to government captilation to the ERG

sdanseo

What an absolute plethora of disillusioned buffoons.

On the bright side, the decidedly downtrodden Rosslare Europort looks a bit more likely to get a bit of investment.

Spanish Eyes

trellheim wrote: »

its not a rump; 305 people voted to interfere with the White paper before it got negotiated with the EU

True, but the proposed amendments means that EU rejection is inevitable now. The noises coming from EU prior to the Mogglodytes amendments was reasonably positive. Now, I don't think so.

But then again the UK can and will blame the Bullies in the EU for rejecting it, and most on the exit side will lap it up.

Mad stuff no matter what way you look at it.

Enzokk

trellheim wrote: »

its not a rump; 305 people voted to interfere with the White paper before it got negotiated with the EU

Nah, its only 62 or so members that is able to scare the PM into their thinking as she is desperate to keep being the leader. You should subtract that from the 326 votes for the government in parliament. What we do see is that the Conservatives will put party before country. They should be careful though, the GOP in the US was fond of doing this since 2008 and they are at a serious risk of being decimated forever if Trump doesn't save himself. He will take the party with him as they enabled him all the way, the same could happen in the UK if you put your own interest ahead of your voters.

J Mysterio

TM officialy now a lame duck.

devnull

J Mysterio wrote: »

TM officialy now a lame duck.

She'll be out later saying nothing has changed and she just listened to her fellow colleagues and that it's still compatible with what was in the white paper.

Enzokk

Anthracite wrote: »

Labour totally complicit in the looming disaster.

You wanted Labour to vote for a border between NI and the rest of the UK?

murphaph

I hope our government steps up our preparations for no deal because these Westminster politicians are insane. Really uncharted territory now.

listermint

Cancel talks.

Let the pound fall.

Let the electorate deal with them.

They can swim in the pool of dirt of their own making.

We are beyond being too polite with this gutter nonsense. Russia is playing the world for fools and the EU are being polite about the whole thing.

murphaph

Enzokk wrote: »

You wanted Labour to vote for a border between NI and the rest of the UK?

It wasn't a vote on that. NI is already a special case within the UK with phytosanitary checks on various goods ex-GB.

They have now not only hijacked the plane but also killed the pilots.

ArmaniJeanss

Anthracite wrote: »

Labour totally complicit in the looming disaster.

I'd guess they agreed no actual vote on this as there was no prospect of it being rejected - little point in wasting 10 minutes of everyone's time for a 420-180 vote.
So hardly complicit really.

The outcome of the night stood or fell on the amendment which got passed 305-302.

murphaph

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I'd guess they agreed no actual vote on this as there was no prospect of it being rejected - little point in wasting 10 minutes of everyone's time for a 420-180 vote.
So hardly complicit really.

The outcome of the night stood or fell on the amendment which got passed 305-302.

This parliamentary Labour party will go down in history as aiding and abetting this farce. I blame parliament. It is sovereign. It does not have to go along with this massive act of self harm.

ArmaniJeanss

From the guardian.

14 Tories voted against 36.
Heidi Allen
Guto Bebb
Rochard Benyon
Ken Clarke
Jonathan Djanogly
Domonic Grieve
Stephen Hammond
Phillip Lee
Nicky Morgan
Robert Neill
Mark Pawsey
Antoinette Sandbach
Anna Soubry
Sarah Wollaston

3 Labour (+1 currently suspended) voted with the proposition.
Frank Field
Kate Hoey
Graham Stringer
Kelvin Hopkins (curr susp)

Anthracite

Enzokk wrote: »

You wanted Labour to vote for a border between NI and the rest of the UK?

Yes. I did. Is that strange?

Infini

listermint wrote: »

Cancel talks.

Let the pound fall.

Let the electorate deal with them.

They can swim in the pool of sort of their own making.

We are beyond being too polite with this gutter nonsense. Russia is playing the world for fools and the EU are being polite about the whole thing.

Honestly their stupidity is on a whole different level right now. Think it has to be realistically said that these fools need a serious reality check and the EU could easily dump one on them by saying negotiations will fail under the current conditions and that everyone should expect a hard disorderly Brexit. There's no point in negotiating with idiot's if they're determined to ruin themselves the EU should stand back and let these gobshítes burn themselves to the ground.

Come March 29th the Doom Ron Paul meme's are gonna shoot through the roof again.

trellheim

Now off to the Lords I would say//// yep 318 to 285 off to the Lords and folks lets not forget we have the Trade bill tomorrow so BOHICA applies

Enzokk

murphaph wrote: »

It wasn't a vote on that. NI is already a special case within the UK with phytosanitary checks on various goods ex-GB.

They have now not only hijacked the plane but also killed the pilots.

I know, but did you see the debate about it? The debate was about keeping the UK together and not putting a border between NI and the rest of the UK. By putting it to a vote there was no way any politician was ever going to vote for it when the government was against it. Its about the optics of the vote and how the other side could use it, hence there was no way Labour was going to oppose it once Theresa May indicated she would support it. Had she stood up against it, it would have been opposed but then there is 40 odd letters ready to challenge her as a leader, and while the party may not be for hard Brexit, those letters are enough to burn down the house.

Imreoir2

As I understand it, there is now no posibility of a Brexit deal. Preparation for a no-deal Brexit should now become a national priority.

Spanish Eyes

Three Labour and one former Lab voted with the Government FYI.

Frank Field
Kate Hoey
Kelvin Hopkins (suspended from Labour still I think)
Graham Stringer

Edit, have just seen Armani's post above with the same info.

An Ciarraioch

The seven SF MPs would have tipped the balance.

trellheim

Kate Hoey

The Northern Ireland High Jump Champion and person who called the GFA unsustainable

Dont' believe me ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kate_Hoey

Enzokk

Anthracite wrote: »

Yes. I did. Is that strange?

For our sake I wanted that as well, but the SNP also didn't oppose it either. Why do you think that is?

devnull

According to Sky the Tory rebels who voted against the government were:
Heidi Allen, Guto Bebb (who resigned from government in order to vote against the amendment), Richard Benyon, Ken Clarke, Jonathan Djanogly, Dominic Grieve, Stepehn Hammond, Phillip Lee, Nicky Morgan, Robert Neill, Mark Pawsey, Antoinette Sandbach, Anna Soubry and Sarah Wollaston.

However there were three Labour Brexiteers who voted for all the amendments, without which none of the votes would have passed and the government would have been defeated.

Anthracite

Enzokk wrote: »

For our sake I wanted that as well, but the SNP also didn't oppose it either. Why do you think that is?

I'm going to say 'stupidity and short-termism'.

This is a bit like our bank bailout - if FG had the cojones to vote against it as the lunacy it was, they would have been ridiculed in the short term, but would have won a lot of respect when it all came crashing down. People couldn't say 'they are all the same' - FG could point at how they saw the disaster coming and voted against.

Nody

murphaph wrote: »

I hope our government steps up our preparations for no deal because these Westminster politicians are insane. Really uncharted territory now.

EU sent a memo to all governments after May's white paper was released urging them to step up preparations for a crash out; EU leadership and admin knows full well were things are heading but can't speak of it openly as it would be considered interfering in national politics to do so.

Imreoir2

It seems May thought she chould not get a deal including the backstop through Parliament so has decided to collapse talks instead.

ArmaniJeanss

Vince Cable & Tim Farron not there for the vote apparently.
A few here often have the Lib Dems down as the great hope.

Enzokk

Anthracite wrote: »

I'm going to say 'stupidity and short-termism'.

This is a bit like our bank bailout - if FG had the cojones to vote against it as the lunacy it was, they would have been ridiculed in the short term, but would have won a lot of respect when it all came crashing down. People couldn't say 'they are all the same' - FG could point at how they saw the disaster coming and voted against.

As I said, once the government signaled they were not going to oppose the amendment the hands of all other parties were tied. The optics of the amendment and not supporting it is you are voting to put up a border in the UK. The Conservatives were making a huge deal of keeping the UK together during the debate and preserving the union. It had nothing to do with the GFA and what's best for NI, it was about keeping the UK as one. I agree with you that it is disappointing that Labour didn't oppose it, but they were not going to win that vote as its not the amendment that the rebels would vote with them so it just would have looked like they wanted to break up the UK.

Fair play to the ERG, they have the PM by the throat and will now do what they please.

murphaph

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Vince Cable & Tim Farron not there for the vote apparently.
A few here often have the Lib Dems down as the great hope.

Do they do that vote cancelling thing in Westminster where a pair of opposing voters abstain? If not then it's a dereliction of duty by the few dozen MPs who didn't show this evening.

Enzokk

Imreoir2 wrote: »

It seems May thought she chould not get a deal including the backstop through Parliament so has decided to collapse talks instead.

I think she can get a deal through with cross party support, her problem is that the ERG can challenge her leadership. They cannot change votes, but they can remove her. We saw today what she values more and its her job and not the path of the country she set out a week ago.

lawred2

It's time now to just let these lads talk amongst themselves and get on with hard Brexit preparations.

Their rampant disregard for the destabilisation of Ireland and Europe is shameful.

listermint

Enzokk wrote: »

As I said, once the government signaled they were not going to oppose the amendment the hands of all other parties were tied. The optics of the amendment and not supporting it is you are voting to put up a border in the UK. The Conservatives were making a huge deal of keeping the UK together during the debate and preserving the union. It had nothing to do with the GFA and what's best for NI, it was about keeping the UK as one. I agree with you that it is disappointing that Labour didn't oppose it, but they were not going to win that vote as its not the amendment that the rebels would vote with them so it just would have looked like they wanted to break up the UK.

Fair play to the ERG, they have the PM by the throat and will now do what they please.

Fair play.. not exactly the meaning of the word in context.


The EU now have to verbally and visibly cancel talks as the current arrangement conflicts with December agreement.

Let the markets deal with the UK and their currency.

This has to be hard and fast and while the government have taken a holiday. Really get the message across

Infini

Nody wrote: »

EU sent a memo to all governments after May's white paper was released urging them to step up preparations for a crash out; EU leadership and admin knows full well were things are heading but can't speak of it openly as it would be considered interfering in national politics to do so.

At this point it's only a matter of time before talks are declared a failure and it becomes all but certain that these talks are going to fail. I think as much as people might want to put it off it might be better to bite the bullet and say there's nothing left to negotiate without sorting the Irish Border out. You cant reason with idiot's they're the salt of the fúcking earth IMO and the only way to make them learn is through letting them screw up on their own and laughing at their failure afterwards.

There's no curing this level of ignorant stupidity so if they want to crash out and not negotiate seriously then the EU should stand back, make firm warnings that they're expecting a hard brexit due to being unable to get a coherent negotiating plan from the British and let the corroding effect's of reality bite them for a bit, do it now while there's a chance of them coming to their sense's but make it clear if they crash out on March 29th then the EU gave them every oppertunity for an out for this but we can't help them if they're unable to even sort out their own affairs.

Bigus

TM knew the white paper wasn't going to hack it with the EU , so now she can blame the ERG, maybe there's logic in there somewhere ? Maybe not .

Imreoir2

listermint wrote: »

Fair play.. not exactly the meaning of the word in context.


The EU now have to verbally and visibly cancel talks as the current arrangement conflicts with December agreement.

Let the markets deal with the UK and their currency.

This has to be hard and fast and while the government have taken a holiday. Really get the message across

Certainly there needs to be a strong condemnation from the EU and Irish government of the UK's bad faith in these talks by walking away from its commitments made last December and again in March.

Talks should now be suspended as long as the UK rules out a necessary part of the withdrawl treaty.

lawred2

listermint wrote: »

Fair play.. not exactly the meaning of the word in context.


The EU now have to verbally and visibly cancel talks as the current arrangement conflicts with December agreement.

Let the markets deal with the UK and their currency.

This has to be hard and fast and while the government have taken a holiday. Really get the message across

Yeah the response should be swift, there is nothing here to work with, the UK has renagued on previous promises. There can now be no deal on this basis.

The EUs response to this will be interesting.

Enzokk

listermint wrote: »

Fair play.. not exactly the meaning of the word in context.


The EU now have to verbally and visibly cancel talks as the current arrangement conflicts with December agreement.

Let the markets deal with the UK and their currency.

This has to be hard and fast and while the government have taken a holiday. Really get the message across

I mean they had a chance to exert their influence and they have taken it. They have won the battle for control. They have been clear on what they want from Brexit from the start and they have not deviated from it. It was up to Theresa May to stand up to them but they called her bluff. She could have tied one of the votes to a confidence in government and the ERG could have forced a general election where a lot of their colleagues would have lost their jobs. She folded and they stayed in the hand (to use a poker analogy), they have won the pot.

Spanish Eyes

I hope Leo and co. are shortening their Summer Recess and getting all Government Departments to work like billyo in prep for minimising the effects of Hard Brexit on us.

I hope the EU will extend funds to us if we need it too. Let them put their money where their mouths are on this, it is critical for us.

Honestly it is very depressing.

sdanseo

The border issue is impossible, essentially, to resolve with these developments as I understand it.

Therefore time for Leo to get tough. He doesn't have it in him, but he needs to do it anyway. He and the EU need to shut the door on these bastards and leave them out in the cold.

When a euro is worth more than a Great British Punt maybe they'll start thinking about the ramifications of their actions.

kowtow

This is all about the backstop, I've never been convinced that the UK signed up to it expecting it to be required when the time eventually came. They always expected a more constructive approach - the one characterized here as a fantasy / technology solution - as something which if the political will existed could be put in place for the special and limited circumstances represented by the NI border.

As one commentator pointed out tonight, if - as appears more likely - a hard brexit is the outcome the last thing the British will be doing is putting a hard border in Ireland. Neither, one expects, will we in the South wish to be the architects of one.

So sooner or later, whatever the rights and wrongs of it, we may end up with all the consequences of a hard Brexit for this Island, including a hard EU mandated border, which some will say is a direct consequence of the negotiating position taken by the EU.

lawred2

Has the UK government now not effectively abandoned the GFA as well?